methinks this one “born again” poster posteth too much

[tinydancer]

Ok this is why I rarely cruise by this forum.

We are all saints.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Ok this is why I rarely cruise by this forum.

We are all saints.

We are if we belong to Christ. You must be born again. We are the saints that return with Him to prevent our next war from annihilating all life on earth.
Those that died holding on to their sins are the ones judged at the White Throne Judgment. They are not considered saints.

 

[turzovka]

If as some claim, we go to Heaven on death, perhaps you can explain why on Judgement day God will raise the dead and call forth the dead from the Seas? I mean if they already were judged when they died why would he need to call them forth?

That is a very good question.
To make it to heaven, one must be sin free, so if you are there, you are sin free. To be without sin is the direct result of exchanging places with Christ on that cross. He looked like us on the cross, we look like Him to our Father. That is the exchange.

If God is going to judge you after He already judged Christ for your sins, He can't be considered 100% just. It would be like a judge sentencing a killer to death, and then grabbing some one off the street that is completely innocent and sentencing him for the same crime. It is not going to happen. Christ removed our sins once and for all.

When God said He would remember your sins no more, He meant it. How can He judge you on something He doesn't even remember happening? If you accept the gift of salvation Christ offers you, then your sins are behind God.

What He judges is the amount of good things you did for Christ's sake so He can reward you. < THAT is the only judgment in a Christian's future.

The judgment you refer to is the White Throne Judgment which takes place at the end of the millennial reign of Christ. At that judgment, Satan and his followers are permanently dispatched to the lake of fire, and those who died without the benefit of being washed clean by way of the cross will plead their cases. < Those are the dead you referred to.

It appears to me that a lot of your protestant Christians on this board are really closed off to any Scriptural challenges and just keep repeating your favorite verses. There are a lot of questions out there your theology has no answer for. Which is not terribly awful, but what is is how you speak with such utmost certainty of what it takes to be saved and why so many others cannot be saved. This is the kind of judging our Lord warned against. (I wonder, if a Muslim boy dies at the age of 10, does he go to heaven? How about 12? or 14?)

I wrote many verses in my top post. None of you Christian responders even addressed one of them. Is that not God speaking to us? Then interpret it for us.

 

[MaxGrit]

[Romans 8:30 (ESV) et al.

Are you able to supply me with an interpretation of the verses I submitted above?

That is God speaking through the author as well.

God breathed is not the same as God speaking through man.

I don't interpret verses. I listen as God explain His word. Holy Spirit teaches me and I try to understand and remember as best as I can.

 

[turzovka]

[Romans 8:30 (ESV) et al.

Are you able to supply me with an interpretation of the verses I submitted above?

That is God speaking through the author as well.

God breathed is not the same as God speaking through man.

I don't interpret verses. I listen as God explain His word. Holy Spirit teaches me and I try to understand and remember as best as I can.

Well all well and good for you. But as a Christian we are commissioned to witness to the world. And Jesus gave His authority to The Church to instruct, guide and interpret. It is not intended we think and operate in a personal vacuum because there will be error.

What I am saying is when you and others just stand on your select verses and then boldly proclaim all these truths that allegedly trump all other verses, teachings, and challenges, you may be doing many others a disservice. And that is how I read so many posts here.

 

[The Irish Ram]

There is only one reason "so many" cannot be saved. They choose to hold on to their sins, instead of accepting the gift Christ offered them of taking their sins with Him to the cross.
Christ excluded no one. The gift is for all of us. I'd write it in stone if I had a chisel.

Wonder no more, yes, little Muslim boys and girls go to Heaven if they die prematurely, just like the rest.
The age of accountability depends on the person and God. We set ages, but God knows when each of us become accountable. Look how long it took Samson to grow up.
I'm not here as much as I'd like and usually come into a thread long after it started. I will look at your questions and do the best I can to answer them this evening.

 

[MaxGrit]

Acts 10

So Peter opened his mouth and said: &#8220;Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.

God shows no partiality means he elects to save whomever he chooses, without regard to man made labels. Only the Saints, after being saved by God's grace alone, fear God.

What is fear of God? It does not mean terror of God.

Fear of God happens naturally when a person knows, understands , and acknowledges God as God. Basically, he comes to a realization of God's infinite nature along with His divine authority over all creation.

