Let's unpack some of the right wing's delusion and dishonesty. Is universal healthcare socialism?

[dudmuck]

We already have a government run health care system. It is the VA. It is better than any foreign socialized medicine system but falls far short of private health care in the US.

I could get health care free if I used the system but I don't want to put up with the bueracracy and inefficiencies.

Health care is too important to an individual to put in the hands of the non caring government.

Somebody would have to be an idiot to support any kind of government managed national heath care system.

non caring government?
Does that mean private insurance companies care?

 

[justinacolmena]

in your simple mind, if one falls, thats because he/she is a "lazy slacker" who is not trying hard enough...

That's all you have? Seriously? People can and do make cost-based decision during an emergency? You are joking? So the guy who is unconscious from a car accident and needs life saving care makes a lot of cost-based decisions? That is funny. Thanks for the laugh.

His family makes those decisions, or he has legal documentation specifying his preferences. Why is that funny?

Interesting. There’s a gender and “family” is enforcing medical decisions against an unwanted family member’s will. And a whole crew of doctors and lawyers is standing around to extract a pound of flesh for payment, verify health insurance coverage, and fill out a death certificate.

 

[dblack]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

Markets don't work in healthcare for obvious reasons. Counter my emergency room example if you can.

Sure, I'll "counter" it.

Your emergency room example fails to adequately account for healthcare inflation for several reasons. First, you're talking about emergencies - by definition, exceptional situations. The vast bulk of our health care spending decisions are not made in an emergency. Second, people can and do make cost-based decisions during an emergency, if they are responsible for the costs. I know, I've been there and done that. Third, your "emergency room example" only affects prices for emergency services, and that's not the real problem when it comes to healthcare costs. The real problem is that the prices for basic, routine healthcare services cost more than the average person can afford.

Here's a better example of what drives healthcare inflation: Recently my doctor prescribed a skin cream for my psoriasis. It was new, so I figured it would be expensive. When I picked up my prescription, the price was $40 - for, maybe, two months worth. When I balked at the price, the pharmacist laughed. The forty dollars was my copay. The actual cost for the cream was $325 a tube. I was furious at the stupidity of such a scam, but my doctor said it was good stuff so I paid the forty dollars. My doctor was right, the cream works pretty well. But there's no way in hell I'd pay $325 dollars for a tube of it. No person in their right mind would. The only reason the drug company gets away with charging that much is because their customers have insurance that covers prescription medication.

This kind of cost/benefit decision occurs much, much more often than your "emergency room example". Every single time a healthcare consumer is faced with a cost based decision, that doesn't actually cost them any money, they have an inverted incentive - they have every reason to prefer the more expensive option rather than the less expensive. That's where the market incentives break down.

You are just plain starting out wrong here, I'm giving it as one example of healthcare inflation. By no means am I claiming it's the only reason. It's simply one of several reasons why markets don't work. You are also wrong in your claim that it's not a problem. Nobody is going bankrupt from routine services. So yes emergency services are a big problem. You have not offered a real counter, you have really tried to downplay emergency service. If you attempt to cut routine services by cutting out health insurance the cost of catastrophic care will quickly increase. You have no real answer.

So, I offered a counter to your "example". I didn't expect you to accept it, or even read it, but I did the work. How's about you get off your lazy ass and do likewise. You never address my arguments, always choosing insults and quips over actual debate. Here's your chance to do better. Counter my example. Here it is again, in case you didn't bother to read it the first time:

Here's a better example of what drives healthcare inflation: Recently my doctor prescribed a skin cream for my psoriasis. It was new, so I figured it would be expensive. When I picked up my prescription, the price was $40 - for, maybe, two months worth. When I balked at the price, the pharmacist laughed. The forty dollars was my copay. The actual cost for the cream was $325 a tube. I was furious at the stupidity of such a scam, but my doctor said it was good stuff so I paid the forty dollars. My doctor was right, the cream works pretty well. But there's no way in hell I'd pay $325 dollars for a tube of it. No person in their right mind would. The only reason the drug company gets away with charging that much is because their customers have insurance that covers prescription medication.

