Liberals On Abortion

[SAYIT]

Exactly what I said here: ...haters of America attack the Founders as a proxy, and continue to lie no matter how many times they are corrected.

Well, when you give me ACTUAL EVIDENCE, then you can correct. What you've given me is an alternative theory. Not really any proof of anything.

Readers already understand what you are, and why you do what you do. Live with it.

I sometimes wonder if "progressives" (pronounced: regressives) who eagerly come out of their closet to openly celebrate their agenda actually believe no one can see them or have convinced themselves and each other that to deny the obvious is all the defense they need? They remind me of the 1 yr old in a high chair who believes covering her eyes makes her invisible - and therefore not required to eat the squished peas - because she can't see us. The good news is their denials will fall on deaf ears by Nov 2020.

View attachment 265276

How to explain the number of them that have abandoned logic, experience, knowledge, and morality????

Trying to jam large, ideological pegs into small holes requires constant rationalizing as to why they don't fit. Usually they end up blaming capitalism or America or their parents but years of frustration stunts their mental and emotional development and drives 'em all bat-shit crazy. They end up full-grown angry, bitter, petulant children wedded to their ideology and unable to see their way out.

A 12 Step Program for Recovering Liberals

 

[Dana7360]

“Second, the right to life underlies and sustains every other right we have.

It is, as Thomas Jefferson and his friends said, self-evident. Logically, as well as in our Declaration of Independence, it comes before the right to liberty and the right to property.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Thomas Jefferson.

And he was so proud of himself that he went right home and raped Sally Hemmings, because that bitch was his property!

Just to put it all in the proper perspective, I'm sure she'd have loved to be able to abort a few of Jefferson's rape babies.

As is the case with so very many of your hate-filled posts, there is no proof of this anti-American meme.

"The media was swept up by the story. It’s so compelling, so seductive, to a society consumed by racial matters, that even the Wall Street Journal, which has diligently maintained a critical eye on the claims of Thomas Jefferson’s paternity, had inadvertently stamped its imprimatur onto the tale. Much to the distress of some of the editors, the statement "DNA testing would reveal that our nation's third president had almost certainly fathered several [slave] children,” slipped by in a Leisure & Arts section book review, demonstrating just how deeply ingrained the “myth of Tom and Sally” has become ["Poisoned Quills" March 8, 2006, p.D14].

In such an environment, Annette Gordon-Reed could make almost any sensational claim --- on the narrowest or most twisted of evidence --- about a relationship between Thomas Jefferson and a female slave on his plantation, and be assured that she would find an excited reception and little scrutiny, particularly as the book’s publishing schedule also coincided with the election of a popular president of mixed heritage. Rare is the full-length article on The Hemingses of Monticello that fails to draw any number of connections to President Barak Obama, and Gordon-Reed has both written and made public addresses on the genuine significance of Americans electing an African-American president.

As for the sticky matter of how she moves back and forth at will between point "A" (does not prove) and point "B" (fathered everybody), despite any meaningful change in the physical evidence, Gordon-Reed is content in the knowledge that even if more people catch on to the shenanigans, she will always find a welcoming audience. The members of the various awards committees certainly don’t appear to have noticed this. Or, perhaps, if some did, it was of no particular concern to them."

- See more at: Annette Gordon-Reed and the Jefferson DNA Myth | History News Network



Is there anyone....including yourself.....that you don't hate?

Actually DNA tests were run in 1998 with relatives of Jefferson and Hemings.

The DNA proves you very wrong. The DNA proves that Jefferson fathered at least one child with Sally Hemings.

DNA Test Finds Evidence Of Jefferson Child by Slave

 

[PoliticalChic]

“Second, the right to life underlies and sustains every other right we have.

It is, as Thomas Jefferson and his friends said, self-evident. Logically, as well as in our Declaration of Independence, it comes before the right to liberty and the right to property.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Thomas Jefferson.

And he was so proud of himself that he went right home and raped Sally Hemmings, because that bitch was his property!

Just to put it all in the proper perspective, I'm sure she'd have loved to be able to abort a few of Jefferson's rape babies.

As is the case with so very many of your hate-filled posts, there is no proof of this anti-American meme.

