Just read Koran/Quran: Some murderous, pedophilia scriptures.

[Syriusly]

Been reading a little at a time. English translated version. A few notes. Enjoy the religion of peace:

koran 8:12 Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.
.

Wow- not even close- God was speaking to angels......I am really curious now why you went to this effort to lie about the Koran.

And the Lord said to the angels: "I am with you; go and strengthen the faithful. I shall fill the hearts of infidels with terror. So smite them on their necks and every joint, (and incapacitate them),"
Ali Qarai
Then your Lord signaled to the angels: ‘I am indeed with you; so steady the faithful. I will cast terror into the hearts of the faithless. So strike their necks, and strike their every limb joint!’
Amhad Khan
And when O dear Prophet, your Lord was inspiring the angels that, “I am with you – so make the believers stand firm; I will soon instil fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, so strike above the disbelievers’ necks and hit their each and every bone joint.”

Here is another of Buc's 'summaries'- and then the translations:


Buc: koran 8:12 Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.
.
Wow- not even close- God was speaking to angels......I am really curious now why you went to this effort to lie about the Koran.

And the Lord said to the angels: "I am with you; go and strengthen the faithful. I shall fill the hearts of infidels with terror. So smite them on their necks and every joint, (and incapacitate them),"
Ali Qarai
Then your Lord signaled to the angels: ‘I am indeed with you; so steady the faithful. I will cast terror into the hearts of the faithless. So strike their necks, and strike their every limb joint!’
Amhad Khan
And when O dear Prophet, your Lord was inspiring the angels that, “I am with you – so make the believers stand firm; I will soon instil fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, so strike above the disbelievers’ necks and hit their each and every bone joint.”

 

[Coyote]

Been reading a little at a time. English translated version. A few notes. Enjoy the religion of peace:

You are such a faker. You haven't been "reading a little at a time" - you just copied this straight off the internet word for word. M Steven Gronka - Murder, homosexual and heterosexual... | Facebook

While some of the "translations" are accurate, others are leave out a great deal of context or mitigating portions of the quote.

For example:

koran 47:4 Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.

The context here is refering to meeting in battle or fighting so this "translation" is pretty misleading and leaves out a good bit and says nothing about "do not hanker for peace".

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.​

koran 2:191 Slay unbelievers wherever you find them.
Another one missing a whole lot of important info...The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

The translation is:
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

But the historical context is: The Quran on War, peace and Justice

This emigration, known as the Hijrah, marked the beginning of an Islamic society in Madinah, in which the Prophet became the head of the state. It was not long before the polytheists of Makkah marched towards Madinah to wage war against Muslims and destroy the Islamic state of Madinah. This battle is known as the Battle of Badr. The verses 2.190-2.194, above were perhaps the first injunctions from God to Muslims to prepare themselves for fighting. It was obviously a war in the defense of their homeland and their Faith.

In verse 2.190, God instructs Muslims to fight back, but not to transgress, and remain just even during the battle. "They are told that material interests should not be the motivation for their fighting, that they should not take up arms against those were not in opposition to the true faith, that they should not resort to unscrupulous methods or to the indiscriminate killing and pillage which characterized the other wars. The excesses alluded to in this verse are acts such as taking up arms against women and children, the old and the injured, mutilation of the dead bodies of the enemy, uncalled for devastation through the destruction of fields and livestock, and other similar acts of injustice and brutality.

The Prophet prohibited all these acts. The real intent of the verse is to stress that force should be used only when its use is unavoidable, and only to the extent that is absolutely necessary." (see note 201, page 151, Towards Understanding the Quran, Volume 1)

Like cherry picking quotes from the bible - historical context is important.

koran 22:19 Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.

Sort of...but really, more standard religious rhetoric as can be found in the Bible - The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
These are two adversaries who have disputed over their Lord. But those who disbelieved will have cut out for them garments of fire. Poured upon their heads will be scalding water

koran 9:5 When opportunity arises kill the infidels wherever you catch them.
Again - misleading.

Here's the quote: The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The context is from early in the history, when they were fighting the polytheists (pagans) who had persecuted them.g

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.
Umh..no...not exactly - in all the translations, it's "make war on Islam", not anywhere is it criticize.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,​

koran 9:123 Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.
This one is ok...

9:123 "O you who believe, fight those of the unbelievers near you and let them see how harsh you can be. Know that Allah is with the righteous."
and it mirrors and earlier one - ah, the wondeful tolerance of religions...
9:73 "O Prophet, fight the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be stern with them. Their abode is Hell, and what a terrible fate!"

koran 8:60 Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.
This one two, is a dishonest "translation" - here's what it actually says: The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.​

koran 8:65 The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.
From the same source as above, which includes multiple translation sources:

O Prophet, urge the believers to battle. If there are among you twenty [who are] steadfast, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are among you one hundred [who are] steadfast, they will overcome a thousand of those who have disbelieved because they are a people who do not understand.​

Essentially, God is telling them that even though they may be few in number, their "belief" will strengthen them. One translation sites "intellegence" the rest "understanding" - just standard religious warfare rhetoric of believers vs unbelievers. So this one is pretty accurate.


Next time, don't plagiarize and pretend you've been reading something you haven't. It's misleading to take cherry pick religious scripture - of any kind and present in a vacuum. It's done all the time with biblical verse and you all scream "context" and "it doesn't really mean this".

Here (Evil Bible Quotes) you can find many similar quotes relating to the bible and like yours, just as disengeniously represented - enjoy. At least I did a little more reading to reply than you did for your OP.

But when you use context with Koran 8:60 (for instance) and understand the previous instructions were to destroy infidels "as enemies of Allah" --- then the brief summary in the OP is NOT that far off -- is it???

Especially if you're one of the 10 or 15% that believe you're still in the 1500s and interpret these phrases as literally as our troops interpret "terms of engagement" for war.. And that's the issue really. Literal interpretation of scripture by militant Jihadists.

If you are an extremist, or a fundamentalist and you take all things literally - or SELECTIVELY literally, then yes - you could interpret it that way and I'm sure some do.

But I disagree that that's "the issue" - the "issue" of the OP has nothing to do with extremists or how extremists interpret it.

 

[Coyote]

Let's see, Mohammad married A'isha when she was 6, consummated the marriage when she was 9. He was 53.

Hmmm this seems to me to say more about you- than the Koran.

Here is that verse from the Koran.

What is it about 'serving boys' that makes you think "pedophilia"
Ahmad Ali
And boys of everlasting youth will go about attending them. Looking at them you would think that they were pearls dispersed.
Ali Qarai
They will be waited upon by immortal youths, whom, were you to see them, you will suppose them to be scattered pearls.
Amhad Khan
Immortal youths shall surround them, waiting upon them; when you see them, you would think they are scattered pearls.
Arberry
Immortal youths shall go about them; when thou seest them, thou supposest them scattered pearls,
Corpus
And will circulate among them young boys made eternal. When you see them, you would think them (to be) pearls scattered.
Daryabadi
And there shall go round Unto them youths ever-young. When thou seest them thou wouldst deem them pearls unstrung.
Hilali & Khan
And round about them will (serve) boys of everlasting youth. If you see them, you would think them scattered pearls.
Pickthall
There wait on them immortal youths, whom, when thou seest, thou wouldst take for scattered pearls.

And that excuses Buca lying about the Koran?

There are a few that might not be accurate -- but on the WHOLE -- there's a lot of baggage there.
For instance ---

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

And what is being done here is for you to give a RANGE of interpretations -- rather than the literal translations. Like in some kind of Koran for Dummies. Rather -- I would be swayed more by what it actually says -- and THEN read 6 or 8 different interpretations. .

I've looked up 6 or 8 given the source above -- and those summaries are fairly accurate.

***** HOWEVER -- I do sympathize when antagonistic people come in fresh with boosted quotes about what appears in your religion to be embarrassing or obnoxious quotes without understanding the times and circumstances in which they were written ----- OR the context and definitions of the terms..

The danger is ALWAYS -- in any scripture driven religion -- that some demented zealots will take a literal translation and try to move the clock BACK by a couple millenia.. And THAT is the current problem with about 15% to 25% of practicing Muslims worldwide..

Well- I not only looked up the links- I copied and pasted one or more of the translations. You didn't dispute any of my translations- nor provide a quotation of any of Buc's claims that refuted mine.

Frankly not one of the summaries he made was accurate.

I agree with you- there is always a danger that people will abuse scriptures of any kind- that has happened throughout history.

