Let's address the REAL issue.

[PredFan]

It isn't just video games though. For a long time gratuitous graphic violence has been available without restrictions of any kind for kids as young as PG13 in the movies and on televsion and even Disney movies for the youngest have more graphic violence than was once socially acceptable. Kids are plenty smart enough to differentiate between the violence in say the Elmer Fudd/Bugs Bunny cartoons or the Coyote and the Roadrunner.

But can they mentally separate out the violence they see in Batman, Spiderman, Superman movies? Song lyrics, especially rap, is full of some of the most unconscionable violence and nobody even blinks any more. Our language has become more coarse, insulting, graphic, and suggestive. We are in a culture in which chidlren who were once taught respect, civility, and courtesy for their elders, most especially those in authority, to a litigious culture in which such values are now held mostly in contempt and lashing out in anger to punish those who 'offend' us is not only the norm, but encouraged.

Amd as we become a society more and more desensitized to violence, blood, pain, and cruelty and righteous retaliation, add in mind altering drugs and a sense of entitlement and I think it makes for a very volatile mix, most especially in those who are irrationally angry and via mental illness or drug induced, mentally unstable.

I don't think one can dismiss any piece of the puzzle, nor can anyone deny that video games may be part of the puzzle that helps desensitize us to violence. That doesn't mean that we get rid of violent video games and the problem is solved.

Agreed. And there is always the danger of justifying the anger and violence of the gunman by blaming society. Look how quickly some jumped on the bandwagon to blame the guns or blame the bullies or blame the mother and/or to blame anybody or anything but the gunman. This I also think could be a factor. The would be perpetrator is already desensitized to consicence and violence and is already angry. And if he sees that he can generate attention for himself and sympathy and justification for his actions, could that be factor in increasing motive for the act?

Also a good point.

 

[PredFan]

I didn't use the word ban did I Pred?

I don't believe so. But the logical progression from blaming something for these killings is banning them, and that bothers me.

...and the societial benefit of gratuitous violence is?

Does everything have to benefit society?

 

[PredFan]

I need to add our legal system to the possible causes.

On the morning of Christmas Eve, a man set his house on fire and lie in wait for the first responders win a cache of guns.

The problem is that this guy was an ex-con and forbidden to own guns. In addition, he percilessly bludgeoned his own mother to deat with a hammer, and now he was out of jail? I guess we concidered him rehabilitated?

You beat your mothwer to death with a hammer and you're not emotionally or mentally disturbed? instead you are wandering about among the general populace? That is a tragedy of justice.

 

[PredFan]

(so, since for some reason I can't edit my own OP, I have to repost it)

The real issue is; Why do these shootings take place?

Possible reasons:

1. Our society in general.
2. Our culture of violence.
3. Our culture of entitlement.
4. Drugging kids.
5. Drugging adults.
6. The media.
7. Mishandling of the mentally ill.
8. Disenfranchizement.
9. The US Justice System.


Where are these lunatics coming from? How many more are out there?

 

[Pogo]

(so, since for some reason I can't edit my own OP, I have to repost it)

The real issue is; Why do these shootings take place?

Possible reasons:

1. Our society in general.
2. Our culture of violence.
3. Our culture of entitlement.
4. Drugging kids.
5. Drugging adults.
6. The media.
7. Mishandling of the mentally ill.
8. Disenfranchizement.
9. The US Justice System.


Where are these lunatics coming from? How many more are out there?

I'll go with #2 first and foremost. Then #1 (which is a vast overlap), and add #10: the NRA and the gun manufacturers profiting off the testosteroned-poisoned paranoia they sell.

All the rest pretty much applies to other countries, yet they don't have this gun violence culture. So we narrow down to what is uniquely ours.

 

[PredFan]

(so, since for some reason I can't edit my own OP, I have to repost it)

The real issue is; Why do these shootings take place?

Possible reasons:

1. Our society in general.
2. Our culture of violence.
3. Our culture of entitlement.
4. Drugging kids.
5. Drugging adults.
6. The media.
7. Mishandling of the mentally ill.
8. Disenfranchizement.
9. The US Justice System.


Where are these lunatics coming from? How many more are out there?

I'll go with #2 first and foremost. Then #1 (which is a vast overlap), and add #10: the NRA and the gun manufacturers profiting off the testosteroned-poisoned paranoia they sell.

All the rest pretty much applies to other countries, yet they don't have this gun violence culture. So we narrow down to what is uniquely ours.

