Just read Koran/Quran: Some murderous, pedophilia scriptures.

[Syriusly]

But I just posted a quote which says otherwise

Speaking of context- what about 8:61?

Sahih International: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Pickthall: And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.

Yusuf Ali: But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

Shakir: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Muhammad Sarwar: If they (the unbelievers) propose peace, accept it and trust in God. God is All-hearing and All-knowing.

And how does the Koran refer to Jews and Christians?


Why does the Quran refer to Jews and Christians as kufar, or infidels? What kind of respect and tolerance is that?
The translation of the word kafir as infidel is a grave error. The word infidel means someone who does not believe in God. The Qur’an does not allege that Jews and Christians do not believe in God. On the contrary the Qur’an refers to Jews and Christians respectfully as “People of the Book” and says:

“And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”

[Al-Qur’an 29:46]

Let's focus on ONE --- before we try to "debunk" any others. And my first post gave a literal translation of 5:33 for which the OP summary is entirely adequate. That's why Charlie Hebdot was targeted in Paris. Is it not???

Well before you joined this thread- I had 'debunked' several- and you haven't responded to any of those posts. The first post I see from you is #85, and I don't see a mention of 5.33- perhaps that was your link?

I don't agree that the summary is 'entirely adequate'


What Buc said:

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.



Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

Sorry there Syrius -- but we must not be reading the same things. Because the OP IS entirely adequate as a summary of what I see there with a bit of context..

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

Seems the Koran strives for a one-note purified environment to sustain Islam. And some of these verses are ammunition for the Jihadists. Pretty clear to me ......

What part of 'criticize Islam' are you magically discovering in those qoutes? Or maybe you interpret the 9/11 attack as 'criticism' of the United States? Or our invasion of Iraq as 'criticism' of Iraq?

The OP deliberately misled- that was not a summary- it was an attempt to deceive- like virtually all of his post was.


Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- 'criticize isn't even mentioned- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.


Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

But I just posted a quote which says otherwise

Speaking of context- what about 8:61?

Sahih International: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah. Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Pickthall: And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.

Yusuf Ali: But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things).

Shakir: And if they incline to peace, then incline to it and trust in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

Muhammad Sarwar: If they (the unbelievers) propose peace, accept it and trust in God. God is All-hearing and All-knowing.

And how does the Koran refer to Jews and Christians?


Why does the Quran refer to Jews and Christians as kufar, or infidels? What kind of respect and tolerance is that?
The translation of the word kafir as infidel is a grave error. The word infidel means someone who does not believe in God. The Qur’an does not allege that Jews and Christians do not believe in God. On the contrary the Qur’an refers to Jews and Christians respectfully as “People of the Book” and says:

“And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, “We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).”

[Al-Qur’an 29:46]

Let's focus on ONE --- before we try to "debunk" any others. And my first post gave a literal translation of 5:33 for which the OP summary is entirely adequate. That's why Charlie Hebdot was targeted in Paris. Is it not???

Well before you joined this thread- I had 'debunked' several- and you haven't responded to any of those posts. The first post I see from you is #85, and I don't see a mention of 5.33- perhaps that was your link?

I don't agree that the summary is 'entirely adequate'


What Buc said:

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.



Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

Sorry there Syrius -- but we must not be reading the same things. Because the OP IS entirely adequate as a summary of what I see there with a bit of context..

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

Seems the Koran strives for a one-note purified environment to sustain Islam. And some of these verses are ammunition for the Jihadists. Pretty clear to me ......

What part of 'criticize Islam' are you magically discovering in those qoutes? Or maybe you interpret the 9/11 attack as 'criticism' of the United States? Or our invasion of Iraq as 'criticism' of Iraq?

The OP deliberately misled- that was not a summary- it was an attempt to deceive- like virtually all of his post was.


Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- 'criticize isn't even mentioned- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.


Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

No wonder you're picking nits about the summaries in the OP. You can't accurately read my post you're discussing. I GAVE YOU the "criticism of Islam" example right IN IT.. Charlie Hebdot -- Look it up if you missed that event. And the verse 5:33 has various interpretations that I laid out for you -- RIGHT IN THE POST. INCLUDING ""spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam)..

If you're a regular English speaker -- then you would accept that those definitions are substitutes for criticizing Islam..

I refuse to go on to OTHER claims by you that stuff was "lied about" -- until we have a resolution on this one...

From your post- I assume this is what you are talking about- your quote and words in red

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

So here is the link to 5:33
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Still not seeing anything about 'criticize Islam"- if you have an actual interpretation that supports that claim- show the me the quote and the link- I am not seeing it in your post.

Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.


Mohsin Khan: The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.


Arberry: This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off; or they shall be banished from the land. That is a degradation for them in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement,

 

[flacaltenn]

Utterly HOPELESS for us to engage in INTERNAL Muslim conflicts with scripture. One can only surmise that NO ONE in this thread knows the Wahabi Interpretations of the OP passages.

Then why are you defending the OP?

You have yet to provide a single translation that accurately reflects the so-called summaries the OP printed- now you say what the OP said about the Koran is meaningless in this context.

I'm not defending the OP.. Because I admitted -- I have my feet up on desk TRYING to understand WHY there are such Varied and inaccurate "interpretations" of Islamic scripture. Can't even differentiate "finger tips" from elbows and knees. And I told you that the Koran has been hijacked by the Wahibists and the Taliban and others who have literally RE-WROTE many of those passages and consider them as holy as the original.

