Morality of Wealth Redistribution

[JoeB131]

[


It's called PROGRESSIVE TAXATION!!!


Poor Americans Pay Double The State, Local Tax Rates Of Top One Percent

Total U.S. taxes are barely progressive, as shown in this table and chart from Citizens for Tax Justice. The bottom 99 percent pays a 27.5 percent total tax rate on average, while the top 1 percent pays an average 29 percent tax rate, according to 2011 data from Citizens for Tax Justice.


Poor Americans Pay Double The State, Local Tax Rates Of Top One Percent

The share of total taxes paid by each income group is similar to that group’s share of total income.

• The share of total taxes paid by the richest one percent (21.6 percent) is almost identical to that group’s share of total income (21.0 percent).

• The total effective tax rate for the richest one percent (29.0 percent) is only about four percentage points higher than the total effective tax rate for the middle fifth of taxpayers (25.2 percent)

Who Pays Taxes in America? | CTJReports

"The only orthodox object of the institution of government is to secure the greatest degree of happiness possible to the general mass of those associated under it."

Thomas Jefferson

Awesome Charts

 

[boedicca]

Doesn't seem like anyone is interested in the moral justifications, despite the claimed topic of the thread.

Libturds like Dad2Three certainly aren't interested in providing a moral justification for their schemes to plunder the money people have earned. That's because they know there is no moral justification. Plain greed in envy is the motivation. There's no way to put a sugar coating on that.

What the hell do you think a tax is?

WALTON FAMILY IS WORTH AS MUCH AS THE BOTTOM 40% OF US. Earned? lol

Do you know the difference between income and wealth?

 

[boedicca]

If the Progs in this thread could read for comprehension and retention, the might learn something from this:

A Tax Fable

Suppose that everyday 10 men go to PJ's for lunch. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If it were paid the way we pay our taxes, the first four men would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1; the sixth would pay $3; the seventh $7; the eighth $12; the ninth $18. The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59. The 10 men ate lunch in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." Now lunch for the 10 would costs only $80. The first four are unaffected. They still eat for free. Can you figure out how to divvy up the $20 savings between the remaining six so that everyone gets his fair share?

The men realize that $20 divided by 6 is $3.33, but if they subtract that from everybody's share, then the fifth and the sixth man would end up being paid to eat their meal. The restaurant owner suggested that it would be only fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount that each paid and he started to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of $59. Outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man pointing to the tenth, "and he got $7!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!"

"That's true," shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks."

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor."

The nine men surrounded the tenth man and beat him up. The next day he didn't show up for lunch, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important: They were $52 short!

And that, boys and girls and college instructors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. There are lots of good restaurants in Switzerland and the Caribbean.

A Tax Fable

 

[Dad2three]

Explain to me you retarded son of bitch why Cubans will come to the USA on anything that floats.

.

Tell me why Calif has the most millionaires AND billionaire and the highest taxes on the 'job creators'?

Because Jerry and the marxists live there and parasites constitute 47-50% of the electorate.

.

Weird, conservative theory says those guys should be in Texas? What happened?

 

[boedicca]

Texas is gaining on California.

California cities once led the nation in urban population growth, but sharp declines in migration and birthrates have slowed the state's human expansion to well under 1 percent a year, a third of what was happening during the go-go 1980s.

Now, a new Census Bureau report indicates, rapid growth – for better or worse – has shifted to other states.

The nation's five fastest growing cities over 50,000 population in the year ending July 1, 2013, were in Texas and Utah and Texas also had four other cities in the top 15.

San Marcos, Texas, led the nation in municipal growth at 8 percent during the year, followed by Frisco City, Texas, a suburb of Dallas.

The Dallas suburbs have become a major destination for movement of corporate headquarters, including, it was announced recently, Toyota's U.S. headquarters from Southern California. Smaller Texas cities, meanwhile, are enjoying an oil boom....

Capitol Alert: High population growth shifts from California to other states

 

[Dad2three]

Libturds like Dad2Three certainly aren't interested in providing a moral justification for their schemes to plunder the money people have earned. That's because they know there is no moral justification. Plain greed in envy is the motivation. There's no way to put a sugar coating on that.

What the hell do you think a tax is?

WALTON FAMILY IS WORTH AS MUCH AS THE BOTTOM 40% OF US. Earned? lol

Do you know the difference between income and wealth?

Sure, 1945-1980 the top 1% received 6%-9% of the INCOME by 2007 they TOOK 23% of the pie. See?

80% of the population owns 5% of the wealth.

Who Rules America: Wealth, Income, and Power

The middle class has been eviscerated.

 

[boedicca]

Gee, the middle class has been eviscerated as Government has gotten Bigger and Bigger.

The connection will elude you, no doubt.

