N. Korea fires on S. Korea - It was a clear provocation!!

[JBeukema]

Taking an honest look at average conditions in North Korea is easier to envision if you imagine all the points of South Korean light in the photo magically migrating north of the 38th parallel.

That would give an honest observer a reasonable approximation of the saturation bombing campaign conducted by the USAF during its "first war" in Korea.

By US admission we first turned every North Korean city and village into rubble and then came back and turned the rubble into pebbles. Curtis LeMay estimated we killed 20% of all human beings in North Korea.

Today the figure is widely believed to be one out of three North Koreans perished from US bombs. (I'm sure the profit margin on each bomb is only a happy capitalist coincidence, aren't you?)

.

Dude, it's been like 60 years. Why do you think they haven't rebuilt or developed?

Hint:it has something to do with batshit insane dictators

Bat-shit insanity and dictators play big roles; however, I'm not using metaphor when I say US airpower reduced North Korea to something close to stone age existence.

Imagine if some interstellar terrorists "liberate" California by killing one out of every three Americans in 2011?

Imagine they "bomb" every US city and town into rubble and then come back and pound the rubble into pebbles.

Imagine they hang out in Malibu for the next 60 years...

If there's one word we are not paying close enough attention to in this discussion of Korea, I nominate "reunification."

My second nominee would be "profits" as in the 2 - 6 trillion dollars worth of minerals locked away inside North Korea.

Japan and Europe are just fine

 

[daveman]

In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.

Some people are idiots.

Some?

Those who believe what George said, yes.

 

[daveman]

Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.

How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.

I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.

Wait until you get to Lackland, son.

And thanks for enlisting.

I wonder if there is still that strategically placed McDonalds just out side the gates by the parade grounds. I fucking hated seeing those golden arches everyday ... just out of reach.

I don't recall that...but it was almost 20 years ago.

 

[daveman]

Tunnel vision.
Keeping his eyes firmly on the money.
The $3000 a week he earned for making war movies.

Fuck you and the Gipper.

Tough talk from a guy who went home crying to mommy.

As always, George, you're wrong. Reagan did what he could given his physical limitations. And it was far more than what you accomplished in the military.

Why are you wasting time arguing with a troll?

Call me Pollyanna. I believe everyone can be redeemed. Even George.

 

[Cain]

Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.

How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.

I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.

Wait until you get to Lackland, son.

And thanks for enlisting.

Thanks, and that doesn't inspire confidence lol. It's all great though, I understand it will be the hardest thing I've ever done, that's just part of it. Keep my mouth shut is the advice everyone in my family gives me, and I plan to follow that.

 

[Sallow]

From Antiwar.com:

"Initial reports were unequivocal: those crazy North Koreans had once again broken the longstanding ceasefire and attacked the South, this time at Yeonpyeong Island, shelling civilian quarters, and killing two South Korean marines.

"A few hours later, however, a more nuanced story came out: it seems the South Koreans were conducting military 'exercises' near the disputed island, which North Korea claims as its territory, and South Korean ships had opened fire, albeit – they claim – not in the direction of the North Korean mainland.

"The North Koreans responded by taking it up a few notches, as is their wont, and opening fire on Yeonpyeong."

What were these "exercises" attempting to simulate?

"...the military exercises, code-named 'Hoguk,' involving all four branches of the South Korean armed forces and some 70,000 troops, simulated an attack on North Korea, and were meant to provoke the North Koreans, who responded as might be expected.

"US troops were supposed to have participated in the exercises, but apparently the Americans thought better of it and pulled back at the last moment – perhaps because they knew a provocation was in the making."

Korean Conundrum

Does anyone know the English translation for "Hoguk?"

What's "provocation" in Korean?

That may be the excuse.

But the real deal is blood on the beak of baby Il Jung..the 4 star General.

I don't know anything about the power structure in North Korea. Ultimate control usually belongs to high-ranking military officials in states as primitive as that one.

In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.

It's probably no accident Goldman Sachs has recently become a big player in South Korean visions of reunification.

You and just about everyone else doesn't really know who is pulling the strings in North Korea..its' pretty much an educated guess.

And I don't really go along with that assessment of the power structure in this country, although I am not naive enough to think there isn't some truth to it.

Haven't heard that about Goldman..but I can see why they are investing in South Korea. Very dynamic and "sexy" economy.

 

[Paulie]

Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.

How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.

I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.

Wait until you get to Lackland, son.

And thanks for enlisting.

Lackland is a cake walk, dude.

Follow directions and learn how to march, and you'll be fine.

 

[georgephillip]

I have a question, what is the thing about military service in question of georgephillip? I am newer here, and I do not understand what the thing about it is? I am going to be heading to BMT at the end of my last year in school, and am curious about the basic training argument?