"The media was swept up by the story. It’s so compelling, so seductive, to a society consumed by racial matters, that even the Wall Street Journal, which has diligently maintained a critical eye on the claims of Thomas Jefferson’s paternity, had inadvertently stamped its imprimatur onto the tale. Much to the distress of some of the editors, the statement "DNA testing would reveal that our nation's third president had almost certainly fathered several [slave] children,” slipped by in a Leisure & Arts section book review, demonstrating just how deeply ingrained the “myth of Tom and Sally” has become ["Poisoned Quills" March 8, 2006, p.D14].

In such an environment, Annette Gordon-Reed could make almost any sensational claim --- on the narrowest or most twisted of evidence --- about a relationship between Thomas Jefferson and a female slave on his plantation, and be assured that she would find an excited reception and little scrutiny, particularly as the book’s publishing schedule also coincided with the election of a popular president of mixed heritage. Rare is the full-length article on The Hemingses of Monticello that fails to draw any number of connections to President Barak Obama, and Gordon-Reed has both written and made public addresses on the genuine significance of Americans electing an African-American president.

As for the sticky matter of how she moves back and forth at will between point "A" (does not prove) and point "B" (fathered everybody), despite any meaningful change in the physical evidence, Gordon-Reed is content in the knowledge that even if more people catch on to the shenanigans, she will always find a welcoming audience. The members of the various awards committees certainly don’t appear to have noticed this. Or, perhaps, if some did, it was of no particular concern to them."

- See more at: Annette Gordon-Reed and the Jefferson DNA Myth | History News Network



Is there anyone....including yourself.....that you don't hate?

Actually DNA tests were run in 1998 with relatives of Jefferson and Hemings.

The DNA proves you very wrong. The DNA proves that Jefferson fathered at least one child with Sally Hemings.

DNA Test Finds Evidence Of Jefferson Child by Slave

1. I'm never wrong.

2. You actually believe anything in the NYTimes when it comes to denigrating America???

Gads, you're a dunce.


3. From this Liberal outlet....PBS

John H. Works, Jr., a Jefferson descendant and a past president of the Monticello Association, wrote a carefully worded explanation of the DNA test that attempted to link President Thomas Jefferson to a child of the slave Sally Hemings.


1. "Since Thomas Jefferson himself had no known legitimate male descendants (his wife Martha bore six children between 1772 and her death in 1782, but only two daughters lived to adulthood), a direct comparison between his and Sally Hemings' offspring could not be made. Dr. Eugene Foster, a retired UVA pathologist, therefore analyzed DNA from other male members of the Jefferson clan and compared them with samples from Sally Heming's male descendants to see if a Jefferson fathered them.


2. Dr. Foster conducted DNA tests on

5 male line descendants of 2 sons of Thomas Jefferson's paternal uncle, Field Jefferson, and

5 male line descendants of 2 sons of Thomas Woodson, including Thomas, Sally Hemings' first child (1790-1879),

1 male line descendant of Eston, Sally Hemings' last child (1808-1852), and

3 male line descendants of 3 sons of John Carr (grandfather of Samuel and Peter Carr, or Jefferson's nephews), long thought by the acknowledged Thomas Jefferson descendants to have been responsible for Sally Heming's children. For good measure, a panel of white descendants of Monticello's neighbors were also tested in case their forefathers might have contributed to Sally Heming's offspring.



3. Dr. Foster found that there was a match between the male descendants of Uncle Field Jefferson and those of Sally Heming's youngest son, Eston Hemings.

However there was no match between the male descendants of Tom Woodson, Sally Hemings' first-born son.

The nephews' heirs also did not match any of the others, and neither did the neighbors' descendants.



4. This DNA study testing the Y chromosome found that there was a link to "some" Jefferson, but not necessarily Thomas, having been the father of Eston, Sally Heming's youngest son. These DNA tests indicated that any one of 8 Jeffersons could have been the father of Eston and there was nothing to indicate it was Thomas.


5. On 5 November 1998 the journal Nature placed an inaccurate and misleading headline based on this study which read, "Jefferson Fathered Slave's Last Child". Most of the mass media and many others assumed the headline to be correct.