 

[Dad2three]

Texas is gaining on California.

California cities once led the nation in urban population growth, but sharp declines in migration and birthrates have slowed the state's human expansion to well under 1 percent a year, a third of what was happening during the go-go 1980s.

Now, a new Census Bureau report indicates, rapid growth – for better or worse – has shifted to other states.

The nation's five fastest growing cities over 50,000 population in the year ending July 1, 2013, were in Texas and Utah and Texas also had four other cities in the top 15.

San Marcos, Texas, led the nation in municipal growth at 8 percent during the year, followed by Frisco City, Texas, a suburb of Dallas.

The Dallas suburbs have become a major destination for movement of corporate headquarters, including, it was announced recently, Toyota's U.S. headquarters from Southern California. Smaller Texas cities, meanwhile, are enjoying an oil boom....

Capitol Alert: High population growth shifts from California to other states

Sure, low paying jobs where the burden is shifted to those that can least afford it! Conservatives paradise. Weird how Cali has so many millionaires and billionaires right?

 

[Dad2three]

Gee, the middle class has been eviscerated as Government has gotten Bigger and Bigger.

The connection will elude you, no doubt.

Sure that's what it was *shaking head*

Reaganomics killed America’s middle class

This country's fate was sealed when our government slashed taxes on the rich back in 1980


There’s nothing “normal” about having a middle class. Having a middle class is a choice that a society has to make, and it’s a choice we need to make again in this generation, if we want to stop the destruction of the remnants of the last generation’s middle class.


Reaganomics killed America?s middle class - Salon.com



Third World countries. One of the things they all had in common was a small, very rich elite, small middle class, and a large lower class. They also shared very low economic growth as a result. This has been known for at least 50 years. The US has been going in this direction for at least the last 30 years as we have gradually de-industrialized and government policies (such as trickle down economics, 'free trade', etc ) have promoted the shift of wealth from the lower and middle classes to the economic elite

 

[bripat9643]

False premises, distortions and LIES the ONLY thing right wingers EVER have. I'm shocked

Explain to me you retarded son of bitch why Cubans will come to the USA on anything that floats.

.

Tell me why Calif has the most millionaires AND billionaire and the highest taxes on the 'job creators'?

Because the climate and natural beauty of California make it the most desirable place to live in the U.S. millionaires and billionaires can afford to live wherever they want to live. Cost isn't an obstacle. It's the middle class that can't afford California any longer. And businesses can't afford it either.

 

[Dad2three]

If the Progs in this thread could read for comprehension and retention, the might learn something from this:

A Tax Fable

Suppose that everyday 10 men go to PJ's for lunch. The bill for all ten comes to $100. If it were paid the way we pay our taxes, the first four men would pay nothing; the fifth would pay $1; the sixth would pay $3; the seventh $7; the eighth $12; the ninth $18. The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59. The 10 men ate lunch in the restaurant every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement until the owner threw them a curve.

"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily meal by $20." Now lunch for the 10 would costs only $80. The first four are unaffected. They still eat for free. Can you figure out how to divvy up the $20 savings between the remaining six so that everyone gets his fair share?

The men realize that $20 divided by 6 is $3.33, but if they subtract that from everybody's share, then the fifth and the sixth man would end up being paid to eat their meal. The restaurant owner suggested that it would be only fair to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount that each paid and he started to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so the fifth man paid nothing, the sixth pitched in $2, the seventh paid $5, the eighth paid $9, the ninth paid $12, leaving the tenth man with a bill of $52 instead of $59. Outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20," declared the sixth man pointing to the tenth, "and he got $7!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar, too. It's unfair that he got seven times more than me!"

"That's true," shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $7 back when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks."

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor."

The nine men surrounded the tenth man and beat him up. The next day he didn't show up for lunch, so the nine sat down and ate without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important: They were $52 short!

And that, boys and girls and college instructors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up at the table anymore. There are lots of good restaurants in Switzerland and the Caribbean.

A Tax Fable

A FABLE. Please pull a Galt, pretty please? lol

 

[Listening]

Gee, the middle class has been eviscerated as Government has gotten Bigger and Bigger.

The connection will elude you, no doubt.

Sure that's what it was *shaking head*

Reaganomics killed America’s middle class

This country's fate was sealed when our government slashed taxes on the rich back in 1980


There’s nothing “normal” about having a middle class. Having a middle class is a choice that a society has to make, and it’s a choice we need to make again in this generation, if we want to stop the destruction of the remnants of the last generation’s middle class.


Reaganomics killed America?s middle class - Salon.com



Third World countries. One of the things they all had in common was a small, very rich elite, small middle class, and a large lower class. They also shared very low economic growth as a result. This has been known for at least 50 years. The US has been going in this direction for at least the last 30 years as we have gradually de-industrialized and government policies (such as trickle down economics, 'free trade', etc ) have promoted the shift of wealth from the lower and middle classes to the economic elite

Salon ????

