More lefties learn the glory of the 15 dollar minimum wage....unemployment.....

[hadit]

Not yet, we'll see.

Again their customer base is low income. Increasing min wage increases sales. Unemploying people with machines is untested and decreases sales.

Lower prices increase sales. Higher prices decrease sales. When machines cost less to do a job than people do, prices go down. Low income people do what when prices go up? What do they do when prices go down? For the answer, ask yourself this. Where do low income people shop for clothes, Macy's or Wal-Mart?

If prices would go down and it was feasible they would be using machines now. They however don't.

The technology is new and will come down in price. Make humans too expensive, and the process will accelerate.

That has probably been said with every min wage increase. Hasnt happened though.

It has been happening, just at a slow enough pace that you haven't noticed.

1. Teenagers used to pump your gas as well as check your oil and water levels and tire pressure at the gas station. Now, you do all that yourself and there is one person working the register inside. I've used totally unattended gas stations. Automation at work.
2. The next time you're in a supermarket, take a look at the checkout lines. See that cluster of kiosks at the end, supervised by ONE employee? Every kiosk replaces a cashier at a register. Their role will expand, the traditional cashier's will shrink. Automation at work.
3. It wasn't terribly long ago that a man could make a career out of bolting and welding car parts together on an assembly line. Remember all that complaining about manufacturing jobs disappearing from the US? They're not all going overseas, many of them have been replaced by robots that do a better job, cheaper. Automation at work.

Don't tell me jobs are not being replaced by automation because of economics.

 

[hadit]

Lower prices increase sales. Higher prices decrease sales. When machines cost less to do a job than people do, prices go down. Low income people do what when prices go up? What do they do when prices go down? For the answer, ask yourself this. Where do low income people shop for clothes, Macy's or Wal-Mart?

If prices would go down and it was feasible they would be using machines now. They however don't.

The technology is new and will come down in price. Make humans too expensive, and the process will accelerate.

Man, any excuse eh? The labor is 23% cheaper than it was in 1968 , do you get that?

Economics is not the only factor at play here, but it is the ultimate force that pushes companies to make decisions. If your business model is fast and cheap, you'll replace humans with machines at every opportunity. Notice that you don't have to have a cashier ring up your purchases in the supermarket if you don't want to?

Yes and notice that Wal Mart did that without a min wage increase ?

It's a stupid argument . Regardless of the min wage when burger machines are feasible they will be here. Who cares? Because minimum wage jobs will ALWAYS exist. ALWAYS. And so the min wage should reflect the reality not some what if scenario. The reality is NO ONE could support themselves on $7.25 an hour. Why you are happy to let the taxpayer pick up the slack is beyond me.

Of course they didn't need a MW increase to do it. They did it because it's ALREADY cheaper than human cashiers. Raise the MW, however, and MORE jobs will become cheaper to do with machines. MW jobs are simply not intended for someone to support themselves. Why you would think that is incomprehensible. They are intended to be a young person's foot in the door of the job market, a way for someone to gain work experience and job skills.

 

[Brain357]

Again their customer base is low income. Increasing min wage increases sales. Unemploying people with machines is untested and decreases sales.

Lower prices increase sales. Higher prices decrease sales. When machines cost less to do a job than people do, prices go down. Low income people do what when prices go up? What do they do when prices go down? For the answer, ask yourself this. Where do low income people shop for clothes, Macy's or Wal-Mart?

If prices would go down and it was feasible they would be using machines now. They however don't.

The technology is new and will come down in price. Make humans too expensive, and the process will accelerate.

That has probably been said with every min wage increase. Hasnt happened though.

It has been happening, just at a slow enough pace that you haven't noticed.

1. Teenagers used to pump your gas as well as check your oil and water levels and tire pressure at the gas station. Now, you do all that yourself and there is one person working the register inside. I've used totally unattended gas stations. Automation at work.
2. The next time you're in a supermarket, take a look at the checkout lines. See that cluster of kiosks at the end, supervised by ONE employee? Every kiosk replaces a cashier at a register. Their role will expand, the traditional cashier's will shrink. Automation at work.
3. It wasn't terribly long ago that a man could make a career out of bolting and welding car parts together on an assembly line. Remember all that complaining about manufacturing jobs disappearing from the US? They're not all going overseas, many of them have been replaced by robots that do a better job, cheaper. Automation at work.

Don't tell me jobs are not being replaced by automation because of economics.

And we still have plenty of min wage jobs.

 

[Brain357]

If prices would go down and it was feasible they would be using machines now. They however don't.

The technology is new and will come down in price. Make humans too expensive, and the process will accelerate.

Man, any excuse eh? The labor is 23% cheaper than it was in 1968 , do you get that?

