Man Without Religion

[AtheistBuddah]

Have you ever wondered what the world would be like if Mankind abandoned religion? Then I simply point you to one of the most shining chapters in our history as a species. Ancient Greece. It is difficult if not impossible to say exactly when the Greeks abandoned their gods because they did not simply wake up one day and declare their disbelief. Rather it happened gradually, turning their formalized religion into a vaguely observed superstition like how most of us today think of karma or ghosts. Little by little they began to stop believing in their religion and the result was the birth of democracy and the ideals of individual liberty and equality. The birth of Psychics and the pursuit of a greater understanding of our universe and how things behave in it. Science and Democracy. That is what atheism has given Mankind. I need not enumerate the many benefits we have enjoyed from both. One has doubled our lifespan in the past 50 or so years alone and the other has given us the right to enjoy that longevity however we see fit. Now to those that would have our nation embrace religion even more than it has already I point you to several examples of theocracy. The Crusades were made possible by the many theocracies of Europe obeying the Pope and the greatest theocracy of all, the Catholic Church, without question. Theocracy gave us the numerous inquisitions across European history in which people were tortured for practicing their faith in ways not in line with Catholic norms. As for the medical benefits we reaped from faith and religion I give you Trepanning. A treatment for many illnesses which were misdiagnosed as demonic possession in which a primitive drill was used to bore a hole into the skull to let the demons out. Need I say more. Objectively the good science and secularism has done us far outweighs that done by religion and the horrible negatives suffered as a result of religion far outweighs any good it does.

 

[PratchettFan]

Have you ever wondered what the world would be like if bees had developed the conveyor belt? We would all have free honey.

First off, the greeks did not give up their gods. Their religion simply morphed to fit their social setting. Nor did the greeks all develop democracy. A very few engaged for a time in a type of democracy which included only a small fraction of the actual population. All the people could vote, but only propertied men were people.

Finally, if you are going to approach this from a rational point of view, then you have to ask yourself why we have religion. Try to get past your personal belief system, which I can see is quite rigid, and look at our species as you would any other. Religion is an intregal part of every human society in recorded history. That is a universal statement. There are no exceptions short of small, isolated tribal groups and that is debatable. So please name me any other species which has a universal behavior that has evolved with them and point out how that behavior is negative to that species. That is not how evolution works and unless you are of the opinion that homo sapien is somehow special and not subject to the same evolutionary process as every other species on the planet, then perhaps you need to rethink your assumptions.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Have you ever wondered what the world would be like if Mankind abandoned religion? Then I simply point you to one of the most shining chapters in our history as a species. Ancient Greece. It is difficult if not impossible to say exactly when the Greeks abandoned their gods because they did not simply wake up one day and declare their disbelief. Rather it happened gradually, turning their formalized religion into a vaguely observed superstition like how most of us today think of karma or ghosts. Little by little they began to stop believing in their religion and the result was the birth of democracy and the ideals of individual liberty and equality. The birth of Psychics and the pursuit of a greater understanding of our universe and how things behave in it. Science and Democracy. That is what atheism has given Mankind. I need not enumerate the many benefits we have enjoyed from both. One has doubled our lifespan in the past 50 or so years alone and the other has given us the right to enjoy that longevity however we see fit. Now to those that would have our nation embrace religion even more than it has already I point you to several examples of theocracy. The Crusades were made possible by the many theocracies of Europe obeying the Pope and the greatest theocracy of all, the Catholic Church, without question. Theocracy gave us the numerous inquisitions across European history in which people were tortured for practicing their faith in ways not in line with Catholic norms. As for the medical benefits we reaped from faith and religion I give you Trepanning. A treatment for many illnesses which were misdiagnosed as demonic possession in which a primitive drill was used to bore a hole into the skull to let the demons out. Need I say more. Objectively the good science and secularism has done us far outweighs that done by religion and the horrible negatives suffered as a result of religion far outweighs any good it does.

Probably helped when thinkers realize most every male god in their pantheon was a rapist. Medusa (the snake haired monster in every movie featuring Perseus) got that way after (according to their mythology) Poseidon raped her. Being a priestess of some other goddess which required her to be virginal the goddess cursed her for her getting raped. In effect, much as today, blaming the victim closing ranks around the other gods and throwing the mortal under the bus. When your gods are criminals it doesn't long before you give them the finger and move on.