We're not looking at THOSE interpretations -- a couple examples I gave you from a friendly Muslim site. --- And I'm CERTAINLY not going to Wahabist or Taliban websites to check if MAYBE -- interpretations in the OP came from those "versions" of the Koran.. Saudi money has PAID to rewrite the Koran and widely distribute it world-wide to encourage the brand of fundy Muslim terrorism that the world is at war with.

Many of the summaries in the OP are completely adequate. Like the 5:33 you still claim is wrong. I contend it's more than adequate to describe the passage. And I gave you reasons and how that verse probably was misinterpreted by Muslim terrorists who know far better than we do -- what the various interpretations and context are...

 

[flacaltenn]

Let's focus on ONE --- before we try to "debunk" any others. And my first post gave a literal translation of 5:33 for which the OP summary is entirely adequate. That's why Charlie Hebdot was targeted in Paris. Is it not???

Well before you joined this thread- I had 'debunked' several- and you haven't responded to any of those posts. The first post I see from you is #85, and I don't see a mention of 5.33- perhaps that was your link?

I don't agree that the summary is 'entirely adequate'


What Buc said:

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.



Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

Sorry there Syrius -- but we must not be reading the same things. Because the OP IS entirely adequate as a summary of what I see there with a bit of context..

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

Seems the Koran strives for a one-note purified environment to sustain Islam. And some of these verses are ammunition for the Jihadists. Pretty clear to me ......

What part of 'criticize Islam' are you magically discovering in those qoutes? Or maybe you interpret the 9/11 attack as 'criticism' of the United States? Or our invasion of Iraq as 'criticism' of Iraq?

The OP deliberately misled- that was not a summary- it was an attempt to deceive- like virtually all of his post was.


Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- 'criticize isn't even mentioned- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.


Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

Let's focus on ONE --- before we try to "debunk" any others. And my first post gave a literal translation of 5:33 for which the OP summary is entirely adequate. That's why Charlie Hebdot was targeted in Paris. Is it not???

Well before you joined this thread- I had 'debunked' several- and you haven't responded to any of those posts. The first post I see from you is #85, and I don't see a mention of 5.33- perhaps that was your link?

I don't agree that the summary is 'entirely adequate'


What Buc said:

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.



Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

Sorry there Syrius -- but we must not be reading the same things. Because the OP IS entirely adequate as a summary of what I see there with a bit of context..

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

Seems the Koran strives for a one-note purified environment to sustain Islam. And some of these verses are ammunition for the Jihadists. Pretty clear to me ......

What part of 'criticize Islam' are you magically discovering in those qoutes? Or maybe you interpret the 9/11 attack as 'criticism' of the United States? Or our invasion of Iraq as 'criticism' of Iraq?

The OP deliberately misled- that was not a summary- it was an attempt to deceive- like virtually all of his post was.


Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- 'criticize isn't even mentioned- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.


Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

No wonder you're picking nits about the summaries in the OP. You can't accurately read my post you're discussing. I GAVE YOU the "criticism of Islam" example right IN IT.. Charlie Hebdot -- Look it up if you missed that event. And the verse 5:33 has various interpretations that I laid out for you -- RIGHT IN THE POST. INCLUDING ""spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam)..

If you're a regular English speaker -- then you would accept that those definitions are substitutes for criticizing Islam..

I refuse to go on to OTHER claims by you that stuff was "lied about" -- until we have a resolution on this one...

From your post- I assume this is what you are talking about- your quote and words in red

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

So here is the link to 5:33
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Still not seeing anything about 'criticize Islam"- if you have an actual interpretation that supports that claim- show the me the quote and the link- I am not seeing it in your post.

Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.


Mohsin Khan: The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.


Arberry: This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off; or they shall be banished from the land. That is a degradation for them in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement,

You're not reading the various interpretations and how BROADLY these examples vary.. What does
"do mischief (or evil) in the land" mean? Would it mean making fun of Mohammed in a Cartoon Contest? Or even drawing his image? Would it mean locking up prisoners in Gitmo? Having bases in Saudi? Letting women drive cars? Sending aid to Israel?

 

[flacaltenn]

Or might "doing mischief and evil in the land"... against Allah and his Prophet mean allowing a message board where curious and anxious folks can criticize various "brands" of Islam and label them evil strains???

 

[Syriusly]

Many of the summaries in the OP are completely adequate. Like the 5:33 you still claim is wrong. I contend it's more than adequate to describe the passage. And I gave you reasons and how that verse probably was misinterpreted by Muslim terrorists who know far better than we do -- what the various interpretations and context are...

Great- you gave me your interpretation on how Muslims may have interpreted the passage one way- but you still haven't found a single interpretation of 5:33 that supports what the OP claims 5:33 says.

I am okay with the idea that there may be an interpretation that agrees with the OP except for a few things:

• The OP 'neglected' to either quote the Koran- or provide citation to an interpretation of the Koran
• And none of the interpretations of the Koran I have found agree with the OP's 'interpretation'
• The OP abandoned the thread- and isn't even trying to defend the crap he posted.

Until someone comes up with an interpretation that actually supports the OP's assertion- his assertion is shown to be wrong

Great- you gave me your interpretation on how Muslims may have interpreted the passage one way- but you still haven't found a single interpretation of 5:33 that supports what the OP claims 5:33 says.

