Muslims are our friends but Islam is the enemy of Western Civilization?

[Foxfyre]

I guess this is where we are different, I won't kill someone who insults Christians or Jesus.

And I believe you would not have any problem with Muslims displaying their crescent moon and star, displaying an Islamic name on a highly visible mosque, or distributing pamphlets or otherwise inviting folks to come to the mosque. The Jewish synagogue would be a welcome addition to almost any community. A Buddhist temple would be a-okay. Live and let live. That is the common Christian way almost everywhere. Also the usual Jewish way or Buddhist way.

But in almost all Islamic countries you would not be able to display a Christian cross, put a Christian name on a church, or use ANY means to invite non-Christian folks to come to church. The Star of David would likely be even more forbidden.

And it is difficult to think the same would not be the case if Muslims gained a significant majority in the UK or France or Belgium or the USA.

I'm still waiting for Sunniman or any of our Muslim friends to dispute that.

I feel no animosity for Sunniman nor any other Muslims, but nobody has given me ANY reason yet to think that Islam is not a threat to Western Civilization as we know it.

Well it depends on what Islamic country you go to, in Syria and Lebanon they actually have large Christian populations and they have Churches, Lebanon used to be 80% Christian at 1 point. But in Saudi Arabia they have no Churches and it is illegal to display anything un Islamic, anyone caught practicing their faith in the presence of Muslims is arrested. Its that kind of intolerance that irks non Muslims and they don't want it. Christians definently have targets on their back in certain Muslim countries now, particularly in Iraq, Egypt, Nigeria and Pakistan. Too bad no high ranking Muslim scholar is speaking out against it. If Muslims were being slaughtered here in the States or in England all hell would be breaking loose.

Yes, I have worked directly with missionaries in Indonesia, Turkey, Iraq, and the Sudan. In all places Christianity is left pretty much alone UNLESS it becomes openly visible or Christians are caught distributing Bibles or 'proselyting'. Then it isn't so friendly. And in many (most?) Islamic nations, Christians are expected to respect Islamic traditions and customs - head scarfs and such. They are not required to affirm devotion to Allah or anything like that but they also cannot openly testify to their own faith.

Even in modern Communist China--not that China is Islamc--the Church is tolerated in small quantities. Congregations that become too large or too visible are broken up.

It's all in recognizing God given unalienable rights and freedom to think, speak, or affirm whatever you wish so long as you don't violate the rights of others. It is that in Western Civilization that I think is most at risk.

And if I'm wrong about that, then I'm wrong. But nobody yet has given me any reason to believe that I am.

 

[High_Gravity]

And I believe you would not have any problem with Muslims displaying their crescent moon and star, displaying an Islamic name on a highly visible mosque, or distributing pamphlets or otherwise inviting folks to come to the mosque. The Jewish synagogue would be a welcome addition to almost any community. A Buddhist temple would be a-okay. Live and let live. That is the common Christian way almost everywhere. Also the usual Jewish way or Buddhist way.

But in almost all Islamic countries you would not be able to display a Christian cross, put a Christian name on a church, or use ANY means to invite non-Christian folks to come to church. The Star of David would likely be even more forbidden.

And it is difficult to think the same would not be the case if Muslims gained a significant majority in the UK or France or Belgium or the USA.

I'm still waiting for Sunniman or any of our Muslim friends to dispute that.

I feel no animosity for Sunniman nor any other Muslims, but nobody has given me ANY reason yet to think that Islam is not a threat to Western Civilization as we know it.

Well it depends on what Islamic country you go to, in Syria and Lebanon they actually have large Christian populations and they have Churches, Lebanon used to be 80% Christian at 1 point. But in Saudi Arabia they have no Churches and it is illegal to display anything un Islamic, anyone caught practicing their faith in the presence of Muslims is arrested. Its that kind of intolerance that irks non Muslims and they don't want it. Christians definently have targets on their back in certain Muslim countries now, particularly in Iraq, Egypt, Nigeria and Pakistan. Too bad no high ranking Muslim scholar is speaking out against it. If Muslims were being slaughtered here in the States or in England all hell would be breaking loose.

