Montrovant
Fuzzy bears!
200,000 times? That seems high. Where does that number come from?
Kenosha: Trump declines to condemn violence from his supporters
- Thread starter Tom Paine 1949
- Start date
200,000 times? That seems high. Where does that number come from?
flacaltenn
Diamond Member
Lil Nicky Sandmann got a few hundred bucks a from WaPo to shut him up.
So you rag on a "mobster" who happened to be carrying a handgun, but deem a 17 year old who brings an AK-47 to be a patriot of some sort?
I have a standing bet - This idiot will be convicted of murder one. Month off the board?
THe handgun was a definite violation and the felon (last time I heard) has not been charged.. The situation surrounding the AK is more nebulous.. I was transporting 20 rifles and 3000 rounds of ammunition in a station wagon every weekend when I was 17.. My dad ran a Jr Rifle League for Civitans.. Got stopped once on the way to a match.. The cop just laugh hysterically... Told me to have a nice day...
I just want to folks to realize what kind of TROUBLE shows up "at a riot".. And to be even-handed about the details...
As for the bet -- I'm probably gonna be rehabbing in the USMB Moderator Asylum.. It's a health benefit for sacrificing my psyche here everyday.. And I think the white coats are gonna collect me and take me away about election time.. So that screws up the terms of the bet...
You live in "Hillbilly Hollywood, Tennessee"? Well flacal, that explains quite a bit!
The Country Music Homes Tour Buses come right down the road.. Mingle with the fans at the corner store.. Tell them I've toured with Willie Nelson.. Aint shabby..
flacaltenn
Diamond Member
I picked the CONSERVATIVE number. When I was shooting match competitions, my dad would get the NRA mag.. In a special section they would post press releases from newspapers across the country on REPORTED stories.. Maybe like 20 a month. So I got interested and researched it a lot..
2aguy has more recent links.
How to Count the Defensive Use of Guns
Neither survey calls nor media and police reports capture the importance of private gun ownership.
reason.com
Kleck says they found 222 bonafide DGUs directly via survey. The defender had to "state a specific crime they thought was being committed" and to have actually used the gun, even if just threateningly or by "verbally referring to the gun." Kleck insists the surveyors were scrupulous about eliminating any sketchy or questionable-seeming responses.
The study concluded, based only on stories said to have occurred to the speaker during the past year, and extrapolating from their results, that 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs happened in the U.S. a year.
Kleck points out this only means that about 1 percent of guns in the U.S. are thus used annually. In Armed, Kleck discusses a number of later surveys on DGUs, including one from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1994, that at least roughly back up his original estimates. He sums up that "there are now at least nineteen professional surveys, seventeen of them national in scope, that indicate huge numbers of defensive gun uses in the U.S."
The one huge outlier in finding so many DGUs is the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), also done 1993-94 by the Census Bureau on behalf of the Department of Justice, with a follow-up in 1998. That one found just 116,000—a near 95 percent drop from the NSDS survey result. The NCVS was designed to gather information, as the title indicates, on crime victimization in general with the DGU response a byproduct.
Kleck has suggested some reasons for the low NCVS number that don't rely on its DGU estimate actually being correct. Among them are that NCVS never explicitly asks about DGUs, merely asking those who say yes to having been a crime victim whether they "did or tried to do" something about it while it was happening; that people might be reluctant to admit to possibly criminal action on their own part (especially since the vast majority of crime victimizations in the survey occurred outside the home, where the possession's legality might be questionable) to a government surveyor after they've given their name and address (which they were asked to do); that they might consider a crime prevented by a DGU as not a crime they were victims of at all since it was uncompleted; and that there are some independent reasons to believe the very crime victimization numbers, which the DGUs are a subset of, are undercounted by the survey.
Defensive gun use - Wikipedia
Estimates of frequency
Estimates over the number of defensive gun uses vary wildly, depending on the study's definition of a defensive gun use, survey design, population, criteria, time-period studied, and other factors. Low-end estimates are in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 incidents per year, while high end estimates reach of 4.7 million per year. Discussion over the number and nature of DGU and the implications to gun control policy came to a head in the late 1990s.[2][3][4]
Estimates of DGU from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) are consistently lower than those from other studies. A 2000 study suggested that this may be because the NCVS measures different activities than the other surveys do.[5]
The National Self-Defense Survey and the NCVS, vary in their methods, time-frames covered, and questions asked.[6] DGU questions were asked of all the NSDS sample.[7] Due to screening questions in the NCVS survey, only a minority of the NCVS sample were asked a DGU question.[4]
Lower-end estimates include that by David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, which estimated approximately 55,000–80,000 such uses each year.[8][9]
Another survey including DGU questions was the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. in 1997 NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.[4] Another estimate has estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.[1]:65[2]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The surveys all ask slightly different questions.. Makes a huge diff if just PRODUCING a weapon sends the would be criminal trotting away.. Because from what I've read, that's more than 50 or 60% of DGUs... Most CCW holders don't count just lifting their shirt as a DGU..
Tumblin Tumbleweed
Platinum Member
- Mar 16, 2015
- 22,781
- 8,015
- 465
Pulled right out of the rectum, I reckon.
Daryl Hunt
Your Worst Nightmare
- Banned
- #245
I picked the CONSERVATIVE number. When I was shooting match competitions, my dad would get the NRA mag.. In a special section they would post press releases from newspapers across the country on REPORTED stories.. Maybe like 20 a month. So I got interested and researched it a lot..
2aguy has more recent links.
How to Count the Defensive Use of Guns
Neither survey calls nor media and police reports capture the importance of private gun ownership.
Kleck says they found 222 bonafide DGUs directly via survey. The defender had to "state a specific crime they thought was being committed" and to have actually used the gun, even if just threateningly or by "verbally referring to the gun." Kleck insists the surveyors were scrupulous about eliminating any sketchy or questionable-seeming responses.
The study concluded, based only on stories said to have occurred to the speaker during the past year, and extrapolating from their results, that 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs happened in the U.S. a year.
Kleck points out this only means that about 1 percent of guns in the U.S. are thus used annually. In Armed, Kleck discusses a number of later surveys on DGUs, including one from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1994, that at least roughly back up his original estimates. He sums up that "there are now at least nineteen professional surveys, seventeen of them national in scope, that indicate huge numbers of defensive gun uses in the U.S."
The one huge outlier in finding so many DGUs is the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), also done 1993-94 by the Census Bureau on behalf of the Department of Justice, with a follow-up in 1998. That one found just 116,000—a near 95 percent drop from the NSDS survey result. The NCVS was designed to gather information, as the title indicates, on crime victimization in general with the DGU response a byproduct.
Kleck has suggested some reasons for the low NCVS number that don't rely on its DGU estimate actually being correct. Among them are that NCVS never explicitly asks about DGUs, merely asking those who say yes to having been a crime victim whether they "did or tried to do" something about it while it was happening; that people might be reluctant to admit to possibly criminal action on their own part (especially since the vast majority of crime victimizations in the survey occurred outside the home, where the possession's legality might be questionable) to a government surveyor after they've given their name and address (which they were asked to do); that they might consider a crime prevented by a DGU as not a crime they were victims of at all since it was uncompleted; and that there are some independent reasons to believe the very crime victimization numbers, which the DGUs are a subset of, are undercounted by the survey.