6. DNA tests performed on 1 Eston line came up positive, but tests performed originally on 5 Woodson lines in November 1998 came up negative, as did a recent DNA test on a 6th line performed in March 2000. These results should demonstrate beyond any reasonable doubt that Thomas Jefferson was not the father of Tom Woodson. The Woodson DNA tests are important because if Tom Woodson is Sally Heming's Paris-conceived son and could be shown to have Jefferson DNA, it would then be almost certain that Thomas Jefferson was his father, since Thomas was the only Jefferson in Paris at the time who could have impregnated Sally."

Is It True? - A Primer On Jefferson Dna | Jefferson's Blood | FRONTLINE | PBS

 

[PoliticalChic]

Exactly what I said here: ...haters of America attack the Founders as a proxy, and continue to lie no matter how many times they are corrected.

Well, when you give me ACTUAL EVIDENCE, then you can correct. What you've given me is an alternative theory. Not really any proof of anything.

Readers already understand what you are, and why you do what you do. Live with it.

I sometimes wonder if "progressives" (pronounced: regressives) who eagerly come out of their closet to openly celebrate their agenda actually believe no one can see them or have convinced themselves and each other that to deny the obvious is all the defense they need? They remind me of the 1 yr old in a high chair who believes covering her eyes makes her invisible - and therefore not required to eat the squished peas - because she can't see us. The good news is their denials will fall on deaf ears by Nov 2020.

View attachment 265276

How to explain the number of them that have abandoned logic, experience, knowledge, and morality????

Trying to jam large, ideological pegs into small holes requires constant rationalizing as to why they don't fit. Usually they end up blaming capitalism or America or their parents but years of frustration stunts their mental and emotional development and drives 'em all bat-shit crazy. They end up full-grown angry, bitter, petulant children wedded to their ideology and unable to see their way out.

A 12 Step Program for Recovering Liberals

You are far too kind applying a word like ' rationalizing' which involves an intellectual ability and endeavor to folks who treat politics like sports, their team no matter what.

 

[deanrd]

I mean real Liberals, those with integrity and a reputable view of the world, not the mind numbed variety that adhere to the Democrats no matter how insane their current agenda is.




1.Perhaps you’ve noticed that today the strongest Liberals/Democrats are those with the least ability to analyze what they are supporting. As a result, just as Orwell predicted in 1984, they can’t keep straight whether they are at war with Eastasia, or Eurasia. They need not keep track, they simply agree that the enemy at the moment is whoever the leadership says it is.
And today it is the unborn.

Hence, the Liberals were against gay marriage before they were for it. They opposed socialism before they were for it. And they opposed nuclear weapons for Iran before they were in favor of it.
So, no big deal to want to exterminate the defenseless.....

They are clueless to 180° turns by the party. Morons simply march lock-step via the party’s orders.





I came across an interesting real-Liberal essay opposing abortion, and it is instructive to peruse.


2.“Abortion: The Left has betrayed the sanctity of life From The Progressive magazine. Abortion: The Left has betrayed the sanctity of life
Consistency demands concern for the unborn

The abortion issue, more than most, illustrates the occasional tendency of the Left to become so enthusiastic over what is called a "reform" that it forgets to think the issue through. It is ironic that so many on the Left have done on abortion what the conservatives and Cold War liberals did on Vietnam: They marched off in the wrong direction, to fight the wrong war, against the wrong people.

3. Some of us … are now active in the right-to-life movement. We do not enjoy opposing our old friends on the abortion issue, but we feel that we have no choice. We are moved by what pro-life feminists call the "consistency thing" -- the belief that respect for human life demands opposition to abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, and war. We don't think we have either the luxury or the right to choose some types of killing and say that they are all right, while others are not. A human life is a human life; and if equality means anything, it means that society may not value some human lives over others.




4. Until the last decade, people on the Left and Right generally agreed on one rule: We all protected the young. This was not merely agreement on an ethical question: It was also an expression of instinct, so deep and ancient that it scarcely required explanation. Protection of the young included protection of the unborn, for abortion was forbidden by state laws throughout the United States. Those laws reflected an ethical consensus, not based solely on religious tradition but also on scientific evidence that human life begins at conception. The prohibition of abortion in the ancient Hippocratic Oath is well known.