Guns are "how", we are looking at "why". No one kills another person because they want to make money for the NRA and gun manufacturers.

I am aware that there is overlap between #1 and #2, yet they are still separate, and yes, that is what we are attempting to discuss. Why are these deaths happening? What is causing these people to do these things, and why can't we identify them before it happens?

 

[boedicca]

The 10th ranked item on kids Christmas Wish Lists this year was "A Dad".

I think this has something to do with the dysfunction of many kids.

 

[saveliberty]

The 10th ranked item on kids Christmas Wish Lists this year was "A Dad".

I think this has something to do with the dysfunction of many kids.

...and why no Dad? Your on the right track, but you stopped in the middle.

 

[Pogo]

(so, since for some reason I can't edit my own OP, I have to repost it)

The real issue is; Why do these shootings take place?

Possible reasons:

1. Our society in general.
2. Our culture of violence.
3. Our culture of entitlement.
4. Drugging kids.
5. Drugging adults.
6. The media.
7. Mishandling of the mentally ill.
8. Disenfranchizement.
9. The US Justice System.


Where are these lunatics coming from? How many more are out there?

I'll go with #2 first and foremost. Then #1 (which is a vast overlap), and add #10: the NRA and the gun manufacturers profiting off the testosteroned-poisoned paranoia they sell.

All the rest pretty much applies to other countries, yet they don't have this gun violence culture. So we narrow down to what is uniquely ours.

Guns are "how", we are looking at "why". No one kills another person because they want to make money for the NRA and gun manufacturers.

No, of course not. That's the backwards of what I'm saying; people don't buy guns to make money for the NRA and gunmongers; Gunmongers and the NRA do what they do to make money. And if recent reports of runs on guns are accurate, it's working. As Mencken noted, nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. Perhaps a better way to state this point would be "the easy and plentiful availability of firearms". That's not the cause of this madness by itself, but it does facilitate it (by contrast when Australia cleaned up its national gun stock, such violence went way down). So it is a contributing factor, since without such easy availability the motivation and opportunity might be present but without the means, you don't have an event.

I am aware that there is overlap between #1 and #2, yet they are still separate, and yes, that is what we are attempting to discuss. Why are these deaths happening? What is causing these people to do these things, and why can't we identify them before it happens?

You're asking about motivations, so I still go back to #2 first, foremost and predominantly. Bob Costas tried to bring this up back on December 2nd and got shouted down for it, yet with Klackamas and Newtown and Webster all taking place after that commentary (and we're not even out of the month yet) he was clearly prescient.

This is a conversation the Gnuts don't want happening. And for that matter the NRA and gunmongers don't want it happening either since it could be bad for business. That's why they tried to reframe that commentary, and so many others, into a "gun control" issue about taking gun-pacifiers away.

That's a rhetorical false flag operation.

But the root cause of that gun fetishism, the underlying dynamic they're trying to sidestep, very much is the examination we need to do.

Here's how one wag summed it up the psychology:

... we are a nation founded on genocide and built on the backs of slaves. We slaughtered 600,000 of each other in a civil war. We "tamed the Wild West with a six-shooter," and we rape and beat and kill our women without mercy and at a staggering rate: every three hours a women is murdered in the USA (half the time by an ex or a current); every three minutes a woman is raped in the USA; and every 15 seconds a woman is beaten in the USA.

We belong to an illustrious group of nations that still have the death penalty (North Korea, Saudi Arabia, China, Iran). We think nothing of letting tens of thousands of our own citizens die each year because they are uninsured and thus don't see a doctor until it's too late.

(Celebrating the Prince of Peace in the Land of Guns)

Guns don't kill people by themselves. But the people that use them for that purpose need motivation. Motivations don't happen in a vacuum. They're built up over time.

 

[saveliberty]

Poor POGO, now he's dissing over half the population who supports gun rights. Then he launches into a circular reasoning rant. Anyway you slice it, it comes back to take guns from law abiding citizens.

 

[Pogo]

Poor POGO, now he's dissing over half the population who supports gun rights. Then he launches into a circular reasoning rant. Anyway you slice it, it comes back to take guns from law abiding citizens.

Well you just demonstrated the rhetorical false flag. You see, I have never called for gun bans at all. Not here, not anywhere. Go ahead, look it up. Call my grandchildren when you find something.

One more attempt to recharacterize a stream about gun culture to one about gun "grabbing". That's transparent, and you guys are a dime a dozen. And you want to imagine I'm the one making assumptions?