Yes, I have worked directly with missionaries in Indonesia, Turkey, Iraq, and the Sudan. In all places Christianity is left pretty much alone UNLESS it becomes openly visible or Christians are caught distributing Bibles or 'proselyting'. Then it isn't so friendly. And in many (most?) Islamic nations, Christians are expected to respect Islamic traditions and customs - head scarfs and such. They are not required to affirm devotion to Allah or anything like that but they also cannot openly testify to their own faith.

Even in modern Communist China--not that China is Islamc--the Church is tolerated in small quantities. Congregations that become too large or too visible are broken up.

It's all in recognizing God given unalienable rights and freedom to think, speak, or affirm whatever you wish so long as you don't violate the rights of others. It is that in Western Civilization that I think is most at risk.

And if I'm wrong about that, then I'm wrong. But nobody yet has given me any reason to believe that I am.

Well in China the state just doesn't tolerate religion that much, even the Muslim Chinese communities get a hard time for their beliefs. The wierd thing is decades ago most Muslims countries had Muslims, Jews, and Christians living side by side. Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Libya, Kuwait etc. most places had that, and now whenever you look on the news Christians are being killed in the streets and the Jews were chased out long ago.

You are right, if you go to a Muslim country, you are expected to respect the law of the land and obey it, if you try to question it and ask for special treatment you will be thrown in jail. Maybe we should take a page out of their book in regards to whats expected of our guests.

 

[Foxfyre]

Maybe we should take a page out of their book in regards to whats expected of our guests.

Only in behavior that treads on the rights of others I think.

Well I think most polite people do respect the customs and protocol of the country they are visiting or move to. But, unless it is a security concern or violates the law re public decency, we allow people to dress however they wish here. Burkas, skullcaps, saris, or any other ethnic or religious garb is okay on the public streets. I do have problems with those who come here expecting us to modify or give up our customs and traditions in favor of theirs though.

So while I respect an Islamic country's requirement for a certain dress code when I visit there, I don't want it imposed by law into in my own western civilization culture. Our mode of dress here is dictated by fashion trends and what is appropriate for a particular place or event. Ditto for dietary customs and requirements. Ditto if I choose to have a glass of wine at dinner or a cold beer on a summer day. Or any other freedoms that we 'westerners' cherish and hold dear.

 

[Sunni Man]

So while I respect an Islamic country's requirement for a certain dress code when I visit there, I don't want it imposed by law into in my own western civilization culture. Our mode of dress here is dictated by fashion trends and what is appropriate for a particular place or event. Ditto for dietary customs and requirements. Ditto if I choose to have a glass of wine at dinner or a cold beer on a summer day. Or any other freedoms that we 'westerners' cherish and hold dear.

In countries that have a large Christian populations; Turkey, Egypt, and Pakistan, for example.

Christians are allowed to drink, go to dance clubs, dress in western clothes, eat pork etc.

 

[gautama]

I didn't duck any question that I am aware of.


Pure nonsense.

We are not at war.

There is No scripture in the Quran that would reward me for killing any of you.

Where do you come up with this stuff??

From you just yesterday when you supported those who bomb, kill, behead, or punish somebody because he 'insulted' Mohammed or Allah. I believe you referred to us Christians as 'wimps' because we did not do the same.

And you ignored the second part of the question which was: "Or if we did not resist, you would be following the teachings of Islam by requiring us to respect and obey Allah?"

and

"That after all is the basic summation of the thesis of this thread. That Islam, given opportunity to do so, is required to destroy Western civilization and put it under the authority of Allah."

Please cite the specific passage of the Qu'ran, included among all the Qu'ran, that would make that last statement in error.

I guess this is where we are different, I won't kill someone who insults Christians or Jesus.

What you religious folk simply don't understand......and as long you are religious you never will.....is that the Organized Religions of the World (and probably all others) are DELUSIONS !!!

There isn't any ABSOLUTE PROOF that there is a "GOD".

The Greatest Minds in the History of Mankind UNANIMOUSLY agree (by force of logic) that it is IMPOSSIBLE to prove the existence or non-existence of "God".

Call the Chairman of the Dept of Philosophy in any recognized University of the World, and regardless of the Religion held by that person.......he/she will reiterate the findings of the Greatest Minds in the History of Mankind which I have stated above.

