Must we thank (1) Jefferson’s God, or (2) Trump’s God or (3) no God or (4) or just the founders themselves

[AMart]

You posted speculation.

 

[elektra]

How does it destroy my premise. Jefferson says Jesus is human - like all of us - just human

It destroys your premise because you are so wrong ypu can not comment on what jefferson stated and that I quoted.

It destroys your premise so conclusively, that you must set up a strawman argument, a diversion, pretend something else was said, something else was posted.


To Doctor Benjamin Rush Washington, April 21, 1803... I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other.

 

[elektra]

NFBW: That is Jefferson’s description of Jesus which makes him a disciple of that Jesus. now you say it is not a description of Jesus which would make Jefferson not a Christian and not a disciple of your version of Jesus END2210091744

Jefferson’s Jesus in Jefferson’s words:

I, too, have made a wee-little book from the same materials, which I call the Philosophy of Jesus; it is a paradigma of his doctrines, made by cutting the texts out of the book, and arranging them on the pages of a blank book, in a certain order of time or subject. A more beautiful or precious morsel of ethics I have never seen; it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature.

Jeffetson is not describing jesus here, as you claim. You are now cut/pasting so fast that you dont read, you just believe you got the right result from your search.


What you state does not reflect your cut/paste

Really, must you make me call you stupid?

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Jeffetson is not describing jesus here, as you claim.

NFBW: Now you say Jefferson is not describing Jesus here, where he says, “ it is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus,” . who is Jefferson describing? END2210100014

 

[NotfooledbyW]

elektra

It destroys your premise because you are so wrong ypu can not comment on what jefferson stated and that I quoted.

NFBW: I am commenting on what jefferson stated and plus what I quoted. You cut and pasted what Jefferson said in 1803 and I challenged you on that. Part of my challenge was to show you what Jefferson was saying in 1816 that he was a real Christian and tells us exactly what a real Christian is,, My facts do not fear absurdity or lack of memory plus it is all on the record here thanks to you so carelessly. END2210100040

 

[elektra]

elektra

NFBW: I am commenting on what jefferson stated and plus what I quoted. You cut and pasted what Jefferson said in 1803 and I challenged you on that. Part of my challenge was to show you what Jefferson was saying in 1816 that he was a real Christian and tells us exactly what a real Christian is,, My facts do not fear absurdity or lack of memory plus it is all on the record here thanks to you so carelessly. END2210100040

Yes, your premise is false, cheery picking what Jefferson wrote and posting what his enemies said.

Jefferson is a Christian, we not only have his writing, but we see all his good christian dèeds he did for everyone in our country.

To Doctor Benjamin Rush Washington, April 21, 1803... I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Yes, your premise is false, cheery picking what Jefferson wrote and posting what his enemies said.

NFBW : actually you are a malignant cherry picker because you have picked a piece of two written statements from Jefferson out of tens of thousands of written statements while aborting the context in which those two statements were written.

You are at least sympathetic (if not a full blown sin and salvation Jesus believer) to the corrupted Christianity which was the religion that Jefferson deplored and the religion of Jesus that built the dogmatic fortresses (churches and Cathedrals) where Jefferson’s enemies held up.

Yes I quote Jefferson’s enemies because they are you. The Director of divinity I cite lived through the founding era - he is a Christian defining what being a Christian meant when Jefferson was considered an infidel by practicing Christians who worried about God’s wrath coming down on the new nation.

Mr. Jefferson, the successor of Mr. Adams, was an avowed infidel, and notoriously addicted to immorality. To the common decency of Washington’s or Adams’ moral deportment, he had no pretensions. His Notes on Virginia contain very satisfactory evidence, that the author, when he composed that work, was an enemy to revealed religion, and a virulent foe to the Church of God. Had the people of the United States known the immorality of his private life, and the scorn with which he treated the religion of Jesus; it is surely impossible that he could have been elected to the first office in their gift.[8] - 1832 James Renwick Willson, a Reformed Presbyterian minister author of [135] "Prince Messiah's Claims to Dominion Over All Governments".​

​

END2210100922

 

[elektra]

NFBW : actually you are a malignant cherry picker because you have picked a piece of two written statements from Jefferson out if tens of thousands of written statements while aborting the context in which those two statements were written.