Defensive gun use - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Estimates of frequency
Estimates over the number of defensive gun uses vary wildly, depending on the study's definition of a defensive gun use, survey design, population, criteria, time-period studied, and other factors. Low-end estimates are in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 incidents per year, while high end estimates reach of 4.7 million per year. Discussion over the number and nature of DGU and the implications to gun control policy came to a head in the late 1990s.[2][3][4]
Estimates of DGU from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) are consistently lower than those from other studies. A 2000 study suggested that this may be because the NCVS measures different activities than the other surveys do.[5]
The National Self-Defense Survey and the NCVS, vary in their methods, time-frames covered, and questions asked.[6] DGU questions were asked of all the NSDS sample.[7] Due to screening questions in the NCVS survey, only a minority of the NCVS sample were asked a DGU question.[4]
Lower-end estimates include that by David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, which estimated approximately 55,000–80,000 such uses each year.[8][9]
Another survey including DGU questions was the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. in 1997 NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.[4] Another estimate has estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.[1]:65[2]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The surveys all ask slightly different questions.. Makes a huge diff if just PRODUCING a weapon sends the would be criminal trotting away.. Because from what I've read, that's more than 50 or 60% of DGUs... Most CCW holders don't count just lifting their shirt as a DGU..
You made a severe mistake in using anything that Kleck used as a source. I won't go into why because I really hate repeating myself. But kleck is a bad source with severely inflated figures.
You really want to go into this one?
\
Dana7360
Diamond Member
- Aug 6, 2014
- 15,147
- 13,596
- 2,405
There
There is video of the first shooting, too. Rittenhouse was being chased in that video, and the man threw something at him, before he shot."Declined to condemn"...was he asked to condemn the violence? I think the man is a narcissist con-man, but from the video I've seen, Rittenhouse WAS running from people and he WAS attacked before he shot them. There may be more information that would change things, but from what I've seen so far, I'd only "condemn violence from his supporters" in the sense that the kid shouldn't have been there, and armed, at all.
That video is taken AFTER he shot and killed a person.
He shot three people that night. Two of them died. One of them is in the hospital.
The only reason he was being chased is he shot and killed someone. The protesters were trying to subdue him because the police didn't do anything about it and the protesters didn't want more people killed or harmed.
In fact after he had shot three people, killing two of them, the police let him walk right by them, get in his car, drive back to Illinois and go home.
Of course we don’t have all the details, but in neither case did Rittenhouse appear to be the aggressor, and both videos seem to show Rittenhouse attacked before firing.
I have not seen that video. Do you have a link to it?
The whole thing stinks as far as I'm concerned.
I saw it as part of this video:
This one is shorter and also has the video I mentioned, starting at about 1:50 :
The video doesn't show why the shots rang out. Just that shots rang out. Then we see the shooter running across the parking lot. There is nothing about anyone throwing anything at him or what happened before the shots rang out.
The object was thrown at him AFTER he killed a person not before. I'm sure that object was thrown at him because he had just shot and killed someone. He was being chased because he shot and killed someone.
Your video doesn't show him being chased, harassed or threatened or anything before he killed that man. In fact it shows him shouting at the police for water and the police saying they appreciate him for being there.
As far as I can see, he was being chased in the street because he had just shot and killed someone.
He was a child in an adult situation he had no business being involved in.
The problem with that is two people are dead and one person is in the hospital injured by that child with the weapon he had no business having in public.
flacaltenn
Diamond Member
I picked the CONSERVATIVE number. When I was shooting match competitions, my dad would get the NRA mag.. In a special section they would post press releases from newspapers across the country on REPORTED stories.. Maybe like 20 a month. So I got interested and researched it a lot..
2aguy has more recent links.
How to Count the Defensive Use of Guns
Neither survey calls nor media and police reports capture the importance of private gun ownership.
Kleck says they found 222 bonafide DGUs directly via survey. The defender had to "state a specific crime they thought was being committed" and to have actually used the gun, even if just threateningly or by "verbally referring to the gun." Kleck insists the surveyors were scrupulous about eliminating any sketchy or questionable-seeming responses.
The study concluded, based only on stories said to have occurred to the speaker during the past year, and extrapolating from their results, that 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs happened in the U.S. a year.
Kleck points out this only means that about 1 percent of guns in the U.S. are thus used annually. In Armed, Kleck discusses a number of later surveys on DGUs, including one from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1994, that at least roughly back up his original estimates. He sums up that "there are now at least nineteen professional surveys, seventeen of them national in scope, that indicate huge numbers of defensive gun uses in the U.S."
The one huge outlier in finding so many DGUs is the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), also done 1993-94 by the Census Bureau on behalf of the Department of Justice, with a follow-up in 1998. That one found just 116,000—a near 95 percent drop from the NSDS survey result. The NCVS was designed to gather information, as the title indicates, on crime victimization in general with the DGU response a byproduct.
Kleck has suggested some reasons for the low NCVS number that don't rely on its DGU estimate actually being correct. Among them are that NCVS never explicitly asks about DGUs, merely asking those who say yes to having been a crime victim whether they "did or tried to do" something about it while it was happening; that people might be reluctant to admit to possibly criminal action on their own part (especially since the vast majority of crime victimizations in the survey occurred outside the home, where the possession's legality might be questionable) to a government surveyor after they've given their name and address (which they were asked to do); that they might consider a crime prevented by a DGU as not a crime they were victims of at all since it was uncompleted; and that there are some independent reasons to believe the very crime victimization numbers, which the DGUs are a subset of, are undercounted by the survey.
Defensive gun use - Wikipedia
Estimates of frequency
Estimates over the number of defensive gun uses vary wildly, depending on the study's definition of a defensive gun use, survey design, population, criteria, time-period studied, and other factors. Low-end estimates are in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 incidents per year, while high end estimates reach of 4.7 million per year. Discussion over the number and nature of DGU and the implications to gun control policy came to a head in the late 1990s.[2][3][4]
Estimates of DGU from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) are consistently lower than those from other studies. A 2000 study suggested that this may be because the NCVS measures different activities than the other surveys do.[5]
The National Self-Defense Survey and the NCVS, vary in their methods, time-frames covered, and questions asked.[6] DGU questions were asked of all the NSDS sample.[7] Due to screening questions in the NCVS survey, only a minority of the NCVS sample were asked a DGU question.[4]
Lower-end estimates include that by David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, which estimated approximately 55,000–80,000 such uses each year.[8][9]
Another survey including DGU questions was the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. in 1997 NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.[4] Another estimate has estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.[1]:65[2]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The surveys all ask slightly different questions.. Makes a huge diff if just PRODUCING a weapon sends the would be criminal trotting away.. Because from what I've read, that's more than 50 or 60% of DGUs... Most CCW holders don't count just lifting their shirt as a DGU..
