Minimum Wage --Prevents-- Wealth Acquisition!

Boss

Take a Memo:
Apr 21, 2012
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Most liberals don't understand this because they don't really grasp the principles of free market capitalism. They react emotively and without thinking about consequences of what their emotions drive them to do. And when you're dealing with free market capitalism, this can be very costly because you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Such is the case with our beloved minimum wage.

Oh sure, it has been considered a wonderful idea through all the years... helped the poor exploited worker be treated at least half-way decently... but it has also produced a society full of idiots who don't comprehend how it has damaged the individual's ability to prosper. It's a big giant ball and chain on our ability to negotiate. In order to understand this, you must understand how the principles of free market capitalism (supply and demand) operate.

As I said, the toothpaste is out already, can't put it back now... So I am not suggesting we should get rid of the minimum wage at this time. Various reasons for that but it all goes back to the toothpaste already being out of the tube... we've already established a free market system around this baseline labor cost, any change now would be somewhat detrimental to a lot of people. The better idea at this point is to leave it alone and focus on making it irrelevant. Raising it is stupid and pointless because all you're ultimately doing is decreasing the value of a dollar.

But now... Let's go back to 1912, when this issue was first being debated. The First Progressive Movement was hell bent on establishing a minimum wage, at that time, for women and children. They tried numerous times to do this and kept running into failure because the Supreme Court continued to rule the minimum wage unconstitutional. This went on for over 20 years in the first part of the 20th century. So when we get to the Great Depression, FDR takes this opportunity to implement a national minimum wage. He says, and I quote:

"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

Now...... THAT sounds very familiar, doesn't it? ....Where have I heard THAT recently? Can it not be clearer that this abysmal liberal policy has FAILED? Here we are, 82 years later and the same Progressives are screaming the same thing! The dollar amount is all that is different.

Same argument, same idea, same solution that hasn't worked in 82 years. But it's all about emotion, you see?

Okay, follow me here... think about, what if.... What IF we had not adopted a MW and instead, we promoted individual and collective bargaining? We could have established anti-trust laws where employers had to 'reasonably negotiate' with prospective employees on the specific job available. Of course, we have to understand there were "corporatists" back then who didn't want that to happen. They went along with this "minimum wage" idea because it effectively base-lined labor costs. Think about it for a hot second...

Every wage in America, whether you belong to a union or not, is pretty much determined in relation to the current minimum wage. If that goes up, so do all the wages up the ladder because that is their base line. As long as the minimum wage remains where it is, the motivation for the capitalist is to keep wages the same. so we've stagnated wealth acquisition by base-lining labor cost. You can't negotiate a higher wage because the wage is set according to the minimum you've set. Raising the minimum doesn't help you negotiate, it eliminates the job you're negotiating for. If there were no such thing as a minimum wage, you could negotiate based on market value of labor.

We don't know how free market forces would have worked the past 82 years... Sure, children and women were exploited back in 1912... Sure, people were struggling in 1933... but had we taken a different road, one that encouraged free market capitalism instead of trying to regulate it... we may have experienced a different result. It might be that today, an average worker negotiates $15 hr. for a burger flipper job because no one else wants to flip burgers? It might mean the value of the dollar never declined and $5 hr. buys as much as $15 today? We just don't know because we didn't take that road.
 
What a load, as is proven by the accumulation of wealth by the middle class after WWII, and yes they had minimum wage then also...
 
Stick with a minimum wage job and often times opportunity for advancement will present itself.
Many people have risen through the ranks this way.

That's a great point but the thread OP isn't really about that. Think of a world where "minimum wage" never existed? Think of all the types of arrangements which could be made between parties? Maybe I offer an inexperienced laborer and opportunity to train for 90 days at a pay rate of $40 a day... if he completes the training, he is hired as skilled labor making $20 hr. Or maybe I have a job that not many people want to do. When I offer to pay $7.50 hr., people laugh at me... you gotta be kidding, Boss... no way! So not having some arbitrary "baseline" to price labor, I might pay $10hr.. or $15hr. Eventually, I will offer an amount that is attractive to someone who doesn't mind the job. That's how free market systems work.

