Making Gasoline/Diesel More Afforedable

[itfitzme]

Would it be that same "possibility" that drove world crude prices to $10/barrel in 1999?

You're a fucking tool.

Nice example of transferance.

That said, the global oil production and refining market is dominated by ologopolies that enjoy dominant market leverage. *That is to say, that market has more leverage and power than any other market in tbe free market economy. *The oil production and refining market has huge economies of scale and entry costs. *The product itself is as close to a neccessity as can be expected, shot of air, water and food. *It provides huge returns to efficiency in use. *It is in short supply by comparison to other high demand products.

Ahhh... as in 1999 when crude was $10/barrel?

Choke on your own bullshit, asshat.

Choke on what. *It just describes the market. *It doesn't say anything about it being right or wrong, its just a description. *Something about that description you disagree with? *You think there are no economies of scale? *You think its a perfectlu competative market? *You think that the demand is highly elastic? *What exactly?

I'd love to analyze it.

Nor did I say what one can do about it. *I just said I have an idea.

You filled in the blanks with your own shit.

That is transferance.


Here, I'll give you a clue. *I wrote about the fossil fuel market. *That was the picture in my mind.

What object did you write about? *What picture was in your mind? *The oil fossil fuel market? *No. *

 

[Mr. H.]

I give up. Carry on, moron...

 

[itfitzme]

I give up. Carry on, moron...

Ah, don't give up. *Get back on track. *Focus on the object,*

"That said, the global oil production and refining market is dominated by ologopolies that enjoy dominant market leverage. *That is to say, that market has more leverage and power than any other market in tbe free market economy. *The oil production and refining market has huge economies of scale and entry costs. *The product itself is as close to a neccessity as can be expected, shot of air, water and food. *It provides huge returns to efficiency in use. *It is in short supply by comparison to other high demand products."

instead of that distracting image of "who knows who" that has you switch from the market economics to whatever drives using the conjugations of the second person pronoun like

"You" and "You're" as in *"You're a fucking tool."

Come on, you can do it!

Here are the hypothesis;

the global oil production and refining market is*

A) *dominated by ologopolies

B) *that enjoy dominant market leverage.

** *1) that market has more leverage and power than any other market in the free market economy.*

** 2) *The oil production and refining market has huge economies of scale and entry costs.*

** 3) The product itself is as close to a neccessity as can be expected, short of air, water and food.*

** * * * a) *It provides huge returns to efficiency in use.*

** * * * *b) *It is in short supply by comparison to other high demand products.

What is our framework for comparison to qualify and quantify a market? *Do we measure relative to; another market that we take as a standard; the average of all markets; or an idealized reference as in a perfectly competative free market?

Here, I'll start out;

"b) *It is in short supply by comparison to other high demand products."

High demand products include food and water. *
*Housing is a product that may be considered as having high demand.*

Cigarettes and beer are not so much demanded that we would consider them as being generally as highly demanded. *They do seem to have a low price elasticity.

DVDs and baseballs don't strike one as being in such high demand and seem to have good price elasticity.

So how do we quantify the "demand" in such a way that we can confidently rank distilled petrol among all market product? *

It seems to me that just the general necessity of transportation to deliver labor and food is a sufficient consideration to take it as being in the highly demanded category.

Do you feel otherwise? Do you see petrol products as something that people easily do without, choosing *a new couch and foregoing driving to work? *Beer and wine over petrol? *A pepsi and a burritto over that gallon of gas at the 7-11? Some would. *Some might forgo that last two gallons of gas for a pack smokes, but what about the first gallon, the only two gallons they can afford on payday morning?

Seems to me, given the option, most people express greater utility for gas than most everything. *Heck, they may even choose itmover food because they need to drive to get food.

Common, you're smart. *Obviously you think you're smarter than me. *I'm just a "moron" andna "tool". *So analyze it. *What are the measures to put the petrol markets on a scale that compares it to other markets.

You can do it.

Or is "Carry on, moron.." and "You're a fucking tool." you're best example of objective thinking?*

Hmm.. *Maybe you're on to something, maybe that is not being a "moron" and focusing on objective measures of petrol utility and price elasticity is moronic.

Nah...sounds to me more like someone needs their huggies changed.

 

[KissMy]

All of your ethanol talking points come from a few manipulated oil industry funded studies. You idiots repeat them like they are fact.

