Murderer Chauvin loses appeal

[Ghost of a Rider]

Whether your argument is real or make believe is entirely relevant.

It’s irrelevant because you haven’t bothered to objectively read the article. If you did you would know I’m not imagining anything.

Except he wasn't.

Yes, he was. Read the article.

There was criticism from citizens who didn't like the impression the prosecutor painted from an unfinished autopsy.

Wrong. The autopsy was not unfinished, it just hadn’t been officially released yet.

It hadn't been competed yet you moron. The charging document admits the autopsy is ongoing.

If that’s true then he had no business telling the ME what to put in there.

What's relevant is that it was never left out, clown.

It wasn’t “left out”, it just wasn’t added until prosecutors pressed him.

Because you've been too busy sharing with us your fantasy of what actually happened.

Irrelevant. Nothing I’ve said can be disputed because I never claimed any facts except what went on between the ME and prosecutors.

Everything else is my opinion and I’ve made that clear from the start.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

wtf?? Did you not see that picture of the 3 of them kneeling on him? Did you not click on the video? They were "pinning" him down by being on him.

And? They weren’t pinning him down for no reason. They were pinning him down because he wouldn’t comply and it took three of them because he was a large man.

Knowing this, I’m not sure what your point was.

Again, that's not true. The chief of police did not lie. He was asked if what Chauvin was doing was in their training manual and he answered honestly that it was not. And it wasn't. What Chauvin was doing was NOT MRT. As I showed you from the training manual, there's no knee on the neck and the officer does not stand upright on their knees.

I believe Chauvin had his right knee on the ground. But again, the judge only allowed the one pic as evidence.

That's your opinion. I disagree. I don't see perjury and I believe the ME when he said no one pressured him.

I don’t.

I don’t think he deliberately lied but I do think he was pressured nonetheless.

There was simply too much pressure from the public, politicians, prosecutors and others from all sides for me to take that without a grain of salt.

There was no forensic evidence of an overdose.

Didn’t say there was an overdose. But I cannot overrule the possibility that the drugs made him paranoid and maybe triggered a heart attack.

On a side note, Baker did say in discussions with prosecutors and the FBI (what the fuck were they doing there anyway?) that Floyd had a fatal level of drugs in his system, that if he’d died at home, drug overdose would have been assumed, given the level he had in his system.

Yet, no one ever seriously considered this possibility.

The cardiac arrest was the result of positional asphyxiation of being pinned down like that for an unreasonable length of time.

That’s what they claimed based on the circumstantial evidence of Chauvin’s knee on his neck. There is no forensic evidence to actually support this charge.

Prolly cause he didn't want to be arrested.

Who does? That doesn’t explain the extreme panic and paranoia.

As they were trying to get him in the cruiser his screams and pleas made it sound like they were torturing him for Christ’s sake.

 

[Faun]

And? They weren’t pinning him down for no reason. They were pinning him down because he wouldn’t comply and it took three of them because he was a large man.

WTF?? You didn't even know they were on him.

Regardless, they did not need to be on him for 9.5 minutes. He stopped resisting after about a minute. He stopped moving altogether after several minutes. He was dead after about 7 minutes. And they still weren't monitoring him as they were supposed to and were on him for another couple of minutes after he died. And ALL of that was AFTER he started complaining he was having trouble breathing.

Knowing this, I’m not sure what your point was.

I believe Chauvin had his right knee on the ground. But again, the judge only allowed the one pic as evidence.

Doesn't matter. He still had about half his total body weight on Floyd's neck because he negligently administered MRT.

Didn’t say there was an overdose. But I cannot overrule the possibility that the drugs made him paranoid and maybe triggered a heart attack.

I'm not an MD but I've never heard of paranoia causing a heart attack.

On a side note, Baker did say in discussions with prosecutors and the FBI (what the fuck were they doing there anyway?) that Floyd had a fatal level of drugs in his system, that if he’d died at home, drug overdose would have been assumed, given the level he had in his system.

Yet, no one ever seriously considered this possibility.

Of course an overdose was considered. It was ruled out because Floyd's pathology didn't include tell tale signs of an overdose.

That’s what they claimed based on the circumstantial evidence of Chauvin’s knee on his neck. There is no forensic evidence to actually support this charge.

Again, positional asphyxiation is very difficult to diagnose. Like with infants who tragically die in their crib, if everything else is ruled out, it's often diagnosed as positional asphyxiation. Same is what occurred with Floyd.