5. …it is important to ask why the Left in the United States generally accepted legalized abortion. One factor was the popular civil libertarian rationale for freedom of choice in abortion. Many feminists presented it as a right of women to control their own bodies. When the objection was raised that abortion ruins another person's body, they respond that a) it is not a body, just a "blob of protoplasm" (thereby displaying ignorance of biology); or b) it is not really a "person" until it is born.

When it was suggested that this is a wholly arbitrary decision, unsupported by any biology evidence, they said, "Well, that's your point of view. This is a matter of individual conscience, and in a pluralistic society people must be free to follow their consciences."




Thinking Liberals, largely an oxymoron today, continue embracing rectitude over party loyalty.

How do Republicans have the nerve to say sanctity of life when they have nothing but contempt for women and babies?

‘It broke me as a physician to do this to her’: How Missouri harasses women seeking abortions

Republicans don’t want to give more than two fingers worth of help to women who are carrying an unwanted fetus.

 

[deanrd]

Rape survivor fighting rapist for custody of child in Alabama

Alabama Banned Abortion for Rape Victims. But Rapists Still Have Parental Rights

In fact, it looks like the rapist has more rights than the woman does.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I mean real Liberals, those with integrity and a reputable view of the world, not the mind numbed variety that adhere to the Democrats no matter how insane their current agenda is.




1.Perhaps you’ve noticed that today the strongest Liberals/Democrats are those with the least ability to analyze what they are supporting. As a result, just as Orwell predicted in 1984, they can’t keep straight whether they are at war with Eastasia, or Eurasia. They need not keep track, they simply agree that the enemy at the moment is whoever the leadership says it is.
And today it is the unborn.

Hence, the Liberals were against gay marriage before they were for it. They opposed socialism before they were for it. And they opposed nuclear weapons for Iran before they were in favor of it.
So, no big deal to want to exterminate the defenseless.....

They are clueless to 180° turns by the party. Morons simply march lock-step via the party’s orders.





I came across an interesting real-Liberal essay opposing abortion, and it is instructive to peruse.


2.“Abortion: The Left has betrayed the sanctity of life From The Progressive magazine. Abortion: The Left has betrayed the sanctity of life
Consistency demands concern for the unborn

The abortion issue, more than most, illustrates the occasional tendency of the Left to become so enthusiastic over what is called a "reform" that it forgets to think the issue through. It is ironic that so many on the Left have done on abortion what the conservatives and Cold War liberals did on Vietnam: They marched off in the wrong direction, to fight the wrong war, against the wrong people.

3. Some of us … are now active in the right-to-life movement. We do not enjoy opposing our old friends on the abortion issue, but we feel that we have no choice. We are moved by what pro-life feminists call the "consistency thing" -- the belief that respect for human life demands opposition to abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, and war. We don't think we have either the luxury or the right to choose some types of killing and say that they are all right, while others are not. A human life is a human life; and if equality means anything, it means that society may not value some human lives over others.




4. Until the last decade, people on the Left and Right generally agreed on one rule: We all protected the young. This was not merely agreement on an ethical question: It was also an expression of instinct, so deep and ancient that it scarcely required explanation. Protection of the young included protection of the unborn, for abortion was forbidden by state laws throughout the United States. Those laws reflected an ethical consensus, not based solely on religious tradition but also on scientific evidence that human life begins at conception. The prohibition of abortion in the ancient Hippocratic Oath is well known.

5. …it is important to ask why the Left in the United States generally accepted legalized abortion. One factor was the popular civil libertarian rationale for freedom of choice in abortion. Many feminists presented it as a right of women to control their own bodies. When the objection was raised that abortion ruins another person's body, they respond that a) it is not a body, just a "blob of protoplasm" (thereby displaying ignorance of biology); or b) it is not really a "person" until it is born.

When it was suggested that this is a wholly arbitrary decision, unsupported by any biology evidence, they said, "Well, that's your point of view. This is a matter of individual conscience, and in a pluralistic society people must be free to follow their consciences."




Thinking Liberals, largely an oxymoron today, continue embracing rectitude over party loyalty.

How do Republicans have the nerve to say sanctity of life when they have nothing but contempt for women and babies?