Matthew 16

Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, &#8220;Who do people say that the Son of Man is?&#8221; And they said, &#8220;Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.&#8221; He said to them, &#8220;But who do you say that I am?&#8221; Simon Peter replied, &#8220;You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.&#8221; And Jesus answered him, &#8220;Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The rock is, "my Father who is in heaven."

I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.&#8221;

&#8220;Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.&#8221;

The Saints know that it's God's will that is to be done. They want not their will, but God's will be done in regards to what they bind or loose on earth. Since it is God's will in the first place, naturally it in heaven it will be the same.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw&#8212; each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

The true foundation is, "my Father who is in heaven." Basically telling the Saints that working for God is different than working for the self.

Matthew 12:32

And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

It's impossible to forgive entities that hate God simply because God is God.

 

[MaxGrit]

Are you able to supply me with an interpretation of the verses I submitted above?

That is God speaking through the author as well.

God breathed is not the same as God speaking through man.

I don't interpret verses. I listen as God explain His word. Holy Spirit teaches me and I try to understand and remember as best as I can.

Well all well and good for you. But as a Christian we are commissioned to witness to the world. And Jesus gave His authority to The Church to instruct, guide and interpret. It is not intended we think and operate in a personal vacuum because there will be error.

The Saints is the church. The church in its entirety is all the elect, Saints, and no one else. Only God knows who all the Saints are.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

methinks this one &#8220;born again&#8221; poster posteth too much

Does he have two belly buttons?

 

[amrchaos]

I am still trying to figure out this poster who post too much

It can't be the op--he is pretty much confined to this topic.

Let see, a born again christian that spams the board.....hmmm



Oh yeah, I think I know who

 

[shart_attack]

If Scripture is your only defense to those who reject purgatory, then consider Scripture:

Matthew 5:23-26
"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Reconcile with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid up the last penny.&#8221;

Jesus is assuring us (&#8220;truly I say to you&#8221 that we will pay (be imprisoned) for a portion our transgressions until we have paid the last penny if we do not forgive others or obey. The key word is until. It is clear that once we have paid for our sins, then we will be released from our prison. That is not Hell because Hell is eternal. This is not an earthly reference as many who are to be saved have died without fulfilling all the requirements this passage implies. This is referring to purgatory where you will be eventually released.

No offense, but yeah, well, says you &#8212; and those of your Creed who believe as you do.

Some of my best friends are Catholic. And some of the nicest, most precious, greatest, least and just plain ol' best all-around people I've ever met in all my 41 years have been Catholic.

But Christ never Himself explicitly said anything about Purgatory, and that's all I need to know about it.

Further, it stands to reason that if Purgatory (not the concept of purgatory; but Purgatory itself, specifically &#8212; a proper noun by virtue of its place in the fundamental Catechism of the Catholic Church) is a doctrine which was in fact taught by our Savior, why wasn't it officially adopted by the First Council of Nicaea, when Christ's birth, death and Resurrection wasn't yet even 300 years old?

Shouldn't Purgatory's importance have been something still very fresh on the minds of those who officially started the Creed?

Why was the doctrine not recognized by the Church until some eight centuries later?

And also important: Is it a matter of mere coincidence that the idea just happened to be conceived officially in the same time period when the Church was battling rampant corruption&#8212;in particular, the selling of indulgences&#8212;by apostates?

Yes, most of us are no doubt very likely aware that one of the most beautiful things about our Savior, the Master Storyteller, is that He spoke in allegories, in Parables, so He could reach a broader audience beyond His disciples, as He says in Matthew Chapter 13:10-17. Many people who aren't Christians, and sadly, even many who themselves claim to be Christians, do not know this.

We could start another thread entirely about what Christ said about Hell in general&#8212;all the verses about it, all the Parables about it, the names he called it, when its flames will be lit, if its flames will ever be extinguished, the fact that its very existence makes some if not many non-Christians very uncomfortable with the idea of our greater* Faith, among an assortment of questions&#8212;because He did mention it more than He did Heaven; but that's another thread.

Whether Christ's Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is merely a parable about the afterlife or a story to be taken very, very literally is also another thread.

The fact is that our Savior spoke of Hell&#8212;whatever its literally-translated names, be they sheol, hades, gehenna, etc.&#8212;many times. He did not, however, ever speak literally about Purgatory.

I'm pretty sure the reason He didn't is because he knew that upon His resurrection, Purgatory simply wouldn't be necessary.

God bless you, turzovka.

* greater = Christianity's wide array of denominations; its branches.