 

[alang1216]

Finally, if you are going to approach this from a rational point of view, then you have to ask yourself why we have religion.

An excellent question. I have neither religion nor faith but I feel there must be positives about religion that outweigh the negatives. Here’s my $0.02.
Religion started as a way to control nature. Man wanted to cure an illness but he had no idea of the cause. Through trial and error some plants or techniques were found to be effective. Their use was passed down through generations as rituals. As the rituals increased in number and complexity it became an important but challenging job, going to the best and brightest, or at least the best connected. I think that tradition continued right thru the Middle Ages where it was the priests who were literate. In ancient cultures where opportunities for learning were limited, these educated men performed a valuable service and religions developed. The early polytheistic religions were inclusive, you could worship many gods, so they served to unite people and foster cultural interactions. It was not until Christianity and later Islam that religions became exclusive. They now show signs of being discarded so maybe the days of religion have passed.

 

[PratchettFan]

Finally, if you are going to approach this from a rational point of view, then you have to ask yourself why we have religion.

An excellent question. I have neither religion nor faith but I feel there must be positives about religion that outweigh the negatives. Here’s my $0.02.
Religion started as a way to control nature. Man wanted to cure an illness but he had no idea of the cause. Through trial and error some plants or techniques were found to be effective. Their use was passed down through generations as rituals. As the rituals increased in number and complexity it became an important but challenging job, going to the best and brightest, or at least the best connected. I think that tradition continued right thru the Middle Ages where it was the priests who were literate. In ancient cultures where opportunities for learning were limited, these educated men performed a valuable service and religions developed. The early polytheistic religions were inclusive, you could worship many gods, so they served to unite people and foster cultural interactions. It was not until Christianity and later Islam that religions became exclusive. They now show signs of being discarded so maybe the days of religion have passed.

My take is that religion provides cohesion to the society. It is the other half of government. Government provides the rules for the society while religion provides continuity and justification. It really doesn't matter if any given individual takes part in the religion, any more than it matters if one individual makes it to age 90 or dies at 5. What matters is the continuation of the species.

I think it is a mistake to focus on the workings of the religion itself, but rather focus on how humans interact within that structure. I think you will find it doesn't make any difference whether you are talking about the old Norse religions or the Southern Baptists. It all works pretty much the same. It's like a car. It boils down to a motor, wheels and a method to transfer power to the wheels. The rest is just window dressing.

 

[Avatar4321]

There is a reason the word cult is the root of the word culture. I am talking about the actual definition of cult, not the "Evil group" definition everyone seems to use.

Pure religion is to take care of the widows and the fatherless and to keep ourselves unspotted from the world.

Atheist, you might want to brush up on history. you've got alot of things just blatantly wrong.

 

[alang1216]

The only human activity as old as religion might be warfare. Warfare might be the “natural selection” process of human societal evolution. The competition between groups accelerated the development of technology morality of those that survived. Pagan religions didn’t tend to isolate groups but Christianity and Islam do. You can’t fight unless you have someone to fight that’s not you. Maybe todays religions enable the competitive process to continue?

 

[PratchettFan]

The only human activity as old as religion might be warfare. Warfare might be the “natural selection” process of human societal evolution. The competition between groups accelerated the development of technology morality of those that survived. Pagan religions didn’t tend to isolate groups but Christianity and Islam do. You can’t fight unless you have someone to fight that’s not you. Maybe todays religions enable the competitive process to continue?

I'm certain it does. I am certain it has always enabled it. Just as government has always enabled it. Technology has always enabled it. The only predator homo sapien has is homo sapien. Saying religion aids in warfare is much like saying pack behavior in lions aids in the killing of gazelles.

As to fighting, religion is only one of any number of excuses we use. The key is to understand that an excuse is not a cause. The cause is that it is homo sapien's nature to resort to violence as the reaction of choice to anything it deems as outside of its immediate group. The expansion of modern religion and modern government has, in fact, reduced that level of violence by making immediate violence unacceptable in most situations. It is when you have a breakdown of government and religion (such as what you currently see in Iraq) that our true nature becomes apparent.