I am okay with the idea that there may be an interpretation that agrees with the OP except for a few things:

• The OP 'neglected' to either quote the Koran- or provide citation to an interpretation of the Koran
• And none of the interpretations of the Koran I have found agree with the OP's 'interpretation'
• The OP abandoned the thread- and isn't even trying to defend the crap he posted.

Until someone comes up with an interpretation that actually supports the OP's assertion- his assertion is shown to be wrong

 

[Syriusly]

Well before you joined this thread- I had 'debunked' several- and you haven't responded to any of those posts. The first post I see from you is #85, and I don't see a mention of 5.33- perhaps that was your link?

I don't agree that the summary is 'entirely adequate'


What Buc said:

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.



Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

Sorry there Syrius -- but we must not be reading the same things. Because the OP IS entirely adequate as a summary of what I see there with a bit of context..

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

Seems the Koran strives for a one-note purified environment to sustain Islam. And some of these verses are ammunition for the Jihadists. Pretty clear to me ......

What part of 'criticize Islam' are you magically discovering in those qoutes? Or maybe you interpret the 9/11 attack as 'criticism' of the United States? Or our invasion of Iraq as 'criticism' of Iraq?

The OP deliberately misled- that was not a summary- it was an attempt to deceive- like virtually all of his post was.


Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- 'criticize isn't even mentioned- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.


Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

Well before you joined this thread- I had 'debunked' several- and you haven't responded to any of those posts. The first post I see from you is #85, and I don't see a mention of 5.33- perhaps that was your link?

I don't agree that the summary is 'entirely adequate'


What Buc said:

koran 5:33 Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam.

Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.



Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

Sorry there Syrius -- but we must not be reading the same things. Because the OP IS entirely adequate as a summary of what I see there with a bit of context..

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

Seems the Koran strives for a one-note purified environment to sustain Islam. And some of these verses are ammunition for the Jihadists. Pretty clear to me ......

What part of 'criticize Islam' are you magically discovering in those qoutes? Or maybe you interpret the 9/11 attack as 'criticism' of the United States? Or our invasion of Iraq as 'criticism' of Iraq?

The OP deliberately misled- that was not a summary- it was an attempt to deceive- like virtually all of his post was.


Actual translations of 5:33- nothing about 'if they criticize Islam- 'criticize isn't even mentioned- those who wage war against God(Allah) and his messenger(Mohammed)- and 'strive after corruption.


Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

Compare now this now to the Bible

“Whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall stone him. The sojourner as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death” (v. 16).

- Leviticus 24:10–16

No wonder you're picking nits about the summaries in the OP. You can't accurately read my post you're discussing. I GAVE YOU the "criticism of Islam" example right IN IT.. Charlie Hebdot -- Look it up if you missed that event. And the verse 5:33 has various interpretations that I laid out for you -- RIGHT IN THE POST. INCLUDING ""spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam)..

If you're a regular English speaker -- then you would accept that those definitions are substitutes for criticizing Islam..

I refuse to go on to OTHER claims by you that stuff was "lied about" -- until we have a resolution on this one...

From your post- I assume this is what you are talking about- your quote and words in red

The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.

What part of "maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam" is not adequate??? Charlie Hebdot was "spreading evil in the land" by denigrating Mohammed and fighting against God and His Messenger (or by your other interpretation --- merely making mischief against Islam).. That's why a civilian business such as that was a target for killing.. Fighting against God and His Messenger can be interpreted a hundred ways -- can it not?

So here is the link to 5:33
The Quranic Arabic Corpus - Translation

Still not seeing anything about 'criticize Islam"- if you have an actual interpretation that supports that claim- show the me the quote and the link- I am not seeing it in your post.

Sahih International: Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,


Pickthall: The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;


Yusuf Ali: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;


Shakir: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,


Muhammad Sarwar: The only proper recompense for those who fight against God and His Messenger and try to spread evil in the land is to be killed, crucified, or either to have one of their hands and feet cut from the opposite side or to be sent into exile. These are to disgrace them in this life and they will suffer a great torment in the life hereafter.


Mohsin Khan: The recompense of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and do mischief in the land is only that they shall be killed or crucified or their hands and their feet be cut off on the opposite sides, or be exiled from the land. That is their disgrace in this world, and a great torment is theirs in the Hereafter.


Arberry: This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off; or they shall be banished from the land. That is a degradation for them in this world; and in the world to come awaits them a mighty chastisement,

You're not reading the various interpretations and how BROADLY these examples vary.. What does
"do mischief (or evil) in the land" mean? Would it mean making fun of Mohammed in a Cartoon Contest? Or even drawing his image? Would it mean locking up prisoners in Gitmo? Having bases in Saudi? Letting women drive cars? Sending aid to Israel?

Oh certainly- there are persons who could interpret 'doing mischief' to be any of those things. But that is not what the OP was saying

But none of those translations actually say any of those things- as the OP claims.

 

[Coyote]

Far as I can tell -- all that is a more general discussion about war and peace in the Koran. It really has nothing to do with the "smashing babies" quote. Since those disputes with the Babylonians (how weird is that -- that Baby is in their name) happened long before Mohammed or Islam..

It is true that during Mohammed's time, his cause was largely against the polytheists and those "arabs" resisting or attacking the concept of Islam. But within 400 yrs of his death -- the spread of Islam was largely done by conquest and force. So much for God hates aggressors..

Was it? That's today's popular narrative isn't it? Muslims conquered territory, but in terms of religion - the way Islam spread was not just through force. I think this is typical of a many religions once they become a large enough force - certainly Christianity went the same route. They also become further removed from the principles of their founding.