 

[turzovka]

If Scripture is your only defense to those who reject purgatory, then consider Scripture:

Matthew 5:23-26
"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Reconcile with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid up the last penny.&#8221;

Jesus is assuring us (&#8220;truly I say to you&#8221 that we will pay (be imprisoned) for a portion our transgressions until we have paid the last penny if we do not forgive others or obey. The key word is until. It is clear that once we have paid for our sins, then we will be released from our prison. That is not Hell because Hell is eternal. This is not an earthly reference as many who are to be saved have died without fulfilling all the requirements this passage implies. This is referring to purgatory where you will be eventually released.

No offense, but yeah, well, says you &#8212; and those of your Creed who believe as you do.

Some of my best friends are Catholic. And some of the nicest, most precious, greatest, least and just plain ol' best all-around people I've ever met in all my 41 years have been Catholic.

But Christ never Himself explicitly said anything about Purgatory, and that's all I need to know about it.

Further, it stands to reason that if Purgatory (not the concept of purgatory; but Purgatory itself, specifically &#8212; a proper noun by virtue of its place in the fundamental Catechism of the Catholic Church) is a doctrine which was in fact taught by our Savior, why wasn't it officially adopted by the First Council of Nicaea, when Christ's birth, death and Resurrection wasn't yet even 300 years old?

Shouldn't Purgatory's importance have been something still very fresh on the minds of those who officially started the Creed?

Why was the doctrine not recognized by the Church until some eight centuries later?

And also important: Is it a matter of mere coincidence that the idea just happened to be conceived officially in the same time period when the Church was battling rampant corruption&#8212;in particular, the selling of indulgences&#8212;by apostates?

Yes, most of us are no doubt very likely aware that one of the most beautiful things about our Savior, the Master Storyteller, is that He spoke in allegories, in Parables, so He could reach a broader audience beyond His disciples, as He says in Matthew Chapter 13:10-17. Many people who aren't Christians, and sadly, even many who themselves claim to be Christians, do not know this.

We could start another thread entirely about what Christ said about Hell in general&#8212;all the verses about it, all the Parables about it, the names he called it, when its flames will be lit, if its flames will ever be extinguished, the fact that its very existence makes some if not many non-Christians very uncomfortable with the idea of our greater* Faith, among an assortment of questions&#8212;because He did mention it more than He did Heaven; but that's another thread.

Whether Christ's Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus is merely a parable about the afterlife or a story to be taken very, very literally is also another thread.

The fact is that our Savior spoke of Hell&#8212;whatever its literally-translated names, be they sheol, hades, gehenna, etc.&#8212;many times. He did not, however, ever speak literally about Purgatory.

I'm pretty sure the reason He didn't is because he knew that upon His resurrection, Purgatory simply wouldn't be necessary.

God bless you, turzovka.

* greater = Christianity's wide array of denominations; its branches.

I have no quarrels with those who do not believe in purgatory. But neither do I put greater value in their opinions than I do the Church and the saints and Scripture.

When Jesus says &#8220;truly I say unto you&#8221; that is of special importance. He said in John 6 when speaking of His true body and His true blood being present in the form of bread and wine at mass. This, too, is glossed over, IMO.

You will not be released until you have paid the last penny is glaring. They are released! That is not hell, and it surely is not earthly lives either.

Saved but as through fire is not what protestants imagine in their salvation. What fire?

I am not going to repeat myself further, all those verses I mentioned are problematic for the heaven or hell immediately upon death crowd. And I could give many, many more verses from Scripture that I and/or the Catholic Church maintain speak of purgatory. But the interest level is not there. Too many other Christians have made up their minds that the Catholic Church is in error or even an apostasy. Fine, but that hardly prevents me from pointing out why I believe only one of us can be right on these matters and I am more than willing to present our reasons or evidence.

What do you know about Fatima? Do you believe what took place there was from God or from the devil? Or do you think everyone hallucinated? To ignore Fatima is not a proper response. That is what the secular world does. They do it all the time.