Economics is not the only factor at play here, but it is the ultimate force that pushes companies to make decisions. If your business model is fast and cheap, you'll replace humans with machines at every opportunity. Notice that you don't have to have a cashier ring up your purchases in the supermarket if you don't want to?

Yes and notice that Wal Mart did that without a min wage increase ?

It's a stupid argument . Regardless of the min wage when burger machines are feasible they will be here. Who cares? Because minimum wage jobs will ALWAYS exist. ALWAYS. And so the min wage should reflect the reality not some what if scenario. The reality is NO ONE could support themselves on $7.25 an hour. Why you are happy to let the taxpayer pick up the slack is beyond me.

Of course they didn't need a MW increase to do it. They did it because it's ALREADY cheaper than human cashiers. Raise the MW, however, and MORE jobs will become cheaper to do with machines. MW jobs are simply not intended for someone to support themselves. Why you would think that is incomprehensible. They are intended to be a young person's foot in the door of the job market, a way for someone to gain work experience and job skills.

These jobs are making people in companies really rich. The government should not be subsidizing the labor.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Lower prices increase sales. Higher prices decrease sales. When machines cost less to do a job than people do, prices go down. Low income people do what when prices go up? What do they do when prices go down? For the answer, ask yourself this. Where do low income people shop for clothes, Macy's or Wal-Mart?

If prices would go down and it was feasible they would be using machines now. They however don't.

The technology is new and will come down in price. Make humans too expensive, and the process will accelerate.

That has probably been said with every min wage increase. Hasnt happened though.

It has been happening, just at a slow enough pace that you haven't noticed.

1. Teenagers used to pump your gas as well as check your oil and water levels and tire pressure at the gas station. Now, you do all that yourself and there is one person working the register inside. I've used totally unattended gas stations. Automation at work.
2. The next time you're in a supermarket, take a look at the checkout lines. See that cluster of kiosks at the end, supervised by ONE employee? Every kiosk replaces a cashier at a register. Their role will expand, the traditional cashier's will shrink. Automation at work.
3. It wasn't terribly long ago that a man could make a career out of bolting and welding car parts together on an assembly line. Remember all that complaining about manufacturing jobs disappearing from the US? They're not all going overseas, many of them have been replaced by robots that do a better job, cheaper. Automation at work.

Don't tell me jobs are not being replaced by automation because of economics.

And we still have plenty of min wage jobs.

He's too dumb to understand that once McDonalds moves in burger machines and eliminates the cooks, the shift manager will become the new minimum wage job. OF COURSE that is what will happen, and then the shift manager who is now being paid $9 an hour will be making $7.50 an hour, unless of course the MW is increased.

 

[EverCurious]

McDonald's managers make between $10/h and $12/h +benefits and sales bonuses right now. My son is a night manager.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

McDonald's managers make between $10/h and $12/h +benefits and sales bonuses right now. My son is a night manager.

sales bonuses for a night manager? LOL

 

[Flopper]

Why don't we raise it to 20 dollars, 25, 30?

I think you know answer. Minimum wages increases are typically in a range of 10% to 20%. The primary reasons we raise minimum wage are reductions in labor turnover; improvements in organizational efficiency; reductions in wages of higher earners ('wage compression'); and small price increases. There have been a number of studies that conclude that moderate increases in minimum wage do not effect job growth. There can be some layoffs of course, but minimum wage puts more money in the hands of people that spend ever dime of it which can offset any negative effect.

Although there is no evidence that moderate minimum wage increases have any negative effect on the economy, there is no evidence that they have any positive effect.

On one hand you admit there are layoffs. Than in the same breath you suggest there are no effects on job growth(I presume you mean employment). Then you go on to say there is no evidence of positive effects. You need to get your story straight here. Perhaps you should reevaluate holding a position you say produces layoffs and has no measured positive effect.

Layoffs(unemployment) certainly seems like an negative effect to me, but perhaps we have differing views on this matter.

The CBO projects approximately 500,000 to 1,000,000 jobs will be lost raising minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016, that isn't even touching the $15 dollar an hour issue. But this is basic economics, when you create price controls, that is, a price floor, in this case, a wage floor, you create a surplus(in this case, a surplus of workers not employable at the above market price set by the government). So were not even just talking about the unemployment we see created, but the potential jobs we don't see created.

The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income Congressional Budget Office

If we ARE going to have a minimum wage, attach it to CPI. But really, at the end of the day, minimum wage is bad economic policy that harms more than it hurts. A $15 dollar an hour wage would harm the very people it purports to help, by making many of them unemployable. They will just hire a more skilled and productive laborer at that wage and prevent the lower rung of the labor market from entering to begin with.