By the way, RE powers of observance, it's "Pogo". It's not an acromym.

 

[saveliberty]

Poor POGO, now he's dissing over half the population who supports gun rights. Then he launches into a circular reasoning rant. Anyway you slice it, it comes back to take guns from law abiding citizens.

Well you just demonstrated the rhetorical false flag. You see, I have never called for gun bans at all. Not here, not anywhere. Go ahead, look it up. Call my grandchildren when you find something.

One more attempt to recharacterize a stream about gun culture to one about gun "grabbing". That's transparent, and you guys are a dime a dozen. And you want to imagine I'm the one making assumptions?

Sure are calling for a ban. Just how do you envision all these guns going away? Clearly you plan on reducing the number available. You backed yourself into a corner. Amuse us, try and get out.

 

[Pogo]

Poor POGO, now he's dissing over half the population who supports gun rights. Then he launches into a circular reasoning rant. Anyway you slice it, it comes back to take guns from law abiding citizens.

Well you just demonstrated the rhetorical false flag. You see, I have never called for gun bans at all. Not here, not anywhere. Go ahead, look it up. Call my grandchildren when you find something.

One more attempt to recharacterize a stream about gun culture to one about gun "grabbing". That's transparent, and you guys are a dime a dozen. And you want to imagine I'm the one making assumptions?

Sure are calling for a ban. Just how do you envision all these guns going away? Clearly you plan on reducing the number available. You backed yourself into a corner. Amuse us, try and get out.

So here's what you came up with:

....................................................................................................

Good work. You know what they say about the word ass-ume...

 

[saveliberty]

Well you just demonstrated the rhetorical false flag. You see, I have never called for gun bans at all. Not here, not anywhere. Go ahead, look it up. Call my grandchildren when you find something.

One more attempt to recharacterize a stream about gun culture to one about gun "grabbing". That's transparent, and you guys are a dime a dozen. And you want to imagine I'm the one making assumptions?

Sure are calling for a ban. Just how do you envision all these guns going away? Clearly you plan on reducing the number available. You backed yourself into a corner. Amuse us, try and get out.

So here's what you came up with:

....................................................................................................

Good work. You know what they say about the word ass-ume...

Best you got huh?

Just what I thought.

P.S. You just called yourself an ass.

 

[Pogo]

You see, I have never called for gun bans at all. Not here, not anywhere. Go ahead, look it up. Call my grandchildren when you find something.

Still waiting.....

 

[saveliberty]

You see, I have never called for gun bans at all. Not here, not anywhere. Go ahead, look it up. Call my grandchildren when you find something.

Still waiting.....

You're the one in the corner trying to get rid of guns without a ban bucko. Still waiting on your game plan there...

 

[Pogo]

(so, since for some reason I can't edit my own OP, I have to repost it)

The real issue is; Why do these shootings take place?

Possible reasons:

1. Our society in general.
2. Our culture of violence.
3. Our culture of entitlement.
4. Drugging kids.
5. Drugging adults.
6. The media.
7. Mishandling of the mentally ill.
8. Disenfranchizement.
9. The US Justice System.


Where are these lunatics coming from? How many more are out there?

I'll go with #2 first and foremost. Then #1 (which is a vast overlap), and add #10: the NRA and the gun manufacturers profiting off the testosteroned-poisoned paranoia they sell.

All the rest pretty much applies to other countries, yet they don't have this gun violence culture. So we narrow down to what is uniquely ours.

Guns are "how", we are looking at "why". No one kills another person because they want to make money for the NRA and gun manufacturers.

I am aware that there is overlap between #1 and #2, yet they are still separate, and yes, that is what we are attempting to discuss. Why are these deaths happening? What is causing these people to do these things, and why can't we identify them before it happens?

Well as you can see in the last few posts, I'm afraid this is what happens when you try to open a conversation about the culture -- you get NRA trolls yapping at your heels trying to redefine what you just said into a "gun grab" rant. This I guess feeds back to your #1 point, specifically the denialists who want to revise everybody else into what they wish you had said, so they don't have to address what you actually did say. It's another way to shut down dissent, and a particularly dishonest one.

I went through the same crap tactic three weeks ago with the Bob Costas commentary -- actually sat on a Fox Sports forum going against the mob mentality thinking. Imagine the fun there. Come to think of it the same thing happened in the summer after Aurora-- same redefinition. There's an acute kibosh put on anyone who dares even mention the gun culture. As I noted during the Costas event, the sin of Bob (who also never mentioned gun grabs or laws or control) was not that he commented outside football and not that he called for any kind of political action; it was blasphemy. Because that's really what it is, and that's really how anyone that dares question Almighty Gun gets treated. We have a Firearm Religion, and within that we have pious fundamentalists.