You did not counter the cost of emergency care. You pretended they aren't important and tried to give your own example. You offered nothing market driven that would lower the cost of emergency care.

Of course I did. You just steered around it. The reason healthcare prices are inflated is because hardly anyone is paying for their own healthcare. They have no skin in the game and no reason to demand lower prices. No market could function under such a scheme.

For your example you paid $40 for the prescription. Do you really think you have a way to lower that cost?

We're talking about the price of the prescription, not the copay. And yes, I'm quite sure that if most people were paying for their own prescriptions, the price would come down.

Of course you did not. You offered no market force that will lower the cost of emergency care. Please repeat it if you did.

Second, people can and do make cost-based decisions during an emergency, if they are responsible for the costs.

That's all you have? Seriously? People can and do make cost-based decision during an emergency? You are joking?

Not a bit. As I said, I've been there.

So the guy who is unconscious from a car accident and needs life saving care makes a lot of cost-based decisions? That is funny. Thanks for the laugh.

His family makes those decisions, or he has legal documentation specifying his preferences. Why is that funny?

I find your idea of a legal document humorous also. You think lawyers work real cheap? Sounds like you would be adding lots of legal costs to the system. You better try again.

Nah. I've made my case. You're approval is not required.

I've shown how it is full of holes. We agree on much and you are a smart guy. You will come around eventually, I was once in your shoes.

You really haven't. Even an emergency, people will choose the cheaper alternative if they are paying for it themselves. If not, they'll choose the most expensive option. There's nothing inherent in healthcare, or free markets, that removes downward price pressure. That comes from the fact that we're overinsured, and that healthcare and health insurance are over-regulated.

 

[justinacolmena]

We already have a government run health care system. It is the VA. It is better than any foreign socialized medicine system but falls far short of private health care in the US.

I could get health care free if I used the system but I don't want to put up with the bueracracy and inefficiencies.

You’re veteran and you fought for a loser health care system?
VA unlawfully turned away vulnerable veterans for decades, study says, with 400,000 more at risk

V.A. Criticized for Effort to Keep Some Veterans Away From Private Care During Outbreak (Published 2020)

By Wednesday morning, the White House sought to correct the impression that the department was putting a pause on the Mission Act.

www.nytimes.com

VA Will Now Let You Go to Civilian Urgent Care Doctors

The expansion of the VA's private-care network makes it easier to see a civilian doctor for many services.

www.military.com

Veterans Do Not Need Permission For Non-VA Emergency Room Visits Says VA Video

VA now says veterans do not need to check in with VA prior to reporting to non-VA emergency room facilities during an emergency. But the wording in the video is slippery with a lot of hedging langu…

www.disabledveterans.org

 

[justinacolmena]

people will choose the cheaper alternative if they are paying for it themselves. If not, they'll choose the most expensive option.

Set the broken bone in a cast, or just amputate the whole leg?

 

[percysunshine]

You'll often see conservatives argue that any social program is socialism and then in the next breath they'll say the Scandinavian countries are capitalist and not socialist when people point to how well they do over there. Well they have universal healthcare and very expansive social safety nets. Are those things socialism or not in your world view? You hypocrites can't have your cake and eat it too. Either the Scandinavian countries are socialist in your view or things like universal healthcare are not actually socialism. There are no Democrats arguing for the government to completely take over the private sector. They want universal healthcare and government funded universities like in the Scandinavian nations. At least get your shit straight and make a consistent argument.

What has the Venezuelan health care system accomplished?

 

[Flash]

We already have a government run health care system. It is the VA. It is better than any foreign socialized medicine system but falls far short of private health care in the US.

I could get health care free if I used the system but I don't want to put up with the bueracracy and inefficiencies.