Spread of Islam, The - Oxford Islamic Studies Online

Muslim commanders left the social structure of the conquered territories almost intact by appointing local Muslim governors and relying on local administrative and financial systems. The populations were not converted en masse but in time the frequency of conversions increased. The reasons for embracing Islam ranged from a desire to come closer to the new masters and share their privileges, to an acknowledgment of, or belief in, the tolerant and syncretistic nature of the new faith. Tolerance, however, could only be granted to the Ahl al Kitab (‘the people of the Book’) that is, those people whom the Qur'an cites as having received revealed scripture: Jews, Christians and the ‘Sabians’. These could not, in principle, be forcibly converted (as could polytheists and disbelievers), and were guaranteed protection and religious autonomy against the payment of a special tax.​

Islam, The Spread Of Islam

The new conquests of Islam were governed with remarkable efficiency and
flexibility. The centralization of authority typical of military organization
aided in the incorporation of new peoples. Unbelievers in the conquered
territories became increasingly interested in the new religion and accepted
Islam in great numbers. In addition to the obvious power of the religious
message of Islam, the imposition of a personal tax on all non-Muslims
encouraged many to become converts. Contrary to exaggerated accounts in
western Europe of the forceful imposition of Islam upon conquered peoples,
Jews and Christians outside of Arabia enjoyed toleration because they
worshiped the same God as the Muslims; many non-Muslims participated in the
Islamic state and prospered financially and socially.

Islam was and remains one the most effective religions in removing
barriers of race and nationality. Apart from a certain privileged position
allowed Arabs, distinctions were mostly those of economic rank in the early
days of conquest. The new religion converted and embraced peoples of many
colors and cultures. This egalitarian feature of Islam undoubtedy aided its
expansion.​

At 18% or so -- that means (according to a series of Pew polls) at least 400Mill are more than slightly sympathetic to radical Jihadist methods. And western interventions in the Mid East means that those nations practicing tolerance and open borders have a real problem..

We have largely failed to address the manufactured and marketed VILER version of Islam being sold and exported from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Like in the critique I posted of Wahabi versions of the Koran, this is important. Because essentially, it's the same kind of "state-sponsored" co-opting of religion that split England and Spain and other places. Large amounts of cash and power are behind the selling of this mutant strain of Islam.

Shouldn't be any of my business -- UNTIL --- I wake up every morning to bloodshed all over the world -- EVERY MORNING -- and realize we are weak and stupid for not looking further into separating this Good/Bad Muslim thing. There appears to be muslims literally RE-WRITING the Koran to fit the purposes of their socio-political aims and passing it off as the purer form of Islam. And we largely KNOW WHO THEY ARE.. But political correctness and chronically bad foreign policy prevent us from speaking out about the proprietors of this stuff. Which as a nation --- SHOULD BE correct --- in that it's an internal RELIGIOUS issue..

"Political correctness" seems to be the term du jour for any time some refuses to acknowledge what another regards as an "obvious truth" - so what is it you are blaming political correctness for? And what would you do differently?

But I think we KNOW who the "bad" muslims are with the wrong interpretation of Islam. Up to now -- that hasn't been our fight.. I think it is now.. But we need the "better" muslims to lead the campaign -- and the only sign that anything is happening -- is that muslims are killing each other at record rates recently. Maybe that's the way differences in interpretation of scripture are handled in Islam e???

But something to think about here....IS Isis really about Islam?

Five Reasons The ISIS Fight Isn't About Islam

For many ISIS members, Islam is a pretext. ISIS isn’t the first militant organization that has attracted young men to its cause by claiming to represent a higher calling. Hitler’s early appeal to alienated young males in the beer halls of Munich — the notion of a thousand-year Reich, the need for lebensraum, the scapegoating of Jews, the rejection of cosmopolitan values – was similar to the appeals that ISIS issues today. It appears that every culture produces large numbers of young males who can be mobilized in the pursuit of millenarian philosophies, not because of the specific content of the vision, but because young men yearn for power and status and resources (not to mention mates). If we focus too closely on the Islamic features of what ISIS leaders propound, we will miss the underlying motivational dynamics that explain why such movements have similar success at recruiting even when they espouse completely opposite ideas.​

 

[flacaltenn]

Who wants to step up and explain to ISIS that they are not Good Muslims??
Volunteers? Lets' hear the pitch.. Best NOT start with comparing them to the 3rd Reich. I'd use some of those "peaceful" Koran quotes -- if it was me interviewing for the job. I certainly am not qualified to argue with them.. I think you'll find their debate more invigorating than a day on USMB..

What would I do differently?

1) Acknowledge that only strongman dictators can hold together the various factions in an Arab country and keep them from killing each other over religious and tribal differences.. Stop creating vacuums of power in the MidEast -- one right after another.

2) Call the Saudis and the Pakis on their creation and export of the "weaponized version" of the Koran and militarized Islam..

3) Start identifying the "bad" muslims by their proper religious affiliations as Wahabists or Taliban or other mutant strains of the religion.

4) Support every possible Muslim outreach program that pledges to monitor and discourage the flourishing of these perverted factions within the Western nations. Enlist their help in explaining the difference between Mohammed's Islam and perverted Islam.

5) Withhold US Aid and impose economic sanctions on any country that uses state influence to propagate these strains of Islam throughout the world.

6) Use the funds instead to build Canadian and Venezuelan sources of oil so that the Saudi royalty no longer has us by the nuts..