But there are also those like Buc- who abuse scriptures as he did in the OP- to deliberately mislead about what those scriptures said.

I have seen this done to attack Jews, I have seen this done to attack Christians, and in this case, it is done to attack Muslims.

We agree on how this scripture interpretation is used as weapon by folks with pre-conceived notions about ANY religion.. But I disagree about the accuracy of the summaries given in the OP. Out of 6 or 8 that I checked. I found one that was a total head-scratcher, and another that's being interpreted in some (maybe devious) fashion. But the others were Totally acceptable face-value summaries..

In the Old Testament -- it was largely God making the threats and taking the vengeance. I find that the Koran reads more like a military guidebook for rules of engagement and conflict. At least -- the danger is -- it's easier to LITERALLY interpret it that way. There is virtually no tolerance or forgiveness for non-believers -- call them infidels or whatever you want. And they are assumed guilty of offending Allah by virtue that they are not pledged to his loyalty.. Hard to suppress that much baggage. And I'd LOVE to know how the 85% of "peaceful" Muslims find it acceptable to ignore all that...

Is there really virtually "no tolerance" or are we relying on popular media to tell us that?

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors" (2:190) In addition, when the enemy inclines toward peace, Muslims are commanded to cease hostilities: "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace" (8:61). The guiding principle of Islam with respect to non-Muslims is one of tolerance and mutual respect, plain and simple: "God does not forbid you from dealing kindly and justly with those who do not fight you for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes: for God loveth those who are just." (60:8)​

Does the Koran Advocate Violence? - (an interesting article becaused further on it also shows how extremists can pick the passages that suit their desire for violence)

In Christianity and Islam, as in all religions, how followers choose to practice their beliefs is based on their interpretation and acceptance of Holy Scripture. Many passages in all forms of religious texts are outdated and are considered criminal if carried out in today's time, but are still discussed as part of the faith.

Father Dan Madigan, a professor of theology at Georgetown University, pointed out that these passages are recited every day in the Christian faith, and yet thousands of clergy members remain at peace.

"Imagine how many monks and nuns around the world chant the Psalms every day," he said. "In the Psalms, there are some really awful versus about smashing babies heads against rocks, but they chant them and it doesn't make them violent."

He noted the double standard many put on the Koran. "We have a way of dealing with our scriptures as they are and Muslims are in the same position."

The Old Testament is filled with tales of divinely-ordained slaughter and war, yet about two billion Christians today follow the word of the Lord, coupled with the New Testament, which includes a command from Jesus to "love thy neighbor as you love thyself."

Muslims also face a similar dichotomy of ideas in the Koran, from maintaining peace to raging war. In one part, the scripture says there is "no coercion in matters of faith." In another, the Koran tells Muslims to "fight those who believe not in Allah."...

...While some fundamentalist Muslims may declare they follow Muhammad's instructions to "fight the infidels," moderate scholars argue the infidels he was referring to have been dead for 1,300 years.

"'Infidel' in the Koran is not just a noun or an adjective, it is the word that the Koran uses to describe explicitly and exclusively the Meccan aristocracy with which the Muslim community was at war with," explained Dr. Reza Aslan, a Muslim scholar and author of several books on the Middle East.

Father Dan Madigan also pointed out the key passage that follows the "fight the infidels" line that many radical Islamists often ignore or don't know it exists.

"The verse immediately after it says, 'If any of the unbelievers asks you for sanctuary, then take them into your houses so that they might hear the word of God and then let them go on their way,'" he said.

On the other hand, another Muslim scholar stated that of the more than 6,000 verses of the Koran, 109 call for war against enemies of the faith.
​

 

[flacaltenn]

There are a few that might not be accurate -- but on the WHOLE -- there's a lot of baggage there.
For instance ---

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

And what is being done here is for you to give a RANGE of interpretations -- rather than the literal translations. Like in some kind of Koran for Dummies. Rather -- I would be swayed more by what it actually says -- and THEN read 6 or 8 different interpretations. .

I've looked up 6 or 8 given the source above -- and those summaries are fairly accurate.

***** HOWEVER -- I do sympathize when antagonistic people come in fresh with boosted quotes about what appears in your religion to be embarrassing or obnoxious quotes without understanding the times and circumstances in which they were written ----- OR the context and definitions of the terms..

The danger is ALWAYS -- in any scripture driven religion -- that some demented zealots will take a literal translation and try to move the clock BACK by a couple millenia.. And THAT is the current problem with about 15% to 25% of practicing Muslims worldwide..

Well- I not only looked up the links- I copied and pasted one or more of the translations. You didn't dispute any of my translations- nor provide a quotation of any of Buc's claims that refuted mine.

Frankly not one of the summaries he made was accurate.

I agree with you- there is always a danger that people will abuse scriptures of any kind- that has happened throughout history.

But there are also those like Buc- who abuse scriptures as he did in the OP- to deliberately mislead about what those scriptures said.

I have seen this done to attack Jews, I have seen this done to attack Christians, and in this case, it is done to attack Muslims.

In the Old Testament -- it was largely God making the threats and taking the vengeance. I find that the Koran reads more like a military guidebook for rules of engagement and conflict. At least -- the danger is -- it's easier to LITERALLY interpret it that way. There is virtually no tolerance or forgiveness for non-believers -- call them infidels or whatever you want..

But I just posted a quote which says otherwise

Speaking of context- what about 8:61?

Sahih International: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Pickthall: And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.

Yusuf Ali: But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

Shakir: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Muhammad Sarwar: If they (the unbelievers) propose peace, accept it and trust in God. God is All-hearing and All-knowing.

And how does the Koran refer to Jews and Christians?


Why does the Quran refer to Jews and Christians as kufar, or infidels? What kind of respect and tolerance is that?
The translation of the word kafir as infidel is a grave error. The word infidel means someone who does not believe in God. The Qur’an does not allege that Jews and Christians do not believe in God. On the contrary the Qur’an refers to Jews and Christians respectfully as “People of the Book” and says:

“And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”

[Al-Qur’an 29:46]

Let's focus on ONE --- before we try to "debunk" any others. And my first post gave a literal translation of 5:33 for which the OP summary is entirely adequate. That's why Charlie Hebdot was targeted in Paris. Is it not???

Well before you joined this thread- I had 'debunked' several- and you haven't responded to any of those posts. The first post I see from you is #85, and I don't see a mention of 5.33- perhaps that was your link?

I don't agree that the summary is 'entirely adequate'


What Buc said:

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.



Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

Sorry there Syrius -- but we must not be reading the same things. Because the OP IS entirely adequate as a summary of what I see there with a bit of context..

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

Seems the Koran strives for a one-note purified environment to sustain Islam. And some of these verses are ammunition for the Jihadists. Pretty clear to me ......

 

[flacaltenn]

Let's see, Mohammad married A'isha when she was 6, consummated the marriage when she was 9. He was 53.

And that excuses Buca lying about the Koran?

There are a few that might not be accurate -- but on the WHOLE -- there's a lot of baggage there.
For instance ---

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

And what is being done here is for you to give a RANGE of interpretations -- rather than the literal translations. Like in some kind of Koran for Dummies. Rather -- I would be swayed more by what it actually says -- and THEN read 6 or 8 different interpretations. .

I've looked up 6 or 8 given the source above -- and those summaries are fairly accurate.

***** HOWEVER -- I do sympathize when antagonistic people come in fresh with boosted quotes about what appears in your religion to be embarrassing or obnoxious quotes without understanding the times and circumstances in which they were written ----- OR the context and definitions of the terms..

The danger is ALWAYS -- in any scripture driven religion -- that some demented zealots will take a literal translation and try to move the clock BACK by a couple millenia.. And THAT is the current problem with about 15% to 25% of practicing Muslims worldwide..

Well- I not only looked up the links- I copied and pasted one or more of the translations. You didn't dispute any of my translations- nor provide a quotation of any of Buc's claims that refuted mine.

Frankly not one of the summaries he made was accurate.

I agree with you- there is always a danger that people will abuse scriptures of any kind- that has happened throughout history.

But there are also those like Buc- who abuse scriptures as he did in the OP- to deliberately mislead about what those scriptures said.

I have seen this done to attack Jews, I have seen this done to attack Christians, and in this case, it is done to attack Muslims.