As it stands, no need for me to offer more... it's a shit job that pays shit wages because the price of labor is baselined. The corporatist has been given a free pass here... you've set up an artificial parameter they can exploit to their advantage by not increasing wages because they can always point to the minimum wage, which their pay scales are based upon. Basically, we've screwed ourselves out of being to negotiate in a free market way for the use of our labor. There could be jobs you wouldn't mind doing for $2 an hr., just so you can get experience. If you're okay with that and they are okay with it, why shouldn't you be able to negotiate it? Well, you can't now because of minimum wage.
 
Stick with a minimum wage job and often times opportunity for advancement will present itself.
Many people have risen through the ranks this way.

That's a great point but the thread OP isn't really about that. Think of a world where "minimum wage" never existed? Think of all the types of arrangements which could be made between parties? Maybe I offer an inexperienced laborer and opportunity to train for 90 days at a pay rate of $40 a day... if he completes the training, he is hired as skilled labor making $20 hr. Or maybe I have a job that not many people want to do. When I offer to pay $7.50 hr., people laugh at me... you gotta be kidding, Boss... no way! So not having some arbitrary "baseline" to price labor, I might pay $10hr.. or $15hr. Eventually, I will offer an amount that is attractive to someone who doesn't mind the job. That's how free market systems work.

As it stands, no need for me to offer more... it's a shit job that pays shit wages because the price of labor is baselined. The corporatist has been given a free pass here... you've set up an artificial parameter they can exploit to their advantage by not increasing wages because they can always point to the minimum wage, which their pay scales are based upon. Basically, we've screwed ourselves out of being to negotiate in a free market way for the use of our labor. There could be jobs you wouldn't mind doing for $2 an hr., just so you can get experience. If you're okay with that and they are okay with it, why shouldn't you be able to negotiate it? Well, you can't now because of minimum wage.
When there was no minimum wage in the industrial era, wages were shit wages and working hours were long, people barely made enough to pay for basic necessities.Have you never studied sociology on the pre-modern industrial age?
 
Stick with a minimum wage job and often times opportunity for advancement will present itself.
Many people have risen through the ranks this way.

That's a great point but the thread OP isn't really about that. Think of a world where "minimum wage" never existed? Think of all the types of arrangements which could be made between parties? Maybe I offer an inexperienced laborer and opportunity to train for 90 days at a pay rate of $40 a day... if he completes the training, he is hired as skilled labor making $20 hr. Or maybe I have a job that not many people want to do. When I offer to pay $7.50 hr., people laugh at me... you gotta be kidding, Boss... no way! So not having some arbitrary "baseline" to price labor, I might pay $10hr.. or $15hr. Eventually, I will offer an amount that is attractive to someone who doesn't mind the job. That's how free market systems work.

As it stands, no need for me to offer more... it's a shit job that pays shit wages because the price of labor is baselined. The corporatist has been given a free pass here... you've set up an artificial parameter they can exploit to their advantage by not increasing wages because they can always point to the minimum wage, which their pay scales are based upon. Basically, we've screwed ourselves out of being to negotiate in a free market way for the use of our labor. There could be jobs you wouldn't mind doing for $2 an hr., just so you can get experience. If you're okay with that and they are okay with it, why shouldn't you be able to negotiate it? Well, you can't now because of minimum wage.
When there was no minimum wage in the industrial era, wages were shit wages and working hours were long, people barely made enough to pay for basic necessities.Have you never studied sociology on the pre-modern industrial age?