Corn Ethanol creates more food than Corn alone does. For that reason alone it is a winner. Corn is fed to livestock. Livestock evolved as foragers, not raw corn eaters. Animals eating corn emit methane gas & pass most of the nourishment of the corn out into manure that emits methane & pollutes water. Methane is 15 times worse on the environment as CO2. Ethanol plants grind, cook & use enzymes to breakdown corn into energy & protein. Ethanol plants turn all the starch in corn that animals emit into the atmosphere as methane, into Ethanol before feeding it. The Corn Ethanol Plant by-product is DDG livestock feed that grows animals 33% faster than corn or grass does. The fact is if you are in livestock production, you can not be competitive unless you are feeding Ethanol DDG Feed! Also ethanol plants run on waste heat from power plants & steel mills. They do not consume raw energy to generate Ethanol. The real EROEI for Corn Ethanol is 3 to 1.

Steel refineries waste heat create steam that spins a turbine that generates electricity that powers the grid & ethanol plant. The exhaust from the steam turbine heats the mash at the ethanol plant. The waste heat from the ethanol plant heats greenhouses that grow food. The ethanol mash is only heated for fermentation & no longer heated to a boil to distill it. Ethanol is evacuated from the mash.

The Broin plant I was involved with years ago before it became Poet Ethanol was built next to a Natural Gas Turbine Power plant. The waste heat from the Power plants NG Turbine went to a boiler & made steam to power a steam turbine that generated power for the grid & power plant. The heat from boiler vent stack & exhausted steam from turbine heated the mash for fermentation & ethanol was evacuated from the mash. Heat from the mash heated buildings.

Here are some more facts:

The useful life of engines is significantly reduced by ethanol.

The total cost of producing ethonal is greater than the benefit to consumers

Brazilian ethanol can be produced, shipped to and sold in any US port on the south or Atlantic coast cheaper than American made ethanol can be manufactured and shipped to east and south coast ports.

Did I mention that EVERY. SINGLE. WORD. of my original post is accurate including noting which bobbleheaded scum did the most for corporate welfare for ADM and now dozens more corporate parasites.

You have a point at the US put a tax on Brazil sugar cane ethanol see one of my post links...and thanks to kiss my...poster....lol I so forgot about corn used in cattle feed.

Don't believe his lies. Brazil imposed a huge tariff on U.S. ethanol imports into Brazil, so we imposed a counter ethanol tariff on their ethanol coming here. In 2010 Brazil dropped its ethanol import tariffs, so in 2011 the U.S. Congress dropped our ethanol import tariffs.

Don't be fooled by Big Oil rhetoric. The U.S. Corn Ethanol industry produces more ethanol & does it cheaper than Brazil does with sugar & all other sources combined. We are the worlds largest ethanol exporter & Brazil has been our largest ethanol customer. The only time we import is after huge drought events like we had here last year.

 

[JoeBlam]

Don't be fooled by Big Oil rhetoric. The U.S. Corn Ethanol industry produces more ethanol & does it cheaper than Brazil does with sugar & all other sources combined. We are the worlds largest ethanol exporter & Brazil has been our largest ethanol customer. The only time we import is after huge drought events like we had here last year.

Been in a grocery store lately? You are either involved in ethanol subsidies or don't know your ass from up. Food prices are at an all-time high because of trying to make fuel out of foodstuff. It looked good on paper but like everything else the leftists come up with, the unintended consequences dwarf any imaginary good. Feed the corn to the cattle and pigs, corn starch/syrup for humans, and drill for the SEA of oil under US soil. Any other path is lunacy.

 

[KissMy]

Don't be fooled by Big Oil rhetoric. The U.S. Corn Ethanol industry produces more ethanol & does it cheaper than Brazil does with sugar & all other sources combined. We are the worlds largest ethanol exporter & Brazil has been our largest ethanol customer. The only time we import is after huge drought events like we had here last year.

Been in a grocery store lately? You are either involved in ethanol subsidies or don't know your ass from up. Food prices are at an all-time high because of trying to make fuel out of foodstuff. It looked good on paper but like everything else the leftists come up with, the unintended consequences dwarf any imaginary good. Feed the corn to the cattle and pigs, corn starch/syrup for humans, and drill for the SEA of oil under US soil. Any other path is lunacy.

Corn Ethanol Produces DDG feed that is 66% better feed than the corn that made it was. Livestock grow 33% faster on 25% less DDG feed than they do on corn. Ethanol production produces more food. Big Oil Brainwashed Idiots believe the opposit.

Corn Ethanol is not reducing corn for food.