We agree on how this scripture interpretation is used as weapon by folks with pre-conceived notions about ANY religion.. But I disagree about the accuracy of the summaries given in the OP. Out of 6 or 8 that I checked. I found one that was a total head-scratcher, and another that's being interpreted in some (maybe devious) fashion. But the others were Totally acceptable face-value summaries..

In the Old Testament -- it was largely God making the threats and taking the vengeance. I find that the Koran reads more like a military guidebook for rules of engagement and conflict. At least -- the danger is -- it's easier to LITERALLY interpret it that way. There is virtually no tolerance or forgiveness for non-believers -- call them infidels or whatever you want. And they are assumed guilty of offending Allah by virtue that they are not pledged to his loyalty.. Hard to suppress that much baggage. And I'd LOVE to know how the 85% of "peaceful" Muslims find it acceptable to ignore all that...

Is there really virtually "no tolerance" or are we relying on popular media to tell us that?

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors" (2:190) In addition, when the enemy inclines toward peace, Muslims are commanded to cease hostilities: "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace" (8:61). The guiding principle of Islam with respect to non-Muslims is one of tolerance and mutual respect, plain and simple: "God does not forbid you from dealing kindly and justly with those who do not fight you for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes: for God loveth those who are just." (60:8)​

Does the Koran Advocate Violence? - (an interesting article becaused further on it also shows how extremists can pick the passages that suit their desire for violence)

In Christianity and Islam, as in all religions, how followers choose to practice their beliefs is based on their interpretation and acceptance of Holy Scripture. Many passages in all forms of religious texts are outdated and are considered criminal if carried out in today's time, but are still discussed as part of the faith.

Father Dan Madigan, a professor of theology at Georgetown University, pointed out that these passages are recited every day in the Christian faith, and yet thousands of clergy members remain at peace.

"Imagine how many monks and nuns around the world chant the Psalms every day," he said. "In the Psalms, there are some really awful versus about smashing babies heads against rocks, but they chant them and it doesn't make them violent."

He noted the double standard many put on the Koran. "We have a way of dealing with our scriptures as they are and Muslims are in the same position."

The Old Testament is filled with tales of divinely-ordained slaughter and war, yet about two billion Christians today follow the word of the Lord, coupled with the New Testament, which includes a command from Jesus to "love thy neighbor as you love thyself."

Muslims also face a similar dichotomy of ideas in the Koran, from maintaining peace to raging war. In one part, the scripture says there is "no coercion in matters of faith." In another, the Koran tells Muslims to "fight those who believe not in Allah."...

...While some fundamentalist Muslims may declare they follow Muhammad's instructions to "fight the infidels," moderate scholars argue the infidels he was referring to have been dead for 1,300 years.

"'Infidel' in the Koran is not just a noun or an adjective, it is the word that the Koran uses to describe explicitly and exclusively the Meccan aristocracy with which the Muslim community was at war with," explained Dr. Reza Aslan, a Muslim scholar and author of several books on the Middle East.

Father Dan Madigan also pointed out the key passage that follows the "fight the infidels" line that many radical Islamists often ignore or don't know it exists.

"The verse immediately after it says, 'If any of the unbelievers asks you for sanctuary, then take them into your houses so that they might hear the word of God and then let them go on their way,'" he said.

On the other hand, another Muslim scholar stated that of the more than 6,000 verses of the Koran, 109 call for war against enemies of the faith.
​

Let's get rid of the "dashing babies against rocks" and then we'll be able to agree on some important points...

Remember, O LORD, against the sons of Edom The day of Jerusalem, Who said, "Raze it, raze it To its very foundation." 8O daughter of Babylon, you devastated one, How blessed will be the one who repays you With the recompense with which you have repaid us.9How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock.

What you have there is a repetition of what the Babylonians had already done to Jewish women and children.. Acts which had already been done. As literary license --- the Psalm in question and the Prophets Hosea et al, were merely sizing up the proper scope of revenge. God wasn't REQUIRING them to go those lengths,, these were words of men.. As the Old Test. prophets did not have the divinity or protected status of the likes of Mohammed...

That's why no Jewish or Christian fundies are freaking out about making this a generalized tactic against enemies. And it appears to me, that Mohammed saw and was paranoid about FAR more enemies,, than are mentioned in the Old Testament. .And the Koran goes a lot farther in declaring GENERALIZED threats, nuisances and enemies of Islam.

Now I understand IT'S POSSIBLE for most Muslims to equivocate away the calls to fight infidels. Like the one selected phrase in your quote above "... if they ask for sanctuary... " That's essentially if they surrender their slights and offenses against Islam -- which is essentially surrendering to will of Allah.. Although I will memorize "the sanctuary clause " and quote it to the next AK-47 wielding Jihadist that has me in his/her sights at a shopping mall.. I DOUBT it would have made a whit of difference to folks at Charlie Hebdot or the Christians beheaded on that Syrian beach..

So ---the MAJORITY of Muslims overlook the 109 passages that are essentially military rules of engagement and peacefully practice the faith. And it's not fair to ding the Koran for references of what NOW is considered pedophilia the world over -- since most of those are also part of the judeo-Chistian scriptures.

I find it interesting that 109 out of 6000 verses roughly gives the same 18% percentage of Muslims who take a dangerous fundamental interpretation of Koran to extremes. And I clearly see the basis for their rightful interpretations. And arguing that they are not "True Muslims" is a pretty weak defense for discriminating between "good and bad" Muslims.. That's not something that a lay infidel like me could ever do.. But I see our Prez PRETENDING that HE knows the differrence. Must know a carload more than me about the Koran..

Most folks can only take it "on faith" that there IS such a thing as studied peaceful Muslim worship...

 

[flacaltenn]

Been reading a little at a time. English translated version. A few notes. Enjoy the religion of peace:

koran 8:12 Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.
.

Wow- not even close- God was speaking to angels......I am really curious now why you went to this effort to lie about the Koran.

And the Lord said to the angels: "I am with you; go and strengthen the faithful. I shall fill the hearts of infidels with terror. So smite them on their necks and every joint, (and incapacitate them),"
Ali Qarai
Then your Lord signaled to the angels: ‘I am indeed with you; so steady the faithful. I will cast terror into the hearts of the faithless. So strike their necks, and strike their every limb joint!’
Amhad Khan
And when O dear Prophet, your Lord was inspiring the angels that, “I am with you – so make the believers stand firm; I will soon instil fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, so strike above the disbelievers’ necks and hit their each and every bone joint.”

Here is another of Buc's 'summaries'- and then the translations:


Buc: koran 8:12 Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.
.
Wow- not even close- God was speaking to angels......I am really curious now why you went to this effort to lie about the Koran.

And the Lord said to the angels: "I am with you; go and strengthen the faithful. I shall fill the hearts of infidels with terror. So smite them on their necks and every joint, (and incapacitate them),"
Ali Qarai
Then your Lord signaled to the angels: ‘I am indeed with you; so steady the faithful. I will cast terror into the hearts of the faithless. So strike their necks, and strike their every limb joint!’
Amhad Khan
And when O dear Prophet, your Lord was inspiring the angels that, “I am with you – so make the believers stand firm; I will soon instil fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, so strike above the disbelievers’ necks and hit their each and every bone joint.”

Can't express how relieved I am to hear that Allah was only commanding Angels to do the things accurately summarized in the OP.. So I only have to fear Real Angels or Jihadists with swords who have an "an angel complex".....

Now you're picking nits about existential existence of angels. A topic EASILY demagogue by a more "adamant" interpretation of scripture.. I might point out here --- that I'm SHOCKED that these various "interpretations" I see of the Koran are as INACCURATE as they are. Because for the life of me I can't see how there's confusion between finger and toes and "every limb joint" .. Or as OTHER interpretations have it --

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

----- only their fingertips.. I SENSE there is more here than the diff between King James and a Jewish OIld Testament. Although in that case.. the translation from Aramaic might be to blame..

Which brings up another point. We are NOT SEEING the interpretations of these verses that come directly from the sources of evil Islam.. Like a solid Wahabist translation or even a more favored Taliban interpretation.. Which is why my ability to JUDGE the accuracy of any verse summarized is limited..

 

[flacaltenn]

Been reading a little at a time. English translated version. A few notes. Enjoy the religion of peace:

You are such a faker. You haven't been "reading a little at a time" - you just copied this straight off the internet word for word. M Steven Gronka - Murder, homosexual and heterosexual... | Facebook

While some of the "translations" are accurate, others are leave out a great deal of context or mitigating portions of the quote.