Just off the top of my head. Sorry if any of that is politically incorrect..

Islam was and remains one the most effective religions in removing
barriers of race and nationality.

 

[flacaltenn]

Many of the summaries in the OP are completely adequate. Like the 5:33 you still claim is wrong. I contend it's more than adequate to describe the passage. And I gave you reasons and how that verse probably was misinterpreted by Muslim terrorists who know far better than we do -- what the various interpretations and context are...

Great- you gave me your interpretation on how Muslims may have interpreted the passage one way- but you still haven't found a single interpretation of 5:33 that supports what the OP claims 5:33 says.

I am okay with the idea that there may be an interpretation that agrees with the OP except for a few things:

• The OP 'neglected' to either quote the Koran- or provide citation to an interpretation of the Koran
• And none of the interpretations of the Koran I have found agree with the OP's 'interpretation'
• The OP abandoned the thread- and isn't even trying to defend the crap he posted.

Until someone comes up with an interpretation that actually supports the OP's assertion- his assertion is shown to be wrong

Great- you gave me your interpretation on how Muslims may have interpreted the passage one way- but you still haven't found a single interpretation of 5:33 that supports what the OP claims 5:33 says.

I am okay with the idea that there may be an interpretation that agrees with the OP except for a few things:

• The OP 'neglected' to either quote the Koran- or provide citation to an interpretation of the Koran
• And none of the interpretations of the Koran I have found agree with the OP's 'interpretation'
• The OP abandoned the thread- and isn't even trying to defend the crap he posted.

Until someone comes up with an interpretation that actually supports the OP's assertion- his assertion is shown to be wrong

And you just continue to post the same "wall of words" without considering the meanings or implications of them. I asked you specific questions --- which you ditched. I ASSUME because you think there's no reason to use your head to find what KIND of "mischief or evil" was punishable by death and torture.

A good preacher of ANY religion has to do a 20 minute sermon on ANY verse of scripture. Because the interpretation and discussion of the MEANING is the important message. And I'm simply convinced that "mischief and evil" INCLUDES criticism of Allah and Mohammed or even the existence of what are considered sin to a pious Muslim.. Where do you think the multiple waves of Jihadis come from that would kill civilians for merely drawing depictions of Mohammed??

 

[Coyote]

Who wants to step up and explain to ISIS that they are not Good Muslims??
Volunteers? Lets' hear the pitch.. Best NOT start with comparing them to the 3rd Reich. I'd use some of those "peaceful" Koran quotes -- if it was me interviewing for the job. I certainly am not qualified to argue with them.. I think you'll find their debate more invigorating than a day on USMB..

What would I do differently?

1) Acknowledge that only strongman dictators can hold together the various factions in an Arab country and keep them from killing each other over religious and tribal differences.. Stop creating vacuums of power in the MidEast -- one right after another.

Yup!

2) Call the Saudis and the Pakis on their creation and export of the "weaponized version" of the Koran and militarized Islam..

Ok.

3) Start identifying the "bad" muslims by their proper religious affiliations as Wahabists or Taliban or other mutant strains of the religion.

Not sure about that. Wahabists are just a strict fundamentalist sect - do groups like ISIS represent them and do they suport those actions? But I agree - identify them.

4) Support every possible Muslim outreach program that pledges to monitor and discourage the flourishing of these perverted factions within the Western nations. Enlist their help in explaining the difference between Mohammed's Islam and perverted Islam.

Ok...

5) Withhold US Aid and impose economic sanctions on any country that uses state influence to propagate these strains of Islam throughout the world.

Ok...

6) Use the funds instead to build Canadian and Venezuelan sources of oil so that the Saudi royalty no longer has us by the nuts..

Just off the top of my head. Sorry if any of that is politically incorrect..

No, nothing "politically incorrect".

 

[flacaltenn]

Who wants to step up and explain to ISIS that they are not Good Muslims??
Volunteers? Lets' hear the pitch.. Best NOT start with comparing them to the 3rd Reich. I'd use some of those "peaceful" Koran quotes -- if it was me interviewing for the job. I certainly am not qualified to argue with them.. I think you'll find their debate more invigorating than a day on USMB..

What would I do differently?

1) Acknowledge that only strongman dictators can hold together the various factions in an Arab country and keep them from killing each other over religious and tribal differences.. Stop creating vacuums of power in the MidEast -- one right after another.

Yup!

2) Call the Saudis and the Pakis on their creation and export of the "weaponized version" of the Koran and militarized Islam..

Ok.

3) Start identifying the "bad" muslims by their proper religious affiliations as Wahabists or Taliban or other mutant strains of the religion.

Not sure about that. Wahabists are just a strict fundamentalist sect - do groups like ISIS represent them and do they suport those actions? But I agree - identify them.

4) Support every possible Muslim outreach program that pledges to monitor and discourage the flourishing of these perverted factions within the Western nations. Enlist their help in explaining the difference between Mohammed's Islam and perverted Islam.

Ok...

5) Withhold US Aid and impose economic sanctions on any country that uses state influence to propagate these strains of Islam throughout the world.

Ok...

6) Use the funds instead to build Canadian and Venezuelan sources of oil so that the Saudi royalty no longer has us by the nuts..

Just off the top of my head. Sorry if any of that is politically incorrect..

No, nothing "politically incorrect".

You aced that post !!! With one minor gripe..