You are at least sympathetic (if not a full blown sin and salvation Jesus believer) to the corrupted Christianity which was the religion that Jefferson deplored and built the fortresses (churches and Cathedrals) where Jefferson’s enemies held up.

Yes I quote Jefferson’s enemies because they are you. The Director of divinity I cite lived through the founding era - he is a Christian defining what being a Christian meant when Jefferson was considered an infidel by practicing Christians who worried about God’s wrath coming down on the new nation.

Mr. Jefferson, the successor of Mr. Adams, was an avowed infidel, and notoriously addicted to immorality. To the common decency of Washington’s or Adams’ moral deportment, he had no pretensions. His Notes on Virginia contain very satisfactory evidence, that the author, when he composed that work, was an enemy to revealed religion, and a virulent foe to the Church of God. Had the people of the United States known the immorality of his private life, and the scorn with which he treated the religion of Jesus; it is surely impossible that he could have been elected to the first office in their gift.[8] - 1832 James Renwick Willson, a Reformed Presbyterian minister author of [135] "Prince Messiah's Claims to Dominion Over All Governments".​

​

END2210100922

Yes, Jefferson made a lot of religous enemies when he gave them zero power in government. Jefferson's enemies do not define who Jefferson is.

To Doctor Benjamin Rush Washington, April 21, 1803... I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; and believing he never claimed any other

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Yes, Jefferson made a lot of religous enemies when he gave them zero power in government. Jefferson's enemies do not define who Jefferson is.

NFBW: Therefore Jefferson was elected by Christ neutral voters and presided over a Christian neutral National government. There is no way America was founded as a Christian nation. It took a while for you to figure it out - but I guess miracles happen - ye have learned the truth. END2210100953

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Jefferson's enemies do not define who Jefferson is.

NFBW: But you elektra take ten words that he wrote out of context and you define Jefferson to be a white Christian nationalist who founded a white protestant Christian nation and was a very good Christian because he treated his slaves nicely. 2210100045

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Yes, Jefferson made a lot of religous enemies when he gave them zero power in government.

NFBW: That is exactly what I have been telling you. God has no role in government; Christianity has no role in government. thanks to Washington, Adam’s, Jefferson and Madison

And because you want me to believe Jefferson was a good Christian because of his deeds, and one of his deeds was to make certain all Christians and all religions have zero power in the government he helped create, you should agree with me not white Christian nationalists like Trump and Mashmont. Trump promised white Christian nationalists “power” if they vote for him in the GOP primary. That goes against Jefferson who opposed Christians and any other religious group of having preferential power or status from within the government. END2210101553

 

[NotfooledbyW]

The religious belief’s of the founding fathers are tied to the politics of abortion

elektra220503-#63 “Abortion is murder if there is a heartbeat”

electra221002-#496 “Our [sp] laws are based on biblical laws”

NFBW: Is your post #63 a Biblical Law, @electra that is based on your belief that America was founded as a Christian nation by Biblical white men devoted to Jesus Christ as you claim in your post #496 ? END2210101728

 

[NotfooledbyW]

elektra160220-#117 I never argued that we got rid of Saddam because he was bad. Had I been asked I would of stated we got rid of Saddam because he refused to abide the terms of his surrender. That by not abiding by the terms of his Surrender, Saddam was still at war.”

NFBW: Just an observation here about all the books in elektra ’s personal library did not enable him to know why Bush decided to invade Iraq based on the lie that he had intelligence on March 17 2003 that Iraq was hiding WMD from UN RES1441 inspectors. The truth evaded elektra even after Trump
explained that Bush lied us into war about the WMD being there.

This is relevant to this thread because it was the evangelical Christians that goaded W into invading Iraq even if he had to lie to justify it. Befire that lying was not a Christian trait. Now look at Trump Christians - lying is an art. END2210102020

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You posted speculation.

