Liberal arguments for supporting gun ownership rights

[Cecilie1200]

I doubt he has evidence to support the notion of 1,000,000 Americans dead by gunfire without including military casualties, suicides and people who were wounded and latered died of something else entirely...

I don't doubt for a second that he uses the same sort of generalized, doctored stats that give us horrifying numbers on "children" killed and injured by firearms, and includes gang members as old as 17,18, and 19 as "children".

 

[Chris]

I don't doubt for a second that he uses the same sort of generalized, doctored stats that give us horrifying numbers on "children" killed and injured by firearms, and includes gang members as old as 17,18, and 19 as "children".

Fatal Firearm Injuries in the United States - NCIPC

 

[Chris]

Members of handgun-owning families were twice as likely to die in a suicide or homicide as members of the same age, sex, and neighborhood who had no history of handgun purchase.
These increased risks persisted for more than five years after the purchase.

The association between the purchase of a handgun and homicide or suicide. -- Cummings et al. 87 (6): 974 -- American Journal of Public Health

VPC - Where Did You Get That Statistic? - Firearms Violence - General

 

[Harry Dresden]

Chris.....what is it about you?.....when you were a little kid did someone point a gun at you and threaten you with it?.....you do realize that if you take out gang related deaths the gun deaths drop dramatically.....or are you going to just keep on posting the same disproven anti-gun rhetoric....out of the entire "LEGAL" gun owners in America,you may get gun violence out of 1%....out of all the criminal element who own guns,probably 100% gun violence at some point in time.....relax and stay out of the shitty parts of town,those guys are going to get guns no matter what you or any anti-gun person does....and remember,the police,the guys you are depending on,will not get to your house until the guy who breaks in has already done is evil deed and is gone.....no thanks Chris,i will defend myself.....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Lott made up his facts.

He can't even provide documentation for his "survey."

1,000,000 Americans dead by gunfire. Those are the facts.

yea your right Chris he did....remember Gary Kleck an anti-gun guy,did his book to counter these phony facts that Lott was putting forth,well now Gary after doing his research,is not so anti-gun anymore....i guess Lott had a few facts that were not so made up as you claim...

 

[garyd]

Chris almost 90% of gun violence is committed by people who cannot legally own a gun any way. columbine? Those two ass clowns broke over 20 gun laws what makes you think another ones going to matter?

Your first link won't let anyone not a university prof see the info. Given the number of studies lately in which conclusions are drawn that the information cited does not prove I think I'll stick with ones that I can actually read.

 

[geonerd20]

I also think that anyone who allows a minor to handle and use a gun should be subject to harsh penalties. Take the case of the young boy who shot and killed his father and friend. While any death is unfortunate, it could have been much worse. This boy could have taken the gun to school and killed a bunch of other innocent kids, as opposed to the moron who taught him to use the gun in the first place, and then failed to keep the gun in a secure place, out of reach of a minor! I am generally ok with incidents such as this because it is one way of cleaning out the gene pool, I guess!

 

[Chris]

Chris almost 90% of gun violence is committed by people who cannot legally own a gun any way. columbine? Those two ass clowns broke over 20 gun laws what makes you think another ones going to matter?

Your first link won't let anyone not a university prof see the info. Given the number of studies lately in which conclusions are drawn that the information cited does not prove I think I'll stick with ones that I can actually read.

VPC - Who Dies - Appendix One

 

[Father Time]

Hey I have a question was our country founded on 'give me liberty or give me death' or was it Franklin who said "Giving up an essential liberty for safety is a really good idea"?

 

[mightypeon]

I think that the crux is what kind of guns one regulates in which way. Switzerland for example has a higher rate of assault rifles per person than the USA, but Pistols are almost totally abolished. Swiss cities do of course not have as many crimogenic factors as, lets say New York, but both Zuerich and Bern are home to significant unemployed immigrant populations.
I would really like some statistics on the kind of guns used in criminal assaults, I bet that these guns will predominantly be easy to conceal pistols.
I also think that all reasonable aims of gun owners can be satisfied with rifles.

 

[Chris]

I think that the crux is what kind of guns one regulates in which way. Switzerland for example has a higher rate of assault rifles per person than the USA, but Pistols are almost totally abolished. Swiss cities do of course not have as many crimogenic factors as, lets say New York, but both Zuerich and Bern are home to significant unemployed immigrant populations.
I would really like some statistics on the kind of guns used in criminal assaults, I bet that these guns will predominantly be easy to conceal pistols.
I also think that all reasonable aims of gun owners can be satisfied with rifles.

That's it in a nutshell. Handguns are the weapon of choice for criminals.

But the problem is not just homicide, it's suicide and accidents as well. Guns are a threat to their owners and their families. Why? Because a gun makes it easy to kill yourself or others in a fit of passion or depression or drunkenness.

 

[mightypeon]

Several Swiss I talked about admitted that they pay with quite a number of suicides per year for their gun ratio, although suicide attempts per se are not higher in Switzerland than in other highly developed countries, they suceed much more often since it is really hard to try killing yourself with and assault rifle and fail.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Hey I have a question was our country founded on 'give me liberty or give me death' or was it Franklin who said "Giving up an essential liberty for safety is a really good idea"?