Yes, I understand that... AND... We assume the minimum wage was beneficial in solving a problem. But we see that it didn't solve the problem, the same exact argument FDR made is still being made today:

"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

What we actually did was create an artificial government override on free market capitalist principles of supply and demand. It made us feel good and when we first did it, seemed to help a little... but everything has a consequence and all that happened was the prices of things rose to adjust and we're back in the same boat until government intervenes again to raise the minimum wage.

Now what happens is, it takes years to get government to raise the minimum wage. Mainly because corporatists own the politicians and they don't want that to happen. But in the meantime, you have no leverage to negotiate, you've ceded that to the government and an established base line on labor cost. And there is another reason the government can't constantly be raising the minimum wage, it simply can't keep on going up indefinitely. If we tried to adjust minimum wage every year to keep up with inflation and cost of living, the minimum wage might be $30 hr. now and that's about what you'd be paying for a gallon of milk and loaf of bread.

So, the minimum wage has not worked as FDR intended, to resolve the problem he stated it would. We still have Democrat politicians yammering the very same mantra today! But what it HAS done is stabilize labor cost across the board and baselined that cost for every employer. Labor is no longer priced by forces of supply and demand, it is baselined on the established minimum wage set by government. In other words, I can no longer establish the minimum my labor is worth, it is already pre-set for me.

 
When there was no minimum wage in the industrial era, wages were shit wages and working hours were long, people barely made enough to pay for basic necessities.Have you never studied sociology on the pre-modern industrial age?

this idiot liberal has learned 124 times now that capitalism forces wages to the highest possible level. If a employer refuses to pay he goes bankrupt losing his best workers to those that do pay the highest possible.

A child can understand and learn just not a brainwashed Marxist tool.
 
I may be the only employer chiming in here, the existing minimum wage is not a hindrance for me or my business. Right now it's pretty low and has not adjusted upward in years. I dont feel it unfairly inflates the minimum wage cost on businesses I've run, even those with a high amount of minimum wage earners. The real goal is probably twofold; (1) offer an incentive to work and to get off the dole. As a conservative I support that. (2) help fund society to some minimal standard whether through minimum wages or government assistance. I still prefer wages over handouts.

If America really wanted a high minimum wage it would close the borders and support domestic manufacturing. Our nation has done neither but it's a broken system of government we're now dealing with.
 
I dont feel it unfairly inflates the minimum wage cost on businesses I've run,

That's because everyone else has to pay it too. If fast food sales go down as fool liberals impose higher and higher wages you won't be able to measure supermarket sales going up easily as a result but we do know that the higher the price to lower the demand.
 
I may be the only employer chiming in here, the existing minimum wage is not a hindrance for me or my business. Right now it's pretty low and has not adjusted upward in years.

My case in point. The minimum wage serves as a viable and legitimate reason for you, as an employer, to not feel all too compelled to raise wages, even though cost of living continues to rise. If they raise the minimum, you'll raise your wages a bit because everybody will... and that's how we now operate.

We don't know how things might have been had we never adopted minimum wages. If forces of free market capitalism prevailed, when the cost of living rose, you might feel compelled as an employer to pay higher wages because your employee needs more. There is no "base line" set by government for you to use as an excuse. I would have the power to negotiate higher wages... look Boss, I can't work for you at this price anymore, things are going up... and you'd say, I guess you're right, I need to pay you more because you are a valued employee and it would cost me more to replace you.

So again, we don't know how the dynamics of that may have worked through the years but we do know that it was a terrible idea to baseline the cost of labor. It has prevented wealth acquisition by limiting the leverage of negotiation by the individual.
 
Most liberals don't understand this because they don't really grasp the principles of free market capitalism. They react emotively and without thinking about consequences of what their emotions drive them to do. And when you're dealing with free market capitalism, this can be very costly because you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Such is the case with our beloved minimum wage.

Oh sure, it has been considered a wonderful idea through all the years... helped the poor exploited worker be treated at least half-way decently... but it has also produced a society full of idiots who don't comprehend how it has damaged the individual's ability to prosper. It's a big giant ball and chain on our ability to negotiate. In order to understand this, you must understand how the principles of free market capitalism (supply and demand) operate.