You choose to ignore what I said, "There can be some layoffs of course, but minimum wage puts more money in the hands of people that spend ever dime of it which can offset any negative effect." Of course there will be some negative effects but there are also positive effects which you choose to ignore. Higher wages in the hands of people who spend every cent they earn to survive will create jobs, reduce costly employee turnover and increases productivity Also, the $10.10 minimum wage raises 900,000 employees above the poverty level reducing dependence of government support.

I'm not in favor of a $15 minimum wage increase.

 

[EverCurious]

sales bonuses for a night manager? LOL

Meh it's not much, he said it was "enough to cover his rent" which was $500 for the month, still it's an incentive. He gets some kind of profit sharing too (though I'm not entirely sure that's because of his position itself, or if it's just something he opted into.) Bonuses are just one of the offerings many businesses give out to entice those "better" employees. There's a ton of simple jobs and "fluff workers" who can be hired and fired at will to fill them, but those "better" employees who can handle management are getting rarer by the day, especially ones with brains and good work ethics...

I rode all my boys hard, every one of them has worked for me personally; and I'm a real hard ass about work ethics, especially with my boys of course. They may have hated it then, but now they're making bank. My eldest refused to go to college on us (man we were pissed) he started off working at Denny's making $9/h at age 17, now at 21 he's making $25/h +health care as an RV tech apprentice, and the McDonald's manager is now 19 and doing alright for himself @ $11.50/h full-time after only a year, while he attends college full time too - I wish he'd quit and concentrate on college but the little twerp refuses to let me pay his rent (or move back home cause of his GF) so he says he /has/ to keep working there. Hell, even my youngest, now 16 year old, was making $10-$11/h in /two/ separate jobs ($10/h front counter under me, then another job at a grocery store where he quickly cranked from $9/h to $11/h cause they wanted to keep him.) I made him quit his job at the beginning of school last year because high school work, taking college classes, plus working (part-time - by law he complained constantly) was just too much imo; he's still a bit mad at me for making him quit because he didn't save up enough to buy himself a Subaru, we already have a car for him to use though so he's just being a whiner...

Even my step-son, who's just turned 20, down in Vegas, is making $13/h working the front counter for a tattoo parlor (ooo boy did his mother and my husband have a hissy after he started working there though - as expected would happen he turned 18 and inked up.) Though in all fairness he's studying to be a space engineer so I think the tattoo will be alright and he hasn't gotten another. I don't get credit for raising him though, his grandparents do, but my point is it's /not/ that hard to make more than minimum wage.

That's kind of why I have so little sympathy for perpetual minimum wage earners and minimum wage increase arguments. Those jobs are not intended to raise a family on, they're not intended to be careers, they're intended to be a stepping stone to higher pay, to better jobs. They're easy as pie to do, but the employee's choose not to apply themselves, they don't even try. Then, reinforcing my opinions, instead of looking in the mirror they whine about wanting more money for a simple job /anyone/ can do.

Like I said though, give them a higher min wage and we'll see what happens to the managers pay, worker hours, and how many min wagers they hire. I'm okay with being retired for now so I don't have to deal with making the numbers work until after the dust settles.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

sales bonuses for a night manager? LOL

Meh it's not much, he said it was "enough to cover his rent" which was $500 for the month, still it's an incentive. He gets some kind of profit sharing too (though I'm not entirely sure that's because of his position itself, or if it's just something he opted into.) Bonuses are just one of the offerings many businesses give out to entice those "better" employees. There's a ton of simple jobs and "fluff workers" who can be hired and fired at will to fill them, but those "better" employees who can handle management are getting rarer by the day, especially ones with brains and good work ethics...

I rode all my boys hard, every one of them has worked for me personally; and I'm a real hard ass about work ethics, especially with my boys of course. They may have hated it then, but now they're making bank. My eldest refused to go to college on us (man we were pissed) he started off working at Denny's making $9/h at age 17, now at 21 he's making $25/h +health care as an RV tech apprentice, and the McDonald's manager is now 19 and doing alright for himself @ $11.50/h full-time after only a year, while he attends college full time too - I wish he'd quit and concentrate on college but the little twerp refuses to let me pay his rent (or move back home cause of his GF) so he says he /has/ to keep working there. Hell, even my youngest, now 16 year old, was making $10-$11/h in /two/ separate jobs ($10/h front counter under me, then another job at a grocery store where he quickly cranked from $9/h to $11/h cause they wanted to keep him.) I made him quit his job at the beginning of school last year because high school work, taking college classes, plus working (part-time - by law he complained constantly) was just too much imo; he's still a bit mad at me for making him quit because he didn't save up enough to buy himself a Subaru, we already have a car for him to use though so he's just being a whiner...