 

[Dad2three]

Explain to me you retarded son of bitch why Cubans will come to the USA on anything that floats.

.

Tell me why Calif has the most millionaires AND billionaire and the highest taxes on the 'job creators'?

Because the climate and natural beauty of California make it the most desirable place to live in the U.S. millionaires and billionaires can afford to live wherever they want to live. Cost isn't an obstacle. It's the middle class that can't afford California any longer. And businesses can't afford it either.

Partially true, weird how Texas taxes the working MUCH more than Cali right?

And Biz AREN'T fleeing my wonderful state, despite decades of right wing myths saying they are

 

[Dad2three]

Gee, the middle class has been eviscerated as Government has gotten Bigger and Bigger.

The connection will elude you, no doubt.

Sure that's what it was *shaking head*

Reaganomics killed America’s middle class

This country's fate was sealed when our government slashed taxes on the rich back in 1980


There’s nothing “normal” about having a middle class. Having a middle class is a choice that a society has to make, and it’s a choice we need to make again in this generation, if we want to stop the destruction of the remnants of the last generation’s middle class.


Reaganomics killed America?s middle class - Salon.com



Third World countries. One of the things they all had in common was a small, very rich elite, small middle class, and a large lower class. They also shared very low economic growth as a result. This has been known for at least 50 years. The US has been going in this direction for at least the last 30 years as we have gradually de-industrialized and government policies (such as trickle down economics, 'free trade', etc ) have promoted the shift of wealth from the lower and middle classes to the economic elite

Salon ????

Ad hom? You can't actually use reason and logic? Oh right, a conservative...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

If you really believe that you have been effectively brainwashed by the millionaire propagandists who serve the interests of the One Percent.

Nope! As a business consultant with an MBA with a major in economics I came to that conclusion on my own. In researching the issue with other economists and their studies it was determined that my conclusion was correct.Wealth is not a zero sum issue as increased production increases total wealth.

Real wealth is finite. It represents the material, administrative, and the human (citizen) resources of this Nation. To suggest these resources are limitless is plainly ignorant.

The wealth in one second of time can be deemed finite. In the next instant in time it may grow or decrease, depending on the business cycle. I have not suggested our physical resources are infinite, but their VALUE DEFINITELY INCREASES DEPENDING ON HOW WE EXPLOIT THOSE PHYSICAL RESOURCES. In so far as human resources are concerned, that is based on the total production of those human resources plus the improved production of automation. It is ignorant to believe otherwise or listen to the left wing extremist propaganda which tries to convince the sheeple that the rich are taking away part of the wealth they are due.

Got it, AGAIN you'll not argue the posit, but instead go off on a tangent

Wealth is a Zero-Sum Game

Conservative damagogues like Limbaugh have been able to convince the public that the huge incomes of the wealthiest Americans are irrelevant to those who make moderate-to-low incomes. They even suggest that the more money the wealthiest Americans make, the more wealth will trickle down to the lower classes.

If you've swallowed this line of conservative garbage, get ready to vomit. As all conservative economists know, and deny to the public that they know, wealth is a zero-sum game. That is true at both the front end—when income is divided up, and the back end—when it is spent.

The Front End of Zero-Sum: Dividing the Loot

There is only so much corporate income in a given year. The more of that income that is used to pay workers, the less profit the corporation makes. The less profit, the less the stock goes up. The less the stock goes up, the less the CEO and the investors make. It’s as simple as that. Profit equals income minus expenses. No more, no less. Subtract the right side of the equation from the left side and the answer is always zero. Hence the term, “zero-sum.”

So, to the extent a corporation can keep from sharing the wealth with workers—the ones who created the wealth to begin with—investors and executives get a bigger slice of the income pie and become richer.

To understand this aspect of the zero-sum nature of wealth, and the way many people get rich—that is, besides selling-out our workers to Third World countries—consider how Gates, Eisner, and Welch Jr. did it. It’s no mystery, and it isn’t all that hard to do.

Although the following specific details are fictional, the scenario is accurate. Through their emissaries, Mr. Bill Gates (CEO of Micro- soft), met with Michael Eisner (CEO of Walt Disney Corp.), and John Welch Jr. (CEO of General Electric). Their discussion went like this:

Gates: “Gentlemen, you astute, wise, talented, outstanding, and morally principled managers of today—I can sell you something that cost me $10 per unit to produce for $400 each. It’s a little disk with a bunch of zeros and ones on it.”

Eisner and Welch Jr., in unison: “Why in the hell would we be stupid enough to do something like that?”