You’re veteran and you fought for a loser health care system?
VA unlawfully turned away vulnerable veterans for decades, study says, with 400,000 more at risk

V.A. Criticized for Effort to Keep Some Veterans Away From Private Care During Outbreak (Published 2020)

By Wednesday morning, the White House sought to correct the impression that the department was putting a pause on the Mission Act.

www.nytimes.com

VA Will Now Let You Go to Civilian Urgent Care Doctors

The expansion of the VA's private-care network makes it easier to see a civilian doctor for many services.

www.military.com

Veterans Do Not Need Permission For Non-VA Emergency Room Visits Says VA Video

VA now says veterans do not need to check in with VA prior to reporting to non-VA emergency room facilities during an emergency. But the wording in the video is slippery with a lot of hedging langu…

www.disabledveterans.org

If your point is that the VA is fucked up and that is a great example of how the Government screws up everything it touches and we shouldn't trust them with our health care then I agree with you.

 

[Bush92]

You'll often see conservatives argue that any social program is socialism and then in the next breath they'll say the Scandinavian countries are capitalist and not socialist when people point to how well they do over there. Well they have universal healthcare and very expansive social safety nets. Are those things socialism or not in your world view? You hypocrites can't have your cake and eat it too. Either the Scandinavian countries are socialist in your view or things like universal healthcare are not actually socialism. There are no Democrats arguing for the government to completely take over the private sector. They want universal healthcare and government funded universities like in the Scandinavian nations. At least get your shit straight and make a consistent argument.

Millions died under communism/ socialism you goddamn shitbag motherfuckers! I only wish I could have killed more communist dirtbags like you. Dated a medical student from Romania. She lived there during Cold War. She is a doctor now and loves America. She stayed that socialist nations limit economic mobility.

 

[Anomalism]

wish I could have killed more communist dirtbags like you.

You're a homicidal lunatic.

 

[percysunshine]

wish I could have killed more communist dirtbags like you.

You're a homicidal lunatic.

Naw...this is Christmas...everyone has a wish list.

 

[OldLady]

M

You'll often see conservatives argue that any social program is socialism and then in the next breath they'll say the Scandinavian countries are capitalist and not socialist when people point to how well they do over there. Well they have universal healthcare and very expansive social safety nets. Are those things socialism or not in your world view? You hypocrites can't have your cake and eat it too. Either the Scandinavian countries are socialist in your view or things like universal healthcare are not actually socialism. There are no Democrats arguing for the government to completely take over the private sector. They want universal healthcare and government funded universities like in the Scandinavian nations. At least get your shit straight and make a consistent argument.

Maybe if we didn't spend half our discretionary budget on the military, we could afford to. It's going to take a long time to shift our priorities to social programs without spending money we haven't got. You can't justify all those social programs without taking it away from something else first. There are plenty of places it could be done, starting with streamlining and simplifying government agencies' SOP. Bureaucracies are the least efficient management system in the world. Private contractors may save us some money paying employee benefits and pensions, but they are still dealing with a hairball of red tape that confounds everyone.

Meanwhile, nothing changes in where we put our money.

 

[Anomalism]

Maybe if we didn't spend half our discretionary budget on the military, we could afford to. It's going to take a long time to shift our priorities to social programs without spending money we haven't got. You can't justify all those social programs without taking it away from something else first. There are plenty of places it could be done, starting with streamlining and simplifying government agencies' SOP. Bureaucracies are the least efficient management system in the world. Private contractors may save us some money paying employee benefits and pensions, but they are still dealing with a hairball of red tape that confounds everyone.

Meanwhile, nothing changes in where we put our money.

Woah! Where did you come from? You should post more aggressively and more often.

You're absolutely right. Our current framework doesn't allow us to afford more social safety nets at all unless we're going to get into even more goofy amounts of debt. How do we give ourselves more wiggle room? That's a complicated question.

I get frustrated with the right wingers that suggest they agree with Donald that we shouldn't have so much military abroad while simultaneously being impossible in a discussion about lowering military spending. If you give the military that much money it's going to find ways to use it. Not policing the whole world with our military will involve lowering the amount of money we spend on it. I've never seen a breakdown of the numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if we could halve our military expenditure just by removing our presence abroad.

 

[OldLady]

Maybe if we didn't spend half our discretionary budget on the military, we could afford to. It's going to take a long time to shift our priorities to social programs without spending money we haven't got. You can't justify all those social programs without taking it away from something else first. There are plenty of places it could be done, starting with streamlining and simplifying government agencies' SOP. Bureaucracies are the least efficient management system in the world. Private contractors may save us some money paying employee benefits and pensions, but they are still dealing with a hairball of red tape that confounds everyone.