Even my step-son, who's just turned 20, down in Vegas, is making $13/h working the front counter for a tattoo parlor (ooo boy did his mother and my husband have a hissy after he started working there though - as expected would happen he turned 18 and inked up.) Though in all fairness he's studying to be a space engineer so I think the tattoo will be alright and he hasn't gotten another. I don't get credit for raising him though, his grandparents do, but my point is it's /not/ that hard to make more than minimum wage.

That's kind of why I have so little sympathy for perpetual minimum wage earners and minimum wage increase arguments. Those jobs are not intended to raise a family on, they're not intended to be careers, they're intended to be a stepping stone to higher pay, to better jobs. They're easy as pie to do, but the employee's choose not to apply themselves, they don't even try. Then, reinforcing my opinions, instead of looking in the mirror they whine about wanting more money for a simple job /anyone/ can do.

Like I said though, give them a higher min wage and we'll see what happens to the managers pay, worker hours, and how many min wagers they hire. I'm okay with being retired for now so I don't have to deal with making the numbers work until after the dust settles.

LOL @ profit sharing. Now I simply dont believe your story at all. You have no idea of just how horribly fast food restaraunts treat their employees.

 

[Flopper]

There are no machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, cook and assemble burgers, so your argument is moot..

Actually, we have machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, and cook burgers - do you seriously believe burger assembly is an engineering challenge we can't solve?

How many restaurants serve nothing but hamburgers?

There are no machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, cook and assemble burgers, so your argument is moot..

Actually, we have machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, and cook burgers - do you seriously believe burger assembly is an engineering challenge we can't solve?

Why do we still have cooks?

Fast found restaurants don't just serve hamburgers. A McDonald kitchen prepares fried and broiled chicken sandwiches, fish sandwiches, chicken nuggets, snack wraps, a multitude of special burgers, a variety of egg muffin sandwiches, pancakes, eggs, sausages, biscuits, and constantly changing specials.

Unless your restaurant served just burgers, a burger machine with have a minimal impact on employment because the kitchen staff is still needed to prepare other food.

There is also another problem with automation. It's not flexible. The machine can only perform the tasks that it has been built to perform. So management's menu is limited by the machine; not a good idea since fast food restaurants have built their menu by trying out new menu offerings.
.

When people cost more than machines, and machines can do a better job than people, machines will do the job. It used to be that a man could make a career bolting or welding car parts together on an assembly line. Not any more. It used to be that a woman could make a career out of making clothes by hand. Not any more. It used to be that a computer programmer could make a career out of writing file I/O and screen painting routines. Not any more.

I agree that when wage cost are more than machines and those machines can do a better job, those machines will replace the workers. However, there is more to it than that. What if wage costs are much lower than the cost of machines that can do the job better and produce a better product. Will the business pay more for the machines that delivery better products? Maybe or maybe not. In China and third world countries, cheap labor is producing tons of junk that last only long enough to sell because it's more profitable than using expensive machines.

If the cost of labor is exceedingly high, say $25/hr. The business must buy the burger machine to stay in business and the public will have to put up with the crappy burgers because they just can't or won't pay $20 for a good burger.

My point is neither a very high or very low minimum wage is desirable.

 

[hadit]

If prices would go down and it was feasible they would be using machines now. They however don't.

The technology is new and will come down in price. Make humans too expensive, and the process will accelerate.

That has probably been said with every min wage increase. Hasnt happened though.

It has been happening, just at a slow enough pace that you haven't noticed.

1. Teenagers used to pump your gas as well as check your oil and water levels and tire pressure at the gas station. Now, you do all that yourself and there is one person working the register inside. I've used totally unattended gas stations. Automation at work.
2. The next time you're in a supermarket, take a look at the checkout lines. See that cluster of kiosks at the end, supervised by ONE employee? Every kiosk replaces a cashier at a register. Their role will expand, the traditional cashier's will shrink. Automation at work.
3. It wasn't terribly long ago that a man could make a career out of bolting and welding car parts together on an assembly line. Remember all that complaining about manufacturing jobs disappearing from the US? They're not all going overseas, many of them have been replaced by robots that do a better job, cheaper. Automation at work.

Don't tell me jobs are not being replaced by automation because of economics.

And we still have plenty of min wage jobs.

He's too dumb to understand that once McDonalds moves in burger machines and eliminates the cooks, the shift manager will become the new minimum wage job. OF COURSE that is what will happen, and then the shift manager who is now being paid $9 an hour will be making $7.50 an hour, unless of course the MW is increased.