You made a severe mistake in using anything that Kleck used as a source. I won't go into why because I really hate repeating myself. But kleck is a bad source with severely inflated figures.
You really want to go into this one?
\
I dont censor sources. I use the input and move on to collecting other input.. In this day and age if you started "CANCELLING" sources you don't like -- you'll have NO FUCKING clue what you're talking about..
The Wiki article gives you great over-view of the estimates... I did OK..
flacaltenn
Diamond Member
See you didn't bother to read the Wiki entry... Head up rectum syndrome -- I reckon...
Tumblin Tumbleweed
Platinum Member
- Mar 16, 2015
- 22,781
- 8,015
- 465
You're a political extremist, you ratfuck. I've already screen capped your 'moderator' bullshit, even after you tried deleting the evidence. Welcome to the six o'clock news, idiot. You're baised. You're a right winger idiot that had no business 'moderating' a political message board in the first place. I'm going to see just how far you'll go to keep that on the down low, you fraud. Welcome to being kneecapped by social media, I guess.
Daryl Hunt
Your Worst Nightmare
- Banned
- #250
I picked the CONSERVATIVE number. When I was shooting match competitions, my dad would get the NRA mag.. In a special section they would post press releases from newspapers across the country on REPORTED stories.. Maybe like 20 a month. So I got interested and researched it a lot..
2aguy has more recent links.
How to Count the Defensive Use of Guns
Neither survey calls nor media and police reports capture the importance of private gun ownership.
Kleck says they found 222 bonafide DGUs directly via survey. The defender had to "state a specific crime they thought was being committed" and to have actually used the gun, even if just threateningly or by "verbally referring to the gun." Kleck insists the surveyors were scrupulous about eliminating any sketchy or questionable-seeming responses.
The study concluded, based only on stories said to have occurred to the speaker during the past year, and extrapolating from their results, that 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs happened in the U.S. a year.
Kleck points out this only means that about 1 percent of guns in the U.S. are thus used annually. In Armed, Kleck discusses a number of later surveys on DGUs, including one from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1994, that at least roughly back up his original estimates. He sums up that "there are now at least nineteen professional surveys, seventeen of them national in scope, that indicate huge numbers of defensive gun uses in the U.S."
The one huge outlier in finding so many DGUs is the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), also done 1993-94 by the Census Bureau on behalf of the Department of Justice, with a follow-up in 1998. That one found just 116,000—a near 95 percent drop from the NSDS survey result. The NCVS was designed to gather information, as the title indicates, on crime victimization in general with the DGU response a byproduct.
Kleck has suggested some reasons for the low NCVS number that don't rely on its DGU estimate actually being correct. Among them are that NCVS never explicitly asks about DGUs, merely asking those who say yes to having been a crime victim whether they "did or tried to do" something about it while it was happening; that people might be reluctant to admit to possibly criminal action on their own part (especially since the vast majority of crime victimizations in the survey occurred outside the home, where the possession's legality might be questionable) to a government surveyor after they've given their name and address (which they were asked to do); that they might consider a crime prevented by a DGU as not a crime they were victims of at all since it was uncompleted; and that there are some independent reasons to believe the very crime victimization numbers, which the DGUs are a subset of, are undercounted by the survey.
Defensive gun use - Wikipedia
Estimates of frequency
Estimates over the number of defensive gun uses vary wildly, depending on the study's definition of a defensive gun use, survey design, population, criteria, time-period studied, and other factors. Low-end estimates are in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 incidents per year, while high end estimates reach of 4.7 million per year. Discussion over the number and nature of DGU and the implications to gun control policy came to a head in the late 1990s.[2][3][4]
Estimates of DGU from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) are consistently lower than those from other studies. A 2000 study suggested that this may be because the NCVS measures different activities than the other surveys do.[5]
The National Self-Defense Survey and the NCVS, vary in their methods, time-frames covered, and questions asked.[6] DGU questions were asked of all the NSDS sample.[7] Due to screening questions in the NCVS survey, only a minority of the NCVS sample were asked a DGU question.[4]
Lower-end estimates include that by David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, which estimated approximately 55,000–80,000 such uses each year.[8][9]
Another survey including DGU questions was the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. in 1997 NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.[4] Another estimate has estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.[1]:65[2]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The surveys all ask slightly different questions.. Makes a huge diff if just PRODUCING a weapon sends the would be criminal trotting away.. Because from what I've read, that's more than 50 or 60% of DGUs... Most CCW holders don't count just lifting their shirt as a DGU..
You made a severe mistake in using anything that Kleck used as a source. I won't go into why because I really hate repeating myself. But kleck is a bad source with severely inflated figures.
You really want to go into this one?
\
I dont censor sources. I use the input and move on to collecting other input.. In this day and age if you started "CANCELLING" sources you don't like -- you'll have NO FUCKING clue what you're talking about..
The Wiki article gives you great over-view of the estimates... I did OK..
You asked for it.
The Contradictions of the Kleck Study
According to Kleck, there were 2.5 million defensive uses of Guns from 1987 to 1992. Wow. That would mean that there are no safe places in the United States and even going to the corner market, you are going to have to shoot your way there and back at least once a week. Every home would need an APC parked in a reinforced Garage.
The error to Kleck was, he took the the DOJ report and used ALL US episodes including Police and Military as part of his total. If you include those, his figures are correct. But when you take them out, the figures are miniscule for civilians. DS1, alone, would make up the majority of the total.
Kleck reported 2.5 million for 1987 to 1992 but the DOJ reported 83,000 (about) for the same time period. I suggest you research your cites. They may be as full of shit as 2boy and his cites are. And since when is Wiki used as a bonafined source for anything considering if I wanted to I can go in and edit it to read anything I want it to read.
Please stop making shit up.
Dale Smith
Platinum Member
The DOJ is incorporated, Daryl Klunt and I don't trust anything they have to say. A sorry POS like yourself would claim that my mom didn't have the right to be armed when a rapist broke through our back door when I was seven that was later convicted of raping and killing an elderly woman on his block. Seems that this rapist lived right across the alley from us. I don't NEED your permission to have a weapon of my choice. I don't NEED justification as to why I own them. It is my right to have them. If you are so against the 2nd amendment and wish to engage in "door to door" searches to take firearms from Americans? Lead the way, you gutless turd. You are only fooling yourself if you believe that true Americans will meekly hand them over without a fight and with plenty of bloodshed. There are still too many Americans that know the history of an unarmed citizenry and their fate. You really are one disgusting piece of shit.
I picked the CONSERVATIVE number. When I was shooting match competitions, my dad would get the NRA mag.. In a special section they would post press releases from newspapers across the country on REPORTED stories.. Maybe like 20 a month. So I got interested and researched it a lot..
2aguy has more recent links.
How to Count the Defensive Use of Guns
Neither survey calls nor media and police reports capture the importance of private gun ownership.