Meanwhile, nothing changes in where we put our money.

Woah! Where did you come from? You should post more aggressively and more often.

You're absolutely right. Our current framework doesn't allow us to afford more social safety nets at all unless we're going to get into even more goofy amounts of debt. How do we give ourselves more wiggle room? That's a complicated question.

I get frustrated with the right wingers that suggest they agree with Donald that we shouldn't have so much military abroad while simultaneously being impossible in a discussion about lowering military spending. If you give the military that much money it's going to find ways to use it. Not policing the whole world with our military will involve lowering the amount of money we spend on it. I've never seen a breakdown of the numbers but I wouldn't be surprised if we could halve our military expenditure just by removing our presence abroad.

Military spending is a complicated issue. We certainly want to remain secure as a country that people think twice about messing with. But I keep remembering Heller's Catch 22, and what a seemingly impossible task it will be to bring it around to an outfit that meets our needs without laying on top of us like a 500 lb corpse. When Obama tried paring away just a tiny fraction of their budget, suddenly we were hearing sobs that our fighter jets were so old that we had to raid museums for parts.

 

[Anomalism]

Military spending is a complicated issue. We certainly want to remain secure as a country that people think twice about messing with. But I keep remembering Heller's Catch 22, and what a seemingly impossible task it will be to bring it around to an outfit that meets our needs without laying on top of us like a 500 lb corpse. When Obama tried paring away just a tiny fraction of their budget, suddenly we were hearing sobs that our fighter jets were so old that we had to raid museums for parts.

I think we'd gain a lot of security just by not sticking our dick in everything and waving our guns everywhere.

 

[OldLady]

Military spending is a complicated issue. We certainly want to remain secure as a country that people think twice about messing with. But I keep remembering Heller's Catch 22, and what a seemingly impossible task it will be to bring it around to an outfit that meets our needs without laying on top of us like a 500 lb corpse. When Obama tried paring away just a tiny fraction of their budget, suddenly we were hearing sobs that our fighter jets were so old that we had to raid museums for parts.

I think we'd gain a lot of security just by not sticking our dick in everything and waving our guns everywhere.

I'll leave that to the experts. Don't pretend to know a whole lot about that.

 

[Anomalism]

I'll leave that to the experts. Don't pretend to know a whole lot about that.

It just seems like common sense that if we're pissing less people off it will reduce our chances of being the target of hostilities.

 

[Blues Man]

Markets don't work for health care - MarketWatch

>>> In fact, totally free markets are abysmally bad at delivering health care. That's why every advanced economy, to one degree or another, has given government a large role in providing health care to its citizens.​

>>> We've tried the market approach to health care and the result has always been the same: Poor health and poor people.​

>>> Poverty and disease go together, and the causation goes both ways. Show me a country that keeps the government out of health care and I'll show you a country that spends too much on death and not enough on life.​

>>> I'm not arguing that everything government does is good, or that everything the private sector does is bad. It's clear that government actions can have their own failures that make health care more expensive or less effective. All I'm arguing here is that relying on markets exclusively leaves us poorer and sicker.​

Straight from the spokesman of a Communist Party politburo.

If it's some kind of pill or medication, free markets are amazingly efficient at delivering it. If it's something to be forced on patients against their will, then of course there’s always a market for extortion, forced drugging, and involuntary hospitalization under the explicit blessing and protection of government.

The real healthcare market is precisely in the government intervention to enforce routine mayhem, involuntary vaccination, mass murder, and abortion-on-demand at the pleasure of street hookers for every patron of prostitutes and dead-beat dad on the block.

If healthcare is a “good” for individuals making their own decisions, then there is no reason why a free market cannot deliver it. It is when prostitutes have to be involuntarily committed for healthcare against their will and extorted and beaten for the payment of it that government must intervene.

The price of healthcare rises and rises because there is no market pressure for it to decrease.

Because of state policies that interfere with market pressure. Revoke them, and prices normalize.

we have never had a transparent pricing model for medical care.