Apparently you're too dumb to realize that the next wave of MW jobs will be smaller, because it takes fewer people to oversee machines that can do more work, cheaper, than the many MW workers they replaced.

 

[hadit]

sales bonuses for a night manager? LOL

Meh it's not much, he said it was "enough to cover his rent" which was $500 for the month, still it's an incentive. He gets some kind of profit sharing too (though I'm not entirely sure that's because of his position itself, or if it's just something he opted into.) Bonuses are just one of the offerings many businesses give out to entice those "better" employees. There's a ton of simple jobs and "fluff workers" who can be hired and fired at will to fill them, but those "better" employees who can handle management are getting rarer by the day, especially ones with brains and good work ethics...

I rode all my boys hard, every one of them has worked for me personally; and I'm a real hard ass about work ethics, especially with my boys of course. They may have hated it then, but now they're making bank. My eldest refused to go to college on us (man we were pissed) he started off working at Denny's making $9/h at age 17, now at 21 he's making $25/h +health care as an RV tech apprentice, and the McDonald's manager is now 19 and doing alright for himself @ $11.50/h full-time after only a year, while he attends college full time too - I wish he'd quit and concentrate on college but the little twerp refuses to let me pay his rent (or move back home cause of his GF) so he says he /has/ to keep working there. Hell, even my youngest, now 16 year old, was making $10-$11/h in /two/ separate jobs ($10/h front counter under me, then another job at a grocery store where he quickly cranked from $9/h to $11/h cause they wanted to keep him.) I made him quit his job at the beginning of school last year because high school work, taking college classes, plus working (part-time - by law he complained constantly) was just too much imo; he's still a bit mad at me for making him quit because he didn't save up enough to buy himself a Subaru, we already have a car for him to use though so he's just being a whiner...

Even my step-son, who's just turned 20, down in Vegas, is making $13/h working the front counter for a tattoo parlor (ooo boy did his mother and my husband have a hissy after he started working there though - as expected would happen he turned 18 and inked up.) Though in all fairness he's studying to be a space engineer so I think the tattoo will be alright and he hasn't gotten another. I don't get credit for raising him though, his grandparents do, but my point is it's /not/ that hard to make more than minimum wage.

That's kind of why I have so little sympathy for perpetual minimum wage earners and minimum wage increase arguments. Those jobs are not intended to raise a family on, they're not intended to be careers, they're intended to be a stepping stone to higher pay, to better jobs. They're easy as pie to do, but the employee's choose not to apply themselves, they don't even try. Then, reinforcing my opinions, instead of looking in the mirror they whine about wanting more money for a simple job /anyone/ can do.

Like I said though, give them a higher min wage and we'll see what happens to the managers pay, worker hours, and how many min wagers they hire. I'm okay with being retired for now so I don't have to deal with making the numbers work until after the dust settles.

LOL @ profit sharing. Now I simply dont believe your story at all. You have no idea of just how horribly fast food restaraunts treat their employees.

You're using a VERY broad brush there. Are you absolutely certain that NO fast food outlets operate differently from the stereotype you obviously believe?

 

[hadit]

There are no machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, cook and assemble burgers, so your argument is moot..

Actually, we have machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, and cook burgers - do you seriously believe burger assembly is an engineering challenge we can't solve?

How many restaurants serve nothing but hamburgers?

There are no machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, cook and assemble burgers, so your argument is moot..

Actually, we have machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, and cook burgers - do you seriously believe burger assembly is an engineering challenge we can't solve?

Why do we still have cooks?

Fast found restaurants don't just serve hamburgers. A McDonald kitchen prepares fried and broiled chicken sandwiches, fish sandwiches, chicken nuggets, snack wraps, a multitude of special burgers, a variety of egg muffin sandwiches, pancakes, eggs, sausages, biscuits, and constantly changing specials.

Unless your restaurant served just burgers, a burger machine with have a minimal impact on employment because the kitchen staff is still needed to prepare other food.

There is also another problem with automation. It's not flexible. The machine can only perform the tasks that it has been built to perform. So management's menu is limited by the machine; not a good idea since fast food restaurants have built their menu by trying out new menu offerings.
.

When people cost more than machines, and machines can do a better job than people, machines will do the job. It used to be that a man could make a career bolting or welding car parts together on an assembly line. Not any more. It used to be that a woman could make a career out of making clothes by hand. Not any more. It used to be that a computer programmer could make a career out of writing file I/O and screen painting routines. Not any more.

I agree that when wage cost are more than machines and those machines can do a better job, those machines will replace the workers. However, there is more to it than that. What if wage costs are much lower than the cost of machines that can do the job better and produce a better product. Will the business pay more for the machines that delivery better products? Maybe or maybe not. In China and third world countries, cheap labor is producing tons of junk that last only long enough to sell because it's more profitable than using expensive machines.