I posted contemporary commentary by a Doctor of Divinity and practicing Christian which is corroborated with Washington’s biography. Scholars use such information to produce an accurate picture of Washington’s religion and the consensus is he was a rational theist and a Freemason. He never professed his personal belief in the divinity of Christ. END221010-2041

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Jefferson is a Christian,

in the only sense

That Jesus is only human, a mere mortal, and not the Son of God and not the 2nd person in a Holy Trinity.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

DriftingSand140501-#23 “The Christian founders wrote into our Constitution ideals that were based on their Christian faith. They taught that God, not man, defines what our God-given rights are.”


NFBW: If they all had Christian “faith” however DriftingSand wishes to haphazardly define “Christian Faith” - does everyone understand and agree that when our rational theist first four presidents taught that God, not man, defines our rational theist god given rights, they were simultaneously teaching the world that our god given rights come from a god that does not demand obedience or reverence or appreciation or church service in the way the Judeo-Christian Biblical Catholic and Protestant God did for thousands of years prior to the Declaration of Independence. Our founders thus gave us independence from the spiritual mind control with government assistance of any God or religious belief. We were given freedom of conscience and in many ways we have blown it with decisions like Dobbs by Catholic justices who do not respect the freedom of conscience that our founders made into law.


The religious belief’s of the founding fathers are tied to the politics of abortion


So elektra you are wrong about my premise on this thread. END221011-0841

 

[elektra]

DriftingSand140501-#23 “The Christian founders wrote into our Constitution ideals that were based on their Christian faith. They taught that God, not man, defines what our God-given rights are.”


NFBW: If they all had Christian “faith” however DriftingSand wishes to haphazardly define “Christian Faith” - does everyone understand and agree that when our rational theist first four presidents taught that God, not man, defines our rational theist god given rights, they were simultaneously teaching the world that our god given rights come from a god that does not demand obedience or reverence or appreciation or church service in the way the Judeo-Christian Biblical Catholic and Protestant God did for thousands of years prior to the Declaration of Independence. Our founders thus gave us independence from the spiritual mind control with government assistance of any God or religious belief. We were given freedom of conscience and in many ways we have blown it with decisions like Dobbs by Catholic justices who do not respect the freedom of conscience that our founders made into law.


The religious belief’s of the founding fathers are tied to the politics of abortion


So elektra you are wrong about my premise on this thread. END221011-0841

You have not proved premise.

And, the Dobbs decision has nothing to do with Christianity.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You have not proved premise.

NFBW: That is no argument against the premise. What precisely makes you say that?

And, the Dobbs decision has nothing to do with Christianity.

NFBW: The promotion of banning abortion federally and at the state level in America today comes mostly from specific groups of professing Christian’s and non-Christian Republicans who need white Christian Republicans who are obsessed with the sin of abortion and giving state control of uteruses, because they know it is necessary and the only culture war issue to keep the political party of Republicans viable in an ever decreasing white majority of America.

Therefore polity to secure his mostly white evangelical Christian and anti-abortion Catholic base, Trump placed three Catholics on the Supreme Court and the only law that says life begins at conception is Catholic law. Those three new activist Catholic Justices made it possible for Roe v Wade to be overturned. FACTS. END2210111143

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You have not proved premise.

NFBW: Were we not given freedom of conscience by our founding fathers which includes the freedom not to believe in every Tom, Preacher Dick, and Pope Harry selling their secret snake oil formula for personal access to always the one and only true God. END2210111154

We were given freedom of conscience and in many ways we have blown it with decisions like Dobbs by Catholic justices who do not respect the freedom of conscience that our founders made into law. They are forcing women to comply with their Catholic consciences and that is as un-American and wrong as it can get.

The religious belief’s of the founding fathers are tied to the politics of abortion


So elektra you are wrong about my premise on this thread

 

[NotfooledbyW]

You have not proved premise.

NFBW, Do you agree with DriftingSand ?

DriftingSand140501-#23 “The Christian founders wrote into our Constitution ideals that were based on their Christian faith. They taught that God, not man, defines what our God-given rights are.”

END2210110003