If you went back and read that entire article I posted on Wahabists Koran -- this is NOT a strict fundy sect.. They are using HIGHLY modified Koran to indoctrinate and recruit. A version of Koran that is thoroughly juiced up with modern day socio-political values and judgments about Christians and Jews and religious, theocratic sovereignty..

Lots of internal discussion on this within (especially Western) Islam. But it never reaches the media or the American public.

 

[Coyote]

Who wants to step up and explain to ISIS that they are not Good Muslims??
Volunteers? Lets' hear the pitch.. Best NOT start with comparing them to the 3rd Reich. I'd use some of those "peaceful" Koran quotes -- if it was me interviewing for the job. I certainly am not qualified to argue with them.. I think you'll find their debate more invigorating than a day on USMB..

What would I do differently?

1) Acknowledge that only strongman dictators can hold together the various factions in an Arab country and keep them from killing each other over religious and tribal differences.. Stop creating vacuums of power in the MidEast -- one right after another.

Yup!

2) Call the Saudis and the Pakis on their creation and export of the "weaponized version" of the Koran and militarized Islam..

Ok.

3) Start identifying the "bad" muslims by their proper religious affiliations as Wahabists or Taliban or other mutant strains of the religion.

Not sure about that. Wahabists are just a strict fundamentalist sect - do groups like ISIS represent them and do they suport those actions? But I agree - identify them.

4) Support every possible Muslim outreach program that pledges to monitor and discourage the flourishing of these perverted factions within the Western nations. Enlist their help in explaining the difference between Mohammed's Islam and perverted Islam.

Ok...

5) Withhold US Aid and impose economic sanctions on any country that uses state influence to propagate these strains of Islam throughout the world.

Ok...

6) Use the funds instead to build Canadian and Venezuelan sources of oil so that the Saudi royalty no longer has us by the nuts..

Just off the top of my head. Sorry if any of that is politically incorrect..

No, nothing "politically incorrect".

You aced that post !!! With one minor gripe..

If you went back and read that entire article I posted on Wahabists Koran -- this is NOT a strict fundy sect.. They are using HIGHLY modified Koran to indoctrinate and recruit. A version of Koran that is thoroughly juiced up with modern day socio-political values and judgments about Christians and Jews and religious, theocratic sovereignty..

Lots of internal discussion on this within (especially Western) Islam. But it never reaches the media or the American public.

I'll go back and read the article

 

[Dogtanian]

The Qur'an is not the problem. The Old Testament is much nastier than The Qur'an. The problem is that while Christians perhaps never really had a hard-set belief in the word of The Bible and by the 15th Century Christianity had begun the great Reformation which made The Bible a spiritual guide rather than a book of law, that isn't the case with Islam. Arabs in the Middle East to this very day take the Qur'an to be the only reliable source of knowledge and the only needed source since it contains all knowledge. Even in moderate Islam (or as moderate as Islam gets) Muslims still look to the Qur'an as the moral authority before they look to their own common sense morality that most of us take for granted. At no point has the thought ever occurred to me that I need to check in a holy book to find out whether rape and murder are justifiable or not. And the Qur'an in several places, supported by the hadith, says yes, sometimes rape and murder are justifiable. That's why the moderates of Islam have a hard time criticizing Islamists and jihadists.

 

[aris2chat]

The Qur'an is not the problem. The Old Testament is much nastier than The Qur'an. The problem is that while Christians perhaps never really had a hard-set belief in the word of The Bible and by the 15th Century Christianity had begun the great Reformation which made The Bible a spiritual guide rather than a book of law, that isn't the case with Islam. Arabs in the Middle East to this very day take the Qur'an to be the only reliable source of knowledge and the only needed source since it contains all knowledge. Even in moderate Islam (or as moderate as Islam gets) Muslims still look to the Qur'an as the moral authority before they look to their own common sense morality that most of us take for granted. At no point has the thought ever occurred to me that I need to check in a holy book to find out whether rape and murder are justifiable or not. And the Qur'an in several places, supported by the hadith, says yes, sometimes rape and murder are justifiable. That's why the moderates of Islam have a hard time criticizing Islamists and jihadists.

Sadly a grandfather raped his 2 yr old granddaughter in Egypt and the mother killed the girl to prevent any shame to the family the other day.

Hard for most people to grasp the morality of such acts by both of them

 

[Syriusly]

Who wants to step up and explain to ISIS that they are not Good Muslims??
Volunteers? Lets' hear the pitch.. Best NOT start with comparing them to the 3rd Reich. I'd use some of those "peaceful" Koran quotes -- if it was me interviewing for the job. I certainly am not qualified to argue with them.. I think you'll find their debate more invigorating than a day on USMB..

What would I do differently?

1) Acknowledge that only strongman dictators can hold together the various factions in an Arab country and keep them from killing each other over religious and tribal differences.. Stop creating vacuums of power in the MidEast -- one right after another.

2) Call the Saudis and the Pakis on their creation and export of the "weaponized version" of the Koran and militarized Islam..

3) Start identifying the "bad" muslims by their proper religious affiliations as Wahabists or Taliban or other mutant strains of the religion.

4) Support every possible Muslim outreach program that pledges to monitor and discourage the flourishing of these perverted factions within the Western nations. Enlist their help in explaining the difference between Mohammed's Islam and perverted Islam.

5) Withhold US Aid and impose economic sanctions on any country that uses state influence to propagate these strains of Islam throughout the world.

6) Use the funds instead to build Canadian and Venezuelan sources of oil so that the Saudi royalty no longer has us by the nuts..