If the cost of labor is exceedingly high, say $25/hr. The business must buy the burger machine to stay in business and the public will have to put up with the crappy burgers because they just can't or won't pay $20 for a good burger.

My point is neither a very high or very low minimum wage is desirable.

Actually, the machine can make burgers as good, if not better, than a human can. It can start with fresh ground custom blends of meat, shape them perfectly every time, and cook them precisely every time.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

There are no machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, cook and assemble burgers, so your argument is moot..

Actually, we have machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, and cook burgers - do you seriously believe burger assembly is an engineering challenge we can't solve?

How many restaurants serve nothing but hamburgers?

Actually, we have machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, and cook burgers - do you seriously believe burger assembly is an engineering challenge we can't solve?

Why do we still have cooks?

Fast found restaurants don't just serve hamburgers. A McDonald kitchen prepares fried and broiled chicken sandwiches, fish sandwiches, chicken nuggets, snack wraps, a multitude of special burgers, a variety of egg muffin sandwiches, pancakes, eggs, sausages, biscuits, and constantly changing specials.

Unless your restaurant served just burgers, a burger machine with have a minimal impact on employment because the kitchen staff is still needed to prepare other food.

There is also another problem with automation. It's not flexible. The machine can only perform the tasks that it has been built to perform. So management's menu is limited by the machine; not a good idea since fast food restaurants have built their menu by trying out new menu offerings.
.

When people cost more than machines, and machines can do a better job than people, machines will do the job. It used to be that a man could make a career bolting or welding car parts together on an assembly line. Not any more. It used to be that a woman could make a career out of making clothes by hand. Not any more. It used to be that a computer programmer could make a career out of writing file I/O and screen painting routines. Not any more.

I agree that when wage cost are more than machines and those machines can do a better job, those machines will replace the workers. However, there is more to it than that. What if wage costs are much lower than the cost of machines that can do the job better and produce a better product. Will the business pay more for the machines that delivery better products? Maybe or maybe not. In China and third world countries, cheap labor is producing tons of junk that last only long enough to sell because it's more profitable than using expensive machines.

If the cost of labor is exceedingly high, say $25/hr. The business must buy the burger machine to stay in business and the public will have to put up with the crappy burgers because they just can't or won't pay $20 for a good burger.

My point is neither a very high or very low minimum wage is desirable.

Actually, the machine can make burgers as good, if not better, than a human can. It can start with fresh ground custom blends of meat, shape them perfectly every time, and cook them precisely every time.

Can it also collect trays, take out the trash, mop the floor, clean restrooms, police the parking lot, etc etc? That machine would work great for a walk up type restaurant with no dining in option, otherwise you still need employees.

 

[Brain357]

There are no machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, cook and assemble burgers, so your argument is moot..

Actually, we have machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, and cook burgers - do you seriously believe burger assembly is an engineering challenge we can't solve?

How many restaurants serve nothing but hamburgers?

Actually, we have machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, and cook burgers - do you seriously believe burger assembly is an engineering challenge we can't solve?

Why do we still have cooks?

Fast found restaurants don't just serve hamburgers. A McDonald kitchen prepares fried and broiled chicken sandwiches, fish sandwiches, chicken nuggets, snack wraps, a multitude of special burgers, a variety of egg muffin sandwiches, pancakes, eggs, sausages, biscuits, and constantly changing specials.

Unless your restaurant served just burgers, a burger machine with have a minimal impact on employment because the kitchen staff is still needed to prepare other food.

There is also another problem with automation. It's not flexible. The machine can only perform the tasks that it has been built to perform. So management's menu is limited by the machine; not a good idea since fast food restaurants have built their menu by trying out new menu offerings.
.

When people cost more than machines, and machines can do a better job than people, machines will do the job. It used to be that a man could make a career bolting or welding car parts together on an assembly line. Not any more. It used to be that a woman could make a career out of making clothes by hand. Not any more. It used to be that a computer programmer could make a career out of writing file I/O and screen painting routines. Not any more.

I agree that when wage cost are more than machines and those machines can do a better job, those machines will replace the workers. However, there is more to it than that. What if wage costs are much lower than the cost of machines that can do the job better and produce a better product. Will the business pay more for the machines that delivery better products? Maybe or maybe not. In China and third world countries, cheap labor is producing tons of junk that last only long enough to sell because it's more profitable than using expensive machines.

If the cost of labor is exceedingly high, say $25/hr. The business must buy the burger machine to stay in business and the public will have to put up with the crappy burgers because they just can't or won't pay $20 for a good burger.