Three young children who had been witnessing apparitions of the Virgin Mary prophesied three months in advance (July 13) that a great miracle would be performed by Our Lady for all those people present and doubting the children to see on October 13th. So on a very rainy, muddy gray Portugal day 70,000 people arrived at the Cova da Iria to see if the children were truly prophets. Soon after 12 noon the rain stopped and the gray skies were split in two by an incredible sun which was inexplicably viewable to the human eye without damage. It looked like a silver disc and started &#8220;dancing.&#8221; Bouncing up and down defying cosmic laws. Then it started spinning and shooting off rays of all kinds of colors across the sky and landscape changing the faces of the crowd to blue, yellow, green, etc. It carried on in this remarkable fashion for twelve minutes. For its grand finale the sun turned blood red grew in size and charged toward the earth greatly frightening all present. At the last moment it stopped and receded peacefully into the sky.

This was a miracle beyond doubt. There were no longer any skeptics present. All saw that which was astoundingly prophesied three months in advance to the day. The soaked muddy ground was bone dry after this occurrence as a secondary miracle. These facts were reported in the various newspapers including O Seculo, Lisbon&#8217;s largest, if one wants further verification. Mary told of other events as related by the children that also came true, if one wants further verification.

I report this for one purpose, specifically for Protestants. One of the children, Lucia, asked about a relative by name who recently died. The Virgin Mother said that woman was in purgatory and would be there for a long time. Question: How can a person of normal intelligence and reason doubt the supernatural nature of this event? Question: How can anyone who accepts this miracle then doubt the other words Our Lady gave to these children, very specifically the mention of purgatory?


To your other questions which I have little time for now: Purgatory was spoken of since the earliest church times. There are writings from saints that I could produce here.

The Church councils of early times were developing many crucial doctrines and fighting terrible heresies. It is not as though they were purposefully ignoring anything.

Jesus spoke of purgatory in many ways. The fact he did not make everything absolutely crystal clear was almost assuredly for our own benefit. Think about it: if we knew we could be so-so in our conduct and our concerns for God and still ultimately make it to heaven, would that not produce laziness and selfishness in the believers all the more? Yes, it would. Not unlike Jesus does not tell us precisely when He will return because there are many fools out there who would &#8220;party down&#8221; and wait until a month or so before that appointed time and then make peace with their God. We are not given full knowledge of all things for our own good. I could say more but I am pressed here at work.

However, to think that purgatory does not make more sense than just heaven or hell alone is just untenable and flies in the face of a merciful God. Unbelievers can make it to heaven, so can those who despise Christianity but are obedient to their Islam god. So can 15 year old careless youth who are days into their &#8220;age of accountability.&#8221; IOW, if they were a few days younger God would have not held them accountable but now he does so it&#8217;s hell for you guy? There are so many problems with the protestant doctrines on salvation it troubles me. You have answers for your own church group but for the larger world you have no answers. You do not want to even consider it because it is so problematic. Well God is not so bound by your Scriptures. He will save far, far, far more souls than what I am hearing being preached by so many ministers. IMO.

 

[shart_attack]

To your other questions which I have little time for now: Purgatory was spoken of since the earliest church times. There are writings from saints that I could produce here.

Not from Jesus Christ, though, you can't.

 

[hortysir]

Nor is Scripture the be all and end all of our Lord witnessing to the world. The Church has as much or more authority than Holy Scripture itself.

Which is, exactly, my problem with the Catholic church.

Nevermind that we are to call no man 'priest' as Jesus was the final Priest.

Or that we have only one Father

or

or

 

[MaxGrit]

However, to think that purgatory does not make more sense than just heaven or hell alone is just untenable and flies in the face of a merciful God. Unbelievers can make it to heaven, so can those who despise Christianity but are obedient to their Islam god. So can 15 year old careless youth who are days into their &#8220;age of accountability.&#8221; IOW, if they were a few days younger God would have not held them accountable but now he does so it&#8217;s hell for you guy? There are so many problems with the protestant doctrines on salvation it troubles me. You have answers for your own church group but for the larger world you have no answers. You do not want to even consider it because it is so problematic. Well God is not so bound by your Scriptures. He will save far, far, far more souls than what I am hearing being preached by so many ministers. IMO.

The truth troubles you so much that you refuses to believe it. Jesus made it clear that many people end up in Hell, while few end up in Heaven. You are a Humanist who thinks that good works get humans into heaven. It won't. It is not by works, but by God's grace alone that the elect are saved.

Matthew 7 (English Standard Version)

&#8220;Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

&#8220;Not everyone who says to me, &#8216;Lord, Lord,&#8217; will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, &#8216;Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?&#8217; And then will I declare to them, &#8216;I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.&#8217;

 

[turzovka]

The truth troubles you so much that you refuses to believe it. Jesus made it clear that many people end up in Hell, while few end up in Heaven. You are a Humanist who thinks that good works get humans into heaven. It won't. It is not by works, but by God's grace alone that the elect are saved.