Therefore the consumer can put no pressure on medical service providers to lower their prices.

If any person could walk into a Dr office and see a menu of services offered and the price for each then we could apply market pressure to the health care industry and prices would drop and service would get better

It hardly matters. Emergency and life saving care are the big bills. You have no real choice in emergency care and nobody is going to pick the budget option for life saving care.

and catastrophic care insurance is cheaper than universal health care. All you would need is an insurance policy that covers injuries and severe illness like i used to have before Obama care made me pay for all kinds of shit I don't need and will never use

If you knew the cost of a physical, X rays, lab work etc you then you could shop around for the best price and the best service.

and it would amount to a huge savings.

If you cut out insurance companies on routine care what do you think will happen to the cost of catastrophic care? You only offer a bandaid for a life threatening wound....

where did i say to cut them out?

Make health insurance that covers routine care the responsibility of the consumer.

Get rid of the people drs have to hire to wade through the morass of paperwork required for simple things like physicals , labs and x rays. colonoscopies and breast cancer screening etc etc etc.

Have the consumer submit their bills to their insurance company rather than making a hospital employ hundreds of people to deal with insurance paper work for routine care.

allow consumers to shop around instead of being tied to this network or that network.

The savings will be enormous.

So you have no real answer for the increasing cost of emergency care and life saving surgery, and you will create a ton of work for all consumers. So more work and costs will still increase.

Or we could follow one of the universal healthcare models and drastically lower costs and not have to jump through hoops for everything.

you said yourself that routine care isn't the issue so let people take care of that themselves

That doesn't really fix anything. If you make routine care cheaper by cutting out insurance then catastrophic insurance will drastically increase.

no it won't.

your entire plan is to make routine care expensive so that catastrophic care will be less expensive?

That is idiotic.

you yourself said that routine care doesn't matter so why force people to pay insurance for it?

and forcing everyone to buy insurance was supposed to decrease the cost and that hasn't happened

 

[The Rabbi]

Is universal healthcare socialism?

Are the Scandinavian countries socialist?

If you're not an idiot your answers to both of those questions will be the same.

You clearly aren't getting this. Every system has features of socialism (state interference in the market) and capitalism. Just because a state has a feature of socialism, like single payer healthcare, doesn't necessarily mean the state is socialist. Sweden has many features of capitalism, like strong private propery rights, but also features of socialism. But if Sweden is so attractive, Delta is ready when you are.

 

[Cecilie1200]

We already have a government run health care system. It is the VA. It is better than any foreign socialized medicine system but falls far short of private health care in the US.

I could get health care free if I used the system but I don't want to put up with the bueracracy and inefficiencies.

Health care is too important to an individual to put in the hands of the non caring government.

Somebody would have to be an idiot to support any kind of government managed national heath care system.

non caring government?
Does that mean private insurance companies care?

No, but it does mean that they have a motivation to behave as though they do to a certain extent. Soulless corporation that they are, my health insurance provider gives far better customer service than any government agency I've ever dealt with.

 

[Flash]

We already have a government run health care system. It is the VA. It is better than any foreign socialized medicine system but falls far short of private health care in the US.

I could get health care free if I used the system but I don't want to put up with the bueracracy and inefficiencies.

Health care is too important to an individual to put in the hands of the non caring government.

Somebody would have to be an idiot to support any kind of government managed national heath care system.

non caring government?
Does that mean private insurance companies care?

No, but it does mean that they have a motivation to behave as though they do to a certain extent. Soulless corporation that they are, my health insurance provider gives far better customer service than any government agency I've ever dealt with.

The soulless VA killed a lot of veterans with substandard health care during the Obama administration.

Meanwhile I had three quality private health care facilities vying for my business when I had my cancer. The one I chose gave me excellent service in a very timely manner. Paid for by insurance that was was glad to provide service according to the contract I had with them.

I probably would have died of the cancer waiting for the stupid non caring government bureaucrats to fix my problem.

I trust companies providing quality service to me at a competitive price a lot more than I trust stupid asshole government bureaucrats that don't give a shit.