 

[XponentialChaos]

View attachment 867576

So who do you think is more likely to be correct? The competent medical expert or the person with no medical experience who believes the medical expert is wrong?

Ghost of a Rider

I still don’t see how you can possibly think it’s reasonable for you to argue that the medical examiner is wrong when you have absolutely no medical knowledge whatsoever. Not expecting you to answer considering how incredibly stupid it is of you to believe that. There’s no justification for it whatsoever, and that would explain why you can’t defend your stupid position.

I’ll ask again. So who do you think is more likely to be correct? The competent medical expert or the person with no medical experience who believes the medical expert is wrong?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

WTF?? You didn't even know they were on him.

Of course I did.

When you said they were “on” him, I took that to mean the way Chauvin was.

Regardless, they did not need to be on him for 9.5 minutes.

They weren’t.

He stopped resisting after about a minute. He stopped moving altogether after several minutes. He was dead after about 7 minutes. And they still weren't monitoring him as they were supposed to and were on him for another couple of minutes after he died. And ALL of that was AFTER he started complaining he was having trouble breathing.

Okay. But does this prove this is how he died? He did have a fatal level of drugs in his system after all.

Knowing this, I’m not sure what your point was.

You brought it up, not me.

Doesn't matter. He still had about half his total body weight on Floyd's neck because he negligently administered MRT.

You don’t know how much of his body weight was on Floyd.

I'm not an MD but I've never heard of paranoia causing a heart attack.

Don’t be an idiot. Floyd worked himself to a highly agitated and stressed state and for no apparent reason.

Of course an overdose was considered. It was ruled out because Floyd's pathology didn't include tell tale signs of an overdose.

There were no telltale signs of asphyxiation either.

Again, positional asphyxiation is very difficult to diagnose. Like with infants who tragically die in their crib, if everything else is ruled out, it's often diagnosed as positional asphyxiation. Same is what occurred with Floyd.

So in case of ignorance of medical signs and facts, choose the option that sends a possibly innocent man to prison for twenty plus years. Is that what you’re telling me?

I have no love for Chauvin but I am thoroughly convinced he was thrown to the sharks because everyone knew that if he was acquitted, the ensuing riots would make the ones that came before look like a schoolyard tussle.

 

[XponentialChaos]

Okay. But does this prove this is how he died?

That’s what the medical examiner says. The only one in position to state how he died says that’s how he died. Of course, if you’re stupid enough to argue that he’s wrong despite the fact that you have no medical experience whatsoever, that’s also an argument you can make. It’s just a very, very, incredibly stupid argument for you to make. So who do you think is more likely to be correct? The competent medical expert or the person with no medical experience who believes the medical expert is wrong?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Ghost of a Rider

I still don’t see how you can possibly think it’s reasonable for you to argue that the medical examiner is wrong when you have absolutely no medical knowledge whatsoever.

It’s reasonable if I don’t question his medical knowledge and is not why I think he’s wrong.

I’ve told you multiple times why I think he’s wrong but you refuse to take me at my word.

Not expecting you to answer considering how incredibly stupid it is of you to believe that.

I don’t believe it. That is the source of your confusion.

There’s no justification for it whatsoever, and that would explain why you can’t defend your stupid position.

Your false assumptions do not accurately define my position. If I truly can’t defend it, that’s why.

I’ll ask again. So who do you think is more likely to be correct? The competent medical expert or the person with no medical experience who believes the medical expert is wrong?

(…)

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

That’s what the medical examiner says. The only one in position to state how he died says that’s how he died. Of course, if you’re stupid enough to argue that he’s wrong despite the fact that you have no medical experience whatsoever, that’s also an argument you can make. It’s just a very, very, incredibly stupid argument for you to make. So who do you think is more likely to be correct? The competent medical expert or the person with no medical experience who believes the medical expert is wrong?

(…)

 

[XponentialChaos]

It’s reasonable if I don’t question his medical knowledge and is not why I think he’s wrong.

Is that why you keep running away from answering a simple question? So who do you think is more likely to be correct? The competent medical expert or the person with no medical experience who believes the medical expert is wrong?

 

[XponentialChaos]

(…)

 

[XponentialChaos]

I still don’t see how you can possibly think it’s reasonable for you to argue that the medical examiner is wrong when you have absolutely no medical knowledge whatsoever. Not expecting you to answer considering how incredibly stupid it is of you to believe that.

I don’t believe it. That is the source of your confusion.