Kleck says they found 222 bonafide DGUs directly via survey. The defender had to "state a specific crime they thought was being committed" and to have actually used the gun, even if just threateningly or by "verbally referring to the gun." Kleck insists the surveyors were scrupulous about eliminating any sketchy or questionable-seeming responses.
The study concluded, based only on stories said to have occurred to the speaker during the past year, and extrapolating from their results, that 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs happened in the U.S. a year.
Kleck points out this only means that about 1 percent of guns in the U.S. are thus used annually. In Armed, Kleck discusses a number of later surveys on DGUs, including one from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1994, that at least roughly back up his original estimates. He sums up that "there are now at least nineteen professional surveys, seventeen of them national in scope, that indicate huge numbers of defensive gun uses in the U.S."
The one huge outlier in finding so many DGUs is the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), also done 1993-94 by the Census Bureau on behalf of the Department of Justice, with a follow-up in 1998. That one found just 116,000—a near 95 percent drop from the NSDS survey result. The NCVS was designed to gather information, as the title indicates, on crime victimization in general with the DGU response a byproduct.
Kleck has suggested some reasons for the low NCVS number that don't rely on its DGU estimate actually being correct. Among them are that NCVS never explicitly asks about DGUs, merely asking those who say yes to having been a crime victim whether they "did or tried to do" something about it while it was happening; that people might be reluctant to admit to possibly criminal action on their own part (especially since the vast majority of crime victimizations in the survey occurred outside the home, where the possession's legality might be questionable) to a government surveyor after they've given their name and address (which they were asked to do); that they might consider a crime prevented by a DGU as not a crime they were victims of at all since it was uncompleted; and that there are some independent reasons to believe the very crime victimization numbers, which the DGUs are a subset of, are undercounted by the survey.
Defensive gun use - Wikipedia
Estimates of frequency
Estimates over the number of defensive gun uses vary wildly, depending on the study's definition of a defensive gun use, survey design, population, criteria, time-period studied, and other factors. Low-end estimates are in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 incidents per year, while high end estimates reach of 4.7 million per year. Discussion over the number and nature of DGU and the implications to gun control policy came to a head in the late 1990s.[2][3][4]
Estimates of DGU from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) are consistently lower than those from other studies. A 2000 study suggested that this may be because the NCVS measures different activities than the other surveys do.[5]
The National Self-Defense Survey and the NCVS, vary in their methods, time-frames covered, and questions asked.[6] DGU questions were asked of all the NSDS sample.[7] Due to screening questions in the NCVS survey, only a minority of the NCVS sample were asked a DGU question.[4]
Lower-end estimates include that by David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, which estimated approximately 55,000–80,000 such uses each year.[8][9]
Another survey including DGU questions was the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. in 1997 NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.[4] Another estimate has estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.[1]:65[2]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The surveys all ask slightly different questions.. Makes a huge diff if just PRODUCING a weapon sends the would be criminal trotting away.. Because from what I've read, that's more than 50 or 60% of DGUs... Most CCW holders don't count just lifting their shirt as a DGU..
You made a severe mistake in using anything that Kleck used as a source. I won't go into why because I really hate repeating myself. But kleck is a bad source with severely inflated figures.
You really want to go into this one?
\
I dont censor sources. I use the input and move on to collecting other input.. In this day and age if you started "CANCELLING" sources you don't like -- you'll have NO FUCKING clue what you're talking about..
The Wiki article gives you great over-view of the estimates... I did OK..
You asked for it.
The Contradictions of the Kleck Study
According to Kleck, there were 2.5 million defensive uses of Guns from 1987 to 1992. Wow. That would mean that there are no safe places in the United States and even going to the corner market, you are going to have to shoot your way there and back at least once a week. Every home would need an APC parked in a reinforced Garage.
The error to Kleck was, he took the the DOJ report and used ALL US episodes including Police and Military as part of his total. If you include those, his figures are correct. But when you take them out, the figures are miniscule for civilians. DS1, alone, would make up the majority of the total.
Kleck reported 2.5 million for 1987 to 1992 but the DOJ reported 83,000 (about) for the same time period. I suggest you research your cites. They may be as full of shit as 2boy and his cites are. And since when is Wiki used as a bonafined source for anything considering if I wanted to I can go in and edit it to read anything I want it to read.
Please stop making shit up.
Molon Labe, asshole..........
Dale Smith
Platinum Member
Tumbles, you stupid fuck, flacaltenn deleted 5 of my posts yesterday and he was well within his duties to do so even if I disagreed. You can piss and moan about "bias" all you want and you (as usual) will be wrong.....being wrong is what you do best...that and being one butthurt disgusting sack of shit. You totally suck at making a coherent argument and your posts are not
informative or amusing even by accident. You are ruled by emotion and common sense has no
place in your little skewed vision of the world.
Hope this.....nah, just go fuck yourself.
2aguy
Diamond Member
- Jul 19, 2014
- 112,251
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Here is the available list of research into gun self defense in this country...note that the research has been done by both private and government research groups, with the CDC and the Department of Justice conducting their own research....
A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense
GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys
Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)
Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)
CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million
--------------------
Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)
Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)
Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)
Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])
Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
2aguy
Diamond Member
- Jul 19, 2014
- 112,251
- 52,473
- 2,290
I picked the CONSERVATIVE number. When I was shooting match competitions, my dad would get the NRA mag.. In a special section they would post press releases from newspapers across the country on REPORTED stories.. Maybe like 20 a month. So I got interested and researched it a lot..
2aguy has more recent links.
How to Count the Defensive Use of Guns
Neither survey calls nor media and police reports capture the importance of private gun ownership.
Kleck says they found 222 bonafide DGUs directly via survey. The defender had to "state a specific crime they thought was being committed" and to have actually used the gun, even if just threateningly or by "verbally referring to the gun." Kleck insists the surveyors were scrupulous about eliminating any sketchy or questionable-seeming responses.
The study concluded, based only on stories said to have occurred to the speaker during the past year, and extrapolating from their results, that 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs happened in the U.S. a year.
Kleck points out this only means that about 1 percent of guns in the U.S. are thus used annually. In Armed, Kleck discusses a number of later surveys on DGUs, including one from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1994, that at least roughly back up his original estimates. He sums up that "there are now at least nineteen professional surveys, seventeen of them national in scope, that indicate huge numbers of defensive gun uses in the U.S."
The one huge outlier in finding so many DGUs is the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), also done 1993-94 by the Census Bureau on behalf of the Department of Justice, with a follow-up in 1998. That one found just 116,000—a near 95 percent drop from the NSDS survey result. The NCVS was designed to gather information, as the title indicates, on crime victimization in general with the DGU response a byproduct.
Kleck has suggested some reasons for the low NCVS number that don't rely on its DGU estimate actually being correct. Among them are that NCVS never explicitly asks about DGUs, merely asking those who say yes to having been a crime victim whether they "did or tried to do" something about it while it was happening; that people might be reluctant to admit to possibly criminal action on their own part (especially since the vast majority of crime victimizations in the survey occurred outside the home, where the possession's legality might be questionable) to a government surveyor after they've given their name and address (which they were asked to do); that they might consider a crime prevented by a DGU as not a crime they were victims of at all since it was uncompleted; and that there are some independent reasons to believe the very crime victimization numbers, which the DGUs are a subset of, are undercounted by the survey.