 

[JoeBlam]

Don't be fooled by Big Oil rhetoric. The U.S. Corn Ethanol industry produces more ethanol & does it cheaper than Brazil does with sugar & all other sources combined. We are the worlds largest ethanol exporter & Brazil has been our largest ethanol customer. The only time we import is after huge drought events like we had here last year.

Been in a grocery store lately? You are either involved in ethanol subsidies or don't know your ass from up. Food prices are at an all-time high because of trying to make fuel out of foodstuff. It looked good on paper but like everything else the leftists come up with, the unintended consequences dwarf any imaginary good. Feed the corn to the cattle and pigs, corn starch/syrup for humans, and drill for the SEA of oil under US soil. Any other path is lunacy.

Corn Ethanol Produces DDG feed that is 66% better feed than the corn that made it was. Livestock grow 33% faster on 25% less DDG feed than they do on corn. Ethanol production produces more food. Big Oil Brainwashed Idiots believe the opposit.

Corn Ethanol is not reducing corn for food.

Why are you lobbying me? I told you what ethanol has resulted in.....high food prices and burnt valves in piston engines....all the fake graphs and charts your group produces doesn't change that fact.

 

[itfitzme]

In 152 posts, I still don't see any explanation as to exactly what is the purpose of making gasoline/diesel more affordable. Or why even posit such nonsense?

Oh snap.

What's your problem? You're not the idiot that started this thread.

You have some serious personal issues there.

 

[PaulS1950]

Corn used for Ethanol is not the same corn we eat for dinner. It is a feed grade corn and the by-products of Ethanol are a higher protein feed than the corn itself along with some of the best fertilizer on the planet.

What makes the food prices go up is the same thing that makes the rest of our products increase in price - real inflation. (the value of the dollar as it relates to gold or the other legal tenders in the world.)

 

[itfitzme]

Corn used for Ethanol is not the same corn we eat for dinner. It is a feed grade corn and the by-products of Ethanol are a higher protein feed than the corn itself along with some of the best fertilizer on the planet.

What makes the food prices go up is the same thing that makes the rest of our products increase in price - real inflation. (the value of the dollar as it relates to gold or the other legal tenders in the world.)

I've been looking at the various CPIs for food and beverages, milk and dairy, cerials and bakery, alchohol, etc.

It's hard to make a case for a clear correlation between the data graphs posted and any inflation of food prices.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Would you suggest such a thing for all commodity futures trading?

Good question.....so I'll turn it around ask you.....should we allow middle-men to drive up the price of essential commodities by speculating in a market they've rigged and cannot lose in?

Rigged? Cannot lose? LOL!
You realize speculators are on both the long and short side?
How do speculators who never take delivery cause the price to rise?
Spell it out, if you can.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Corn used for Ethanol is not the same corn we eat for dinner. It is a feed grade corn and the by-products of Ethanol are a higher protein feed than the corn itself along with some of the best fertilizer on the planet.

What makes the food prices go up is the same thing that makes the rest of our products increase in price - real inflation. (the value of the dollar as it relates to gold or the other legal tenders in the world.)

Corn used for Ethanol is not the same corn we eat for dinner.

But it is planted in place of foods we eat for dinner.

 

[itfitzme]

Corn used for Ethanol is not the same corn we eat for dinner. It is a feed grade corn and the by-products of Ethanol are a higher protein feed than the corn itself along with some of the best fertilizer on the planet.

What makes the food prices go up is the same thing that makes the rest of our products increase in price - real inflation. (the value of the dollar as it relates to gold or the other legal tenders in the world.)

Corn used for Ethanol is not the same corn we eat for dinner.

But it is planted in place of foods we eat for dinner.

Do you mean to say that we've used up all the land?

That's an issue. How are we going to support a growing population now?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Corn used for Ethanol is not the same corn we eat for dinner. It is a feed grade corn and the by-products of Ethanol are a higher protein feed than the corn itself along with some of the best fertilizer on the planet.

What makes the food prices go up is the same thing that makes the rest of our products increase in price - real inflation. (the value of the dollar as it relates to gold or the other legal tenders in the world.)

Corn used for Ethanol is not the same corn we eat for dinner.

But it is planted in place of foods we eat for dinner.

Do you mean to say that we've used up all the land?

That's an issue. How are we going to support a growing population now?

Do you mean to say that we've used up all the land?

No.

How are we going to support a growing population now?

Stop burning our food.
Stop importing millions of illegals.
Drill baby drill!

 

[Mr. H.]

Oh snap.

What's your problem? You're not the idiot that started this thread.