Now you’re lying. Yes, you do. You believe the medical examiner is wrong. You specifically said that. You’re arguing that you believe the medical examiner is wrong when you have no medical experience whatsoever. That’s beyond stupid. And that‘s why you’re lying and why you can’t defend your stupid position. You run away every time I ask you who is more likely to be correct.

 

[Faun]

Of course I did.

When you said they were “on” him, I took that to mean the way Chauvin was.

Not what you said, but whatever. And btw, they were on Floyd close to the way Chauvin was, with their knees pinning him down. But unlike Chauvin, they were leaning back as they were trained.

They weren’t.

I don't know about Lane or Kueng, but Chauvin was...

New Footage Shows Delayed Medical Response to George Floyd (Published 2020)

A Minnesota judge ordered that footage from cameras worn by two officers be publicly released. Here’s what that footage tells us. These videos include graphic imagery.

www.nytimes.com

Mr. Lane’s and Mr. Kueng’s videos provide the first clear evidence of the time Mr. Chauvin places his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck, changing the widely known narrative that Mr. Chauvin held his knee there for eight minutes and 46 seconds. Prosecutors initially gave this duration, then changed it to seven minutes and 46 seconds. The footage shows that neither were correct: Mr. Chauvin actually keeps his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck from 8:19 until 8:28 p.m., for a total of nine minutes and 30 seconds. That is nearly two minutes more than the prosecutors’ amended time.​

Okay. But does this prove this is how he died? He did have a fatal level of drugs in his system after all.

Doesn't matter. There was no Edema in his body, which would have revealed an overdose of Fentanyl.

You don’t know how much of his body weight was on Floyd.

I have a good idea. His left knee was on Floyd's neck. His torso was wrongly positioned above Floyd. Means a good portion of half his torso weight was on Floyd's neck. At times, his left foot even came off the ground, so all of Chauvin's left side was on Floyd's neck when he did that.

Don’t be an idiot. Floyd worked himself to a highly agitated and stressed state and for no apparent reason.

What does that have to do with your uncorroborated suggestion that Floyd could have died from being paranoid?

There were no telltale signs of asphyxiation either.

Already addressed.

So in case of ignorance of medical signs and facts, choose the option that sends a possibly innocent man to prison for twenty plus years. Is that what you’re telling me?

He wasn't innocent. He negligently applied pressure to a man's neck for 9.5 minutes. And Chauvin remained on his neck for a couple of minutes after Floyd died. That's negligence. Two ME's determined his death was a homicide, not an accident and not a suicide.

I have no love for Chauvin but I am thoroughly convinced he was thrown to the sharks because everyone knew that if he was acquitted, the ensuing riots would make the ones that came before look like a schoolyard tussle.

Your opinion is noted.

 

[Curried Goats]

It’s irrelevant because you haven’t bothered to objectively read the article. If you did you would know I’m not imagining anything.


Yes, he was. Read the article.

I read the article you linked to you moron. That's why I asked you to provide the specific part you're referring to. Here is a quote from your link.

Medical examiner: No pressure on Floyd autopsy report

Dr. Andrew Baker, Hennepin County’s chief medical examiner, said Floyd died after police “subdual, restraint and neck compression” caused his heart and lungs to stop. He said heart disease and drug use were factors but not the “top line” causes. He said Floyd had an enlarged heart that needed more oxygen than normal, as well as narrowed arteries.

Thao’s attorney, Robert Paule, asked Tuesday whether Baker was pressured into listing “neck compression” as a factor in his autopsy report. Baker testified that he told prosecutors on the day of Floyd’s autopsy that there was no physical evidence of asphyxia, or insufficient oxygen. Prosecutors put that information in their initial complaint against Chauvin, and listed existing health conditions, police restraint and potential intoxicants as contributing factors.

Your own link refers back to statements the initial prosecutor put in their charging document, not the M.E. What does that charging document say about the autopsy? It says,

The Hennepin County Medical Examiner(ME) conducted Mr. Floyd's autopsy on May 26, 2020. The full report of the ME is pending but the ME has made the following preliminary findings. The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death.

Right there in that charging document it talks about these being preliminary findings and not the conclusions of the final autopsy.

Wrong. The autopsy was not unfinished, it just hadn’t been officially released yet.

It was. Your own damn link from post #612 refers to preliminary findings you illiterate fucktard.

If that’s true then he had no business telling the ME what to put in there.

