Left Behind, Tribulation Force, Nicolae...

[no1tovote4]

In the old Testament they have Parliament I, II, & III. There are others but I don't know them all. I was raised on the Protestant Bible.

They also have the book of Wisdom, Baruch, 1 & 2 Maccabees, Judith, Sirach.


The New Testament is the same.

I just checked and the Books of Parliament are removed in the newest version of the Catholic Bible.

Wow, in order here are the Books of the Bible that are present in the Catholic version that are not in the Protestant Bible.

Old Testament

Tobit
Judith
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
Wisdom
Sirach
Baruch

New Testament

this is the same.

Most of the books that are in the Catholic but not the Protestant Bible are part of the Apocrypha

But some of those are not included in the Catholic Bible as well.
1 Esdras
2 Esdras
Esther
1 Maccabees
2 Maccabees
Tobit
Judith
Wisdom
Sirach
Baruch
Susanna
Azariah
Manasseh
Bel

 

[5stringJeff]

Getting back to the original post... I have read the entire series, and I enjoyed it a lot, though towards the end, the series of events got a bit ridiculous. I will say, though, that I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. My reading of it, from both Matthew and Revelation, is that the rapture will occur sometime after the fifth seal.

As to menewa's absurd comment that the Rapture is not mainstream, it's a fundementalist concept, nothing can be further from the truth. Jesus taught about his own return to earth in the "Olivet Discourse" in Matthew 24. Paul mentions the Rapture many times in 1 Thessalonians. And, of course, Revelation contains much on the subject. So it is not a fundamentaist-only concept, and frankly, our hope as Christians depends on it. The Rapture is the resurrection of the Church, and, as Paul preaches in 1 Corinthians 15, the resurrection is the central theological tenet of Christianity, and the foundation for all hope is Christ.

 

[no1tovote4]

Getting back to the original post... I have read the entire series, and I enjoyed it a lot, though towards the end, the series of events got a bit ridiculous. I will say, though, that I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. My reading of it, from both Matthew and Revelation, is that the rapture will occur sometime after the fifth seal.

As to menewa's absurd comment that the Rapture is not mainstream, it's a fundementalist concept, nothing can be further from the truth. Jesus taught about his own return to earth in the "Olivet Discourse" in Matthew 24. Paul mentions the Rapture many times in 1 Thessalonians. And, of course, Revelation contains much on the subject. So it is not a fundamentaist-only concept, and frankly, our hope as Christians depends on it. The Rapture is the resurrection of the Church, and, as Paul preaches in 1 Corinthians 15, the resurrection is the central theological tenet of Christianity, and the foundation for all hope is Christ.

Don't forget Daniel and other books of the Old Testament that also talk of the second coming.

 

[5stringJeff]

Don't forget Daniel and other books of the Old Testament that also talk of the second coming.

Very true.

 

[waltky]

Granny says, "Dat's right - the world goin' to hell inna handbasket...

Will Tribulation begin a year from now?
12 Sept.`14 ~ Exclusive: Pastor Mark Biltz ties super blood moon with beginning of Shemitah cycle

Where has the world headed since the first blood moon on Passover of 2014? Our world has now gone past the tipping point, and events are now accelerating out of anyone’s control. Just as ISIS has gone from the JV team to the A team, along with events spreading from Russia to Ukraine and planes being shot out of the sky, we see everything developing exponentially. Look at the Ebola, for example. From the Centers of Disease Control, we see that the 2014 Ebola outbreak is one of the largest Ebola outbreaks in history and the first in West Africa. It is affecting five countries in West Africa.