As I said, the toothpaste is out already, can't put it back now... So I am not suggesting we should get rid of the minimum wage at this time. Various reasons for that but it all goes back to the toothpaste already being out of the tube... we've already established a free market system around this baseline labor cost, any change now would be somewhat detrimental to a lot of people. The better idea at this point is to leave it alone and focus on making it irrelevant. Raising it is stupid and pointless because all you're ultimately doing is decreasing the value of a dollar.

But now... Let's go back to 1912, when this issue was first being debated. The First Progressive Movement was hell bent on establishing a minimum wage, at that time, for women and children. They tried numerous times to do this and kept running into failure because the Supreme Court continued to rule the minimum wage unconstitutional. This went on for over 20 years in the first part of the 20th century. So when we get to the Great Depression, FDR takes this opportunity to implement a national minimum wage. He says, and I quote:

"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

Now...... THAT sounds very familiar, doesn't it? ....Where have I heard THAT recently? Can it not be clearer that this abysmal liberal policy has FAILED? Here we are, 82 years later and the same Progressives are screaming the same thing! The dollar amount is all that is different.

Same argument, same idea, same solution that hasn't worked in 82 years. But it's all about emotion, you see?

Okay, follow me here... think about, what if.... What IF we had not adopted a MW and instead, we promoted individual and collective bargaining? We could have established anti-trust laws where employers had to 'reasonably negotiate' with prospective employees on the specific job available. Of course, we have to understand there were "corporatists" back then who didn't want that to happen. They went along with this "minimum wage" idea because it effectively base-lined labor costs. Think about it for a hot second...

Every wage in America, whether you belong to a union or not, is pretty much determined in relation to the current minimum wage. If that goes up, so do all the wages up the ladder because that is their base line. As long as the minimum wage remains where it is, the motivation for the capitalist is to keep wages the same. so we've stagnated wealth acquisition by base-lining labor cost. You can't negotiate a higher wage because the wage is set according to the minimum you've set. Raising the minimum doesn't help you negotiate, it eliminates the job you're negotiating for. If there were no such thing as a minimum wage, you could negotiate based on market value of labor.

We don't know how free market forces would have worked the past 82 years... Sure, children and women were exploited back in 1912... Sure, people were struggling in 1933... but had we taken a different road, one that encouraged free market capitalism instead of trying to regulate it... we may have experienced a different result. It might be that today, an average worker negotiates $15 hr. for a burger flipper job because no one else wants to flip burgers? It might mean the value of the dollar never declined and $5 hr. buys as much as $15 today? We just don't know because we didn't take that road.

Why did u start your post with the phrase "most liberals"? That makes them harden their stance. Make your case w/o the name calling. Hell, make your idea sound like their idea.
 
Most liberals don't understand this because they don't really grasp the principles of free market capitalism. They react emotively and without thinking about consequences of what their emotions drive them to do. And when you're dealing with free market capitalism, this can be very costly because you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Such is the case with our beloved minimum wage.

Oh sure, it has been considered a wonderful idea through all the years... helped the poor exploited worker be treated at least half-way decently... but it has also produced a society full of idiots who don't comprehend how it has damaged the individual's ability to prosper. It's a big giant ball and chain on our ability to negotiate. In order to understand this, you must understand how the principles of free market capitalism (supply and demand) operate.

As I said, the toothpaste is out already, can't put it back now... So I am not suggesting we should get rid of the minimum wage at this time. Various reasons for that but it all goes back to the toothpaste already being out of the tube... we've already established a free market system around this baseline labor cost, any change now would be somewhat detrimental to a lot of people. The better idea at this point is to leave it alone and focus on making it irrelevant. Raising it is stupid and pointless because all you're ultimately doing is decreasing the value of a dollar.