Defensive gun use - Wikipedia
Estimates of frequency
Estimates over the number of defensive gun uses vary wildly, depending on the study's definition of a defensive gun use, survey design, population, criteria, time-period studied, and other factors. Low-end estimates are in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 incidents per year, while high end estimates reach of 4.7 million per year. Discussion over the number and nature of DGU and the implications to gun control policy came to a head in the late 1990s.[2][3][4]
Estimates of DGU from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) are consistently lower than those from other studies. A 2000 study suggested that this may be because the NCVS measures different activities than the other surveys do.[5]
The National Self-Defense Survey and the NCVS, vary in their methods, time-frames covered, and questions asked.[6] DGU questions were asked of all the NSDS sample.[7] Due to screening questions in the NCVS survey, only a minority of the NCVS sample were asked a DGU question.[4]
Lower-end estimates include that by David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, which estimated approximately 55,000–80,000 such uses each year.[8][9]
Another survey including DGU questions was the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. in 1997 NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.[4] Another estimate has estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.[1]:65[2]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The surveys all ask slightly different questions.. Makes a huge diff if just PRODUCING a weapon sends the would be criminal trotting away.. Because from what I've read, that's more than 50 or 60% of DGUs... Most CCW holders don't count just lifting their shirt as a DGU..
You made a severe mistake in using anything that Kleck used as a source. I won't go into why because I really hate repeating myself. But kleck is a bad source with severely inflated figures.
You really want to go into this one?
\
No, his figures are not inflated...you dumb ass....his research was ground breaking and both the Centers for Disease Control and the Department of Justice duplicated his research and came up with 1.1 million defensive gun uses and 1.5 million defensive gun uses each year.....and they are the two government agencies, then you include the private research groups and you get high numbers from them as well....
A quick guide to the studies and the numbers.....the full lay out of what was studied by each study is in the links....
The name of the group doing the study, the year of the study, the number of defensive gun uses and if police and military defensive gun uses are included.....notice the bill clinton and obama defensive gun use research is highlighted.....
GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense
GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys
Field...1976....3,052,717 ( no cops, no military)
DMIa 1978...2,141,512 ( no cops, no military)
L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,68 ( no cops, no military)
Kleck......1994...2.5 million ( no cops, no military)
CDC...1996-1998... 1.1 million averaged over those years.( no cops, no military)
Obama's CDC....2013....500,000--3million
--------------------
Bordua...1977...1,414,544
DMIb...1978...1,098,409 ( no cops, no military)
Hart...1981...1.797,461 ( no cops, no military)
Mauser...1990...1,487,342 ( no cops,no military)
Gallup...1993...1,621,377 ( no cops, no military)
DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million ( the bill clinton study)
Journal of Quantitative Criminology--- 989,883 times per year."
(Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18])
Paper: "Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment." By David McDowall and others. Journal of Quantitative Criminology, March 2000. Measuring Civilian Defensive Firearm Use: A Methodological Experiment - Springer
-------------------------------------------
Ohio...1982...771,043
Gallup...1991...777,152
Tarrance... 1994... 764,036 (no cops, no military)
Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
2aguy
Diamond Member
- Jul 19, 2014
- 112,251
- 52,473
- 2,290
I picked the CONSERVATIVE number. When I was shooting match competitions, my dad would get the NRA mag.. In a special section they would post press releases from newspapers across the country on REPORTED stories.. Maybe like 20 a month. So I got interested and researched it a lot..
2aguy has more recent links.
How to Count the Defensive Use of Guns
Neither survey calls nor media and police reports capture the importance of private gun ownership.
Kleck says they found 222 bonafide DGUs directly via survey. The defender had to "state a specific crime they thought was being committed" and to have actually used the gun, even if just threateningly or by "verbally referring to the gun." Kleck insists the surveyors were scrupulous about eliminating any sketchy or questionable-seeming responses.
The study concluded, based only on stories said to have occurred to the speaker during the past year, and extrapolating from their results, that 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs happened in the U.S. a year.
Kleck points out this only means that about 1 percent of guns in the U.S. are thus used annually. In Armed, Kleck discusses a number of later surveys on DGUs, including one from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1994, that at least roughly back up his original estimates. He sums up that "there are now at least nineteen professional surveys, seventeen of them national in scope, that indicate huge numbers of defensive gun uses in the U.S."
The one huge outlier in finding so many DGUs is the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), also done 1993-94 by the Census Bureau on behalf of the Department of Justice, with a follow-up in 1998. That one found just 116,000—a near 95 percent drop from the NSDS survey result. The NCVS was designed to gather information, as the title indicates, on crime victimization in general with the DGU response a byproduct.
Kleck has suggested some reasons for the low NCVS number that don't rely on its DGU estimate actually being correct. Among them are that NCVS never explicitly asks about DGUs, merely asking those who say yes to having been a crime victim whether they "did or tried to do" something about it while it was happening; that people might be reluctant to admit to possibly criminal action on their own part (especially since the vast majority of crime victimizations in the survey occurred outside the home, where the possession's legality might be questionable) to a government surveyor after they've given their name and address (which they were asked to do); that they might consider a crime prevented by a DGU as not a crime they were victims of at all since it was uncompleted; and that there are some independent reasons to believe the very crime victimization numbers, which the DGUs are a subset of, are undercounted by the survey.
Defensive gun use - Wikipedia
Estimates of frequency
Estimates over the number of defensive gun uses vary wildly, depending on the study's definition of a defensive gun use, survey design, population, criteria, time-period studied, and other factors. Low-end estimates are in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 incidents per year, while high end estimates reach of 4.7 million per year. Discussion over the number and nature of DGU and the implications to gun control policy came to a head in the late 1990s.[2][3][4]
Estimates of DGU from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) are consistently lower than those from other studies. A 2000 study suggested that this may be because the NCVS measures different activities than the other surveys do.[5]
The National Self-Defense Survey and the NCVS, vary in their methods, time-frames covered, and questions asked.[6] DGU questions were asked of all the NSDS sample.[7] Due to screening questions in the NCVS survey, only a minority of the NCVS sample were asked a DGU question.[4]
Lower-end estimates include that by David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, which estimated approximately 55,000–80,000 such uses each year.[8][9]
Another survey including DGU questions was the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. in 1997 NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.[4] Another estimate has estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.[1]:65[2]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The surveys all ask slightly different questions.. Makes a huge diff if just PRODUCING a weapon sends the would be criminal trotting away.. Because from what I've read, that's more than 50 or 60% of DGUs... Most CCW holders don't count just lifting their shirt as a DGU..
You made a severe mistake in using anything that Kleck used as a source. I won't go into why because I really hate repeating myself. But kleck is a bad source with severely inflated figures.
You really want to go into this one?