QED here. Personally I find them more mental than fun.

If that Gun Religion background doesn't make the list, it should at least be a subset of #1. Actually it should be a rewrite of #1. As long as the cultural image is not allowed to be questioned, we will never move forward. When we start marking time by mass shooting events rather than months (Aurora; Oak Creek; Minneapolis; Kansas City; Klackamas; Newtown; Webster... that's six events in five months right there*), it's clearly something we need to move forward from. But like any Taliban or Inquisition, the fundamentalists will keep trying to shut that forward motion down and keep us mired in a backward past that has no future.

IMHO.

(* and when you mention, say "Minneapolis shooting" and you have to define "which one", the matter is truly epidemic)

 

[saveliberty]

Crazy people are killing people. I'm sure the "culture" of violence IS a factor, but you are not talking about ways to realistically modify that. You keep talking about reducing the guns out in society. When asked directly how you plan on doing that you deflect back to this argument. Its a protection culture actually, guns just happen to be the Constitutionally protected way of doing that most effectively.

 

[PredFan]

I'll go with #2 first and foremost. Then #1 (which is a vast overlap), and add #10: the NRA and the gun manufacturers profiting off the testosteroned-poisoned paranoia they sell.

All the rest pretty much applies to other countries, yet they don't have this gun violence culture. So we narrow down to what is uniquely ours.

Guns are "how", we are looking at "why". No one kills another person because they want to make money for the NRA and gun manufacturers.

No, of course not. That's the backwards of what I'm saying; people don't buy guns to make money for the NRA and gunmongers; Gunmongers and the NRA do what they do to make money. And if recent reports of runs on guns are accurate, it's working. As Mencken noted, nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public. Perhaps a better way to state this point would be "the easy and plentiful availability of firearms". That's not the cause of this madness by itself, but it does facilitate it (by contrast when Australia cleaned up its national gun stock, such violence went way down). So it is a contributing factor, since without such easy availability the motivation and opportunity might be present but without the means, you don't have an event.

I am aware that there is overlap between #1 and #2, yet they are still separate, and yes, that is what we are attempting to discuss. Why are these deaths happening? What is causing these people to do these things, and why can't we identify them before it happens?

You're asking about motivations, so I still go back to #2 first, foremost and predominantly. Bob Costas tried to bring this up back on December 2nd and got shouted down for it, yet with Klackamas and Newtown and Webster all taking place after that commentary (and we're not even out of the month yet) he was clearly prescient.

This is a conversation the Gnuts don't want happening. And for that matter the NRA and gunmongers don't want it happening either since it could be bad for business. That's why they tried to reframe that commentary, and so many others, into a "gun control" issue about taking gun-pacifiers away.

That's a rhetorical false flag operation.

But the root cause of that gun fetishism, the underlying dynamic they're trying to sidestep, very much is the examination we need to do.

Here's how one wag summed it up the psychology:

... we are a nation founded on genocide and built on the backs of slaves. We slaughtered 600,000 of each other in a civil war. We "tamed the Wild West with a six-shooter," and we rape and beat and kill our women without mercy and at a staggering rate: every three hours a women is murdered in the USA (half the time by an ex or a current); every three minutes a woman is raped in the USA; and every 15 seconds a woman is beaten in the USA.

We belong to an illustrious group of nations that still have the death penalty (North Korea, Saudi Arabia, China, Iran). We think nothing of letting tens of thousands of our own citizens die each year because they are uninsured and thus don't see a doctor until it's too late.

(Celebrating the Prince of Peace in the Land of Guns)

Guns don't kill people by themselves. But the people that use them for that purpose need motivation. Motivations don't happen in a vacuum. They're built up over time.

Dude i don't know how to make this any simpler.

There are dozens of threads on gun control, you want to spout that nonsense then go there. This thread is about the REAL issue; why these kinds of things are happening. You want to talk about that then fine, you want to ignore the problem and push a idiotic agenda, then go somewhere else.

 

[PredFan]

Poor POGO, now he's dissing over half the population who supports gun rights. Then he launches into a circular reasoning rant. Anyway you slice it, it comes back to take guns from law abiding citizens.

Ignore him until he leaves or decides to join in on the intelligent talk.