But now... Let's go back to 1912, when this issue was first being debated. The First Progressive Movement was hell bent on establishing a minimum wage, at that time, for women and children. They tried numerous times to do this and kept running into failure because the Supreme Court continued to rule the minimum wage unconstitutional. This went on for over 20 years in the first part of the 20th century. So when we get to the Great Depression, FDR takes this opportunity to implement a national minimum wage. He says, and I quote:

"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

Now...... THAT sounds very familiar, doesn't it? ....Where have I heard THAT recently? Can it not be clearer that this abysmal liberal policy has FAILED? Here we are, 82 years later and the same Progressives are screaming the same thing! The dollar amount is all that is different.

Same argument, same idea, same solution that hasn't worked in 82 years. But it's all about emotion, you see?

Okay, follow me here... think about, what if.... What IF we had not adopted a MW and instead, we promoted individual and collective bargaining? We could have established anti-trust laws where employers had to 'reasonably negotiate' with prospective employees on the specific job available. Of course, we have to understand there were "corporatists" back then who didn't want that to happen. They went along with this "minimum wage" idea because it effectively base-lined labor costs. Think about it for a hot second...

Every wage in America, whether you belong to a union or not, is pretty much determined in relation to the current minimum wage. If that goes up, so do all the wages up the ladder because that is their base line. As long as the minimum wage remains where it is, the motivation for the capitalist is to keep wages the same. so we've stagnated wealth acquisition by base-lining labor cost. You can't negotiate a higher wage because the wage is set according to the minimum you've set. Raising the minimum doesn't help you negotiate, it eliminates the job you're negotiating for. If there were no such thing as a minimum wage, you could negotiate based on market value of labor.

We don't know how free market forces would have worked the past 82 years... Sure, children and women were exploited back in 1912... Sure, people were struggling in 1933... but had we taken a different road, one that encouraged free market capitalism instead of trying to regulate it... we may have experienced a different result. It might be that today, an average worker negotiates $15 hr. for a burger flipper job because no one else wants to flip burgers? It might mean the value of the dollar never declined and $5 hr. buys as much as $15 today? We just don't know because we didn't take that road.

Why did u start your post with the phrase "most liberals"? That makes them harden their stance. Make your case w/o the name calling. Hell, make your idea sound like their idea.

Harden their stance? What do you think I am here to fluff liberals? :FIREdevil:
 
Why did you start your post with the phrase "most liberals"? That makes them harden their stance.

In fact, most liberals are very very stupid and proud of it so it does no harm to point it out and may even help given that being stupid is not a universal positive yet..
 
Stick with a minimum wage job and often times opportunity for advancement will present itself.
Many people have risen through the ranks this way.

That's a great point but the thread OP isn't really about that. Think of a world where "minimum wage" never existed? Think of all the types of arrangements which could be made between parties? Maybe I offer an inexperienced laborer and opportunity to train for 90 days at a pay rate of $40 a day... if he completes the training, he is hired as skilled labor making $20 hr. Or maybe I have a job that not many people want to do. When I offer to pay $7.50 hr., people laugh at me... you gotta be kidding, Boss... no way! So not having some arbitrary "baseline" to price labor, I might pay $10hr.. or $15hr. Eventually, I will offer an amount that is attractive to someone who doesn't mind the job. That's how free market systems work.

As it stands, no need for me to offer more... it's a shit job that pays shit wages because the price of labor is baselined. The corporatist has been given a free pass here... you've set up an artificial parameter they can exploit to their advantage by not increasing wages because they can always point to the minimum wage, which their pay scales are based upon. Basically, we've screwed ourselves out of being to negotiate in a free market way for the use of our labor. There could be jobs you wouldn't mind doing for $2 an hr., just so you can get experience. If you're okay with that and they are okay with it, why shouldn't you be able to negotiate it? Well, you can't now because of minimum wage.
Hmmm,
I am not sure no minimum is a good idea, by what I've seen in other countries : Colombia, Brazil, Mexico , Nicaragua, low wages are a death trap: it provokes informal employment, it separates consumers from producers and leads to market stagnation.
This is specially true when the mayor employers have monopolic or oligopolic power.