THE REALITY IS, RELIGION CAN ONLY BE ACCEPTED ON FAITH......whether you personally think your "god" can be proven or not.

Even the Catholic Church admits that Religion is based on FAITH.

So, without the PROOF of the EXISTENCE of "GOD" (or the non-existence), this possibly NON-EXISTENT "GOD" IN ALL OF THE "Organized Religions of the Word"............REQUIRES ALL OF ITS FOLLOWERS TO BELIEVE IN THE MOST BIZARRE, UNREALISTIC THINGS.

You don't think so ?

NAME ANY RELIGION, and the opponent of that Religion will find, what they will believe as RIDICULOUSLY IDIOTIC CONCEPTS THAT LIE AT THE CORE OF THE OTHER RELIGION.

Example: the Non-Muslim may first question the concoction of a Religion by a HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED blood-thirsty Psycho, Mohammed, who is a MASS MURDERER, THIEF, and a PEDOPHILIC RAPIST !!!

Not only that, the UNDISPUTABLE, CLEARLY ENUNCIATED FIRST AND MOST IMPORTANT GOAL OF THIS PSYCHO MOHAMMED'S INSTRUCTION IN THE QU'RAN IS (paraphrased, no doubt): "MAKE THE WORLD THE CALIPHATE OF ISLAM, preferably by word......BY SWORD, IF NECESSARY."

On the other hand, the Muslims, would consider the bizarre belief of the Catholics that "GOD" comes in "three parts in one": The Dad, the Son, & Gasper (the Holy Ghost). "How the hell can anyone prove this fantasy" they will correctly ask. Or, "a "Virgin" giving birth to a son, and STILL not be a "Virgin".......isn't that like saying A is not equal to A ...... a basic contradiction in logic ??? And, those much vaunted "miracles" ????? WTF kind of ridiculous crap is that.....how can anyone prove that arid nonsense without one verifiable miracle in the last ~2000 years......and so on.

And, my point to ALL of you Delusional Religious joes is this: The prayers to your "GOD" have the same statistical positive result as praying to the nearest rock in your garden.......AND YET YOU STILL PRAY...... NOW WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU DO THAT ????? CAN'T YOU LEARN FROM EXPERIENCE THAT YOUR PRAYING TO YOUR GOD IS BULLSHIT ?!?!?

But here is the CENTRAL POINT of MY POST: ALL RELIGIONS ARE BIZARRE DELUSIONS INCULCATED INTO YOU, and YOUR ANCESTORS FOR MILLENIA TO DO "GOOD" (according to the formula concocted by your specific Religion) BECAUSE IF YOU FOLLOW THAT "FORMULA" YOU WILL GO TO HEAVEN AND ENJOY ETERNAL ( pleasurable word in this case) JOY.....Mohammed spiced that up for his imagineless idiots with "humping 72 virgins and getting wasted on hash").....and if you piss off your "GOD" you will suffer UNIMAGINABLE PAIN.....ETERNALLY (very, very, fearful word in this case) !!!

And so......It is crystal clear that you Religious folk....whether you admit it or not.....ARE SCARED SHITLESS ABOUT NOT BELIEVING IN A "GOD"........ANY FUCKING "GOD" !!! Because, who the fuck wants to chance ETERNAL DAMNATION !!!

THUS, YOU ARE,UNDERSTANDABLY, COMMITTED TO YOUR "GOD"......AND, DEPENDING ON HOW STRONG YOUR BELIEF...... YOU WOULD PROTECT YOUR "GOD".

WELL, the very Religious among you, the fucking fanatics, will DO ANYTHING to protect their "GOD".

NO SACRIFICE OR DEED IS TOO SMALL TO PROTECT AND/OR GLOIRIFY THEIR FUCKING "GOD" !!!

And, so.... REALISTICALLY.......one can easily see the DILEMMA you folks in this thread are babbling about.

BUT.......IT AINT A "DILEMMA" !!!!

RELIGIONS ARE DELUSIONS......OUT AND OUT FANTASIES GROUNDED IN MYTHOLOGICAL BULLSHIT AND REPLICATING THE SAME !!!!