Gates: “Simple. It will enable your secretaries to produce twice as much work in half the time. In other words, you can fire half your secretaries—those who helped make your organizations successful in the first place. And the secretaries who remain will still work the same hours for the same pay. You will cut your labor costs in half, the stock of your companies will skyrocket and your grateful shareholders will reward your managerial brilliance by making you incredibly, fabulously rich. Not like me, of course, but pretty damn rich.

“Here’s another wrinkle you’ll love. When your companies start growing again, Disney will hire the experienced secretaries that GE fired, and GE will hire the secretaries that Disney fired. Since they are new employees, they’ll start out at base pay, which has hardly budged for the past 20 years—and with no benefits. Times are tough for secretaries these days, you know, with the corporate downsizing and all.

“Oh yes, with Republicans in control of Congress and Clinton ap-pointing conservative judges to the courts, you can work your secretaries’ asses off, and you don’t have to worry about them getting carpal tunnel syndrome and suing you.”

The Zero-sum Nature of economics

Wealth is a Zero-Sum Game

That's why wealth never increases. Oh, wait.......

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What???

Can someone here advocating "wealth redistribution" provide moral justification for taking money away from people simply because we think they've accumulated too much?

None of them have even tried.

Mainly because the vast majority of the uber wealthy haven't earned it.

Additionally when wealth translates into power? Concentrating it in to the hands of the very few is a ridiculously bad idea.

Of the most current Forbes 400, which ones haven't earned it?

 

[M.D. Rawlings]

Come on shitstain, let's compare private ownership of homes and automobiles....that is an economic sign of upward mobility.

FYI...most Europeans don't own a car or a home.

Riding public transportation and living in an apartment is the average European's life.

For a guy with a degree, YOU sure act funny to scientific data

Really dumbfuk? Owning houses is a sign of upward mobility? lol


How'd that work out for Dubya?

You can say "tax cuts create jobs" but that's just blather. Show me when it has worked and then we'll talk

It's not a secrete. It's not a mystery. The facts from the 60's, the 80's and the 90's, especially, are well known. Indeed, the dynamics are intuitively self-evident. I wouldn't waste my time showing jack to some jackass who denies the facts of economic realty, which he may readily confirm for himself, but for the fact that they don't jive with his mindless, willfully ignorant, zero-sum-gain ideology of tax and oppress.

Carry on. . . .

 

[Listening]

Sure that's what it was *shaking head*

Reaganomics killed America’s middle class

This country's fate was sealed when our government slashed taxes on the rich back in 1980


There’s nothing “normal” about having a middle class. Having a middle class is a choice that a society has to make, and it’s a choice we need to make again in this generation, if we want to stop the destruction of the remnants of the last generation’s middle class.


Reaganomics killed America?s middle class - Salon.com



Third World countries. One of the things they all had in common was a small, very rich elite, small middle class, and a large lower class. They also shared very low economic growth as a result. This has been known for at least 50 years. The US has been going in this direction for at least the last 30 years as we have gradually de-industrialized and government policies (such as trickle down economics, 'free trade', etc ) have promoted the shift of wealth from the lower and middle classes to the economic elite

Salon ????

Ad hom? You can't actually use reason and logic? Oh right, a conservative...

Reason and Logic...???? When discussing a Salon article that sets it's own standards and provides no data.

Oh, you are too too funny.

 

[Listening]

None of them have even tried.

Mainly because the vast majority of the uber wealthy haven't earned it.

Additionally when wealth translates into power? Concentrating it in to the hands of the very few is a ridiculously bad idea.

Of the most current Forbes 400, which ones haven't earned it?

The ones who don't support Shallow's poltical desires.

 

[dblack]

What???

Can someone here advocating "wealth redistribution" provide moral justification for taking money away from people simply because we think they've accumulated too much?

None of them have even tried.

Mainly because the vast majority of the uber wealthy haven't earned it.

Additionally when wealth translates into power? Concentrating it in to the hands of the very few is a ridiculously bad idea.

Thank you, seriously, for actually addressing the topic. This helps us to get somewhere.

For what it's worth, I agree with you - to an extent. I'm not sure it's a 'vast majority', or even a majority, but certainly some (too many, in any case) of the uber wealthy aren't honestly earning the wealth they acquire. And government should put a stop to it. That's one of the most important functions of government.

But simply assuming that everyone making a lot of money is cheating doesn't really make a lot of sense. Even if we ignore the basic injustice of guilty-until-proven-innocent thinking, it's just not smart. People who are earning lots of money honestly are providing us with things we want and need. We want those people to have lots of economic power because they're doing good things with it.

If progressives want to do something about economic corruption, they'll find ready allies among libertarians and conservatives by going after collusion and fraud. Wouldn't that make more sense than indulging a stereotype that throws the baby out with the bathwater?