I can see how a small start up can benefit from a lack of minimum wage... so maybe that should be introduced as an exception.

But, from a situation like that of the US in the early 1900 , I think it would have been a terrible mistake. In my opinion , once the companies have enough capital goods and therefore productivity rises, a high minimum wage allows internal markets to expand.

The trap : wages are so low and labour so abundant , that the national strategy is not investing in capital goods and human capital, but to keep wages depressed. Yes , in the long run ( decades ) this backfires, you get an increase in violence or even a revolution.

Digital History
 
I support increasing the minimum wage. Some people who make minimum wage STILL have to collect taxpayer funded benefits. Meanwhile, the employers get off scot free, and we taxpayers have to pick up the slack for these cheap bastards.
 
Stick with a minimum wage job and often times opportunity for advancement will present itself.
Many people have risen through the ranks this way.

That's a great point but the thread OP isn't really about that. Think of a world where "minimum wage" never existed? Think of all the types of arrangements which could be made between parties? Maybe I offer an inexperienced laborer and opportunity to train for 90 days at a pay rate of $40 a day... if he completes the training, he is hired as skilled labor making $20 hr. Or maybe I have a job that not many people want to do. When I offer to pay $7.50 hr., people laugh at me... you gotta be kidding, Boss... no way! So not having some arbitrary "baseline" to price labor, I might pay $10hr.. or $15hr. Eventually, I will offer an amount that is attractive to someone who doesn't mind the job. That's how free market systems work.

As it stands, no need for me to offer more... it's a shit job that pays shit wages because the price of labor is baselined. The corporatist has been given a free pass here... you've set up an artificial parameter they can exploit to their advantage by not increasing wages because they can always point to the minimum wage, which their pay scales are based upon. Basically, we've screwed ourselves out of being to negotiate in a free market way for the use of our labor. There could be jobs you wouldn't mind doing for $2 an hr., just so you can get experience. If you're okay with that and they are okay with it, why shouldn't you be able to negotiate it? Well, you can't now because of minimum wage.
When there was no minimum wage in the industrial era, wages were shit wages and working hours were long, people barely made enough to pay for basic necessities.Have you never studied sociology on the pre-modern industrial age?

Yes, I understand that... AND... We assume the minimum wage was beneficial in solving a problem. But we see that it didn't solve the problem, the same exact argument FDR made is still being made today:

"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

What we actually did was create an artificial government override on free market capitalist principles of supply and demand. It made us feel good and when we first did it, seemed to help a little... but everything has a consequence and all that happened was the prices of things rose to adjust and we're back in the same boat until government intervenes again to raise the minimum wage.

Now what happens is, it takes years to get government to raise the minimum wage. Mainly because corporatists own the politicians and they don't want that to happen. But in the meantime, you have no leverage to negotiate, you've ceded that to the government and an established base line on labor cost. And there is another reason the government can't constantly be raising the minimum wage, it simply can't keep on going up indefinitely. If we tried to adjust minimum wage every year to keep up with inflation and cost of living, the minimum wage might be $30 hr. now and that's about what you'd be paying for a gallon of milk and loaf of bread.

So, the minimum wage has not worked as FDR intended, to resolve the problem he stated it would. We still have Democrat politicians yammering the very same mantra today! But what it HAS done is stabilize labor cost across the board and baselined that cost for every employer. Labor is no longer priced by forces of supply and demand, it is baselined on the established minimum wage set by government. In other words, I can no longer establish the minimum my labor is worth, it is already pre-set for me.

Yo, I see your point, but? It`s to late now!