‘It broke me as a physician to do this to her’: How Missouri harasses women seeking abortions

Republicans don’t want to give more than two fingers worth of help to women who are carrying an unwanted fetus.

While many regularly state how stupid you are, it really isn't necessary for you to prove it.


Protecting human life is hardly the same as being responsible for how one lives it.

See if this helps you understand:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” Thomas Jefferson.

Not exterminating the individual does not obviate the requirement that said individual uses liberty and freedom to attain his own happiness.


Don't post silliness again.

 

[gipper]

Explain wtf you're talking about first.

W hen new York passed abortion up to birth. They celebrated by lighting up the new world trade center in pink. You really don't know what your party represents, do you?

Celebrating mass murder, yet Americans think themselves better than the Nazis.

You mean like the invasion of Iraq?

You mean taking out a dictator that would put people in a meat grinder feet first for entertainment?

The US army killed way more Iraqis than Saddam ever did. Not even close.

Agreed. Now how did this fact have anything to do with this thread topic?

 

[gipper]

That’s too funny. The leaders of the baby killer movement have promoted so many lies on abortion, yet you believed them all. You simply got played over and over. When will you learn?

Which lies are those?

One more time, I don't really care if a fetus is a person or not. I just realize as a practical matter, if a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, she will find a way to not be pregnant.

Don’t play dumb with me boy.

 

[JoeB131]

What a coincidence!!!
As luck would have it, that was the very moment you lost your mind, painting all who believe in such quaint ideas as personal responsibility and less big, greasy, gov't control of our lives as "keeping working people down."

Naw, dude, the minute I realized it was when My Romney loving boss, who wouldn't support Huckabee because Huckabee actually believed some of what the bible says about working folks, decided to fuck over my career because "He didn't have to deal with a union". and that I was "too old".

The fact is, the Libertarians have spent the last decade convincing you that the government that protected you from guys like this was the problem, and not guys like that.

But they sing songs like "Personal Responsibility" to you guys, and of course, we all like to think we are "personally responsible", and those people who are less fortunate are just being irresponsible. There but for the grace of God go I.

BTW, post some of your pro-life arguments and I'll be the judge of how good they are but if your anti-life arguments are an indication, they weren't as brilliant as you recall.

Actually, I wipe the floor with you religious nuts because all your arguments were "It makes the magic man in the sky cry."

 

[Taz]

You mean taking out a dictator that would put people in a meat grinder feet first for entertainment?

The US army killed way more Iraqis than Saddam ever did. Not even close.

Those who died as a result of war died as a result of war.

Those who were murdered for Saddam's sadistic pleasure were murdered.

Apples and oranges, not that anyone should expect any anti-US leftard to see it.

Those who were murdered in a fake war for oil count.

 

[JoeB131]

When you draw comparisons between different cultures, particularly between the Philippine Islands' problems and America's problems. The Philippine Islands did not originate as a Christian entity with Western Values. America did.

This is where you are a little confused. The Philippines are 90% Roman Catholic, they are more devoutly religious than Americans. They were also an American Colony for 50 years and their constitution is largely based off of ours.

I accused any one of criminal conduct? I was unaware of that. Were you there? The answer is, no you were not there. Did you see the conduct of Jefferson and his woman? No, you did not see the conduct of Mr. Jefferson. Did you see the conduct of the woman? No, you did not see the conduct of the woman. Do I believe you? I certainly do not believe you were an expert witness. Yes, I have heard stories about the alleged DNA. Were those samples of DNA authentic? Was I there?

You're sputtering... The point is, hundreds of historians have studied this issue, and have concluded that Jefferson fathered her six children. Even the Monticello society has pointed this out.

If there are unwanted children, that is because there has been a disruption of nature by a corrupt education system in which human beings are encouraged to turn over responsibility for their children to complete strangers who are educated in objectives, not one of which has to do with caring for family members on a lifetime basis. That interruption came when the education of children was changed from the hands of the church and placed in the hands of the undisciplined in matters of human understanding, which is what religion is.

I got 12 years of Catholic Education, and all it left me with was a hatred of religion.

No, this is also nonsense. I knew a girl once... Asian-American, strictly catholic, went to religous schools, and she got two abortions in her early 20s because the guy she was engaged to wouldn't make good on his promises to marry her. What was her reasoning? Her religious parents really thought she was still a virgin at 22.