We have a respiratory illness that has already sickened more than a thousand children in 10 states that is likely to become a nationwide problem, doctors say. Terror attacks in Jerusalem have grown exponentially over the past few months, a Shabak (Israel Security Service) report Monday said. Take a look at all the worldwide conflicts since this last April at this website. Notice all the earthquakes occurring, tracked by the USGS. Here is an old chart only going up to 2008 showing the increase in earthquakes higher than 6.0:

When you look at the chart, you see at the highest point there were around 36 earthquakes that year over 6.0. That is nothing compared to this year! In 2014 so far – and the year is not even close to being over – we have already had 116 earthquakes 6.0 and above! With 70 of them since the first blood moon! This year will more than quadruple the number of large earthquakes from the highest year of the last decade. We hear of major droughts, as in California. All of this to say that we are living during the birth pains of the coming of the Messiah. Now I would like to deliver a bombshell of biblical proportions. Everyone needs to understand the prophetic time clock and prophetic calendar of the days we are living in, which is why I wrote the book “Blood Moons” and produced the Shemitah calendar for this coming year, starting in a few weeks on Rosh Hashana.

The Shemitah year is the seventh year of the seven-year cycle when the land of Israel had to rest, and it was an economic reset year for the financial system. In Genesis, God started the seven-day cycle. We have a seven-day week, then there is the seven-week cycle of 49 days in the Bible from first-fruits to Shavuot, or Pentecost. We have the seven-year cycle known as the Shemitah cycle. There is the seven-Shemitah cycle of 49 years bring us to the year of Jubilee. We know from the Bible that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and it has been 6,000 years since the creation of Adam. We are about to enter the seventh millennium, known as the day of rest.

MORE

 

[ninja007]

I believe the Book of Daniels and Lukes and MMarks and Genesises talks about it too.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

Could be. It wouldn't surprise me any. But it sure would surprise a lot of people I know.

 

[ninja007]

LOL... I was putting an S at the end of the books (my last post to see if anyone noticed the incorrect spellings). I hate when people call Revelation RevelationS.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I believe the Book of Daniels and Lukes and MMarks and Genesises talks about it too.

what is up with the s's?

 

[ninja007]

I believe the Book of Daniels and Lukes and MMarks and Genesises talks about it too.

what is up with the s's?

post 68.

 

[the_human_being]

As some of you know, I've been reading the "Left Behind" series by Jenkins and LaHay about the rapture and tribulation period before the "Great Appearing." I'm on the 3rd book now, "Nicolae: The Rise of the AntiChrist."

As I said before, some crazy, scary stuff!

Before this, I had never read Revalation, and I don't remember EVER hearing about any of this in church, except for the perfunctory phrase in the Apostle's Creed, "Christ will come again the judge the living and the dead."

Do your churches discuss it? I kind of thought only fringe, holy-roller, Bible-thumping churches (and I don't mean that to be offensive--seriously) ever brought up stuff like the 4 horses of the Apocolypse.

What have been your experiences?

Actually the series is based upon error in that the rapture of the Church is a totally false doctrine. The book series has however, made its authors a ton of money.

 

[the_human_being]

I love pretrib analysis, I find it fascinating.

whats pretrib?

Pretrib must mean what we Cherokees did just prior to a council meeting. LOL!

 

[ninja007]

pretrib= pretribulation rapture. The church (born again Christians) will be raptured before God pours out His wrath on unbeliever's.

 

[the_human_being]

pretrib= pretribulation rapture. The church (born again Christians) will be raptured before God pours out His wrath on unbeliever's.

Scripture actually stating this please?

 

[ninja007]

pretrib= pretribulation rapture. The church (born again Christians) will be raptured before God pours out His wrath on unbeliever's.

Scripture actually stating this please?

1 thes ch.4


The Return of the Lord
…15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…

 

[the_human_being]

pretrib= pretribulation rapture. The church (born again Christians) will be raptured before God pours out His wrath on unbeliever's.

Scripture actually stating this please?

1 thes ch.4


The Return of the Lord
…15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…

Didn't see anything here about a pretrib rapture. I do see the resurrection of the saints occurring at the "coming of the Lord" which is after the Great Tribulation.

Again, please post actual scripture stating your pre-trib rapture of the Church.

 

[the_human_being]

Getting back to the original post... I have read the entire series, and I enjoyed it a lot, though towards the end, the series of events got a bit ridiculous. I will say, though, that I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. My reading of it, from both Matthew and Revelation, is that the rapture will occur sometime after the fifth seal.