 

[Disir]

Have you ever wondered what the world would be like if Mankind abandoned religion? Then I simply point you to one of the most shining chapters in our history as a species. Ancient Greece. It is difficult if not impossible to say exactly when the Greeks abandoned their gods because they did not simply wake up one day and declare their disbelief. Rather it happened gradually, turning their formalized religion into a vaguely observed superstition like how most of us today think of karma or ghosts. Little by little they began to stop believing in their religion and the result was the birth of democracy and the ideals of individual liberty and equality. The birth of Psychics and the pursuit of a greater understanding of our universe and how things behave in it. Science and Democracy. That is what atheism has given Mankind. I need not enumerate the many benefits we have enjoyed from both. One has doubled our lifespan in the past 50 or so years alone and the other has given us the right to enjoy that longevity however we see fit. Now to those that would have our nation embrace religion even more than it has already I point you to several examples of theocracy. The Crusades were made possible by the many theocracies of Europe obeying the Pope and the greatest theocracy of all, the Catholic Church, without question. Theocracy gave us the numerous inquisitions across European history in which people were tortured for practicing their faith in ways not in line with Catholic norms. As for the medical benefits we reaped from faith and religion I give you Trepanning. A treatment for many illnesses which were misdiagnosed as demonic possession in which a primitive drill was used to bore a hole into the skull to let the demons out. Need I say more. Objectively the good science and secularism has done us far outweighs that done by religion and the horrible negatives suffered as a result of religion far outweighs any good it does.

What is Athens, a city state, in 5th century BCE? Democracy as in winner take all politics and very, very, very short lived. There is no reason to believe that religion was abandoned or took a back seat. Further, it established an oligarchy.

 

[The Irish Ram]

And no reason to believe that man birthed physics once religion was removed. God created the Laws of the universe. Newton didn't invent gravity, he understood it. Einstein didn't invent time, he incorporated it into what he already knew. God created dimensions, and described them perfectly. We are verifying them. Did we invent neutrinos? Did we birth DNA? Nachmanides' understanding of Physics came straight from the Torah. As did Miamonides', the great physician, astronomer and scholar.

As opposed to Archimedes and the other Greek thinkers that believed in the gods of Olympus.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

Have you ever wondered what the world would be like if bees had developed the conveyor belt? We would all have free honey.

First off, the greeks did not give up their gods. Their religion simply morphed to fit their social setting.

Finally, if you are going to approach this from a rational point of view, then you have to ask yourself why we have religion.

First: That's exactly what I said. I'm aware that they didn't just all decide to drop their religion one day. I said it slowly receded away until it was more of a vague superstition than an actual religious view that dictated their thoughts and actions.

Second: We have religion because we are born with an ingrained need to feel special and a need to have all the answers. The unknown scares us unless that unknown is Jehovah and Jehovah always has your back. We have a tendency to want to relinquish responsibility into the hands of others, it's what allows governments to form, it's what allows religion to form. We don't want to worry about the all the things in the universe that could do us harm so we let God sort all that stuff out. We don't want to worry about the intricacies of running and maintaining society so we let a few elected officials sort it out. Now there is a flipside to that and it is the few people that aren't afraid to take charge and worry about running things. They like power and they like responsibility and they propagate religion to remain on top and the masses allow it because it frees them up from the responsibilities and worries that come with sentient life

 

[AtheistBuddah]

It is when you have a breakdown of government and religion (such as what you currently see in Iraq) that our true nature becomes apparent.

Religion when it works exactly as it is supposed to causes violence and persecution. Throughout European history Catholics tortured and murdered Protestants in droves especially in France and England. The Protestants did the same when they had the chance during King Henry VIII's reign. And during the Spanish Inquisition many were tortured and killed as well for being of a different faith or culture. That is not war, it is not progression of a society through conflict it is just evil. When the Jews arrived in the promised land it was already inhabited and the Jews massacred those natives. Then they said that it was God's will and vilified those people. Religion, at least in the case of Western religion is extremely violent and murderous at its very core. Eastern religion has sparked violence but it is normally localized because their is not the same marriage of church and state in the East. The Daimyo of Japan observed the religion of their people but when the monks took to killing each other over it they did not join in.