And, you Religious folks are splitting hairs wondering: "WhyTF do the Christians fuck up thisa & thata (and they sure did in Medieval Times)......and, the fucking Muslims wonder: "WhyTF doesn't everyone believe like us ????. And, "what's wrong with us wanting to belittle you, treat our women like cattle, grab you by the beard and smack you around.....even kill you.....if you don't believe in the words of a MASS MURDERER, THIEF and a PEDOPHILIC RAPIST ?!?!?

Some chap, apparently one of you delusional Christians, stated that he wouldn't kill anyone for insulting God, or Jesus......in response to Phoni-Baloni-Sunni's indication or implication that he would.

What both of you don't see is this: RELIGIONS ARE DELUSIONS

DELUSIONS ARE DANGEROUS ..... THEY TAKE YOU INTO A DANGEROUS BIZARRE WORLD WHERE RATIONAL THINKING.....BY DEFINITION ....IS NON-EXISTENT !!!

So all this BULLSHIT you religious folk are babbling about have the OBVIOUS RATIONAL ANSWERS LIKE: you don't kill anyone for his beliefs....or non-beliefs.

THIS IS AS PLAIN AS THE NOSE ON YOUR FACE if you just throw your RELIGIOUS PRECONCEPTIONS INTO THE NEAREST GARBAGE CAN !!!!!

Consider the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS THAT DIED HIDEOUSLY AT EACH OTHER'S HANDS AS THEY SLAUGHTERED EACH OTHER IN THE NAME OF RELIGION DURING THE CRUSADES.......OR THE OTTOMAN TURKS !!!!!!

Consider the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF CHRISTIANS (both Catholics and Protestants) WHO TORTURED AND MURDERED EACH OTHER AND USUALLY DIED IN UNBELIEVABLE PAIN......IN THE NAME OF THEIR OWN "VERSION" OF RELIGION !!!!

Consider the THOUSANDS of so-called "HERETICS" That Savanarola and his Merry Bunch of Jesuits TORTURED TO DEATH WITH UNIMAGINABLE CRUELTY..... EACH OUTDOING EACH OTHER IN CREATING MORE PAINFUL DEATHS.......while Popey-Dopey looked the other way. And, don't for an instance think that the Popey-Dopey didn't give his tacit approval because that was his business.....and those psychos were his underlings !!!

BOTTOM LINE: DO YOU THINK ALL THESE TORTURED AND HEINOUSLY MURDERED PEOPLE WOULDN'T BE BETTER OFF WITHOUT YOUR RELIGIOUS BULLSHIT ?!?!?

PS: Don't get me wrong, I think Religion does a helluva lot of good. BUT RELIGION IS A DELUSION......AND IT DOES A LOT OF HARM AS WELL. There are probably millions of people who wished to hell there was never such a thing as RELIGION

 

[Sunni Man]

Gautama, the State Hospital called.

They want their straight jacket back.

 

[gautama]

Gautama, the State Hospital called.

They want their straight jacket back.

Phoni-Baloni- Sunni,

Yeah, they did give me a strait jacket for you.....but I can't locate you...so I'm returning it ASAP.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

And you ignored the second part of the question which was: "Or if we did not resist, you would be following the teachings of Islam by requiring us to respect and obey Allah?"

Both Christians and Jews are called "People of the Book" (Bible) in the Quran.

We are to respect them as such; and expect them to do the same.

Verse 2:256 in the Quran says that no one is to be forced to change their religion.

So no, Christians and Jews are not expected to obey Allah.

Qur'an 2:256—"There is no compulsion in religion";

I dont know why you persist on posting what you know not to be true when you know your deception will be exposed in rather short order

[al-Tawbah 9:29]

And it was proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) accepted the jizyah from the Magians, but it was not proven that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) or his companions (may Allaah be pleased with them) accepted the jizyah from anyone except the three groups mentioned above.

The basic principle concerning that is the words of Allaah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, i.e. worshipping others besides Allaah), and the religion (worship) will all be for Allaah Alone [in the whole of the world]”

[al-Anfaal 8:39]

“Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikoon (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush. But if they repent [by rejecting Shirk (polytheism) and accept Islamic Monotheism] and perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allaah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful”

[al-Tawbah 9:5]

This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword).

