No Evidence

[jc456]

You believe the Earth's atmosphere is kept 33C warmer than it ought to be by pressure?

it contributes you bet.

By this statement do you mean that pressure and other processes keep the Earth 33C warmer than it ought to be?

just like convection, conduction and the jet stream.

This statement makes no sense. Convection is a heat transfer process that takes place where fluid flow is initiated by a temperature-induced density differential. In cases where an external source drives the flow, it is known as "forced convection". Conduction is the transfer of heat within a material. The jet stream is a current of air driven by the temperature differential between two air masses. None of these is a source of energy. None of them warm or cool the Earth. All thermal energy lost or gained by the Earth moves via radiation to and from space.

you know the globe gets sun all day right?

Yes, I did know that. The sun's input is taken into account in the calculation that shows the Earth to be 33C warmer than it ought to be ignoring the greenhouse effect.

So, back to pressure. If I take some air and compress it, it warms up. If I take some air and decompress it, it gets colder. You've noted that air moves around, left, right, up and down. When it moves down, it gets compressed and warms. When it moves up, it gets decompressed and cools. All the air on the planet is stuck here. It doesn't leave and no new air is coming in from space. So, while the air is all moving around hither, thither and yon, at the end of the day - every day - the total mass of the air is in the same place: wrapped around the planet, half of it squished down into the first 5,000 meters or so and the rest trailing away, thinner and thinner up 300-500 kilometers. As much air moved up as moved down. If not, the pressure here at the surface would get higher and higher or lower and lower. But it doesn't. The idea that pressure is responsible for global warming is one most sixth graders would know to reject. I strongly suggest you do the same.

global warming I don't believe in. the globe is warmed by the sun and that heat is moved around the planet due to jet streams, conduction and convection, It's how one day it is minus 28 and the next it is 40 degrees. has nothing to do with anything related to greenhouse gases. And because we have moisture in our atmosphere the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in, especially at night. like an oven, not a greenhouse.

And because we have moisture in our atmosphere the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in

Hold it in how?

slows the release of heat off the surface.

 

[Crick]

How do clouds slow the release of heat off the surface? I agree with you that they do. I am just wondering if you understand how they accomplish that.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You believe the Earth's atmosphere is kept 33C warmer than it ought to be by pressure?

it contributes you bet.

By this statement do you mean that pressure and other processes keep the Earth 33C warmer than it ought to be?

just like convection, conduction and the jet stream.

This statement makes no sense. Convection is a heat transfer process that takes place where fluid flow is initiated by a temperature-induced density differential. In cases where an external source drives the flow, it is known as "forced convection". Conduction is the transfer of heat within a material. The jet stream is a current of air driven by the temperature differential between two air masses. None of these is a source of energy. None of them warm or cool the Earth. All thermal energy lost or gained by the Earth moves via radiation to and from space.

you know the globe gets sun all day right?

Yes, I did know that. The sun's input is taken into account in the calculation that shows the Earth to be 33C warmer than it ought to be ignoring the greenhouse effect.

So, back to pressure. If I take some air and compress it, it warms up. If I take some air and decompress it, it gets colder. You've noted that air moves around, left, right, up and down. When it moves down, it gets compressed and warms. When it moves up, it gets decompressed and cools. All the air on the planet is stuck here. It doesn't leave and no new air is coming in from space. So, while the air is all moving around hither, thither and yon, at the end of the day - every day - the total mass of the air is in the same place: wrapped around the planet, half of it squished down into the first 5,000 meters or so and the rest trailing away, thinner and thinner up 300-500 kilometers. As much air moved up as moved down. If not, the pressure here at the surface would get higher and higher or lower and lower. But it doesn't. The idea that pressure is responsible for global warming is one most sixth graders would know to reject. I strongly suggest you do the same.

global warming I don't believe in. the globe is warmed by the sun and that heat is moved around the planet due to jet streams, conduction and convection, It's how one day it is minus 28 and the next it is 40 degrees. has nothing to do with anything related to greenhouse gases. And because we have moisture in our atmosphere the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in, especially at night. like an oven, not a greenhouse.

And because we have moisture in our atmosphere the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in

Hold it in how?

slows the release of heat off the surface.

slows the release of heat off the surface.

Slows the release? Does the surface know the cloud is there, somehow, and throttles back its release of heat?

 

[jc456]

You believe the Earth's atmosphere is kept 33C warmer than it ought to be by pressure?

it contributes you bet.

By this statement do you mean that pressure and other processes keep the Earth 33C warmer than it ought to be?

just like convection, conduction and the jet stream.

This statement makes no sense. Convection is a heat transfer process that takes place where fluid flow is initiated by a temperature-induced density differential. In cases where an external source drives the flow, it is known as "forced convection". Conduction is the transfer of heat within a material. The jet stream is a current of air driven by the temperature differential between two air masses. None of these is a source of energy. None of them warm or cool the Earth. All thermal energy lost or gained by the Earth moves via radiation to and from space.

you know the globe gets sun all day right?