As to menewa's absurd comment that the Rapture is not mainstream, it's a fundementalist concept, nothing can be further from the truth. Jesus taught about his own return to earth in the "Olivet Discourse" in Matthew 24. Paul mentions the Rapture many times in 1 Thessalonians. And, of course, Revelation contains much on the subject. So it is not a fundamentaist-only concept, and frankly, our hope as Christians depends on it. The Rapture is the resurrection of the Church, and, as Paul preaches in 1 Corinthians 15, the resurrection is the central theological tenet of Christianity, and the foundation for all hope is Christ.

Can you explain to us why the Christ failed to inform the Apostles in His Olivet Discourse that they had nothing at all to worry about because He was going to rapture them out before the Great Tribulation began?

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

pretrib= pretribulation rapture. The church (born again Christians) will be raptured before God pours out His wrath on unbeliever's.

Scripture actually stating this please?

1 thes ch.4


The Return of the Lord
…15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…

Didn't see anything here about a pretrib rapture. I do see the resurrection of the saints occurring at the "coming of the Lord" which is after the Great Tribulation.

Again, please post actual scripture stating your pre-trib rapture of the Church.

I am not sure which way the rapture will be. It is still a work in progress for me, though here is some interesting arguments made for a pre-trib rapture.

Sixteen scriptural proofs that the rapture is pre-tribulation *
Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day.
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1).
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1).
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the Church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "Church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

**Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14).
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10).
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.

Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46).
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium*16 proofs are from Cornerstone Church garden city Kansas website **(I do not think proof 7 is valid since I do not believe the 24 elders are the Church)
http://www.fellowshiponline.org/bib.html

 

[the_human_being]

pretrib= pretribulation rapture. The church (born again Christians) will be raptured before God pours out His wrath on unbeliever's.

Scripture actually stating this please?

1 thes ch.4


The Return of the Lord
…15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…

Didn't see anything here about a pretrib rapture. I do see the resurrection of the saints occurring at the "coming of the Lord" which is after the Great Tribulation.

Again, please post actual scripture stating your pre-trib rapture of the Church.

I am not sure which way the rapture will be. It is still a work in progress for me, though here is some interesting arguments made for a pre-trib rapture.

Sixteen scriptural proofs that the rapture is pre-tribulation *
Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day.
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1).
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1).
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the Church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "Church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

**Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14).
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10).
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.

Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46).
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium*16 proofs are from Cornerstone Church garden city Kansas website **(I do not think proof 7 is valid since I do not believe the 24 elders are the Church)
http://www.fellowshiponline.org/bib.html

There is no rapture. There are two or more resurrections. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the saints who are brought forth from their graves or changed at the appearance of the Christ at His coming into spirit beings having eternal life and who will reign with Christ in the earthly Kingdom. The Second Resurrection and possibly the third one is the resurrection of all the remainder of mankind into flesh and blood human beings again.

 

[UllysesS.Archer]

pretrib= pretribulation rapture. The church (born again Christians) will be raptured before God pours out His wrath on unbeliever's.

Scripture actually stating this please?

1 thes ch.4


The Return of the Lord
…15For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.…

Didn't see anything here about a pretrib rapture. I do see the resurrection of the saints occurring at the "coming of the Lord" which is after the Great Tribulation.

Again, please post actual scripture stating your pre-trib rapture of the Church.

I am not sure which way the rapture will be. It is still a work in progress for me, though here is some interesting arguments made for a pre-trib rapture.

Sixteen scriptural proofs that the rapture is pre-tribulation *
Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.

Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day.
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1).
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the Church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1).
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the Church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "Church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

**Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14).
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10).
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

Proof #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.

Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46).
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium*16 proofs are from Cornerstone Church garden city Kansas website **(I do not think proof 7 is valid since I do not believe the 24 elders are the Church)
http://www.fellowshiponline.org/bib.html

There is no rapture. There are two or more resurrections. The first resurrection is the resurrection of the saints who are brought forth from their graves or changed at the appearance of the Christ at His coming into spirit beings having eternal life and who will reign with Christ in the earthly Kingdom. The Second Resurrection and possibly the third one is the resurrection of all the remainder of mankind into flesh and blood human beings again.

Your argument is not very convincing, on just your say so. Show me some proof.