I don't think our country was founded on bumper stickers slogan since cars weren't invented yet, but then again what do I know?

 

[Father Time]

I don't think our country was founded on bumper stickers slogan since cars weren't invented yet, but then again what do I know?

Well let's see the first part is almost the slogan of New Hampshire (and I'm pretty sure a slogan of ye olde rebels), and the second part is the exact opposite of a Ben Franklin quote. ...

Anyway there's this quote by Jefferson which is really nice

"what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure"

From Revolution to Reconstruction: Presidents: Thomas Jefferson: Letters: THE NEW CONSTITUTION

Anyway

"Because a gun makes it easy to kill yourself or others in a fit of passion or depression or drunkenness"

As do knives, shall we ban those next? Britain seems to be going down that slope with really ugly results. Alcohol is also required to kill someone in drunkenness, shall we ban that next (because that worked out oh so well in the 20s). After all alcohol is a threat to families because one of them can drink too much and then beat up or kill their family, or a child can get to the alcohol drink it and die of alcohol poisoning.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I think that the crux is what kind of guns one regulates in which way. Switzerland for example has a higher rate of assault rifles per person than the USA, but Pistols are almost totally abolished. Swiss cities do of course not have as many crimogenic factors as, lets say New York, but both Zuerich and Bern are home to significant unemployed immigrant populations.
I would really like some statistics on the kind of guns used in criminal assaults, I bet that these guns will predominantly be easy to conceal pistols.
I also think that all reasonable aims of gun owners can be satisfied with rifles.

So long as everyone defines "reasonable" as "what mightypeon thinks is reasonable", one assumes.

 

[garyd]

Chris why are you including suicides given that in the overwhelming majority of the cases the person attempting to end his own life would simply find another means to that end. It is after all a fairly simple process to end you own life. All you need is a few minutes alone or behind the wheel to get the job done. Japan has almost no privately held fire arms and one of the highest suicide rates in the world and guns are almost never used.

 

[LOki]

That's it in a nutshell. Handguns are the weapon of choice for criminals.

Handguns are the weapon of choice for personal self-defense.

But the problem is not just homicide, it's suicide and accidents as well. Guns are a threat to their owners and their families.

You keep saying this as if it's a fact, without any evidence.

Why?

This is goin to be rich.

Because a gun makes it easy to kill yourself . . .

Which is the point of suicide, right? Use the right tool for the job.

. . . or others . . .

Particularly easy if they have been disarmed by some retarded legislation.

. . . in a fit of passion or depression or drunkenness.

Nothing's worse than a suicide chump.

 

[LOki]

Chris why are you including suicides given that in the overwhelming majority of the cases the person attempting to end his own life would simply find another means to that end. It is after all a fairly simple process to end you own life. All you need is a few minutes alone or behind the wheel to get the job done. Japan has almost no privately held fire arms and one of the highest suicide rates in the world and guns are almost never used.

Entirely irrelevent to Chris. For Chris, [some other kind of] death is better than "gun death." He just won't let you know why he thinks [some other kind of] death is better than "gun death."

 

[garyd]

To paraphrase Archie Bunker: Would he be any happier if the jumped out of buildings???

 

[mightypeon]

On the issue of knifes beeing so deadly, let me tell you that defending yourself against a knife while beeing unarmed and unready is possible. Against a gun it is not.
I propably owe my life to German gun control policies which insured that a bunch of muggers that attacked me only had knifes and not guns. Since even with no gun laws, I would not bring a gun to a party (for a lot of reasons, people get drunk on parties, drunk + gun = Bad. Apart from that, guns are expensive and may be lost in the same way as a moblie phone or a wallet), I would have been unarmed anyway.
The same approach would not work in the US because there are to many guns around already, if you would try to implement an all out ban like in the UK you would get the same problems, propably in an even worse way.

May I ask precisly what you feel to be unable to do with a Rifle/Assault Rilfe and what you could do with a handgun?
For Home defense, I would definitly take an assault rifle, more power, can be used in close combat, and in that situation I could not care less if I shoot through some walls (which can be avoided by cleverly choosing your weapon and your ammunition). For defending myself against a tyrannical gouverment I would use improvised Explosive devices anyway, since the gouverment would propably know wether and which gun I have and could trace it to me quite easily. Even if they could not do that, engaging conventional military forces in a shootout is not conductive to your average life expectancy.
But if they come for me an Assault rifle would be way nicer than a handgun again.
The only thing that is difficult is concealed carry. But ask yourself, will beeing unable to carry arms in a concealed way hurt you more or will it hurt the criminals more?

Concerning the way of actually removing handguns, I would favor a simple ban of selling them. This approach would prevent ugly "Shes a Witch! I mean she has a Gun!" Witchhunts. It would also be easier to implement. Apart from that I figure that conficating guns, which are after all expensive property, would not be very constitutional.
Since the majority of the criminals are propably not deeply trained in how to keep a gun operational, it may after some years even lead to a scenarios were legtimate gun owners have handguns and criminals not so much.