For example:

koran 47:4 Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.

The context here is refering to meeting in battle or fighting so this "translation" is pretty misleading and leaves out a good bit and says nothing about "do not hanker for peace".

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.​

koran 2:191 Slay unbelievers wherever you find them.
Another one missing a whole lot of important info...The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

The translation is:
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

But the historical context is: The Quran on War, peace and Justice

This emigration, known as the Hijrah, marked the beginning of an Islamic society in Madinah, in which the Prophet became the head of the state. It was not long before the polytheists of Makkah marched towards Madinah to wage war against Muslims and destroy the Islamic state of Madinah. This battle is known as the Battle of Badr. The verses 2.190-2.194, above were perhaps the first injunctions from God to Muslims to prepare themselves for fighting. It was obviously a war in the defense of their homeland and their Faith.

In verse 2.190, God instructs Muslims to fight back, but not to transgress, and remain just even during the battle. "They are told that material interests should not be the motivation for their fighting, that they should not take up arms against those were not in opposition to the true faith, that they should not resort to unscrupulous methods or to the indiscriminate killing and pillage which characterized the other wars. The excesses alluded to in this verse are acts such as taking up arms against women and children, the old and the injured, mutilation of the dead bodies of the enemy, uncalled for devastation through the destruction of fields and livestock, and other similar acts of injustice and brutality.

The Prophet prohibited all these acts. The real intent of the verse is to stress that force should be used only when its use is unavoidable, and only to the extent that is absolutely necessary." (see note 201, page 151, Towards Understanding the Quran, Volume 1)

Like cherry picking quotes from the bible - historical context is important.

koran 22:19 Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.

Sort of...but really, more standard religious rhetoric as can be found in the Bible - The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
These are two adversaries who have disputed over their Lord. But those who disbelieved will have cut out for them garments of fire. Poured upon their heads will be scalding water

koran 9:5 When opportunity arises kill the infidels wherever you catch them.
Again - misleading.

Here's the quote: The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The context is from early in the history, when they were fighting the polytheists (pagans) who had persecuted them.g

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.
Umh..no...not exactly - in all the translations, it's "make war on Islam", not anywhere is it criticize.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,​

koran 9:123 Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.
This one is ok...

9:123 "O you who believe, fight those of the unbelievers near you and let them see how harsh you can be. Know that Allah is with the righteous."
and it mirrors and earlier one - ah, the wondeful tolerance of religions...
9:73 "O Prophet, fight the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be stern with them. Their abode is Hell, and what a terrible fate!"

koran 8:60 Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.
This one two, is a dishonest "translation" - here's what it actually says: The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.​

koran 8:65 The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.
From the same source as above, which includes multiple translation sources:

O Prophet, urge the believers to battle. If there are among you twenty [who are] steadfast, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are among you one hundred [who are] steadfast, they will overcome a thousand of those who have disbelieved because they are a people who do not understand.​

Essentially, God is telling them that even though they may be few in number, their "belief" will strengthen them. One translation sites "intellegence" the rest "understanding" - just standard religious warfare rhetoric of believers vs unbelievers. So this one is pretty accurate.


Next time, don't plagiarize and pretend you've been reading something you haven't. It's misleading to take cherry pick religious scripture - of any kind and present in a vacuum. It's done all the time with biblical verse and you all scream "context" and "it doesn't really mean this".

Here (Evil Bible Quotes) you can find many similar quotes relating to the bible and like yours, just as disengeniously represented - enjoy. At least I did a little more reading to reply than you did for your OP.

But when you use context with Koran 8:60 (for instance) and understand the previous instructions were to destroy infidels "as enemies of Allah" --- then the brief summary in the OP is NOT that far off -- is it???

Especially if you're one of the 10 or 15% that believe you're still in the 1500s and interpret these phrases as literally as our troops interpret "terms of engagement" for war.. And that's the issue really. Literal interpretation of scripture by militant Jihadists.

If you are an extremist, or a fundamentalist and you take all things literally - or SELECTIVELY literally, then yes - you could interpret it that way and I'm sure some do.

But I disagree that that's "the issue" - the "issue" of the OP has nothing to do with extremists or how extremists interpret it.

Why it HAS to be the issue, because MILLIONS of Muslims are said to be "misinterpreting" the basic scripture of Islam. Which means the "bad Muslims" (consult Obama as to who they are) are mangling verses just as badly as the infidel folks who have a general vendetta against Islam and haven't actually tried to truly understand the religion..

The simplistic model we're supposed to accept is that "good" Muslims have the CORRECT interpretation of these verses -- and the "bad" ones don't.... That's a hard sell actually... I would rather determine good and bad by actual DEEDS and ACTIONS -- than sit here and pretend I'm some sort of Muslim scholar.

I know for a fact that less than 5% of those identifying as Jews have even a novice knowledge of Talmud -- which is the expansive "explanations" of biblical verse. Yet I see neo-Nazis every week who spout Talmud as tho they understand what it's scope or use really is... We are POWERLESS to try and figure out WHO is abusing WHAT in ANY religion actually without investing WAAAY more than any person can bear...

 

[Searcher44]

Christian Parents Caught On Tape Beating Their Gay Son Moments After Disowning Him|The Gaily Grind

Hahaha!!! That was some Jerry Springer shit.

Ok....great example of the extremes of each religion when confronting a gay:
Christians in Georgia: Kick son out of house. Get into a scuffle.
Muslims in ME: Throw gays off 20 floor building and kill them.

^That's extremist Christianity and Islam and how they treat gays. See the difference?

The difference is only by degree. The mentality is exactly the same, and just as dangerous. Evil peas in an evil pod.

Our world's morals are defined by differences in degree. True??

A lesser evil is still evil, a lesser sin still sin. Two wrongs do not make a right. Thought you would have learned that by now.

Of course I have. But to apply your logic....you're saying cops shouldn't pull over the 1 guy doing 120 in a 55mph zone because there are 20 others doing 65-80.

Scope and relativity matter in morality.

Radical Christians are doing 65 in a 55 zone.
Radical Islam is doing 120 in a 55 zone.

I remember the good old days when conservatives used to damn situational ethics.

 

[Searcher44]

Been reading a little at a time. English translated version. A few notes. Enjoy the religion of peace:

koran 47:4 Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.

koran 2:191 Slay unbelievers wherever you find them.

koran 22:19 Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.

koran 8:12 Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.

koran 9:5 When opportunity arises kill the infidels wherever you catch them.

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

koran 9:123 Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.

koran 8:60 Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.

koran 8:65 The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.

koran 3:85 Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.

koran 3:28 Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.

koran 9:30 The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.
Summary of Sura verses dealing with dismemberment, homosexual and heterosexual pedophilia endorsed, allah is all deceiving, allah is unforgiving even to the repentant infidel.

koran Sura just means chapterkoran Sura 5:35 and Sura 8:12 Sura 9:5

koran Sura 9:80 no forgiveness

koran Sura 9:123 Murder the unbelievers around you and let them find harshness in you

koran Sura 13:42 ...Allah is all deceiving (the Bible tells us that the father of lies is Satan)

koran Sura 47:4 Clash with the unbelievers and smite their necks

koran Sura 52:24 Male homosexual Pedophilia endorsed

koran Sura 56:17 Male homosexual pedophilia

koran Sura 65:4 Prescribes sex with pre pubescent girls.

koran Sura 76:19 Male homosexual pedophilia.

I have a suspicion you never read the Koran. I have the feeling you got those particular translations of the surahs off some anti-islam site. I don't defend any religion but lets try to be honest in our criticism.

 

[Indeependent]

Been reading a little at a time. English translated version. A few notes. Enjoy the religion of peace:

koran 47:4 Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.

koran 2:191 Slay unbelievers wherever you find them.

koran 22:19 Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.

koran 8:12 Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.

koran 9:5 When opportunity arises kill the infidels wherever you catch them.

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

koran 9:123 Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.

koran 8:60 Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.

koran 8:65 The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.

koran 3:85 Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.

koran 3:28 Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.

koran 9:30 The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.
Summary of Sura verses dealing with dismemberment, homosexual and heterosexual pedophilia endorsed, allah is all deceiving, allah is unforgiving even to the repentant infidel.

koran Sura just means chapterkoran Sura 5:35 and Sura 8:12 Sura 9:5

koran Sura 9:80 no forgiveness

koran Sura 9:123 Murder the unbelievers around you and let them find harshness in you

koran Sura 13:42 ...Allah is all deceiving (the Bible tells us that the father of lies is Satan)

koran Sura 47:4 Clash with the unbelievers and smite their necks

koran Sura 52:24 Male homosexual Pedophilia endorsed

koran Sura 56:17 Male homosexual pedophilia

koran Sura 65:4 Prescribes sex with pre pubescent girls.

koran Sura 76:19 Male homosexual pedophilia.