\
I dont censor sources. I use the input and move on to collecting other input.. In this day and age if you started "CANCELLING" sources you don't like -- you'll have NO FUCKING clue what you're talking about..
The Wiki article gives you great over-view of the estimates... I did OK..
You asked for it.
The Contradictions of the Kleck Study
According to Kleck, there were 2.5 million defensive uses of Guns from 1987 to 1992. Wow. That would mean that there are no safe places in the United States and even going to the corner market, you are going to have to shoot your way there and back at least once a week. Every home would need an APC parked in a reinforced Garage.
The error to Kleck was, he took the the DOJ report and used ALL US episodes including Police and Military as part of his total. If you include those, his figures are correct. But when you take them out, the figures are miniscule for civilians. DS1, alone, would make up the majority of the total.
Kleck reported 2.5 million for 1987 to 1992 but the DOJ reported 83,000 (about) for the same time period. I suggest you research your cites. They may be as full of shit as 2boy and his cites are. And since when is Wiki used as a bonafined source for anything considering if I wanted to I can go in and edit it to read anything I want it to read.
Please stop making shit up.
The error to Kleck was, he took the the DOJ report and used ALL US episodes including Police and Military as part of his total.
Right there...your source lied.......Kleck specifically did not use millitary or police actions in his research...you keep saying he did, when he states in his research those were disqualified in his study.........
The problem is that anti-gun extremist researchers can't get the facts and truth to support their anti-gun emotionalism....so they make things up....and today, with the internet, you can't get away with it anymore........
For example, david hemmenway......he uses the National Crime Victimization Survey to get his 80,000 defensive gun use number.......because that is the only crime survey to get the number that low...
How does it do that? The NCVS does not directly ask any question about self defense gun use.......the word gun is not even in their questions. They get the 80,000 number when the respondents bring it up themselves....so right there, even when they don't even ask about gun use, the number gets as high as 80,000.....all the other surveys.....including the CDC and the Department of Justice specifically ask respondents direct questions about using a gun for self defense...
hemmenway is the hack, not Kleck...
Kleck thinks the National Crime Victimization Survey disagrees so much with his own survey because NCVS researchers aren't looking for DGUs, or even asking about them in so many words. The survey merely asks those who said "yes" to having been a crime victim whether they "did or tried to do" something about it. (You might not consider yourself a "victim" of a crime you have successfully prevented.)
2aguy
Diamond Member
- Jul 19, 2014
- 112,251
- 52,473
- 2,290
I picked the CONSERVATIVE number. When I was shooting match competitions, my dad would get the NRA mag.. In a special section they would post press releases from newspapers across the country on REPORTED stories.. Maybe like 20 a month. So I got interested and researched it a lot..
2aguy has more recent links.
How to Count the Defensive Use of Guns
Neither survey calls nor media and police reports capture the importance of private gun ownership.
Kleck says they found 222 bonafide DGUs directly via survey. The defender had to "state a specific crime they thought was being committed" and to have actually used the gun, even if just threateningly or by "verbally referring to the gun." Kleck insists the surveyors were scrupulous about eliminating any sketchy or questionable-seeming responses.
The study concluded, based only on stories said to have occurred to the speaker during the past year, and extrapolating from their results, that 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs happened in the U.S. a year.
Kleck points out this only means that about 1 percent of guns in the U.S. are thus used annually. In Armed, Kleck discusses a number of later surveys on DGUs, including one from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1994, that at least roughly back up his original estimates. He sums up that "there are now at least nineteen professional surveys, seventeen of them national in scope, that indicate huge numbers of defensive gun uses in the U.S."
The one huge outlier in finding so many DGUs is the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), also done 1993-94 by the Census Bureau on behalf of the Department of Justice, with a follow-up in 1998. That one found just 116,000—a near 95 percent drop from the NSDS survey result. The NCVS was designed to gather information, as the title indicates, on crime victimization in general with the DGU response a byproduct.
Kleck has suggested some reasons for the low NCVS number that don't rely on its DGU estimate actually being correct. Among them are that NCVS never explicitly asks about DGUs, merely asking those who say yes to having been a crime victim whether they "did or tried to do" something about it while it was happening; that people might be reluctant to admit to possibly criminal action on their own part (especially since the vast majority of crime victimizations in the survey occurred outside the home, where the possession's legality might be questionable) to a government surveyor after they've given their name and address (which they were asked to do); that they might consider a crime prevented by a DGU as not a crime they were victims of at all since it was uncompleted; and that there are some independent reasons to believe the very crime victimization numbers, which the DGUs are a subset of, are undercounted by the survey.
Defensive gun use - Wikipedia
Estimates of frequency
Estimates over the number of defensive gun uses vary wildly, depending on the study's definition of a defensive gun use, survey design, population, criteria, time-period studied, and other factors. Low-end estimates are in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 incidents per year, while high end estimates reach of 4.7 million per year. Discussion over the number and nature of DGU and the implications to gun control policy came to a head in the late 1990s.[2][3][4]
Estimates of DGU from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) are consistently lower than those from other studies. A 2000 study suggested that this may be because the NCVS measures different activities than the other surveys do.[5]
The National Self-Defense Survey and the NCVS, vary in their methods, time-frames covered, and questions asked.[6] DGU questions were asked of all the NSDS sample.[7] Due to screening questions in the NCVS survey, only a minority of the NCVS sample were asked a DGU question.[4]
Lower-end estimates include that by David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, which estimated approximately 55,000–80,000 such uses each year.[8][9]
Another survey including DGU questions was the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. in 1997 NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.[4] Another estimate has estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.[1]:65[2]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The surveys all ask slightly different questions.. Makes a huge diff if just PRODUCING a weapon sends the would be criminal trotting away.. Because from what I've read, that's more than 50 or 60% of DGUs... Most CCW holders don't count just lifting their shirt as a DGU..
You made a severe mistake in using anything that Kleck used as a source. I won't go into why because I really hate repeating myself. But kleck is a bad source with severely inflated figures.
You really want to go into this one?
\
I dont censor sources. I use the input and move on to collecting other input.. In this day and age if you started "CANCELLING" sources you don't like -- you'll have NO FUCKING clue what you're talking about..
The Wiki article gives you great over-view of the estimates... I did OK..
You asked for it.
The Contradictions of the Kleck Study
According to Kleck, there were 2.5 million defensive uses of Guns from 1987 to 1992. Wow. That would mean that there are no safe places in the United States and even going to the corner market, you are going to have to shoot your way there and back at least once a week. Every home would need an APC parked in a reinforced Garage.
The error to Kleck was, he took the the DOJ report and used ALL US episodes including Police and Military as part of his total. If you include those, his figures are correct. But when you take them out, the figures are miniscule for civilians. DS1, alone, would make up the majority of the total.
Kleck reported 2.5 million for 1987 to 1992 but the DOJ reported 83,000 (about) for the same time period. I suggest you research your cites. They may be as full of shit as 2boy and his cites are. And since when is Wiki used as a bonafined source for anything considering if I wanted to I can go in and edit it to read anything I want it to read.