Cain:

BMT?

Basic Military Training?

I'm not really clear on today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.

Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.

It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.

Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.

Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.

That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.

Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.

Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.

How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.

I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.

I'm pretty sure they did catch my back at the induction center, because after I got home my mom took me to a local specialist who explained the complication to us.

As I recall at that time, the Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard would discharge for conditions like mine while the Army and Marines would laugh.

About those eggs?
They were fish nets with yokes.
I blame Halliburton.

The worst eggs I've seen so far were at summer camp.
Some of the scrambled variety would actually bounce.
If you tossed those eggs toward the local squirrels, some squirrels would throw them back.

I hope you survive your tour without injuring any innocent humans including yourself.

 

[georgephillip]

The best chance for North Korea's success is reunification -- under South Korea's control.

The other way around?

The ENTIRE Korean peninsula would be dark at night.

There's certainly no shortage of devils lurking in the details of Korean reunification. I don't think the (rich) generals in either country or those in the Pentagon will tolerate either side assuming total control of the reconciliation.

It's hard for me to believe it has been only ten years since the "sunshine policy" of SK's president Kim Dae-jung "was going to succeed in preventing a catastrophic collapse of the Communist regime, a flood of refugees, or even the outbreak of war."

It's probably worth investigating whether the current president of South Korea, Lee Myung Bak's, "first act was to abolish the government department set up to facilitate national unification."

That's the claim made by Antiwar.com

The claim is true.

The ministry has been the focus of criticism throughout the administrations of the departing president, Roh Moo-hyun, and his predecessor, Kim Dae-jung.

The two leaders, promoting a so-called sunshine policy, brought about profoundly closer relations with the North, but they have been faulted for pouring aid across the border without managing to end North Korean nuclear weapons programs and human rights abuses.​

Ending the practice of flushing money down the toilet with no return is a good idea.

South Korea's Sunshine:

"The election of Mr. Lee, a conservative, on Dec. 19 ended a decade of liberal government here.

"A former chief executive of Hyundai Construction and mayor of Seoul, he has vowed to run his government like an efficient business.

"He will be sworn in as president on Feb. 25.

"Signaling the ideological shift, Mr. Lee also called for abolishing government commissions that have investigated Korean collaborators during Japanese colonial rule of the Korean Peninsula in the early 20th century and human rights abuses by past South Korean military dictators — investigations that have angered the conservatives."

The irony of conservatives.

Always ready to fault weapons programs and human rights violations of the "enemy" yet never fail to get angry when someone points out identical crimes in their closet.

Where's Curtis LeMay when you really need him?

 

[georgephillip]

Dude, it's been like 60 years. Why do you think they haven't rebuilt or developed?

Hint:it has something to do with batshit insane dictators

Bat-shit insanity and dictators play big roles; however, I'm not using metaphor when I say US airpower reduced North Korea to something close to stone age existence.

Imagine if some interstellar terrorists "liberate" California by killing one out of every three Americans in 2011?

Imagine they "bomb" every US city and town into rubble and then come back and pound the rubble into pebbles.

Imagine they hang out in Malibu for the next 60 years...

If there's one word we are not paying close enough attention to in this discussion of Korea, I nominate "reunification."

My second nominee would be "profits" as in the 2 - 6 trillion dollars worth of minerals locked away inside North Korea.

Japan and Europe are just fine

Russia after WWII might provide the closest comparison to what we inflicted on North Korea. 20 - 25 million Russians died defeating Hitler, and in parts of Russia every third building was damaged or destroyed.

While Russia had to manage its own recovery, the US taxpayer was there to help Europe and Japan. The Marshall Plan for Europe in particular allowed rich Europeans to invest their own money in Wall Street while Main Street USA PAID to rebuild Europe. (Keep in mind many Europeans who held onto their money during WWII did so by collaborating with Nazis.)

For centuries before the US came into existence, Korea was known as "the Hermit Kingdom." After the beating the US/UN inflicted on North Korea in the '50s, their conservatives might have done what all conservatives do in epochs of national despair...try to return to a "safer" time in the past.

If so, they pretty much succeeded.

 

[georgephillip]

Tough talk from a guy who went home crying to mommy.

As always, George, you're wrong. Reagan did what he could given his physical limitations. And it was far more than what you accomplished in the military.

Why are you wasting time arguing with a troll?

Call me Pollyanna. I believe everyone can be redeemed. Even George.

Hey, Polly...

How about Kim Jong Un?
Or Lee Myung-Bak?
Curtis LeMay...wait..too late for his redemption.

 

[georgephillip]

That may be the excuse.