Always read the prior 3 verses to get the context.
Most of these "indictments" can be disposed of.
If there's 1 or 2 that point to a true problem, let's concentrate on those rather then throwing mud at the wall.

 

[flacaltenn]

Just to illustrate what I said about various Interpretations of the Koran and show how hopeless it is for us non-scholars to understand WHY there are so many versions of the SAME LITERAL text...



Rewriting Qur'an :: Center for Islamic Pluralism

The Saudi translation again inserts verbiage hostile to non-Muslims. In the Wahhabi Koran, the upright Jews and Christians turn out to be those who convert to Islam: those enjoining Islamic Monotheism and following Prophet Muhammad and not opposing Prophet Muhammad. To repeat, where the Arabic text actually praises pious Jews and Christians, the Wahhabi English version praises only Jews and Christians who become Muslims.

The original verse 5:65 says of the Jews and Christians: If they observe the Torah and the Gospel and what is revealed to them from their Lord, they shall enjoy abundance.

The Wahhabi edition adds that, in addition to Jews' observing the Torah and Christians' the New Testament, both must accept the Koran--that is, become Muslims--which nowhere appears in the Arabic text and conflicts with traditional Islamic theology. Mainstream Islam treats the Torah, the New Testament, and the Koran as different books. Wahhabism, by contrast, treats the Jewish and Christian scriptures as primitive editions of the Islamic text.

And, inevitably, the Wahhabi Koran adds language aggravating Muslim-Jewish controversies. Verse 17:1 refers to the night journey, an out-of-body experience in which the Prophet Muhammad was taken on a magical steed to a site called in the standard text the farther Temple. The Wahhabi translation alters this to stake the Islamic claim to Jerusalem. It refers to Muhammad's journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) to the farthest mosque (in Jerusalem).


Contempt for non-Muslims suffuses Saudi translations of the Islamic holy book. It is a matter of some urgency, then, that federal and state correctional institutions stop allowing the use of the Wahhabi Koran in Islamic teaching. Every prison warden in America should examine his library and replace this volume with an accurate translation.

The same bigotry is integral to the creed taught at the Imam Mohammed Ibn-Saud Islamic University and spread around the world by preachers and missionaries funded by the Saudi royal family. The spotlight the administration has now fixed on Riyadh's policy of religious intolerance may have embarrassed our Saudi visitors this week. If so, their discomfort is only fitting, as long as their universities and their government continue to promote the extremist cult in which terrorism breeds.

Utterly HOPELESS for us to engage in INTERNAL Muslim conflicts with scripture. One can only surmise that NO ONE in this thread knows the Wahabi Interpretations of the OP passages. Or how generally accepted they might be. OR what the magnitude of the INTERNAL disputes with Islam are. Sufficient to know -- the factions are more than willing to kill each other over differences in interpretations and practices.

And the only thing I can say for sure is that these more virulent VICIOUS interpretations of Koran are spread worldwide by a LOT of Saudi oil money and gobbled up in the more hot-headed areas of the world like Pakistan and Afghanistan.. THESE must be some of the "bad" Muslims that have it all wrong..

 

[Dajjal]

Always read the prior 3 verses to get the context.
Most of these "indictments" can be disposed of.
If there's 1 or 2 that point to a true problem, let's concentrate on those rather then throwing mud at the wall.

The entire context of the Quran is that it is a dirty book of evil lies about God. The Quran also changes the subject as often as the dictionary. In fact it is nothing but a mumbling ramble of an Arab bandit trying to scare people into following him by pretending to be a prophet.
Having said that I know what you mean about reading the verses before and after each verse to get a better picture of what is being said. In doing that I noticed that the verse Muslim's love to quote; verse 2.256 there is no compulsion in religion, is followed by verse 2.257 which says unbelievers will burn in hell for eternity. Is that a free choice?

 

[Coyote]

Been reading a little at a time. English translated version. A few notes. Enjoy the religion of peace:

You are such a faker. You haven't been "reading a little at a time" - you just copied this straight off the internet word for word. M Steven Gronka - Murder, homosexual and heterosexual... | Facebook

While some of the "translations" are accurate, others are leave out a great deal of context or mitigating portions of the quote.

For example:

koran 47:4 Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.

The context here is refering to meeting in battle or fighting so this "translation" is pretty misleading and leaves out a good bit and says nothing about "do not hanker for peace".

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah - never will He waste their deeds.​

koran 2:191 Slay unbelievers wherever you find them.
Another one missing a whole lot of important info...The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

The translation is:
And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

But the historical context is: The Quran on War, peace and Justice

This emigration, known as the Hijrah, marked the beginning of an Islamic society in Madinah, in which the Prophet became the head of the state. It was not long before the polytheists of Makkah marched towards Madinah to wage war against Muslims and destroy the Islamic state of Madinah. This battle is known as the Battle of Badr. The verses 2.190-2.194, above were perhaps the first injunctions from God to Muslims to prepare themselves for fighting. It was obviously a war in the defense of their homeland and their Faith.

In verse 2.190, God instructs Muslims to fight back, but not to transgress, and remain just even during the battle. "They are told that material interests should not be the motivation for their fighting, that they should not take up arms against those were not in opposition to the true faith, that they should not resort to unscrupulous methods or to the indiscriminate killing and pillage which characterized the other wars. The excesses alluded to in this verse are acts such as taking up arms against women and children, the old and the injured, mutilation of the dead bodies of the enemy, uncalled for devastation through the destruction of fields and livestock, and other similar acts of injustice and brutality.

The Prophet prohibited all these acts. The real intent of the verse is to stress that force should be used only when its use is unavoidable, and only to the extent that is absolutely necessary." (see note 201, page 151, Towards Understanding the Quran, Volume 1)

Like cherry picking quotes from the bible - historical context is important.

koran 22:19 Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.

Sort of...but really, more standard religious rhetoric as can be found in the Bible - The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
These are two adversaries who have disputed over their Lord. But those who disbelieved will have cut out for them garments of fire. Poured upon their heads will be scalding water

koran 9:5 When opportunity arises kill the infidels wherever you catch them.
Again - misleading.

Here's the quote: The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation
Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

The context is from early in the history, when they were fighting the polytheists (pagans) who had persecuted them.g

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.
Umh..no...not exactly - in all the translations, it's "make war on Islam", not anywhere is it criticize.

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,​

koran 9:123 Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.
This one is ok...

9:123 "O you who believe, fight those of the unbelievers near you and let them see how harsh you can be. Know that Allah is with the righteous."
and it mirrors and earlier one - ah, the wondeful tolerance of religions...
9:73 "O Prophet, fight the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be stern with them. Their abode is Hell, and what a terrible fate!"

koran 8:60 Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.
This one two, is a dishonest "translation" - here's what it actually says: The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know [but] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.​

koran 8:65 The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.
From the same source as above, which includes multiple translation sources:

O Prophet, urge the believers to battle. If there are among you twenty [who are] steadfast, they will overcome two hundred. And if there are among you one hundred [who are] steadfast, they will overcome a thousand of those who have disbelieved because they are a people who do not understand.​

Essentially, God is telling them that even though they may be few in number, their "belief" will strengthen them. One translation sites "intellegence" the rest "understanding" - just standard religious warfare rhetoric of believers vs unbelievers. So this one is pretty accurate.


Next time, don't plagiarize and pretend you've been reading something you haven't. It's misleading to take cherry pick religious scripture - of any kind and present in a vacuum. It's done all the time with biblical verse and you all scream "context" and "it doesn't really mean this".

Here (Evil Bible Quotes) you can find many similar quotes relating to the bible and like yours, just as disengeniously represented - enjoy. At least I did a little more reading to reply than you did for your OP.

But when you use context with Koran 8:60 (for instance) and understand the previous instructions were to destroy infidels "as enemies of Allah" --- then the brief summary in the OP is NOT that far off -- is it???

Especially if you're one of the 10 or 15% that believe you're still in the 1500s and interpret these phrases as literally as our troops interpret "terms of engagement" for war.. And that's the issue really. Literal interpretation of scripture by militant Jihadists.