Please stop making shit up.
Again, you don't know what you are talking about...
The Daily Kos on why the NCVS is wrong...
Defensive Gun Use Part III - The National Crime Victimization Study
The disadvantages of this study design are:
1) the study is not specifically designed to measure DGUs;
2) the study does not track every type of crime;
3) the study does not ask every interviewee about episodes of DGU;
4) interviewees are not specifically asked about defending themselves with a gun;
5) follow-up studies have demonstrated that the incidence of assault (and especially assaults by relatives and non-strangers) in the NCVS is under-reported, and if crime is under-reported then so too will DGUs be under-reported;
6) respondents’ anonymity is not preserved, and some interviewees may therefore feel wary or unwilling to discuss gun use with federal government employees.
2aguy
Diamond Member
- Jul 19, 2014
- 112,251
- 52,473
- 2,290
I picked the CONSERVATIVE number. When I was shooting match competitions, my dad would get the NRA mag.. In a special section they would post press releases from newspapers across the country on REPORTED stories.. Maybe like 20 a month. So I got interested and researched it a lot..
2aguy has more recent links.
How to Count the Defensive Use of Guns
Neither survey calls nor media and police reports capture the importance of private gun ownership.
Kleck says they found 222 bonafide DGUs directly via survey. The defender had to "state a specific crime they thought was being committed" and to have actually used the gun, even if just threateningly or by "verbally referring to the gun." Kleck insists the surveyors were scrupulous about eliminating any sketchy or questionable-seeming responses.
The study concluded, based only on stories said to have occurred to the speaker during the past year, and extrapolating from their results, that 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs happened in the U.S. a year.
Kleck points out this only means that about 1 percent of guns in the U.S. are thus used annually. In Armed, Kleck discusses a number of later surveys on DGUs, including one from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1994, that at least roughly back up his original estimates. He sums up that "there are now at least nineteen professional surveys, seventeen of them national in scope, that indicate huge numbers of defensive gun uses in the U.S."
The one huge outlier in finding so many DGUs is the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), also done 1993-94 by the Census Bureau on behalf of the Department of Justice, with a follow-up in 1998. That one found just 116,000—a near 95 percent drop from the NSDS survey result. The NCVS was designed to gather information, as the title indicates, on crime victimization in general with the DGU response a byproduct.
Kleck has suggested some reasons for the low NCVS number that don't rely on its DGU estimate actually being correct. Among them are that NCVS never explicitly asks about DGUs, merely asking those who say yes to having been a crime victim whether they "did or tried to do" something about it while it was happening; that people might be reluctant to admit to possibly criminal action on their own part (especially since the vast majority of crime victimizations in the survey occurred outside the home, where the possession's legality might be questionable) to a government surveyor after they've given their name and address (which they were asked to do); that they might consider a crime prevented by a DGU as not a crime they were victims of at all since it was uncompleted; and that there are some independent reasons to believe the very crime victimization numbers, which the DGUs are a subset of, are undercounted by the survey.
Defensive gun use - Wikipedia
Estimates of frequency
Estimates over the number of defensive gun uses vary wildly, depending on the study's definition of a defensive gun use, survey design, population, criteria, time-period studied, and other factors. Low-end estimates are in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 incidents per year, while high end estimates reach of 4.7 million per year. Discussion over the number and nature of DGU and the implications to gun control policy came to a head in the late 1990s.[2][3][4]
Estimates of DGU from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) are consistently lower than those from other studies. A 2000 study suggested that this may be because the NCVS measures different activities than the other surveys do.[5]
The National Self-Defense Survey and the NCVS, vary in their methods, time-frames covered, and questions asked.[6] DGU questions were asked of all the NSDS sample.[7] Due to screening questions in the NCVS survey, only a minority of the NCVS sample were asked a DGU question.[4]
Lower-end estimates include that by David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, which estimated approximately 55,000–80,000 such uses each year.[8][9]
Another survey including DGU questions was the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. in 1997 NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.[4] Another estimate has estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.[1]:65[2]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The surveys all ask slightly different questions.. Makes a huge diff if just PRODUCING a weapon sends the would be criminal trotting away.. Because from what I've read, that's more than 50 or 60% of DGUs... Most CCW holders don't count just lifting their shirt as a DGU..
You made a severe mistake in using anything that Kleck used as a source. I won't go into why because I really hate repeating myself. But kleck is a bad source with severely inflated figures.
You really want to go into this one?
\
I dont censor sources. I use the input and move on to collecting other input.. In this day and age if you started "CANCELLING" sources you don't like -- you'll have NO FUCKING clue what you're talking about..
The Wiki article gives you great over-view of the estimates... I did OK..
You asked for it.
The Contradictions of the Kleck Study
According to Kleck, there were 2.5 million defensive uses of Guns from 1987 to 1992. Wow. That would mean that there are no safe places in the United States and even going to the corner market, you are going to have to shoot your way there and back at least once a week. Every home would need an APC parked in a reinforced Garage.
The error to Kleck was, he took the the DOJ report and used ALL US episodes including Police and Military as part of his total. If you include those, his figures are correct. But when you take them out, the figures are miniscule for civilians. DS1, alone, would make up the majority of the total.
Kleck reported 2.5 million for 1987 to 1992 but the DOJ reported 83,000 (about) for the same time period. I suggest you research your cites. They may be as full of shit as 2boy and his cites are. And since when is Wiki used as a bonafined source for anything considering if I wanted to I can go in and edit it to read anything I want it to read.
Please stop making shit up.
Again...moron....Kleck did not use police and military self defense...what part of that is so hard for you to understand?
2aguy
Diamond Member
- Jul 19, 2014
- 112,251
- 52,473
- 2,290
I picked the CONSERVATIVE number. When I was shooting match competitions, my dad would get the NRA mag.. In a special section they would post press releases from newspapers across the country on REPORTED stories.. Maybe like 20 a month. So I got interested and researched it a lot..
2aguy has more recent links.
How to Count the Defensive Use of Guns
Neither survey calls nor media and police reports capture the importance of private gun ownership.
Kleck says they found 222 bonafide DGUs directly via survey. The defender had to "state a specific crime they thought was being committed" and to have actually used the gun, even if just threateningly or by "verbally referring to the gun." Kleck insists the surveyors were scrupulous about eliminating any sketchy or questionable-seeming responses.
The study concluded, based only on stories said to have occurred to the speaker during the past year, and extrapolating from their results, that 2.2 to 2.5 million DGUs happened in the U.S. a year.
Kleck points out this only means that about 1 percent of guns in the U.S. are thus used annually. In Armed, Kleck discusses a number of later surveys on DGUs, including one from the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in 1994, that at least roughly back up his original estimates. He sums up that "there are now at least nineteen professional surveys, seventeen of them national in scope, that indicate huge numbers of defensive gun uses in the U.S."