"GTP"
 
You think employers should pay more than they can earn on an employee? °Sure, let's all make the same wage, as long as it is a living wage. God forbid it forces prices higher and wipes out any benefit to the employee, and incentive for anyone to better themselves.
I support increasing the minimum wage. Some people who make minimum wage STILL have to collect taxpayer funded benefits. Meanwhile, the employers get off scot free, and we taxpayers have to pick up the slack for these cheap bastards.
 
Most liberals don't understand this because they don't really grasp the principles of free market capitalism. They react emotively and without thinking about consequences of what their emotions drive them to do. And when you're dealing with free market capitalism, this can be very costly because you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. Such is the case with our beloved minimum wage.

Oh sure, it has been considered a wonderful idea through all the years... helped the poor exploited worker be treated at least half-way decently... but it has also produced a society full of idiots who don't comprehend how it has damaged the individual's ability to prosper. It's a big giant ball and chain on our ability to negotiate. In order to understand this, you must understand how the principles of free market capitalism (supply and demand) operate.

As I said, the toothpaste is out already, can't put it back now... So I am not suggesting we should get rid of the minimum wage at this time. Various reasons for that but it all goes back to the toothpaste already being out of the tube... we've already established a free market system around this baseline labor cost, any change now would be somewhat detrimental to a lot of people. The better idea at this point is to leave it alone and focus on making it irrelevant. Raising it is stupid and pointless because all you're ultimately doing is decreasing the value of a dollar.

But now... Let's go back to 1912, when this issue was first being debated. The First Progressive Movement was hell bent on establishing a minimum wage, at that time, for women and children. They tried numerous times to do this and kept running into failure because the Supreme Court continued to rule the minimum wage unconstitutional. This went on for over 20 years in the first part of the 20th century. So when we get to the Great Depression, FDR takes this opportunity to implement a national minimum wage. He says, and I quote:

"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

Now...... THAT sounds very familiar, doesn't it? ....Where have I heard THAT recently? Can it not be clearer that this abysmal liberal policy has FAILED? Here we are, 82 years later and the same Progressives are screaming the same thing! The dollar amount is all that is different.

Same argument, same idea, same solution that hasn't worked in 82 years. But it's all about emotion, you see?

Okay, follow me here... think about, what if.... What IF we had not adopted a MW and instead, we promoted individual and collective bargaining? We could have established anti-trust laws where employers had to 'reasonably negotiate' with prospective employees on the specific job available. Of course, we have to understand there were "corporatists" back then who didn't want that to happen. They went along with this "minimum wage" idea because it effectively base-lined labor costs. Think about it for a hot second...

Every wage in America, whether you belong to a union or not, is pretty much determined in relation to the current minimum wage. If that goes up, so do all the wages up the ladder because that is their base line. As long as the minimum wage remains where it is, the motivation for the capitalist is to keep wages the same. so we've stagnated wealth acquisition by base-lining labor cost. You can't negotiate a higher wage because the wage is set according to the minimum you've set. Raising the minimum doesn't help you negotiate, it eliminates the job you're negotiating for. If there were no such thing as a minimum wage, you could negotiate based on market value of labor.

We don't know how free market forces would have worked the past 82 years... Sure, children and women were exploited back in 1912... Sure, people were struggling in 1933... but had we taken a different road, one that encouraged free market capitalism instead of trying to regulate it... we may have experienced a different result. It might be that today, an average worker negotiates $15 hr. for a burger flipper job because no one else wants to flip burgers? It might mean the value of the dollar never declined and $5 hr. buys as much as $15 today? We just don't know because we didn't take that road.



Why do CONS/Republicans always accuse the intelligent, accomplished people of promoting a left wing agenda? You can't expect them to promote the agenda purported by the"Stupid Party"!





The Most Rigorous Research Shows Minimum Wage Increases Do Not Reduce Employment


The opinion of the economics profession on the impact of the minimum wage has shifted significantly over the past fifteen years. Today, the most rigorous research shows little evidence of job reductions from a higher minimum wage. Indicative is a 2013 survey by the University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business in which leading economists agreed by a nearly 4 to 1 margin that the benefits of raising and indexing the minimum wage outweigh the costs.