If you are an extremist, or a fundamentalist and you take all things literally - or SELECTIVELY literally, then yes - you could interpret it that way and I'm sure some do.

But I disagree that that's "the issue" - the "issue" of the OP has nothing to do with extremists or how extremists interpret it.

Why it HAS to be the issue, because MILLIONS of Muslims are said to be "misinterpreting" the basic scripture of Islam. Which means the "bad Muslims" (consult Obama as to who they are) are mangling verses just as badly as the infidel folks who have a general vendetta against Islam and haven't actually tried to truly understand the religion..

The simplistic model we're supposed to accept is that "good" Muslims have the CORRECT interpretation of these verses -- and the "bad" ones don't.... That's a hard sell actually... I would rather determine good and bad by actual DEEDS and ACTIONS -- than sit here and pretend I'm some sort of Muslim scholar.

I know for a fact that less than 5% of those identifying as Jews have even a novice knowledge of Talmud -- which is the expansive "explanations" of biblical verse. Yet I see neo-Nazis every week who spout Talmud as tho they understand what it's scope or use really is... We are POWERLESS to try and figure out WHO is abusing WHAT in ANY religion actually without investing WAAAY more than any person can bear...

I agree - it's not that simplistic, not a matter of simply labeling people one way or the other. Good or bad are what people choose to do. Religion is neither good nor bad, but contains justifications for both depending on how a follower chooses to follow. Your faith can tell you to believe homosexuality is wrong, and you can choose to take that from a belief to an action of jailing or killing a person.

There are scholars though, who study in detail their religion - Christian, Jewish, Muslim - and even they don't all agree. There are many schools of thought as well. And there are far too many internet "experts" who rely on anonymous crap that gets passed around so many times it's grossly distorted.

 

[Coyote]

Been reading a little at a time. English translated version. A few notes. Enjoy the religion of peace:

koran 47:4 Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them.

koran 2:191 Slay unbelievers wherever you find them.

koran 22:19 Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods boiling water; melt their skin and bellies.

koran 8:12 Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.

koran 9:5 When opportunity arises kill the infidels wherever you catch them.

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

koran 9:123 Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood.

koran 8:60 Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels.

koran 8:65 The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them.

koran 3:85 Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable.

koran 3:28 Muslims must not take the infidels as friends.

koran 9:30 The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them.
Summary of Sura verses dealing with dismemberment, homosexual and heterosexual pedophilia endorsed, allah is all deceiving, allah is unforgiving even to the repentant infidel.

koran Sura just means chapterkoran Sura 5:35 and Sura 8:12 Sura 9:5

koran Sura 9:80 no forgiveness

koran Sura 9:123 Murder the unbelievers around you and let them find harshness in you

koran Sura 13:42 ...Allah is all deceiving (the Bible tells us that the father of lies is Satan)

koran Sura 47:4 Clash with the unbelievers and smite their necks

koran Sura 52:24 Male homosexual Pedophilia endorsed

koran Sura 56:17 Male homosexual pedophilia

koran Sura 65:4 Prescribes sex with pre pubescent girls.

koran Sura 76:19 Male homosexual pedophilia.

I have a suspicion you never read the Koran. I have the feeling you got those particular translations of the surahs off some anti-islam site. I don't defend any religion but lets try to be honest in our criticism.

It was plagiarized off the internet.

 

[Coyote]

And that excuses Buca lying about the Koran?

There are a few that might not be accurate -- but on the WHOLE -- there's a lot of baggage there.
For instance ---

The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

And what is being done here is for you to give a RANGE of interpretations -- rather than the literal translations. Like in some kind of Koran for Dummies. Rather -- I would be swayed more by what it actually says -- and THEN read 6 or 8 different interpretations. .

I've looked up 6 or 8 given the source above -- and those summaries are fairly accurate.

***** HOWEVER -- I do sympathize when antagonistic people come in fresh with boosted quotes about what appears in your religion to be embarrassing or obnoxious quotes without understanding the times and circumstances in which they were written ----- OR the context and definitions of the terms..

The danger is ALWAYS -- in any scripture driven religion -- that some demented zealots will take a literal translation and try to move the clock BACK by a couple millenia.. And THAT is the current problem with about 15% to 25% of practicing Muslims worldwide..

Well- I not only looked up the links- I copied and pasted one or more of the translations. You didn't dispute any of my translations- nor provide a quotation of any of Buc's claims that refuted mine.

Frankly not one of the summaries he made was accurate.

I agree with you- there is always a danger that people will abuse scriptures of any kind- that has happened throughout history.

But there are also those like Buc- who abuse scriptures as he did in the OP- to deliberately mislead about what those scriptures said.

I have seen this done to attack Jews, I have seen this done to attack Christians, and in this case, it is done to attack Muslims.

We agree on how this scripture interpretation is used as weapon by folks with pre-conceived notions about ANY religion.. But I disagree about the accuracy of the summaries given in the OP. Out of 6 or 8 that I checked. I found one that was a total head-scratcher, and another that's being interpreted in some (maybe devious) fashion. But the others were Totally acceptable face-value summaries..

In the Old Testament -- it was largely God making the threats and taking the vengeance. I find that the Koran reads more like a military guidebook for rules of engagement and conflict. At least -- the danger is -- it's easier to LITERALLY interpret it that way. There is virtually no tolerance or forgiveness for non-believers -- call them infidels or whatever you want. And they are assumed guilty of offending Allah by virtue that they are not pledged to his loyalty.. Hard to suppress that much baggage. And I'd LOVE to know how the 85% of "peaceful" Muslims find it acceptable to ignore all that...

Is there really virtually "no tolerance" or are we relying on popular media to tell us that?

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors" (2:190) In addition, when the enemy inclines toward peace, Muslims are commanded to cease hostilities: "But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace" (8:61). The guiding principle of Islam with respect to non-Muslims is one of tolerance and mutual respect, plain and simple: "God does not forbid you from dealing kindly and justly with those who do not fight you for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes: for God loveth those who are just." (60:8)​

Does the Koran Advocate Violence? - (an interesting article becaused further on it also shows how extremists can pick the passages that suit their desire for violence)

In Christianity and Islam, as in all religions, how followers choose to practice their beliefs is based on their interpretation and acceptance of Holy Scripture. Many passages in all forms of religious texts are outdated and are considered criminal if carried out in today's time, but are still discussed as part of the faith.

Father Dan Madigan, a professor of theology at Georgetown University, pointed out that these passages are recited every day in the Christian faith, and yet thousands of clergy members remain at peace.

"Imagine how many monks and nuns around the world chant the Psalms every day," he said. "In the Psalms, there are some really awful versus about smashing babies heads against rocks, but they chant them and it doesn't make them violent."

He noted the double standard many put on the Koran. "We have a way of dealing with our scriptures as they are and Muslims are in the same position."

The Old Testament is filled with tales of divinely-ordained slaughter and war, yet about two billion Christians today follow the word of the Lord, coupled with the New Testament, which includes a command from Jesus to "love thy neighbor as you love thyself."

Muslims also face a similar dichotomy of ideas in the Koran, from maintaining peace to raging war. In one part, the scripture says there is "no coercion in matters of faith." In another, the Koran tells Muslims to "fight those who believe not in Allah."...

...While some fundamentalist Muslims may declare they follow Muhammad's instructions to "fight the infidels," moderate scholars argue the infidels he was referring to have been dead for 1,300 years.

"'Infidel' in the Koran is not just a noun or an adjective, it is the word that the Koran uses to describe explicitly and exclusively the Meccan aristocracy with which the Muslim community was at war with," explained Dr. Reza Aslan, a Muslim scholar and author of several books on the Middle East.

Father Dan Madigan also pointed out the key passage that follows the "fight the infidels" line that many radical Islamists often ignore or don't know it exists.

"The verse immediately after it says, 'If any of the unbelievers asks you for sanctuary, then take them into your houses so that they might hear the word of God and then let them go on their way,'" he said.

On the other hand, another Muslim scholar stated that of the more than 6,000 verses of the Koran, 109 call for war against enemies of the faith.
​

Let's get rid of the "dashing babies against rocks" and then we'll be able to agree on some important points...

Remember, O LORD, against the sons of Edom The day of Jerusalem, Who said, "Raze it, raze it To its very foundation." 8O daughter of Babylon, you devastated one, How blessed will be the one who repays you With the recompense with which you have repaid us.9How blessed will be the one who seizes and dashes your little ones Against the rock.