Now on the horizon is a socialist/communist scenario that will further distance human beings one from the other, and it is why we have graduates of the military showing off their ability to kill many people in silent competition between serial killers and serial rapist/killers.

Wow, slandering the fine young men and women of our armed forces. Why do you hate America?

 

[Taz]

W hen new York passed abortion up to birth. They celebrated by lighting up the new world trade center in pink. You really don't know what your party represents, do you?

Celebrating mass murder, yet Americans think themselves better than the Nazis.

You mean like the invasion of Iraq?

You mean taking out a dictator that would put people in a meat grinder feet first for entertainment?

The US army killed way more Iraqis than Saddam ever did. Not even close.

Agreed. Now how did this fact have anything to do with this thread topic?

What are you? The topic police? We're comparing mass murder. Isn't that what you call abortion?

 

[SAYIT]

What a coincidence!!! As luck would have it, that was the very moment you lost your mind, painting all who believe in such quaint ideas as personal responsibility and less big, greasy, gov't control of our lives as "keeping working people down."

Naw, dude, the minute I realized it was when My Romney loving boss, who wouldn't support Huckabee because Huckabee actually believed some of what the bible says about working folks, decided to fuck over my career because "He didn't have to deal with a union" and that I was "too old"..

Ah … so it's personal with you. Well, should the Democrat Socialist Party have it's way, whatever you have left will quickly be confiscated, Comrade Joe, and the gov't will command the rest of your life.

 

[gipper]

Celebrating mass murder, yet Americans think themselves better than the Nazis.

You mean like the invasion of Iraq?

You mean taking out a dictator that would put people in a meat grinder feet first for entertainment?

The US army killed way more Iraqis than Saddam ever did. Not even close.

Agreed. Now how did this fact have anything to do with this thread topic?

What are you? The topic police? We're comparing mass murder. Isn't that what you call abortion?

Yes abortion is mass murder. And yes W is a war criminal just like BO.

 

[JoeB131]

Ah … so it's personal with you. Well, should the Democrat Socialist Party have it's way, whatever you have left will quickly be confiscated, Comrade Joe, and the gov't will command the rest of your life.

Blah, blah,blah... that doesn't scare me anymore.

If you guys get a guy like Commie Bernie, it's your own damned fault.

 

[SAYIT]

Ah … so it's personal with you. Well, should the Democrat Socialist Party have it's way, whatever you have left will quickly be confiscated, Comrade Joe, and the gov't will command the rest of your life.

Blah, blah,blah... that doesn't scare me anymore. If you guys get a guy like Commie Bernie, it's your own damned fault.

Well, considering none on the clown car have a chance to beat Trump, I'd say bitter leftards will have no one but yourselves to blame but you will blame others and whine incessantly.

 

[jknowgood]

Celebrating mass murder, yet Americans think themselves better than the Nazis.

You mean like the invasion of Iraq?

You mean taking out a dictator that would put people in a meat grinder feet first for entertainment?

The US army killed way more Iraqis than Saddam ever did. Not even close.

Agreed. Now how did this fact have anything to do with this thread topic?

What are you? The topic police? We're comparing mass murder. Isn't that what you call abortion?

There has been millions of babies murdered in abortions. I'd call that mass murder.

 

[SAYIT]

BTW, post some of your pro-life arguments and I'll be the judge of how good they are but if your anti-life arguments are an indication, they weren't as brilliant as you recall.

Actually, I wipe the floor with you religious nuts because all your arguments were "It makes the magic man in the sky cry."

Considering my objection to slaughtering and flushing babies has nothing to do with God or religion, your floor wiping is off to a lame start, however your silly pomposity and self-aggrandizement are once again noted.

 

[gipper]

BTW, post some of your pro-life arguments and I'll be the judge of how good they are but if your anti-life arguments are an indication, they weren't as brilliant as you recall.

Actually, I wipe the floor with you religious nuts because all your arguments were "It makes the magic man in the sky cry."

Considering my objection to slaughtering and flushing babies has nothing to do with God or religion, your floor wiping is off to a lame start, however your silly pomposity and self-aggrandizement are once again noted.

Joe is nothing if not extremely predictable.