Just off the top of my head. Sorry if any of that is politically incorrect..

Islam was and remains one the most effective religions in removing
barriers of race and nationality.

I don't have a problem with 1-6- though 1 is situational.
2- I agree with
3) If possible- I am reading about ISIS right now and that particular death cult doesn't seem to actually fit any affiliations- its sort of like identifying the Westboro Baptists Church with the Baptist Church......doesn't really fit- but identifying what the origins of that philosophy is sure.
4)- I agree
5) Economic sanctions are ineffective unless we can get other countries to go along- but in theory- sure.
6) Venezuela? As it is we need Saudi Arabian oil less than at any time probably in the last 50 years- Europe and Japan are the ones that Saudi Arabia really is more important too- the more we convert to electric and natural gas the less influence any country has over us.

But the general point- how we as a nation ignore how Saudi Arabia supports extremist Islamic schools is shameful.

Aside from that- I do not understand why the Islamic countries in the region are not coming together to defeat ISIS- ISIS is a threat to every regime/country in the region- Turkey worries more about Kurdish rebels than ISIS, Syria thinks of ISIS as no different than every other rebel group, Iraq is busy with its own problems- but the Gulf countries are doing almost nothing- ironically Iran probably is doing more than any of them by directly fighting against ISIS in Iraq.

 

[Syriusly]

Many of the summaries in the OP are completely adequate. Like the 5:33 you still claim is wrong. I contend it's more than adequate to describe the passage. And I gave you reasons and how that verse probably was misinterpreted by Muslim terrorists who know far better than we do -- what the various interpretations and context are...

Great- you gave me your interpretation on how Muslims may have interpreted the passage one way- but you still haven't found a single interpretation of 5:33 that supports what the OP claims 5:33 says.

I am okay with the idea that there may be an interpretation that agrees with the OP except for a few things:

• The OP 'neglected' to either quote the Koran- or provide citation to an interpretation of the Koran
• And none of the interpretations of the Koran I have found agree with the OP's 'interpretation'
• The OP abandoned the thread- and isn't even trying to defend the crap he posted.

Until someone comes up with an interpretation that actually supports the OP's assertion- his assertion is shown to be wrong

Great- you gave me your interpretation on how Muslims may have interpreted the passage one way- but you still haven't found a single interpretation of 5:33 that supports what the OP claims 5:33 says.

I am okay with the idea that there may be an interpretation that agrees with the OP except for a few things:

• The OP 'neglected' to either quote the Koran- or provide citation to an interpretation of the Koran
• And none of the interpretations of the Koran I have found agree with the OP's 'interpretation'
• The OP abandoned the thread- and isn't even trying to defend the crap he posted.

Until someone comes up with an interpretation that actually supports the OP's assertion- his assertion is shown to be wrong

And you just continue to post the same "wall of words" without considering the meanings or implications of them. I asked you specific questions --- which you ditched. I ASSUME because you think there's no reason to use your head to find what KIND of "mischief or evil" was punishable by death and torture.

I continue to confront the dishonesty of the OP- you continue to want to instead talk about how others MAY be misinterpreting the Koran the same way the OP did.

I am opposed to Islamic extremists who abuse Islam as an excuse to kill and injure people.

But I also oppose dishonest like the OP's which uses lies to vilify the faith of all Muslims.

Remember- the OP lied about the entire post- he said he had read the Koran- while in reality it was just a cut and paste from another website. The OP has bailed out from the thread- his Goebbels moment done- he doesn't even attempt to defend what he posted.

I took the time to look at 6 or 8 of the claims the OP made- and not one of them was an accurate and complete 'summary' of the text- all were intended to be inflammatory.

Words do matter. As you point out, violent Islamists will "interpret" the scriptures to justify their violence. The OP lies about the scriptures to justify his vilification of Islam

 

[flacaltenn]

Many of the summaries in the OP are completely adequate. Like the 5:33 you still claim is wrong. I contend it's more than adequate to describe the passage. And I gave you reasons and how that verse probably was misinterpreted by Muslim terrorists who know far better than we do -- what the various interpretations and context are...

Great- you gave me your interpretation on how Muslims may have interpreted the passage one way- but you still haven't found a single interpretation of 5:33 that supports what the OP claims 5:33 says.

I am okay with the idea that there may be an interpretation that agrees with the OP except for a few things:

• The OP 'neglected' to either quote the Koran- or provide citation to an interpretation of the Koran
• And none of the interpretations of the Koran I have found agree with the OP's 'interpretation'
• The OP abandoned the thread- and isn't even trying to defend the crap he posted.

Until someone comes up with an interpretation that actually supports the OP's assertion- his assertion is shown to be wrong

Great- you gave me your interpretation on how Muslims may have interpreted the passage one way- but you still haven't found a single interpretation of 5:33 that supports what the OP claims 5:33 says.

I am okay with the idea that there may be an interpretation that agrees with the OP except for a few things:

• The OP 'neglected' to either quote the Koran- or provide citation to an interpretation of the Koran
• And none of the interpretations of the Koran I have found agree with the OP's 'interpretation'
• The OP abandoned the thread- and isn't even trying to defend the crap he posted.

Until someone comes up with an interpretation that actually supports the OP's assertion- his assertion is shown to be wrong

And you just continue to post the same "wall of words" without considering the meanings or implications of them. I asked you specific questions --- which you ditched. I ASSUME because you think there's no reason to use your head to find what KIND of "mischief or evil" was punishable by death and torture.