What you have there is a repetition of what the Babylonians had already done to Jewish women and children.. Acts which had already been done. As literary license --- the Psalm in question and the Prophets Hosea et al, were merely sizing up the proper scope of revenge. God wasn't REQUIRING them to go those lengths,, these were words of men.. As the Old Test. prophets did not have the divinity or protected status of the likes of Mohammed...

That's why no Jewish or Christian fundies are freaking out about making this a generalized tactic against enemies. And it appears to me, that Mohammed saw and was paranoid about FAR more enemies,, than are mentioned in the Old Testament. .And the Koran goes a lot farther in declaring GENERALIZED threats, nuisances and enemies of Islam.

What you are doing is adding the proper context to that violent quote but omitting context from the Islamic quotes.

I posted this one earlier but will repeat it:

The OP stated: koran 2:191 Slay unbelievers wherever you find them.
From The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

That verse is preceded by this one, which provides context:

Sahih International: Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

Pickthall: Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

Yusuf Ali: Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.

Shakir: And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.

Muhammad Sarwar: Fight for the cause of God, those who fight you, but do not transgress, for God does not love the transgressors.

Mohsin Khan: And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with Jihad, but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)].

Arberry: And fight in the way of God with those; who fight with you, but aggress not: God loves not the aggressors.​

But the historical context is: The Quran on War, peace and Justice

This emigration, known as the Hijrah, marked the beginning of an Islamic society in Madinah, in which the Prophet became the head of the state. It was not long before the polytheists of Makkah marched towards Madinah to wage war against Muslims and destroy the Islamic state of Madinah. This battle is known as the Battle of Badr. The verses 2.190-2.194, above were perhaps the first injunctions from God to Muslims to prepare themselves for fighting. It was obviously a war in the defense of their homeland and their Faith.

In verse 2.190, God instructs Muslims to fight back, but not to transgress, and remain just even during the battle. "They are told that material interests should not be the motivation for their fighting, that they should not take up arms against those were not in opposition to the true faith, that they should not resort to unscrupulous methods or to the indiscriminate killing and pillage which characterized the other wars. The excesses alluded to in this verse are acts such as taking up arms against women and children, the old and the injured, mutilation of the dead bodies of the enemy, uncalled for devastation through the destruction of fields and livestock, and other similar acts of injustice and brutality.

The Prophet prohibited all these acts. The real intent of the verse is to stress that force should be used only when its use is unavoidable, and only to the extent that is absolutely necessary." (see note 201, page 151, Towards Understanding the Quran, Volume 1)​

Compare that to this quote from Deuteronomy 20:10-14:

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.​

Which could be "interpreted" (using the style of summarizing that the OP uses and leaving important bits and any historical context) - God tells you to kill every man and rape the women. "If they refuse to make peace" could be understood as "refuse to submit/convert" or "surrender their slights and offenses".

Now I understand IT'S POSSIBLE for most Muslims to equivocate away the calls to fight infidels. Like the one selected phrase in your quote above "... if they ask for sanctuary... " That's essentially if they surrender their slights and offenses against Islam -- which is essentially surrendering to will of Allah.. Although I will memorize "the sanctuary clause " and quote it to the next AK-47 wielding Jihadist that has me in his/her sights at a shopping mall.. I DOUBT it would have made a whit of difference to folks at Charlie Hebdot or the Christians beheaded on that Syrian beach..

It's not "equivocate" - you need to read the verse before it. Of course it won't make a difference to extremists - it never does to any extremists or fundamentalists.

---the MAJORITY of Muslims overlook the 109 passages that are essentially military rules of engagement and peacefully practice the faith. And it's not fair to ding the Koran for references of what NOW is considered pedophilia the world over -- since most of those are also part of the judeo-Chistian scriptures.

I find it interesting that 109 out of 6000 verses roughly gives the same 18% percentage of Muslims who take a dangerous fundamental interpretation of Koran to extremes. And I clearly see the basis for their rightful interpretations. And arguing that they are not "True Muslims" is a pretty weak defense for discriminating between "good and bad" Muslims.. That's not something that a lay infidel like me could ever do.. But I see our Prez PRETENDING that HE knows the differrence. Must know a carload more than me about the Koran..

Most folks can only take it "on faith" that there IS such a thing as studied peaceful Muslim worship...

Interesting and thought provoking but I don't think that it is any more than that. I do think the Prez knows more than the average person because he spent time in a Muslim society. Islam is not monolithic.

I disagree that most folks can only take it "on faith" - if there wasn't such a thing as studied peaceful Muslim worship, and 2.6 billion Muslims world wide...things would be infinately worse than they are now and what's more - that would be ongoing.

 

[flacaltenn]

Far as I can tell -- all that is a more general discussion about war and peace in the Koran. It really has nothing to do with the "smashing babies" quote. Since those disputes with the Babylonians (how weird is that -- that Baby is in their name) happened long before Mohammed or Islam..

It is true that during Mohammed's time, his cause was largely against the polytheists and those "arabs" resisting or attacking the concept of Islam. But within 400 yrs of his death -- the spread of Islam was largely done by conquest and force. So much for God hates aggressors..

At 18% or so -- that means (according to a series of Pew polls) at least 400Mill are more than slightly sympathetic to radical Jihadist methods. And western interventions in the Mid East means that those nations practicing tolerance and open borders have a real problem..

We have largely failed to address the manufactured and marketed VILER version of Islam being sold and exported from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Like in the critique I posted of Wahabi versions of the Koran, this is important. Because essentially, it's the same kind of "state-sponsored" co-opting of religion that split England and Spain and other places. Large amounts of cash and power are behind the selling of this mutant strain of Islam.

Shouldn't be any of my business -- UNTIL --- I wake up every morning to bloodshed all over the world -- EVERY MORNING -- and realize we are weak and stupid for not looking further into separating this Good/Bad Muslim thing. There appears to be muslims literally RE-WRITING the Koran to fit the purposes of their socio-political aims and passing it off as the purer form of Islam. And we largely KNOW WHO THEY ARE.. But political correctness and chronically bad foreign policy prevent us from speaking out about the proprietors of this stuff. Which as a nation --- SHOULD BE correct --- in that it's an internal RELIGIOUS issue..

But I think we KNOW who the "bad" muslims are with the wrong interpretation of Islam. Up to now -- that hasn't been our fight.. I think it is now.. But we need the "better" muslims to lead the campaign -- and the only sign that anything is happening -- is that muslims are killing each other at record rates recently. Maybe that's the way differences in interpretation of scripture are handled in Islam eh???

 

[Syriusly]

Well- I not only looked up the links- I copied and pasted one or more of the translations. You didn't dispute any of my translations- nor provide a quotation of any of Buc's claims that refuted mine.

Frankly not one of the summaries he made was accurate.

I agree with you- there is always a danger that people will abuse scriptures of any kind- that has happened throughout history.

But there are also those like Buc- who abuse scriptures as he did in the OP- to deliberately mislead about what those scriptures said.

I have seen this done to attack Jews, I have seen this done to attack Christians, and in this case, it is done to attack Muslims.

In the Old Testament -- it was largely God making the threats and taking the vengeance. I find that the Koran reads more like a military guidebook for rules of engagement and conflict. At least -- the danger is -- it's easier to LITERALLY interpret it that way. There is virtually no tolerance or forgiveness for non-believers -- call them infidels or whatever you want..

But I just posted a quote which says otherwise

Speaking of context- what about 8:61?

Sahih International: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Pickthall: And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.

Yusuf Ali: But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

Shakir: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Muhammad Sarwar: If they (the unbelievers) propose peace, accept it and trust in God. God is All-hearing and All-knowing.

And how does the Koran refer to Jews and Christians?


Why does the Quran refer to Jews and Christians as kufar, or infidels? What kind of respect and tolerance is that?
The translation of the word kafir as infidel is a grave error. The word infidel means someone who does not believe in God. The Qur’an does not allege that Jews and Christians do not believe in God. On the contrary the Qur’an refers to Jews and Christians respectfully as “People of the Book” and says:

“And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”

[Al-Qur’an 29:46]

Let's focus on ONE --- before we try to "debunk" any others. And my first post gave a literal translation of 5:33 for which the OP summary is entirely adequate. That's why Charlie Hebdot was targeted in Paris. Is it not???