The M.E. didn't put it in there you moron, the prosecutor did. The document is signed by the prosecutor not the M.E. I'll put the link to the charging document below. You tell me where you see the M.E.'s signature on it.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthe...d9e96e708a9b0c8ba58/optimized/full.pdf#page=1

It wasn’t “left out”, it just wasn’t added until prosecutors pressed him.

Irrelevant. Nothing I’ve said can be disputed because I never claimed any facts except what went on between the ME and prosecutors.

Everything else is my opinion and I’ve made that clear from the start.

Yet what you think occurred between the prosecutor and M.E. is blatantly wrong. Your own link refers to a charging document that says the information being presented in it is preliminary.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Is that why you keep running away from answering a simple question?

Is it why you keep running from my question?

So who do you think is more likely to be correct? The competent medical expert or the person with no medical experience who believes the medical expert is wrong?

(…)

 

[XponentialChaos]

(…)

You can’t answer the simple question because even you understand how stupid it sounds. It’s a stupid fucking argument, like I’ve told you from the beginning.

You’re actually stupid enough to argue that you believe you’re right and the medical examiner is wrong, despite the fact that you have no fucking knowledge of pathology. That’s beyond retarded. So retarded that even you can’t attempt to justify it. Congratulations.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Now you’re lying. Yes, you do. You believe the medical examiner is wrong.

Yes, I believe he’s wrong. No, I don’t believe he’s incompetent or that I know patholgy.

You specifically said that. You’re arguing that you believe the medical examiner is wrong when you have no medical experience whatsoever.

Yes, I am. I believe he’s wrong due to a lapse in judgment which in turn is due to outside pressures and criticism of his findings.

That’s beyond stupid. And that‘s why you’re lying and why you can’t defend your stupid position. You run away every time I ask you who is more likely to be correct.

I refuse to answer because you keep running away from my question. And no, you did not answer the question, you accused me of lying.

An accusation is not an answer to how you think his knowledge is relevant to my argument. It’s a deflection.

On top of all this, you didn’t even respond to the question until after you ignored it three times.

You’re a hypocrite.

 

[XponentialChaos]

Yes, I believe he’s wrong. No, I don’t believe he’s incompetent or that I know patholgy.

Yes, I am. I believe he’s wrong due to a lapse in judgment which in turn is due to outside pressures and criticism of his findings.

Right. And you believe all of that despite the fact that you have NO FUCKING KNOWLEDGE of pathology whatsoever. How the flying fuck is that an intelligent argument?! Holy fucking shit. Gee, I don’t know, who is more likely to be correct: the competent medical expert or some random idiot on the internet who believes the medical expert is wrong? Hmmmmmmmmmmm that’s a tough one. Oh man, what a super compelling counter-argument. Now I don’t know what to believe anymore. On one hand, we have the competent medical expert. On the other hand, you. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. So difficult to choose one over the other.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Not what you said,

Of course it’s not what I said. I assumed you meant all three of them were “on” him like Chauvin was so I disputed that.

but whatever. And btw, they were on Floyd close to the way Chauvin was, with their knees pinning him down. But unlike Chauvin, they were leaning back as they were trained.

Unless all three were restricting Floyd’s breathing, again, I don’t understand your point in bringing that up.
It took three of them to restrain him because he was a big man. You know this as well as I do.

I don't know about Lane or Kueng, but Chauvin was...

New Footage Shows Delayed Medical Response to George Floyd (Published 2020)

A Minnesota judge ordered that footage from cameras worn by two officers be publicly released. Here’s what that footage tells us. These videos include graphic imagery.

www.nytimes.com

​

Mr. Lane’s and Mr. Kueng’s videos provide the first clear evidence of the time Mr. Chauvin places his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck, changing the widely known narrative that Mr. Chauvin held his knee there for eight minutes and 46 seconds. Prosecutors initially gave this duration, then changed it to seven minutes and 46 seconds. The footage shows that neither were correct: Mr. Chauvin actually keeps his knee on Mr. Floyd’s neck from 8:19 until 8:28 p.m., for a total of nine minutes and 30 seconds. That is nearly two minutes more than the prosecutors’ amended time.​

And? None of this proves this killed Floyd.

Doesn't matter. There was no Edema in his body, which would have revealed an overdose of Fentanyl.

My argument is not overdose. My argument is that the drugs made him emotionally and physiologically distraught and highly stressed - or at least heightened his distress - and possibly triggered a heart attack

I have a good idea. His left knee was on Floyd's neck. His torso was wrongly positioned above Floyd. Means a good portion of half his torso weight was on Floyd's neck. At times, his left foot even came off the ground, so all of Chauvin's left side was on Floyd's neck when he did that.