Matthew 7 (English Standard Version)

&#8220;Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

The trouble is not the truth, the trouble is you or your pastor are too sure of themselves what one particular Bible verse means. Destruction is the English word and even if that is what was meant, destruction does not necessarily mean eternal hell. It could mean arduous centuries of purification and loneliness in purgatory, as though that is not destruction enough.

I do not have the time presently to expound on my position, but I will say one problem all these protestant versions of God&#8217;s word is, is that they do not accept what Jeus meant by establishing His Church in Matthew 16! You dance around that with so many desperate versions of the facts that it becomes sad. I will leave you with something I wrote awhile back but kept it for reference.

-----------------------------------------------


When was the Church born, and what is &#8220;the Church?&#8221; Jesus established His Church in Matthew 16 when He said to Peter &#8220;thou art rock and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against thee. I give thee the keys of the kingdom&#8230; whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.&#8221; That is no small gift of authority so ordained by Christ. Clearly Jesus knew what would transpire after his ascension, that being disagreement amongst the believers. Who is to say what God intended? Jesus said it was to be His Church, the authority Christ established with apostolic succession, Peter being the first papal authority. This line of succession of papal authority, even though it was corrupted by weak man, has never been broken. As many doctors of the Church have reminded us, it is not the pope that is divine or holy, it is the office of the pope that is divinely ordained.

So it was the Church along with its many councils of ordained bishops and Church leaders that convened to rule on very difficult matters, such as what books are divinely inspired to be included as part of Holy Scripture and the Word of God. It was the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit, that gave us the Bible. And that was more than 300 years after Jesus when it was finally codified. The Church was the vehicle by which Christianity became widespread. The Church is the authority despite it being made up of sinners.

So who is it to interpret Scripture, any individual who has their own take on the passage? That would never work. But as a result of that we have thousands of different Christian denominations all insisting they have the purest truth of salvation. How can all be right when they differ so often? It is worth noting that even though there have been many sinful and corrupt popes, none of them ever issued a decree that went against dogma and Catholic teaching on faith and morals. These doctrines have always been the same and no compromise was allowed when Luther and Calvin broke away from the Catholic Church in the 1500&#8217;s. Question: Did God allow His Church, the Catholic Church, to be teaching great error to His people for 1500 years, and just waited for Luther to come along to start us on the right path? How does that line up with God&#8217;s mercy and will for all those in love with Jesus prior to the Reformation?

Some have argued that &#8220;the church&#8221; is where two or more are gathered in Christ as Scripture says. That may be &#8220;church&#8221; in some sense of the word, but in other passages church means something very different. As in Matthew 18:15-17 &#8220;If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church treat him as a tax collector.&#8221; Other Scriptural examples exist as well. The Church is an ordained body of authority --- including here in 1 Timothy 3 >> "I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15 but [k]in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth."

 

[The Irish Ram]

All this certainty that who will be saved and who will not.
All this certainty what it takes to be saved and how easily it sounds.
All this certainty that at the moment of death heaven is guaranteed and immediate.

None of that is found in the Catholic Church. We go about our trials more as St. Paul said to “work out our own salvation in fear and trembling.” Philipians 2:12

I will also point out Acts 10:34-35 Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.

Heaven is not the exclusive domain of the sincere Christian.

Nor is Scripture the be all and end all of our Lord witnessing to the world. The Church has as much or more authority than Holy Scripture itself. As Jesus said Himself in Matthew 16!

Finally, purgatory is a reality as much as heaven and hell. This is where God’s justice and mercy are meted out and all becomes perfect and just. The “sin of presumption” is that the believer believes his accepting Christ is all that is necessary for his defiled self to be granted immediate entrance into the kingdom upon death. And yet Revelations says “nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom.”

If Scripture is your only defense to those who reject purgatory, then consider Scripture:

Matthew 5:23-26
"Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. Reconcile with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid up the last penny.”

[Jesus is assuring us (“truly I say to you”) that we will pay (be imprisoned) for a portion our transgressions until we have paid the last penny if we do not forgive others or obey. The key word is until. It is clear that once we have paid for our sins, then we will be released from our prison. That is not Hell because Hell is eternal. This is not an earthly reference as many who are to be saved have died without fulfilling all the requirements this passage implies. This is referring to purgatory where you will be eventually released.]