Well before you joined this thread- I had 'debunked' several- and you haven't responded to any of those posts. The first post I see from you is #85, and I don't see a mention of 5.33- perhaps that was your link?

I don't agree that the summary is 'entirely adequate'


What Buc said:

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.



Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

Sorry there Syrius -- but we must not be reading the same things. Because the OP IS entirely adequate as a summary of what I see there with a bit of context..

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

Seems the Koran strives for a one-note purified environment to sustain Islam. And some of these verses are ammunition for the Jihadists. Pretty clear to me ......

What part of 'criticize Islam' are you magically discovering in those qoutes? Or maybe you interpret the 9/11 attack as 'criticism' of the United States? Or our invasion of Iraq as 'criticism' of Iraq?

The OP deliberately misled- that was not a summary- it was an attempt to deceive- like virtually all of his post was.


Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- 'criticize isn't even mentioned- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.


Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

 

[Syriusly]

Been reading a little at a time. English translated version. A few notes. Enjoy the religion of peace:

koran 8:12 Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.
.

Wow- not even close- God was speaking to angels......I am really curious now why you went to this effort to lie about the Koran.

And the Lord said to the angels: "I am with you; go and strengthen the faithful. I shall fill the hearts of infidels with terror. So smite them on their necks and every joint, (and incapacitate them),"
Ali Qarai
Then your Lord signaled to the angels: ‘I am indeed with you; so steady the faithful. I will cast terror into the hearts of the faithless. So strike their necks, and strike their every limb joint!’
Amhad Khan
And when O dear Prophet, your Lord was inspiring the angels that, “I am with you – so make the believers stand firm; I will soon instil fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, so strike above the disbelievers’ necks and hit their each and every bone joint.”

Here is another of Buc's 'summaries'- and then the translations:


Buc: koran 8:12 Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an.
.
Wow- not even close- God was speaking to angels......I am really curious now why you went to this effort to lie about the Koran.

And the Lord said to the angels: "I am with you; go and strengthen the faithful. I shall fill the hearts of infidels with terror. So smite them on their necks and every joint, (and incapacitate them),"
Ali Qarai
Then your Lord signaled to the angels: ‘I am indeed with you; so steady the faithful. I will cast terror into the hearts of the faithless. So strike their necks, and strike their every limb joint!’
Amhad Khan
And when O dear Prophet, your Lord was inspiring the angels that, “I am with you – so make the believers stand firm; I will soon instil fear into the hearts of the disbelievers, so strike above the disbelievers’ necks and hit their each and every bone joint.”

Can't express how relieved I am to hear that Allah was only commanding Angels to do the things accurately summarized in the OP.. So I only have to fear Real Angels or Jihadists with swords who have an "an angel complex".....

Sigh- you just really don't give a damn that the OP was a lie- do you?

What you call an 'accurate' summary "Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an." is not more of an 'accurate summary' to say that the Bible says "kill the women and children whose parents sin"- when referring to God destroying Gommorah.

If you expect me to actually address your real concerns about Islam- first you need to be honest about the OP- and what it is- and what it is not.

The OP is not a summary of quotations from the Koran- the author deliberately misled - and that is why the author didn't actually quote the Koran. This thread is a liar's attack on the Koran- if the Koran is really so bad- why does he have to lie about it?

You want to talk about how radical Islamacists abuse the text of the Koran- I am willing to do that once you acknowledge that the OP is doing that for his own nefarious reasons.

 

[Syriusly]

Utterly HOPELESS for us to engage in INTERNAL Muslim conflicts with scripture. One can only surmise that NO ONE in this thread knows the Wahabi Interpretations of the OP passages.

Then why are you defending the OP?

You have yet to provide a single translation that accurately reflects the so-called summaries the OP printed- now you say what the OP said about the Koran is meaningless in this context.

 

[flacaltenn]

In the Old Testament -- it was largely God making the threats and taking the vengeance. I find that the Koran reads more like a military guidebook for rules of engagement and conflict. At least -- the danger is -- it's easier to LITERALLY interpret it that way. There is virtually no tolerance or forgiveness for non-believers -- call them infidels or whatever you want..

But I just posted a quote which says otherwise

Speaking of context- what about 8:61?

Sahih International: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Pickthall: And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.

Yusuf Ali: But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

Shakir: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Muhammad Sarwar: If they (the unbelievers) propose peace, accept it and trust in God. God is All-hearing and All-knowing.

And how does the Koran refer to Jews and Christians?


Why does the Quran refer to Jews and Christians as kufar, or infidels? What kind of respect and tolerance is that?
The translation of the word kafir as infidel is a grave error. The word infidel means someone who does not believe in God. The Qur’an does not allege that Jews and Christians do not believe in God. On the contrary the Qur’an refers to Jews and Christians respectfully as “People of the Book” and says:

“And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”

[Al-Qur’an 29:46]

Let's focus on ONE --- before we try to "debunk" any others. And my first post gave a literal translation of 5:33 for which the OP summary is entirely adequate. That's why Charlie Hebdot was targeted in Paris. Is it not???

Well before you joined this thread- I had 'debunked' several- and you haven't responded to any of those posts. The first post I see from you is #85, and I don't see a mention of 5.33- perhaps that was your link?

I don't agree that the summary is 'entirely adequate'


What Buc said:

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.



Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

Sorry there Syrius -- but we must not be reading the same things. Because the OP IS entirely adequate as a summary of what I see there with a bit of context..

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

Seems the Koran strives for a one-note purified environment to sustain Islam. And some of these verses are ammunition for the Jihadists. Pretty clear to me ......

What part of 'criticize Islam' are you magically discovering in those qoutes? Or maybe you interpret the 9/11 attack as 'criticism' of the United States? Or our invasion of Iraq as 'criticism' of Iraq?

The OP deliberately misled- that was not a summary- it was an attempt to deceive- like virtually all of his post was.


Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- 'criticize isn't even mentioned- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.


Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

In the Old Testament -- it was largely God making the threats and taking the vengeance. I find that the Koran reads more like a military guidebook for rules of engagement and conflict. At least -- the danger is -- it's easier to LITERALLY interpret it that way. There is virtually no tolerance or forgiveness for non-believers -- call them infidels or whatever you want..

But I just posted a quote which says otherwise

Speaking of context- what about 8:61?

Sahih International: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Pickthall: And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.

Yusuf Ali: But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

Shakir: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Muhammad Sarwar: If they (the unbelievers) propose peace, accept it and trust in God. God is All-hearing and All-knowing.

And how does the Koran refer to Jews and Christians?


Why does the Quran refer to Jews and Christians as kufar, or infidels? What kind of respect and tolerance is that?
The translation of the word kafir as infidel is a grave error. The word infidel means someone who does not believe in God. The Qur’an does not allege that Jews and Christians do not believe in God. On the contrary the Qur’an refers to Jews and Christians respectfully as “People of the Book” and says:

“And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”

[Al-Qur’an 29:46]

Let's focus on ONE --- before we try to "debunk" any others. And my first post gave a literal translation of 5:33 for which the OP summary is entirely adequate. That's why Charlie Hebdot was targeted in Paris. Is it not???

Well before you joined this thread- I had 'debunked' several- and you haven't responded to any of those posts. The first post I see from you is #85, and I don't see a mention of 5.33- perhaps that was your link?

I don't agree that the summary is 'entirely adequate'


What Buc said:

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.



Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

Sorry there Syrius -- but we must not be reading the same things. Because the OP IS entirely adequate as a summary of what I see there with a bit of context..

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

Seems the Koran strives for a one-note purified environment to sustain Islam. And some of these verses are ammunition for the Jihadists. Pretty clear to me ......

What part of 'criticize Islam' are you magically discovering in those qoutes? Or maybe you interpret the 9/11 attack as 'criticism' of the United States? Or our invasion of Iraq as 'criticism' of Iraq?

The OP deliberately misled- that was not a summary- it was an attempt to deceive- like virtually all of his post was.


Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- 'criticize isn't even mentioned- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.


Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

No wonder you're picking nits about the summaries in the OP. You can't accurately read my post you're discussing. I GAVE YOU the "criticism of Islam" example right IN IT.. Charlie Hebdot -- Look it up if you missed that event. And the verse 5:33 has various interpretations that I laid out for you -- RIGHT IN THE POST. INCLUDING ""spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam)..

If you're a regular English speaker -- then you would accept that those definitions are substitutes for criticizing Islam..

I refuse to go on to OTHER claims by you that stuff was "lied about" -- until we have a resolution on this one...