You have some serious personal issues there.

Not once in this thread have you addressed the OP.
Who's the one with issues here?

In fact, no one has addressed this "need" to make gasoline/diesel "more affordable".

 

[Pogo]

Drill baby drill!

I see they mythmakers are still swimming in their ignorance of how the oil bidness works ... smh

Number one, oil companies drill, not the gummint, not we the people. You can't force them to drill unless you nationalize the oil companies.
Number two, oil companies are for-profit corporations; their loyalties and goals are based on their shareholders, not the citizens of whatever country they're based in. They're not going to undermine their own profits.
Number three, even if they do start additional drilling (which is kinda magical since the surplus equipment to do so doesn't exist), that oil has nowhere to go, as refineries are already running at capacity;
Number four, even if you get past one through three and find a refinery, that oil then goes on the international market, not to the pump in Dubuque.
Number five, even if you get past one through four and pump up that international supply (which takes about 22 years according to the EIA), the net effect on the world price is literally pocket change;
And number six, when that barrel price drops by thirty-two cents, OPEC, if it notices at all, simply cuts their own production back to compensate, and we're back where we were.

Happy motoring.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Drill baby drill!

I see they mythmakers are still swimming in their ignorance of how the oil bidness works ... smh

Number one, oil companies drill, not the gummint, not we the people. You can't force them to drill unless you nationalize the oil companies.
Number two, oil companies are for-profit corporations; their loyalties and goals are based on their shareholders, not the citizens of whatever country they're based in. They're not going to undermine their own profits.
Number three, even if they do start additional drilling (which is kinda magical since the surplus equipment to do so doesn't exist), that oil has nowhere to go, as refineries are already running at capacity;
Number four, even if you get past one through three and find a refinery, that oil then goes on the international market, not to the pump in Dubuque.
Number five, even if you get past one through four and pump up that international supply (which takes about 22 years according to the EIA), the net effect on the world price is literally pocket change;
And number six, when that barrel price drops by thirty-two cents, OPEC, if it notices at all, simply cuts their own production back to compensate, and we're back where we were.

Happy motoring.

You can't force them to drill unless you nationalize the oil companies.

No, but you can try stop them from drilling. Or make it easier for them to drill. One guess where Obama is leaning.

They're not going to undermine their own profits.

Right, oil companies don't want to drill, they want to make money instead. LOL!
What is that, liberal economics?

Number three, even if they do start additional drilling (which is kinda magical since the surplus equipment to do so doesn't exist),

Right, there is no possible way to build more equipment.

that oil has nowhere to go, as refineries are already running at capacity;

I guess building more refining capacity is out of the question?

Number four, even if you get past one through three and find a refinery, that oil then goes on the international market, not to the pump in Dubuque.

Right, and why is lowering the world price of oil a bad thing? And adding more gasoline doesn't drop the price?

Number five, even if you get past one through four and pump up that international supply (which takes about 22 years according to the EIA),

Selling oil on the world market takes 22 years? LOL!
If you have a source for whatever silly point you imagine you're making here, please post it.

And number six, when that barrel price drops by thirty-two cents, OPEC, if it notices at all, simply cuts their own production back to compensate, and we're back where we were.

Back to where we were? But we now have more US production and fewer imports.
Why is that bad again?

 

[itfitzme]

What's your problem? You're not the idiot that started this thread.

You have some serious personal issues there.

Not once in this thread have you addressed the OP.*
Who's the one with issues here?

In fact, no one has addressed this "need" to make gasoline/diesel "more affordable".

oh snap - Also simply "snap"; an exclamation of dismay or disbelief, surprise, or joy.

OH SNAP has more of an emphasis on playfulness and can be said by people other than those being insulted.

I think I've understood it to mean:

"Ooooh, what an appropriate joke. You are very clever."

Person A: Your mama's so fat, whenever someone says "Kool-Aid" she comes crashing through the wall!

Person B, whose mama IS fat: Oh, snap!

I'll try not to use slang that you are unfamiliar with.

I considered saying, "Awesome. *Now that's taking a number of steps back and seeing the bigger picture." *

I'll make a note of your "must address the OP" rule.

 

[Pogo]

Drill baby drill!