The Job Loss Myth


Republican reasoning: Bush tax cuts created jobs through trickle down economics, but raising the minimum wage will surely destroy the economy. You can't make this stuff up.




Companies supposedly compete for people in a capitalist system, at least they used to. All this complaining you hear from companies saying they can't find "qualified" people is just a smoke and mirrors way of saying that they can't get the same people they got 10 years ago to rehire in for what they were making 10 years ago. If there were no minimum wage, believe me, it would be a race to the bottom. It isn't that people have no self worth, it is that any business owner as a rule will pay the least amount possible and that is why it was decided to set a minimum wage. Most states have their own minimum wages which, in a lot of cases, are higher than the federal minimum wage.
 
Stick with a minimum wage job and often times opportunity for advancement will present itself.
Many people have risen through the ranks this way.

That's a great point but the thread OP isn't really about that. Think of a world where "minimum wage" never existed? Think of all the types of arrangements which could be made between parties? Maybe I offer an inexperienced laborer and opportunity to train for 90 days at a pay rate of $40 a day... if he completes the training, he is hired as skilled labor making $20 hr. Or maybe I have a job that not many people want to do. When I offer to pay $7.50 hr., people laugh at me... you gotta be kidding, Boss... no way! So not having some arbitrary "baseline" to price labor, I might pay $10hr.. or $15hr. Eventually, I will offer an amount that is attractive to someone who doesn't mind the job. That's how free market systems work.

As it stands, no need for me to offer more... it's a shit job that pays shit wages because the price of labor is baselined. The corporatist has been given a free pass here... you've set up an artificial parameter they can exploit to their advantage by not increasing wages because they can always point to the minimum wage, which their pay scales are based upon. Basically, we've screwed ourselves out of being to negotiate in a free market way for the use of our labor. There could be jobs you wouldn't mind doing for $2 an hr., just so you can get experience. If you're okay with that and they are okay with it, why shouldn't you be able to negotiate it? Well, you can't now because of minimum wage.
When there was no minimum wage in the industrial era, wages were shit wages and working hours were long, people barely made enough to pay for basic necessities.Have you never studied sociology on the pre-modern industrial age?

Yes, I understand that... AND... We assume the minimum wage was beneficial in solving a problem. But we see that it didn't solve the problem, the same exact argument FDR made is still being made today:

"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

What we actually did was create an artificial government override on free market capitalist principles of supply and demand. It made us feel good and when we first did it, seemed to help a little... but everything has a consequence and all that happened was the prices of things rose to adjust and we're back in the same boat until government intervenes again to raise the minimum wage.

Now what happens is, it takes years to get government to raise the minimum wage. Mainly because corporatists own the politicians and they don't want that to happen. But in the meantime, you have no leverage to negotiate, you've ceded that to the government and an established base line on labor cost. And there is another reason the government can't constantly be raising the minimum wage, it simply can't keep on going up indefinitely. If we tried to adjust minimum wage every year to keep up with inflation and cost of living, the minimum wage might be $30 hr. now and that's about what you'd be paying for a gallon of milk and loaf of bread.

So, the minimum wage has not worked as FDR intended, to resolve the problem he stated it would. We still have Democrat politicians yammering the very same mantra today! But what it HAS done is stabilize labor cost across the board and baselined that cost for every employer. Labor is no longer priced by forces of supply and demand, it is baselined on the established minimum wage set by government. In other words, I can no longer establish the minimum my labor is worth, it is already pre-set for me.

THEY SET A FLOOR, NOT A CEILING DUMMY!







"It is but equity...that they who feed, clothe and lodge the whole body of the people, should have such a share of the produce of their own labor as to be themselves tolerably well fed, clothed and lodged."-Adam Smith, The Wealth of Nations, 1776
 

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