I continue to confront the dishonesty of the OP- you continue to want to instead talk about how others MAY be misinterpreting the Koran the same way the OP did.

I am opposed to Islamic extremists who abuse Islam as an excuse to kill and injure people.

But I also oppose dishonest like the OP's which uses lies to vilify the faith of all Muslims.

Remember- the OP lied about the entire post- he said he had read the Koran- while in reality it was just a cut and paste from another website. The OP has bailed out from the thread- his Goebbels moment done- he doesn't even attempt to defend what he posted.

I took the time to look at 6 or 8 of the claims the OP made- and not one of them was an accurate and complete 'summary' of the text- all were intended to be inflammatory.

Words do matter. As you point out, violent Islamists will "interpret" the scriptures to justify their violence. The OP lies about the scriptures to justify his vilification of Islam

I continue to talk about how extremists are MAYBE (likely) misinterpreting the Koran -- because you and I are stalled about the word "criticize".. And you refuse address if that MIGHT BE -- "making evil or mischief" against Allah and his prophet..

If you won't consider what the words really mean from a number of (apparently) bad translations to English -- you must at least accept that the FOLLOWERS of these scriptures have spent much more time pondering the SCOPE of "mischief and evil against Allah and the Prophet" and accept that to mean violations of Islamic law or criticism of their God and prophet.

 

[flacaltenn]

The Qur'an is not the problem. The Old Testament is much nastier than The Qur'an. The problem is that while Christians perhaps never really had a hard-set belief in the word of The Bible and by the 15th Century Christianity had begun the great Reformation which made The Bible a spiritual guide rather than a book of law, that isn't the case with Islam. Arabs in the Middle East to this very day take the Qur'an to be the only reliable source of knowledge and the only needed source since it contains all knowledge. Even in moderate Islam (or as moderate as Islam gets) Muslims still look to the Qur'an as the moral authority before they look to their own common sense morality that most of us take for granted. At no point has the thought ever occurred to me that I need to check in a holy book to find out whether rape and murder are justifiable or not. And the Qur'an in several places, supported by the hadith, says yes, sometimes rape and murder are justifiable. That's why the moderates of Islam have a hard time criticizing Islamists and jihadists.

The hope would be that vast majority of moderates draw the line at putting words into the prophet's mouth that he didn't speak.. Or at least risk the conflict that would created if there was a larger more open debate about the more radical interpretations of Koran. Apparently -- they KNOW how rowdy and deadly that could become..

 

[Syriusly]

Great- you gave me your interpretation on how Muslims may have interpreted the passage one way- but you still haven't found a single interpretation of 5:33 that supports what the OP claims 5:33 says.

I am okay with the idea that there may be an interpretation that agrees with the OP except for a few things:

• The OP 'neglected' to either quote the Koran- or provide citation to an interpretation of the Koran
• And none of the interpretations of the Koran I have found agree with the OP's 'interpretation'
• The OP abandoned the thread- and isn't even trying to defend the crap he posted.

Until someone comes up with an interpretation that actually supports the OP's assertion- his assertion is shown to be wrong

Great- you gave me your interpretation on how Muslims may have interpreted the passage one way- but you still haven't found a single interpretation of 5:33 that supports what the OP claims 5:33 says.

I am okay with the idea that there may be an interpretation that agrees with the OP except for a few things:

• The OP 'neglected' to either quote the Koran- or provide citation to an interpretation of the Koran
• And none of the interpretations of the Koran I have found agree with the OP's 'interpretation'
• The OP abandoned the thread- and isn't even trying to defend the crap he posted.

Until someone comes up with an interpretation that actually supports the OP's assertion- his assertion is shown to be wrong

And you just continue to post the same "wall of words" without considering the meanings or implications of them. I asked you specific questions --- which you ditched. I ASSUME because you think there's no reason to use your head to find what KIND of "mischief or evil" was punishable by death and torture.

I continue to confront the dishonesty of the OP- you continue to want to instead talk about how others MAY be misinterpreting the Koran the same way the OP did.

I am opposed to Islamic extremists who abuse Islam as an excuse to kill and injure people.

But I also oppose dishonest like the OP's which uses lies to vilify the faith of all Muslims.

Remember- the OP lied about the entire post- he said he had read the Koran- while in reality it was just a cut and paste from another website. The OP has bailed out from the thread- his Goebbels moment done- he doesn't even attempt to defend what he posted.

I took the time to look at 6 or 8 of the claims the OP made- and not one of them was an accurate and complete 'summary' of the text- all were intended to be inflammatory.

Words do matter. As you point out, violent Islamists will "interpret" the scriptures to justify their violence. The OP lies about the scriptures to justify his vilification of Islam

I continue to talk about how extremists are MAYBE (likely) misinterpreting the Koran -- because you and I are stalled about the word "criticize".. And you refuse address if that MIGHT BE -- "making evil or mischief" against Allah and his prophet..
.

Oh I have no doubt that Muslim extremists misinterpret the Koran for their own purposes.

Just as the OP did.

 

[Dajjal]

The Qur'an is not the problem.

I disagree, the Quran is evil lies about God that incite Muslims to make war on unbelievers. As far as I am concerned The whole point and meaning of the Quran is that Muhammad made it all up to make people follow him and fight his battles. It promises paradise to those that die in battle and punishment from God for those that run away from great odds.
The Quran invites Muslims to die for Muhammad and fanatics like ISIS are still doing it today.