The one huge outlier in finding so many DGUs is the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS), also done 1993-94 by the Census Bureau on behalf of the Department of Justice, with a follow-up in 1998. That one found just 116,000—a near 95 percent drop from the NSDS survey result. The NCVS was designed to gather information, as the title indicates, on crime victimization in general with the DGU response a byproduct.
Kleck has suggested some reasons for the low NCVS number that don't rely on its DGU estimate actually being correct. Among them are that NCVS never explicitly asks about DGUs, merely asking those who say yes to having been a crime victim whether they "did or tried to do" something about it while it was happening; that people might be reluctant to admit to possibly criminal action on their own part (especially since the vast majority of crime victimizations in the survey occurred outside the home, where the possession's legality might be questionable) to a government surveyor after they've given their name and address (which they were asked to do); that they might consider a crime prevented by a DGU as not a crime they were victims of at all since it was uncompleted; and that there are some independent reasons to believe the very crime victimization numbers, which the DGUs are a subset of, are undercounted by the survey.
Defensive gun use - Wikipedia
Estimates of frequency
Estimates over the number of defensive gun uses vary wildly, depending on the study's definition of a defensive gun use, survey design, population, criteria, time-period studied, and other factors. Low-end estimates are in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 incidents per year, while high end estimates reach of 4.7 million per year. Discussion over the number and nature of DGU and the implications to gun control policy came to a head in the late 1990s.[2][3][4]
Estimates of DGU from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) are consistently lower than those from other studies. A 2000 study suggested that this may be because the NCVS measures different activities than the other surveys do.[5]
The National Self-Defense Survey and the NCVS, vary in their methods, time-frames covered, and questions asked.[6] DGU questions were asked of all the NSDS sample.[7] Due to screening questions in the NCVS survey, only a minority of the NCVS sample were asked a DGU question.[4]
Lower-end estimates include that by David Hemenway, a professor of Health Policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, which estimated approximately 55,000–80,000 such uses each year.[8][9]
Another survey including DGU questions was the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. in 1997 NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.[4] Another estimate has estimated approximately 1 million DGU incidents in the United States.[1]:65[2]
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The surveys all ask slightly different questions.. Makes a huge diff if just PRODUCING a weapon sends the would be criminal trotting away.. Because from what I've read, that's more than 50 or 60% of DGUs... Most CCW holders don't count just lifting their shirt as a DGU..
You made a severe mistake in using anything that Kleck used as a source. I won't go into why because I really hate repeating myself. But kleck is a bad source with severely inflated figures.
You really want to go into this one?
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I dont censor sources. I use the input and move on to collecting other input.. In this day and age if you started "CANCELLING" sources you don't like -- you'll have NO FUCKING clue what you're talking about..
The Wiki article gives you great over-view of the estimates... I did OK..
You asked for it.
The Contradictions of the Kleck Study
According to Kleck, there were 2.5 million defensive uses of Guns from 1987 to 1992. Wow. That would mean that there are no safe places in the United States and even going to the corner market, you are going to have to shoot your way there and back at least once a week. Every home would need an APC parked in a reinforced Garage.
The error to Kleck was, he took the the DOJ report and used ALL US episodes including Police and Military as part of his total. If you include those, his figures are correct. But when you take them out, the figures are miniscule for civilians. DS1, alone, would make up the majority of the total.
Kleck reported 2.5 million for 1987 to 1992 but the DOJ reported 83,000 (about) for the same time period. I suggest you research your cites. They may be as full of shit as 2boy and his cites are. And since when is Wiki used as a bonafined source for anything considering if I wanted to I can go in and edit it to read anything I want it to read.
Please stop making shit up.
The Department of Justice, you twit...found 1.5 million defensive gun uses each year.........from a study they paid for with anti-gunners running the research.....
DrLove
Diamond Member
Lil Nicky Sandmann got a few hundred bucks a from WaPo to shut him up.
So you rag on a "mobster" who happened to be carrying a handgun, but deem a 17 year old who brings an AK-47 to be a patriot of some sort?
I have a standing bet - This idiot will be convicted of murder one. Month off the board?
THe handgun was a definite violation and the felon (last time I heard) has not been charged.. The situation surrounding the AK is more nebulous.. I was transporting 20 rifles and 3000 rounds of ammunition in a station wagon every weekend when I was 17.. My dad ran a Jr Rifle League for Civitans.. Got stopped once on the way to a match.. The cop just laugh hysterically... Told me to have a nice day...
I just want to folks to realize what kind of TROUBLE shows up "at a riot".. And to be even-handed about the details...
As for the bet -- I'm probably gonna be rehabbing in the USMB Moderator Asylum.. It's a health benefit for sacrificing my psyche here everyday.. And I think the white coats are gonna collect me and take me away about election time.. So that screws up the terms of the bet...
You live in "Hillbilly Hollywood, Tennessee"? Well flacal, that explains quite a bit!
The Country Music Homes Tour Buses come right down the road.. Mingle with the fans at the corner store.. Tell them I've toured with Willie Nelson.. Aint shabby..
Very cool, but did you ever smoke weed with Willie? That one's on my bucket list even though it ain't gonna happen.
Montrovant
Fuzzy bears!
There
There is video of the first shooting, too. Rittenhouse was being chased in that video, and the man threw something at him, before he shot."Declined to condemn"...was he asked to condemn the violence? I think the man is a narcissist con-man, but from the video I've seen, Rittenhouse WAS running from people and he WAS attacked before he shot them. There may be more information that would change things, but from what I've seen so far, I'd only "condemn violence from his supporters" in the sense that the kid shouldn't have been there, and armed, at all.
That video is taken AFTER he shot and killed a person.
He shot three people that night. Two of them died. One of them is in the hospital.
The only reason he was being chased is he shot and killed someone. The protesters were trying to subdue him because the police didn't do anything about it and the protesters didn't want more people killed or harmed.
In fact after he had shot three people, killing two of them, the police let him walk right by them, get in his car, drive back to Illinois and go home.
Of course we don’t have all the details, but in neither case did Rittenhouse appear to be the aggressor, and both videos seem to show Rittenhouse attacked before firing.
I have not seen that video. Do you have a link to it?
The whole thing stinks as far as I'm concerned.
I saw it as part of this video:
This one is shorter and also has the video I mentioned, starting at about 1:50 :
The video doesn't show why the shots rang out. Just that shots rang out. Then we see the shooter running across the parking lot. There is nothing about anyone throwing anything at him or what happened before the shots rang out.
The object was thrown at him AFTER he killed a person not before. I'm sure that object was thrown at him because he had just shot and killed someone. He was being chased because he shot and killed someone.
Your video doesn't show him being chased, harassed or threatened or anything before he killed that man. In fact it shows him shouting at the police for water and the police saying they appreciate him for being there.
As far as I can see, he was being chased in the street because he had just shot and killed someone.
He was a child in an adult situation he had no business being involved in.
The problem with that is two people are dead and one person is in the hospital injured by that child with the weapon he had no business having in public.
I believe the guy who threw the plastic bag in the parking lot was the first one shot by Rittenhouse. That would mean he could not have been chased for shooting someone at that point.
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