But the real deal is blood on the beak of baby Il Jung..the 4 star General.

I don't know anything about the power structure in North Korea. Ultimate control usually belongs to high-ranking military officials in states as primitive as that one.

In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.

It's probably no accident Goldman Sachs has recently become a big player in South Korean visions of reunification.

You and just about everyone else doesn't really know who is pulling the strings in North Korea..its' pretty much an educated guess.

And I don't really go along with that assessment of the power structure in this country, although I am not naive enough to think there isn't some truth to it.

Haven't heard that about Goldman..but I can see why they are investing in South Korea. Very dynamic and "sexy" economy.

Peter Lee offered this assessment last June, shortly after the Cheonon sank:

"South Korea's latest (reunification) Vision 3000 video-conference pitch was hosted by Goldman Sachs.

A high tech trends website, h+, breathlessly spun the latest reunification scenario: it will pay for itself!

"With 'change left over!'

"Just like Iraq!

More arithmetic for you:

The Rand Corporation estimates the cost of Korean reunification at $50 billion, Credit Suisse insists $1.5 trillion is the expense, and Stanford fellow Peter M. Beck posits an alarmist $2-$5 trillion.

Question: Who's got that kind of cash?

Answer: North Korean mines. 360 minerals are sequestered in the Hermit Kingdom's caves, many trapped by flooding and NK's [North Korea's] appalling infrastructure.

"Billions of tons of coal, iron, zinc, magnesite, nickel, uranium, tungsten, phosphate, graphite, gold, silver, mercury, sulfur, limestone, copper, manganese, molybdenum... worth an estimated $2-$6 trillion (Goldman Sach's figure is $2.5 trillion).

"Reunification could be entirely paid for by these mines, perhaps with change left over."

'Guess Goldman's money funnel still works.

 

[Sallow]

I don't know anything about the power structure in North Korea. Ultimate control usually belongs to high-ranking military officials in states as primitive as that one.

In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.

It's probably no accident Goldman Sachs has recently become a big player in South Korean visions of reunification.

You and just about everyone else doesn't really know who is pulling the strings in North Korea..its' pretty much an educated guess.

And I don't really go along with that assessment of the power structure in this country, although I am not naive enough to think there isn't some truth to it.

Haven't heard that about Goldman..but I can see why they are investing in South Korea. Very dynamic and "sexy" economy.

Peter Lee offered this assessment last June, shortly after the Cheonon sank:

"South Korea's latest (reunification) Vision 3000 video-conference pitch was hosted by Goldman Sachs.

A high tech trends website, h+, breathlessly spun the latest reunification scenario: it will pay for itself!

"With 'change left over!'

"Just like Iraq!

More arithmetic for you:

The Rand Corporation estimates the cost of Korean reunification at $50 billion, Credit Suisse insists $1.5 trillion is the expense, and Stanford fellow Peter M. Beck posits an alarmist $2-$5 trillion.

Question: Who's got that kind of cash?

Answer: North Korean mines. 360 minerals are sequestered in the Hermit Kingdom's caves, many trapped by flooding and NK's [North Korea's] appalling infrastructure.

"Billions of tons of coal, iron, zinc, magnesite, nickel, uranium, tungsten, phosphate, graphite, gold, silver, mercury, sulfur, limestone, copper, manganese, molybdenum... worth an estimated $2-$6 trillion (Goldman Sach's figure is $2.5 trillion).

"Reunification could be entirely paid for by these mines, perhaps with change left over."

'Guess Goldman's money funnel still works.

Hmm..didn't know that.

Just thought it was rocky and cold there.

Thanks!

 

[adeel_sami]

Gosh !!! No more war !!!!

 

[georgephillip]

Would you be interested in buying a slightly used Predator Drone?

 

[Toro]

I don't know anything about the power structure in North Korea. Ultimate control usually belongs to high-ranking military officials in states as primitive as that one.

In this country some believe the president occupies the third level of power with (mostly rich) generals and admirals at the Pentagon ruling the second level while (very rich) global bankers ultimately call the shots.

It's probably no accident Goldman Sachs has recently become a big player in South Korean visions of reunification.

You and just about everyone else doesn't really know who is pulling the strings in North Korea..its' pretty much an educated guess.

And I don't really go along with that assessment of the power structure in this country, although I am not naive enough to think there isn't some truth to it.

Haven't heard that about Goldman..but I can see why they are investing in South Korea. Very dynamic and "sexy" economy.

Peter Lee offered this assessment last June, shortly after the Cheonon sank:

"South Korea's latest (reunification) Vision 3000 video-conference pitch was hosted by Goldman Sachs.