These and similar verses abrogate the verses which say that there is no compulsion to become Muslim.

And Allaah is the Source of strength.
Islam Question and Answer - There is no compulsion to accept Islam

 

[Sunni Man]

Fitnuts, you are the one practicing deception.

You know fully well that these verses were only for a specific time, during a specific war.

They only apply to then; and have no meaning once that particular war was over.

And certainly do not apply in any way, shape, or form, to the people of today.


Plus, as you know also, abrogation in the western way of thinking.

Is not the way it is ment to be understood Islamically.

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia disagrees .

No, I am not an expert on Islam.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2797867-post49.html

 

[Ropey]

I don't believe Sunni Man can be this lost. He must be trolling. I am starting to see what others are saying.

Trolls don't even believe what they say. This is what I am learning.

Islam means a different thing when they say peace also.

What is peace in Islamic terms Sunni Man.

 

[gautama]

I don't believe Sunni Man can be this lost. He must be trolling. I am starting to see what others are saying.

Trolls don't even believe what they say. This is what I am learning.

Islam means a different thing when they say peace also.

What is peace in Islamic terms Sunni Man.

The way Phoni-Balon--Sunni twists and turns justifies obvious lies then turns around and pours the "smoke & mirrors" on the issue as with the concept that "Islam is OK with other Religions existing alongside with it" ....... is beyond belief.

This legitimately raises the question whether he literally believes that we must be stone cold STUPID and he can convince us of the righteousness of that RIDICULOUS ISLAM......or.....and I did raise the possibility in some other post .....that he is a very wise man with a fantastic sense of humour and that his OBVIOUS CRAPPOLA is a HOAX !!!

 

[Sunni Man]

The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia disagrees .

No, I am not an expert on Islam.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2797867-post49.html

How is what I said a lie?

And why do you just quote one sentence of my two sentence response?

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

The Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia disagrees .

No, I am not an expert on Islam.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2797867-post49.html

How is what I said a lie?

And why do you just quote one sentence of my two sentence response?

I did not accuse you of lying. I just provided a link back to your statement.
The fact is, you are not an expert on Islam .
I can assure you the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia is and he says you are wrong.

 

[Sunni Man]

The fact is, you are not an expert on Islam .
I can assure you the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia is and he says you are wrong.

Then you agree with him when he says that Islam is a religion of Peace?

And also says;

"Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia: Everybody’s Duty to Condemn Terrorist Organizations"

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[Mr.Fitnah]

The fact is, you are not an expert on Islam .
I can assure you the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia is and he says you are wrong.

Then you agree with him when he says that Islam is a religion of Peace?

And also says;

"Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia: Everybody’s Duty to Condemn Terrorist Organizations"

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Where does he say Islam is a religion of peace?

As for the Conflict between Al Qeada and the Saudis Both have a legitimate argument .

 

[Mr.Fitnah]

In anycase, as far as the abrogated verse 2:256 the Mufti provides the proof.

 

[Sunni Man]

Where does he say Islam is a religion of peace?

Grand mufti denounces terrorism

"He said that Islam condemned an act that was aimed at creating anarchy in a society. “Being the religion of peace, it calls for an end to cruelty and defiance. Allah has called Muslims the best Ummah on the face of the earth and he who kills a Muslim deliberately would be sent to hell,” Mufti Abdullah said.

Grand mufti denounces terrorism – The Express Tribune

 

[Sunni Man]

In anycase, as far as the abrogated verse 2:256 the Mufti provides the proof.

Nope.

The Oxford Dictionary is still western explanations based on western thought.

And is not Islamically correct; or has anything to do with the Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia

 

[José]

Originally posted by Sunni Man
In countries that have a large Christian populations; Turkey, Egypt, and Pakistan, for example.

Christians are allowed to drink, go to dance clubs, dress in western clothes, eat pork etc.

Some theocratic governments are more oppressive than others, no doubt about it, but they all fail to treat their religious and secular citizens/religious minorities as equal before the law by favoring one religion over all the others (otherwise it would be a secular state not a theocracy).

"Theocracy" is just a fancy name political scientists made up to designate religious dictatorships.