My point is neither a very high or very low minimum wage is desirable.

Actually, the machine can make burgers as good, if not better, than a human can. It can start with fresh ground custom blends of meat, shape them perfectly every time, and cook them precisely every time.

All that and nobody is using it.

 

[Steinlight]

Why don't we raise it to 20 dollars, 25, 30?

I think you know answer. Minimum wages increases are typically in a range of 10% to 20%. The primary reasons we raise minimum wage are reductions in labor turnover; improvements in organizational efficiency; reductions in wages of higher earners ('wage compression'); and small price increases. There have been a number of studies that conclude that moderate increases in minimum wage do not effect job growth. There can be some layoffs of course, but minimum wage puts more money in the hands of people that spend ever dime of it which can offset any negative effect.

Although there is no evidence that moderate minimum wage increases have any negative effect on the economy, there is no evidence that they have any positive effect.

On one hand you admit there are layoffs. Than in the same breath you suggest there are no effects on job growth(I presume you mean employment). Then you go on to say there is no evidence of positive effects. You need to get your story straight here. Perhaps you should reevaluate holding a position you say produces layoffs and has no measured positive effect.

Layoffs(unemployment) certainly seems like an negative effect to me, but perhaps we have differing views on this matter.

The CBO projects approximately 500,000 to 1,000,000 jobs will be lost raising minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016, that isn't even touching the $15 dollar an hour issue. But this is basic economics, when you create price controls, that is, a price floor, in this case, a wage floor, you create a surplus(in this case, a surplus of workers not employable at the above market price set by the government). So were not even just talking about the unemployment we see created, but the potential jobs we don't see created.

The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income Congressional Budget Office

If we ARE going to have a minimum wage, attach it to CPI. But really, at the end of the day, minimum wage is bad economic policy that harms more than it hurts. A $15 dollar an hour wage would harm the very people it purports to help, by making many of them unemployable. They will just hire a more skilled and productive laborer at that wage and prevent the lower rung of the labor market from entering to begin with.

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016.

Minimum Wage Mythbusters - U.S. Department of Labor

I guess they don't view hundreds of thousands losing there job as a discernable effect. I disagree.

 

[Steinlight]

Why don't we raise it to 20 dollars, 25, 30?

I think you know answer. Minimum wages increases are typically in a range of 10% to 20%. The primary reasons we raise minimum wage are reductions in labor turnover; improvements in organizational efficiency; reductions in wages of higher earners ('wage compression'); and small price increases. There have been a number of studies that conclude that moderate increases in minimum wage do not effect job growth. There can be some layoffs of course, but minimum wage puts more money in the hands of people that spend ever dime of it which can offset any negative effect.

Although there is no evidence that moderate minimum wage increases have any negative effect on the economy, there is no evidence that they have any positive effect.

On one hand you admit there are layoffs. Than in the same breath you suggest there are no effects on job growth(I presume you mean employment). Then you go on to say there is no evidence of positive effects. You need to get your story straight here. Perhaps you should reevaluate holding a position you say produces layoffs and has no measured positive effect.

Layoffs(unemployment) certainly seems like an negative effect to me, but perhaps we have differing views on this matter.

The CBO projects approximately 500,000 to 1,000,000 jobs will be lost raising minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016, that isn't even touching the $15 dollar an hour issue. But this is basic economics, when you create price controls, that is, a price floor, in this case, a wage floor, you create a surplus(in this case, a surplus of workers not employable at the above market price set by the government). So were not even just talking about the unemployment we see created, but the potential jobs we don't see created.

The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income Congressional Budget Office

If we ARE going to have a minimum wage, attach it to CPI. But really, at the end of the day, minimum wage is bad economic policy that harms more than it hurts. A $15 dollar an hour wage would harm the very people it purports to help, by making many of them unemployable. They will just hire a more skilled and productive laborer at that wage and prevent the lower rung of the labor market from entering to begin with.

You choose to ignore what I said, "There can be some layoffs of course, but minimum wage puts more money in the hands of people that spend ever dime of it which can offset any negative effect." Of course there will be some negative effects but there are also positive effects which you choose to ignore. Higher wages in the hands of people who spend every cent they earn to survive will create jobs, reduce costly employee turnover and increases productivity Also, the $10.10 minimum wage raises 900,000 employees above the poverty level reducing dependence of government support.

I'm not in favor of a $15 minimum wage increase.

But as you said, there is no evidence of all this new money from minimum wage creating new jobs. You talk about making people less dependent on welfare. What about those who lost their jobs and are more dependent on welfare after the fact?