A high tech trends website, h+, breathlessly spun the latest reunification scenario: it will pay for itself!

"With 'change left over!'

"Just like Iraq!

More arithmetic for you:

The Rand Corporation estimates the cost of Korean reunification at $50 billion, Credit Suisse insists $1.5 trillion is the expense, and Stanford fellow Peter M. Beck posits an alarmist $2-$5 trillion.

Question: Who's got that kind of cash?

Answer: North Korean mines. 360 minerals are sequestered in the Hermit Kingdom's caves, many trapped by flooding and NK's [North Korea's] appalling infrastructure.

"Billions of tons of coal, iron, zinc, magnesite, nickel, uranium, tungsten, phosphate, graphite, gold, silver, mercury, sulfur, limestone, copper, manganese, molybdenum... worth an estimated $2-$6 trillion (Goldman Sach's figure is $2.5 trillion).

"Reunification could be entirely paid for by these mines, perhaps with change left over."

'Guess Goldman's money funnel still works.

Just like the Iraqi oil fields were supposed to pay for the Iraqi invasion.

Nobody has any idea what it would cost, but it would most certainly "cost." There wouldn't be a profit.

The cost of integrating East Germany into the West was enormous, and at the time, GDP per capita in the West was about 4x-5x that of the East. South Korea's GDP per capita is 15x-20x than of the North, and the North is a basket-case compared to East Germany. East Germany was the most productive economy in the eastern bloc, achieving second world status. North Korea produces virtually nothing of value for export, and has a brow-beaten population cowed into believing that invasion is imminent. North Korea made East Germany look like Switzerland.

 

[georgephillip]

For thousands of years all governments have found ways to socialize cost and privatize profit. If there are in fact $2 - $6 trillion worth of minerals in North Korea, wouldn't a few existing private fortunes benefit immensely from their mining?

Wouldn't one or two North Korean generals get filthy rich also?

 

[Cain]

Cain:

BMT?

Basic Military Training?

I'm not really clear on today's terminology; however in March of 1966 I enlisted in the USAF and spent ten of the longest days of my life in Texas. At the time I believed the US invasion of South Vietnam was in the best interest of "freedom" and even planned on volunteering to serve there after completing basic training at Lackland AFB.

Like many others I got homesick, but unlike most others I had an abnormal curvature to my spine that might make me eligible for a medical discharge.

It "worked" and while I'm glad I didn't actively support the murders of 2-3 million Vietnamese by the US military, there were also some unintended consequences. For example, 27 years later when I was 45 and my mother died I was still living under her roof.

Had I cut the umbilical in '66 that probably would not have been the case.

Frankly, I think if I could do it all over I would have refused induction and done my time in Federal prison.

That way I could have cut my ties to home without enabling the killing of innocent human beings.

Not sure if this has answered any of your questions.
I am sure the biggest difference between my time and yours is the communication instrument we're using today.

Yes, BMT for the USAF. (I love saying that, reminds me of Good Morning Vietnam scene with all the initials). I signed a 6yr contract with them, and I went through MEPS and passed with flying colors.

How did they not catch your back at MEPS? MY godfather was drafted for Vietnam from college, but they didn't allow him to go cause he was color blind (no joke). I would think a back problem would be on the top lists. My uncle got honorable discharge for injuring his during Desert Storm.

I hated MEPS, it was the longest day of my entire life, but it wasn't all that bad. A bunch of bs about the food though. "Paid for by the US Government" and it was some of the crappiest eggs I've ever seen lol. The eggs where like fish nets with eggs in them.

I'm pretty sure they did catch my back at the induction center, because after I got home my mom took me to a local specialist who explained the complication to us.

As I recall at that time, the Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard would discharge for conditions like mine while the Army and Marines would laugh.

About those eggs?
They were fish nets with yokes.
I blame Halliburton.

The worst eggs I've seen so far were at summer camp.
Some of the scrambled variety would actually bounce.
If you tossed those eggs toward the local squirrels, some squirrels would throw them back.

I hope you survive your tour without injuring any innocent humans including yourself.

Well, I am pretty sure I'll do fine in their. I do not PLAN to injure anyone, I will defend myself if attacked, and will follow my orders. I do not know what it will be like when I finally ship out, but war is a part of the military. Part of the world.

 

[daveman]

Why are you wasting time arguing with a troll?

Call me Pollyanna. I believe everyone can be redeemed. Even George.

Hey, Polly...

How about Kim Jong Un?
Or Lee Myung-Bak?
Curtis LeMay...wait..too late for his redemption.

Looks like I was wrong. You're hopeless.

 

[georgephillip]

The Season of Hopeless is fast approaching, d-man.

Are you ready?