You’re giving me circumstantial evidence of his knee improperly placed on Floyd’s neck, not proof that this killed him.

What does that have to do with your uncorroborated suggestion that Floyd could have died from being paranoid?

Didn’t say he died from being paranoid. Don’t be an idiot.

Already addressed.

And still no signs of asphyxiation.

He wasn't innocent. He negligently applied pressure to a man's neck for 9.5 minutes.

This only makes him guilty of improperly applied restraint technique, not murder.

And Chauvin remained on his neck for a couple of minutes after Floyd died. That's negligence.

Did he know Floyd had died? For that matter, did he know Floyd was dying before he did?

If that were the case then I would understand your point.

Two ME's determined his death was a homicide, not an accident and not a suicide.

I understand this. It doesn’t change the fact that everybody was screaming bloody murder before anything had been determined.

I’m betting that you and everyone here debating me on this topic thought Chauvin was guilty before the trial and maybe even before the autopsy.
I know a lot of people did yet no one here has grasped the irony and hypocrisy of people declaring Chauvin guilty before the trial while criticizing those who opine innocence after the trial.

Most importantly, everyone has made this about race when there is no indication race was a factor other than that Floyd happened to be black and Chauvin happened to be white.

Your opinion is noted.

You know as well as I do there would have been massive riots if Chauvin were acquitted.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

I read the article you linked to you moron. That's why I asked you to provide the specific part you're referring to. Here is a quote from your link.

Medical examiner: No pressure on Floyd autopsy report

Dr. Andrew Baker, Hennepin County’s chief medical examiner, said Floyd died after police “subdual, restraint and neck compression” caused his heart and lungs to stop. He said heart disease and drug use were factors but not the “top line” causes. He said Floyd had an enlarged heart that needed more oxygen than normal, as well as narrowed arteries.

It also says prosecutors were “unhappy” that he hadn’t included neck compression. They criticized him for it.

Thao’s attorney, Robert Paule, asked Tuesday whether Baker was pressured into listing “neck compression” as a factor in his autopsy report. Baker testified that he told prosecutors on the day of Floyd’s autopsy that there was no physical evidence of asphyxia, or insufficient oxygen. Prosecutors put that information in their initial complaint against Chauvin, and listed existing health conditions, police restraint and potential intoxicants as contributing factors.

Your own link refers back to statements the initial prosecutor put in their charging document, not the M.E. What does that charging document say about the autopsy? It says,

You keep harping about the charging document. I never said anything about that.

The Hennepin County Medical Examiner(ME) conducted Mr. Floyd's autopsy on May 26, 2020. The full report of the ME is pending but the ME has made the following preliminary findings. The autopsy revealed no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation. Mr. Floyd had underlying health conditions including coronary artery disease and hypertensive heart disease. The combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death.

Right there in that charging document it talks about these being preliminary findings and not the conclusions of the final autopsy.

Again, I never said shit about the charging document.

It was. Your own damn link from post #612 refers to preliminary findings you illiterate fucktard.

So now you understand that neck compression was added later, yes?

The M.E. didn't put it in there you moron, the prosecutor did. The document is signed by the prosecutor not the M.E. I'll put the link to the charging document below. You tell me where you see the M.E.'s signature on it.

Read the autopsy report.

https://int.nyt.com/data/documenthe...d9e96e708a9b0c8ba58/optimized/full.pdf#page=1

Yet what you think occurred between the prosecutor and M.E. is blatantly wrong. Your own link refers to a charging document that says the information being presented in it is preliminary.

And they pressured him to add neck compression.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

You can’t answer the simple question because even you understand how stupid it sounds. It’s a stupid fucking argument, like I’ve told you from the beginning.

You’re actually stupid enough to argue that you believe you’re right and the medical examiner is wrong, despite the fact that you have no fucking knowledge of pathology. That’s beyond retarded. So retarded that even you can’t attempt to justify it. Congratulations.

You can rant and rave all you want but you’re not getting an answer to your question until you tell me why his knowledge is relevant to my argument that he erred in judgment from being under pressure, not for lack of competence.

Also, your opinion that I’m lying is just that: opinion. You expect me to answer a question on your terms and on your premise based on an opinion you can’t prove.

That ain’t happenin’.

In the meantime, my argument remains the same.