Yes, I did know that. The sun's input is taken into account in the calculation that shows the Earth to be 33C warmer than it ought to be ignoring the greenhouse effect.

So, back to pressure. If I take some air and compress it, it warms up. If I take some air and decompress it, it gets colder. You've noted that air moves around, left, right, up and down. When it moves down, it gets compressed and warms. When it moves up, it gets decompressed and cools. All the air on the planet is stuck here. It doesn't leave and no new air is coming in from space. So, while the air is all moving around hither, thither and yon, at the end of the day - every day - the total mass of the air is in the same place: wrapped around the planet, half of it squished down into the first 5,000 meters or so and the rest trailing away, thinner and thinner up 300-500 kilometers. As much air moved up as moved down. If not, the pressure here at the surface would get higher and higher or lower and lower. But it doesn't. The idea that pressure is responsible for global warming is one most sixth graders would know to reject. I strongly suggest you do the same.

global warming I don't believe in. the globe is warmed by the sun and that heat is moved around the planet due to jet streams, conduction and convection, It's how one day it is minus 28 and the next it is 40 degrees. has nothing to do with anything related to greenhouse gases. And because we have moisture in our atmosphere the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in, especially at night. like an oven, not a greenhouse.

And because we have moisture in our atmosphere the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in

Hold it in how?

slows the release of heat off the surface.

slows the release of heat off the surface.

Slows the release? Does the surface know the cloud is there, somehow, and throttles back its release of heat?

Why would it? That’s stupid

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

By this statement do you mean that pressure and other processes keep the Earth 33C warmer than it ought to be?

This statement makes no sense. Convection is a heat transfer process that takes place where fluid flow is initiated by a temperature-induced density differential. In cases where an external source drives the flow, it is known as "forced convection". Conduction is the transfer of heat within a material. The jet stream is a current of air driven by the temperature differential between two air masses. None of these is a source of energy. None of them warm or cool the Earth. All thermal energy lost or gained by the Earth moves via radiation to and from space.

Yes, I did know that. The sun's input is taken into account in the calculation that shows the Earth to be 33C warmer than it ought to be ignoring the greenhouse effect.

So, back to pressure. If I take some air and compress it, it warms up. If I take some air and decompress it, it gets colder. You've noted that air moves around, left, right, up and down. When it moves down, it gets compressed and warms. When it moves up, it gets decompressed and cools. All the air on the planet is stuck here. It doesn't leave and no new air is coming in from space. So, while the air is all moving around hither, thither and yon, at the end of the day - every day - the total mass of the air is in the same place: wrapped around the planet, half of it squished down into the first 5,000 meters or so and the rest trailing away, thinner and thinner up 300-500 kilometers. As much air moved up as moved down. If not, the pressure here at the surface would get higher and higher or lower and lower. But it doesn't. The idea that pressure is responsible for global warming is one most sixth graders would know to reject. I strongly suggest you do the same.

global warming I don't believe in. the globe is warmed by the sun and that heat is moved around the planet due to jet streams, conduction and convection, It's how one day it is minus 28 and the next it is 40 degrees. has nothing to do with anything related to greenhouse gases. And because we have moisture in our atmosphere the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in, especially at night. like an oven, not a greenhouse.

And because we have moisture in our atmosphere the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in

Hold it in how?

slows the release of heat off the surface.

slows the release of heat off the surface.

Slows the release? Does the surface know the cloud is there, somehow, and throttles back its release of heat?

Why would it? That’s stupid

It was your stupid claim.
Feel free to dig yourself out of the hole.

 

[jc456]

global warming I don't believe in. the globe is warmed by the sun and that heat is moved around the planet due to jet streams, conduction and convection, It's how one day it is minus 28 and the next it is 40 degrees. has nothing to do with anything related to greenhouse gases. And because we have moisture in our atmosphere the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in, especially at night. like an oven, not a greenhouse.

And because we have moisture in our atmosphere the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in

Hold it in how?

slows the release of heat off the surface.

slows the release of heat off the surface.

Slows the release? Does the surface know the cloud is there, somehow, and throttles back its release of heat?

Why would it? That’s stupid

It was your stupid claim.
Feel free to dig yourself out of the hole.

My claim? Nope. Never said the surface did anything. You wrote it . You remain confused

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

And because we have moisture in our atmosphere the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in

Hold it in how?

slows the release of heat off the surface.

slows the release of heat off the surface.

Slows the release? Does the surface know the cloud is there, somehow, and throttles back its release of heat?

Why would it? That’s stupid

It was your stupid claim.
Feel free to dig yourself out of the hole.

My claim? Nope. Never said the surface did anything. You wrote it . You remain confused

My claim? Nope. Never said the surface did anything.

You said, "the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in....slows the release of heat off the surface"

I'll understand if you're afraid to explain how the clouds change the action of the surface.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

To prove that ice doesn't have magic as simulation to the atmosphere that you all keep insisting heats up the surface.