Luke 12:45-48
But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk: the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. And that slave who knew his master's will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

[The one slave who was not as guilty because he was somewhat ignorant of the gravity of his sins will receive less lashes. Note, he will still be punished, but not as severely. This is clearly not talking about hell, it is about some punishment that is less than eternal. It is purgatory once again. Different degrees of punishment which is how many have described it. Also, to whom more has been given (i.e. knowledge, riches, revelation, opportunity, etc.) more will be required; otherwise something consequential results. ]


1 Corinthians 3:12-15
Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

[Saved, but still will suffer loss as yet through fire. Protestants can argue this is some earthly punishment, not an afterlife matter, but I, and the Catholic Church, say not so. This is so much better explained as a purgatory sentence. Purgatory is a cleansing fire.]


Matthew 12:32
Whoever says anything against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever says anything against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

[To me this further indicates that certain sins will cause some to suffer punishment eternally, no doubt. However, more importantly, this indicates that there is forgiveness for some in the age to come. For who? Those in heaven? They need no more forgiveness? For those in hell? No, because hell is eternal and there is no forgiveness at that point. It is for those in purgatory in the age that still awaits them.]


Luke 7:47
I tell you, that is why her many sins are forgiven --- because of her great love. Little is forgiven the one whose love is small.

[To me, this points to a one having some sentence in Purgatory in the age to come. For those who forgave “little” on earth, God is saying he will forgive “little” when judging you. He’s not saying he will forgive “nothing”, but something. In other words, he is lessening your debt, not totally removing it, and not totally condemning you either.]


These passages above are demanding more than just faith from us, more than just accepting Jesus as our Savior. To think we are allowed into heaven without anything more than just accepting some idea as truth, and then having license to live our life as carefree as desired I would think would be detestable to God. You may not be condemned, but we will need to be purified for our carelessness and sin of presuming we deserve immediate entry into heaven which is all pure and holy. As Revelations 21 says “nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom.”

Ok Turv. Here are the answer to your questions:

Doctrine for Catholics deals more with Catholicism than Christ. What they did was called replacement theology. They added to and took away from God's word and replaced it with their own doctrine. That meant the making up of purgatory and the ridding of purgatory when it became necessary. At this time Catholics have put purgatory in the "does not exist" column.

As far as working your way to Heaven, the Jews tried for 1,500 years before Christ came to fulfill the law for them, and not 1, I repeat, not 1 made it on their own merit.
If works can admit you to Heaven, how many of your good works does it take to cancel out your bad works? What is the purgatory chart for cancellation of debt?

What sin do you have that you think Christ was unable to rid you of?

Paul said this:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Someone had to have already paid for Paul's sins for him to be able to say that.
To be with the Lord, is to be in Heaven. Christ is not in purgatory.

Paul was very clear about works:

Romans 8:3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh...

Being good, doesn't work. The very best of us fail. Christ did not fail. His sin free life was what He gave us in return for our sins. That was the exchange.


Works are for reward. Salvation is through faith that Christ wiped your slate clean.
He said so and so did Paul, over and over again:

John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one goes to the Father except through me.

Your righteousness has nothing to do with it.

… Ephesians 2:9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Romans 3:28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

2 Timothy 1:9 He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Romans 3:20,27,28 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified …

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he has whereof to glory; …

Romans 9:11,16 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good …

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is …

1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in his presence…

2 Timothy 1:9 Who has saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according …

Titus 3:3-5 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, …

His love for us saves us, not our love for Him.

 

[turzovka]

Ok Turv. Here are the answer to your questions:

Doctrine for Catholics deals more with Catholicism than Christ. What they did was called replacement theology. They added to and took away from God's word and replaced it with their own doctrine. That meant the making up of purgatory and the ridding of purgatory when it became necessary. At this time Catholics have put purgatory in the "does not exist" column.

His love for us saves us, not our love for Him.

Everyone in purgatory IS saved!

And if you think Catholics or the Catholic Church has ever put purgatory in the "does not exist column" you are listening to false teachers with your "itchy ears."

I am sorry, but you are still avoiding the subject. You are avoiding direct comment on the verses I presented.

Not only do I offer seven or so passages of Scripture in my top post that point to purgatory, I have at least 20 others I would ask the same question for interpretation.