 

[Warrior102]

Warrior 102 Religion 101 - for the imbeciles: How many "religions" are there? Hundreds of thousands? Jesus Christ created Christianity - i.e Catholicism - had Peter take the helm. Peter and Paul took it out of Jerusalem into Rome. Wa-lah: Roman Catholics. Things went along great until the protestants came along and fucked things up (reformation). Then came along all these snake worshipping, televangilist heathens, healing, gimme-your money, scumbag Muslims, Islams, Koolks, Bible Thumpers, etc. Then of course we have those damned agnostics. There's only one religion. The one founded by Christ. The rest of the discussion is man-made bullshit.

Next?

 

[sealybobo]

Have you ever wondered what the world would be like if Mankind abandoned religion? Then I simply point you to one of the most shining chapters in our history as a species. Ancient Greece. It is difficult if not impossible to say exactly when the Greeks abandoned their gods because they did not simply wake up one day and declare their disbelief. Rather it happened gradually, turning their formalized religion into a vaguely observed superstition like how most of us today think of karma or ghosts. Little by little they began to stop believing in their religion and the result was the birth of democracy and the ideals of individual liberty and equality. The birth of Psychics and the pursuit of a greater understanding of our universe and how things behave in it. Science and Democracy. That is what atheism has given Mankind. I need not enumerate the many benefits we have enjoyed from both. One has doubled our lifespan in the past 50 or so years alone and the other has given us the right to enjoy that longevity however we see fit. Now to those that would have our nation embrace religion even more than it has already I point you to several examples of theocracy. The Crusades were made possible by the many theocracies of Europe obeying the Pope and the greatest theocracy of all, the Catholic Church, without question. Theocracy gave us the numerous inquisitions across European history in which people were tortured for practicing their faith in ways not in line with Catholic norms. As for the medical benefits we reaped from faith and religion I give you Trepanning. A treatment for many illnesses which were misdiagnosed as demonic possession in which a primitive drill was used to bore a hole into the skull to let the demons out. Need I say more. Objectively the good science and secularism has done us far outweighs that done by religion and the horrible negatives suffered as a result of religion far outweighs any good it does.

I completely agree. The religious nuts say us abandoning god is why our society sucks but I say our society sucks because we are a stupid brainwashed bunch of citizens. God is one of the things the rich use to divide us. I could go on and on but the point is, I am an atheist and I don't rape, murder, steal, etc.

 

[westwall]

It is when you have a breakdown of government and religion (such as what you currently see in Iraq) that our true nature becomes apparent.

Religion when it works exactly as it is supposed to causes violence and persecution. Throughout European history Catholics tortured and murdered Protestants in droves especially in France and England. The Protestants did the same when they had the chance during King Henry VIII's reign. And during the Spanish Inquisition many were tortured and killed as well for being of a different faith or culture. That is not war, it is not progression of a society through conflict it is just evil. When the Jews arrived in the promised land it was already inhabited and the Jews massacred those natives. Then they said that it was God's will and vilified those people. Religion, at least in the case of Western religion is extremely violent and murderous at its very core. Eastern religion has sparked violence but it is normally localized because their is not the same marriage of church and state in the East. The Daimyo of Japan observed the religion of their people but when the monks took to killing each other over it they did not join in.

An old, old argument. Modern atheist progressives have murdered more people in the last 100 years than all the religions of the world combined were able to murder in 2,000 years.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

Warrior 102 Religion 101 - for the imbeciles: How many "religions" are there? Hundreds of thousands? Jesus Christ created Christianity - i.e Catholicism - had Peter take the helm. Peter and Paul took it out of Jerusalem into Rome. Wa-lah: Roman Catholics. Things went along great until the protestants came along and fucked things up (reformation). Then came along all these snake worshipping, televangilist heathens, healing, gimme-your money, scumbag Muslims, Islams, Koolks, Bible Thumpers, etc. Then of course we have those damned agnostics. There's only one religion. The one founded by Christ. The rest of the discussion is man-made bullshit.