 

[Steinlight]

There are no machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, cook and assemble burgers, so your argument is moot..

Actually, we have machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, and cook burgers - do you seriously believe burger assembly is an engineering challenge we can't solve?

How many restaurants serve nothing but hamburgers?

There are no machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, cook and assemble burgers, so your argument is moot..

Actually, we have machines that can grind meat, shape burger patties, and cook burgers - do you seriously believe burger assembly is an engineering challenge we can't solve?

Why do we still have cooks?

Fast found restaurants don't just serve hamburgers. A McDonald kitchen prepares fried and broiled chicken sandwiches, fish sandwiches, chicken nuggets, snack wraps, a multitude of special burgers, a variety of egg muffin sandwiches, pancakes, eggs, sausages, biscuits, and constantly changing specials.

Unless your restaurant served just burgers, a burger machine with have a minimal impact on employment because the kitchen staff is still needed to prepare other food.

There is also another problem with automation. It's not flexible. The machine can only perform the tasks that it has been built to perform. So management's menu is limited by the machine; not a good idea since fast food restaurants have built their menu by trying out new menu offerings.
.

When people cost more than machines, and machines can do a better job than people, machines will do the job. It used to be that a man could make a career bolting or welding car parts together on an assembly line. Not any more. It used to be that a woman could make a career out of making clothes by hand. Not any more. It used to be that a computer programmer could make a career out of writing file I/O and screen painting routines. Not any more.

I agree that when wage cost are more than machines and those machines can do a better job, those machines will replace the workers. However, there is more to it than that. What if wage costs are much lower than the cost of machines that can do the job better and produce a better product. Will the business pay more for the machines that delivery better products? Maybe or maybe not. In China and third world countries, cheap labor is producing tons of junk that last only long enough to sell because it's more profitable than using expensive machines.

If the cost of labor is exceedingly high, say $25/hr. The business must buy the burger machine to stay in business and the public will have to put up with the crappy burgers because they just can't or won't pay $20 for a good burger.

My point is neither a very high or very low minimum wage is desirable.

Price controls all together aren't desirable.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Why don't we raise it to 20 dollars, 25, 30?

I think you know answer. Minimum wages increases are typically in a range of 10% to 20%. The primary reasons we raise minimum wage are reductions in labor turnover; improvements in organizational efficiency; reductions in wages of higher earners ('wage compression'); and small price increases. There have been a number of studies that conclude that moderate increases in minimum wage do not effect job growth. There can be some layoffs of course, but minimum wage puts more money in the hands of people that spend ever dime of it which can offset any negative effect.

Although there is no evidence that moderate minimum wage increases have any negative effect on the economy, there is no evidence that they have any positive effect.

On one hand you admit there are layoffs. Than in the same breath you suggest there are no effects on job growth(I presume you mean employment). Then you go on to say there is no evidence of positive effects. You need to get your story straight here. Perhaps you should reevaluate holding a position you say produces layoffs and has no measured positive effect.

Layoffs(unemployment) certainly seems like an negative effect to me, but perhaps we have differing views on this matter.

The CBO projects approximately 500,000 to 1,000,000 jobs will be lost raising minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016, that isn't even touching the $15 dollar an hour issue. But this is basic economics, when you create price controls, that is, a price floor, in this case, a wage floor, you create a surplus(in this case, a surplus of workers not employable at the above market price set by the government). So were not even just talking about the unemployment we see created, but the potential jobs we don't see created.

The Effects of a Minimum-Wage Increase on Employment and Family Income Congressional Budget Office

If we ARE going to have a minimum wage, attach it to CPI. But really, at the end of the day, minimum wage is bad economic policy that harms more than it hurts. A $15 dollar an hour wage would harm the very people it purports to help, by making many of them unemployable. They will just hire a more skilled and productive laborer at that wage and prevent the lower rung of the labor market from entering to begin with.

You choose to ignore what I said, "There can be some layoffs of course, but minimum wage puts more money in the hands of people that spend ever dime of it which can offset any negative effect." Of course there will be some negative effects but there are also positive effects which you choose to ignore. Higher wages in the hands of people who spend every cent they earn to survive will create jobs, reduce costly employee turnover and increases productivity Also, the $10.10 minimum wage raises 900,000 employees above the poverty level reducing dependence of government support.

I'm not in favor of a $15 minimum wage increase.

But as you said, there is no evidence of all this new money from minimum wage creating new jobs. You talk about making people less dependent on welfare. What about those who lost their jobs and are more dependent on welfare after the fact?

History proves that a raise in the minimum wage results in a 3% increase in unemployment which levels off within 2 years.

This "we have to keep wages low for the sake of the minimum wage employee" argument is STUPID.