I see they mythmakers are still swimming in their ignorance of how the oil bidness works ... smh

Number one, oil companies drill, not the gummint, not we the people. You can't force them to drill unless you nationalize the oil companies.
Number two, oil companies are for-profit corporations; their loyalties and goals are based on their shareholders, not the citizens of whatever country they're based in. They're not going to undermine their own profits.
Number three, even if they do start additional drilling (which is kinda magical since the surplus equipment to do so doesn't exist), that oil has nowhere to go, as refineries are already running at capacity;
Number four, even if you get past one through three and find a refinery, that oil then goes on the international market, not to the pump in Dubuque.
Number five, even if you get past one through four and pump up that international supply (which takes about 22 years according to the EIA), the net effect on the world price is literally pocket change;
And number six, when that barrel price drops by thirty-two cents, OPEC, if it notices at all, simply cuts their own production back to compensate, and we're back where we were.

Happy motoring.

You can't force them to drill unless you nationalize the oil companies.

No, but you can try stop them from drilling. Or make it easier for them to drill. One guess where Obama is leaning.

They're not going to undermine their own profits.

Right, oil companies don't want to drill, they want to make money instead. LOL!
What is that, liberal economics?

Number three, even if they do start additional drilling (which is kinda magical since the surplus equipment to do so doesn't exist),

Right, there is no possible way to build more equipment.

that oil has nowhere to go, as refineries are already running at capacity;

I guess building more refining capacity is out of the question?

Number four, even if you get past one through three and find a refinery, that oil then goes on the international market, not to the pump in Dubuque.

Right, and why is lowering the world price of oil a bad thing? And adding more gasoline doesn't drop the price?

Number five, even if you get past one through four and pump up that international supply (which takes about 22 years according to the EIA),

Selling oil on the world market takes 22 years? LOL!
If you have a source for whatever silly point you imagine you're making here, please post it.

And number six, when that barrel price drops by thirty-two cents, OPEC, if it notices at all, simply cuts their own production back to compensate, and we're back where we were.

Back to where we were? But we now have more US production and fewer imports.
Why is that bad again?

Wow. Worst case of rationalization infection I've seen all day. Put your masks on folks. And cover me-- I'm going in.

Maybe you didn't notice, Sparky, where the end product goes on the international market? You do know what international means, doncha?

No, but you can try stop them from drilling. Or make it easier for them to drill. One guess where Obama is leaning.

I don't know that there is any "lean" but I do know that back in '08 when we picked this fake mantra apart, the oil companies were already sitting on 68 million acres of leased drilling land that wasn't being drilled --- the point being, it's not like they're out of territory to exploit. Today's number is prolly not much changed.

Right, there is no possible way to build more equipment. I guess building more refining capacity is out of the question?

Once again, talk to the oil companies, which are private profit making enterprises. If they wanted more facilities or found them profitable, they would build them. To the contrary, they've been closing refineries. Wanna nationalize them so you can tell them what to do?

Right, and why is lowering the world price of oil a bad thing? And adding more gasoline doesn't drop the price?

Way to read through to the end. Again, search the word "OPEC" for the relevant part -- if it's relevant at all, since the differential in the resulting market price would be, as the EIA put it, "insignificant". And if it is significant, see the OPEC part.

Selling oil on the world market takes 22 years? LOL!
If you have a source for whatever silly point you imagine you're making here, please post it.

:: sigh :: done before but here again, just because you said "please"...

Silly source 1
Silly source 2

Anything else?

 

[itfitzme]

Drill baby drill!

I see they mythmakers are still swimming in their ignorance of how the oil bidness works ... smh

Number one, oil companies drill, not the gummint, not we the people. *You can't force them to drill unless you nationalize the oil companies.
Number two, oil companies are for-profit corporations; their loyalties and goals are based on their shareholders, not the citizens of whatever country they're based in. *They're not going to undermine their own profits.
Number three, even if they do start additional drilling (which is kinda magical since the surplus equipment to do so doesn't exist), that oil has nowhere to go, as refineries are already running at capacity;
Number four, even if you get past one through three and find a refinery, that oil then goes on the international market, not to the pump in Dubuque. *
Number five, even if you get past one through four and pump up that international supply (which takes about 22 years according to the EIA), the net effect on the world price is literally pocket change;
And number six, when that barrel price drops by thirty-two cents, OPEC, if it notices at all, simply cuts their own production back to compensate, and we're back where we were.

Happy motoring.

Maybe you should explain the details of production increase as it progresses from geological survey to the gas tank. *Some folk can add 1 +1=2 but their short term memory isn't capable of 2.5+8.3+1.6+3.9=16.3 *They may know how to add, just not what to add. *When your short term memory is capable of only three items, a supply chain is just too long.*And solving simultaneous equations is beyond them.*