Next?

First off, I can't stand it when Christians use the "No True Scotsman Fallacy" Just because they aren't your idea of "True Christians" doesn't mean they aren't representative of your faith and the effect it has on society. You can't just ignore all the bad sections of your religion by saying "Well they're not 'real' Christians, that's not what Christianity is about" Which just isn't realistic. Secondly all of it is man-man, your faith included and you have no evidence to prove otherwise. You cannot say that all these religious groups are a problem but then say that yours is not a problem because that logic just doesn't hold up under any real level of scrutiny.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

Religion when it works exactly as it is supposed to causes violence and persecution. Throughout European history Catholics tortured and murdered Protestants in droves especially in France and England. The Protestants did the same when they had the chance during King Henry VIII's reign. And during the Spanish Inquisition many were tortured and killed as well for being of a different faith or culture. That is not war, it is not progression of a society through conflict it is just evil. When the Jews arrived in the promised land it was already inhabited and the Jews massacred those natives. Then they said that it was God's will and vilified those people. Religion, at least in the case of Western religion is extremely violent and murderous at its very core. Eastern religion has sparked violence but it is normally localized because their is not the same marriage of church and state in the East. The Daimyo of Japan observed the religion of their people but when the monks took to killing each other over it they did not join in.

An old, old argument. Modern atheist progressives have murdered more people in the last 100 years than all the religions of the world combined were able to murder in 2,000 years.

That's one hell of a claim and if you aren't prepared to back it up with evidence then I suggest you give up debating because you're doing it wrong.

 

[Avatar4321]

An old, old argument. Modern atheist progressives have murdered more people in the last 100 years than all the religions of the world combined were able to murder in 2,000 years.

That's one hell of a claim and if you aren't prepared to back it up with evidence then I suggest you give up debating because you're doing it wrong.

Considering Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, and Stalin killed more people than lived on the earth for much of human history, it's not exactly a difficult claim to back up. Even if you disqualify Hitler for his study of the occult.

 

[AtheistBuddah]

An old, old argument. Modern atheist progressives have murdered more people in the last 100 years than all the religions of the world combined were able to murder in 2,000 years.

That's one hell of a claim and if you aren't prepared to back it up with evidence then I suggest you give up debating because you're doing it wrong.

Considering Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, and Stalin killed more people than lived on the earth for much of human history, it's not exactly a difficult claim to back up. Even if you disqualify Hitler for his study of the occult.

I was waiting for someone to say that. Yes I would disqualify Hitler in fact he evoked the Almighty as justification for his actions in several of his speeches. What you don't see is any of the other figures you mentioned evoking their atheism or lack of belief as justification for their actions. Their actions were motivated by essentially the same thing as any tyrant, Hitler included. Power. Control. Authority. And all the luxuries that come as a result. Violence is in our nature so I suppose it is not right to attribute causation to religion however justification is just as heinous. Also the evidence for Pol Pot even being an atheist is questionable.

 

[PratchettFan]

It is when you have a breakdown of government and religion (such as what you currently see in Iraq) that our true nature becomes apparent.

Religion when it works exactly as it is supposed to causes violence and persecution. Throughout European history Catholics tortured and murdered Protestants in droves especially in France and England. The Protestants did the same when they had the chance during King Henry VIII's reign. And during the Spanish Inquisition many were tortured and killed as well for being of a different faith or culture. That is not war, it is not progression of a society through conflict it is just evil. When the Jews arrived in the promised land it was already inhabited and the Jews massacred those natives. Then they said that it was God's will and vilified those people. Religion, at least in the case of Western religion is extremely violent and murderous at its very core. Eastern religion has sparked violence but it is normally localized because their is not the same marriage of church and state in the East. The Daimyo of Japan observed the religion of their people but when the monks took to killing each other over it they did not join in.

No, it doesn't. Religion causing nothing. It has never picked up a sword or wielded a gun. Religion is nothing but a word we use to describe a human behavior. All the things you talk about were done by people, and other people did exactly the same things for reasons other than religion. People kill because we are killers and to try and blame that on religion is to simply ignore reality.

Violence is curtailed by stable societies and religion is necessary for stable societies.