Not only do I have that but also the writings of early church fathers. Not only that but the words of the Virgin Mary at Fatima 1917 where she mentions purgatory very specifically.

Not only that but Jewish writings that refer to it. And the revelations of great holy saints.

And so on.

Protestant teachings are simply too black and white. They lack mercy. They lack love. They are not the Church. They are ecclesiastical communities, but not Thee Church Jesus established. The one where He said “Whose sins you loose here on earth, they are loosed in heaven. Whose sins you retain here on earth, they are retained in heaven.”

I might add, Protestant teachings also dance about John 6. It is truly Jesus flesh and blood in the consecrated host at a Catholic mass. It is what He Himself said it would be.

 

[The Irish Ram]

St. Paul was black and white:

Absent from the body is present with the Lord.

That is merciful. That is love. Not hanging around in some waiting room working off your sin. So, either Paul is wrong, or the Catholic Church is wrong.

Take the practice of baptizing babies. Baptism is a public affirmation of one who intends to give his life to Christ. It puts the old man to death and and new person in Christ emerges. That is called "born again".
No where in the Bible does it tell us to baptize babies so they can go to Heaven if the die. If they are absent from the body, they are with the Lord. God's word is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Church doctrine comes and goes:

Britain's newspaper-website, Telegraph.co.uk , in an article written by Nick Pisa in Rome, reports: "Babies who die before being baptized will no longer be trapped in Limbo following a decision by the Pope to abolish the concept from Roman Catholic teaching. The decision was taken after Pope Benedict XVI was presented with Vatican studies that said there were 'serious' grounds that such souls could go to heaven, rather than exist between heaven and hell as they have done for almost 800 years."

Do you really believe that because a Pope said so, that babies actually went somewhere other than to their Father for 800 years, and now because a Pope decides differently, that Limbo just sort of ceases to exist? Or was Paul right all along.....
It is the same reason my Catholic husband eats meat on Fridays with a clear conscience. Meat, fish, or the lack thereof, has nothing to do with his relationship with Christ.
I don't know of one church that hasn't added to or taken away from God's word to produce their own brand of religious dogma.

As for the church of Rome being "thee" church, it isn't even addressed as one of the seven churches referred to in Revelation as one of the seven lampstands that Christ is in the midst of, the ones that will join Him in the Temple:

Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches

.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Finally, purgatory is a reality as much as heaven and hell. This is where God&#8217;s justice and mercy are meted out and all becomes perfect and just. The &#8220;sin of presumption&#8221; is that the believer believes his accepting Christ is all that is necessary for his defiled self to be granted immediate entrance into the kingdom upon death. And yet Revelations says &#8220;nothing defiled shall enter the kingdom.&#8221;

Then what on earth was Christ doing hanging on that cross? I thought that is where God meted out justice. And now is when He is merciful. So you're saying that God does remember our sins, and intends to judge them again? Even though Christ already paid our debt in full?
If so, then God is a liar, and Christ was inept.

An exchange took place, Christ became our sin. We became His righteousness. That's the whole plan of salvation. That's the whole idea. It is how we are able to enter Heaven undefiled, and go boldly to the throne.
Might I remind you that the punishment for sin is death, not some halfway house. Does God kill you in purgatory and then hug you mercifully back to life? The punishment for sin is death, the second death. Anything less and God is not 100% just. And there is 0 mercy in punishing 2 people for 1 person's crimes.

The sin of presumption deals with the act of sinning, the intent to sin, not the act of believing. And has nothing to do with accepting the gift< something you didn't pay for, of redemption.

I referenced C. Spurgeon for the def of presumptuous:

WHAT IS PRESUMPTUOUS SIN? Now, I think here must be one of four things in a sin in order to make it presumptuous. It must either be a sin against light and knowledge, or a sin committed with deliberation, or a sin committed with a design of sinning, merely for sinning's sake, or else it must be a sin committed through hardihood, from a man's rash confidence in his own strength.

It has nothing to do with believing that Christ died for my sins. All of them. It is finished. Fait accompli. It is His gift to us. We can add nothing to it. God is too just to punish my sin twice. He can't even remember what my sins are, they are that far behind Him.

How many times does He have to say it?

Isaiah 43:25 "I, I am the one who blots out your transgression for my own sake, and I'll remember your sins no more.

He never adds, "as soon as you and my Son are done paying for them." Instead He says, "Come to me." That is love.