You wanted to use one thing I never said to disprove another thing I never said? That's weird.

I'm still waiting on your evidence of surface warming due to greenhouse gases.

You still don't understand that an atmosphere with GHGs slows the escape of IR into space?

are you saying now the atmospheric greenhouse doesn't exist?

Of course it exists. That's why we're not as cold as the dark side of the moon after the Sun sets.

I get it, you're embarrassed.

Billy's, SSDD's and your confusion really doesn't embarrass me.

GHGs slows the escape of IR into space?

hahahahahahaahaha. prove it

Of course it exists. That's why we're not as cold as the dark side of the moon after the Sun sets.

no, no it doesn't and something you can't prove. convection and conduction and pressure with the help of a little gravity influence. IR nope. sorry, and you've never been able to prove magic IR from the atmosphere. NEVER hmmmmmm

BTW, how much oxygen on the moon? Nitrogen? Pressure? Gravity?

GHGs slows the escape of IR into space?

hahahahahahaahaha. prove it

You don't understand absorption/emission spectra?
I'm not surprised.

no, no it doesn't and something you can't prove.

You need proof that the Earth's surface temperature after sunset is higher than the Moon's surface temperature after sunset?

BTW, how much oxygen on the moon? Nitrogen?

None. No GHGs either.

You need proof that the Earth's surface temperature after sunset is higher than the Moon's surface temperature after sunset?

Nope, I just need proof that it is due to CO2. to which you haven't proven. See the pressure systems in our world influence our temps. Convection, conduction, jet streams, many ways. Even at night!!!

Nope, I just need proof that it is due to CO2.

Who said it was due to CO2? Where? Link?

Why do you think the Earth doesn't cool down as fast as the Moon after the Sun sets?

sure conduction and convection.

Why do you think the Earth doesn't cool down as fast as the Moon after the Sun sets?

sure conduction and convection.

You think conduction and convection slow down the cooling of the Earth's surface?

Are you drunk again?

 

[jc456]

slows the release of heat off the surface.

slows the release of heat off the surface.

Slows the release? Does the surface know the cloud is there, somehow, and throttles back its release of heat?

Why would it? That’s stupid

It was your stupid claim.
Feel free to dig yourself out of the hole.

My claim? Nope. Never said the surface did anything. You wrote it . You remain confused

My claim? Nope. Never said the surface did anything.

You said, "the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in....slows the release of heat off the surface"

I'll understand if you're afraid to explain how the clouds change the action of the surface.

Good job

 

[jc456]

GHGs slows the escape of IR into space?

hahahahahahaahaha. prove it

Of course it exists. That's why we're not as cold as the dark side of the moon after the Sun sets.

no, no it doesn't and something you can't prove. convection and conduction and pressure with the help of a little gravity influence. IR nope. sorry, and you've never been able to prove magic IR from the atmosphere. NEVER hmmmmmm

BTW, how much oxygen on the moon? Nitrogen? Pressure? Gravity?

GHGs slows the escape of IR into space?

hahahahahahaahaha. prove it

You don't understand absorption/emission spectra?
I'm not surprised.

no, no it doesn't and something you can't prove.

You need proof that the Earth's surface temperature after sunset is higher than the Moon's surface temperature after sunset?

BTW, how much oxygen on the moon? Nitrogen?

None. No GHGs either.

You need proof that the Earth's surface temperature after sunset is higher than the Moon's surface temperature after sunset?

Nope, I just need proof that it is due to CO2. to which you haven't proven. See the pressure systems in our world influence our temps. Convection, conduction, jet streams, many ways. Even at night!!!

Nope, I just need proof that it is due to CO2.

Who said it was due to CO2? Where? Link?

Why do you think the Earth doesn't cool down as fast as the Moon after the Sun sets?

sure conduction and convection.

Why do you think the Earth doesn't cool down as fast as the Moon after the Sun sets?

sure conduction and convection.

You think conduction and convection slow down the cooling of the Earth's surface?

Are you drunk again?

The earth has an atmosphere and has conduction and .pressure systems

 

[Crick]

Sorry JC, but you don't seem to know what any of those terms mean.

It's not that complicated.

Heat is transferred 3 ways: radiation, conduction and convection.

Radiation is via the emissions and absorption of photons

Conduction is via direct physical contact - an atom vibrating with thermal energy causes a neighboring atom to vibrate and it causes its neighbor to vibrate

Convection is really another form of conduction but involving moving fluids. The primary change is that the flow constantly brings fresh fluid to the contact area which enhances the flow of energy by maintaining the temperature differential.

So, the sun shines on the Earth all day. Most of its energy is in the visible band and almost every bit of it gets through to the surface which absorbs a good part of it. That makes the surface get warmer.

Everything radiates, per its temperature. So, the surface radiates infrared photons up towards space. If the atmosphere were as transparent to infrared as it is to visible light, that energy would shoot off into the cold vacuum of space at the speed of light - as it happens on the moon. But it's not. Several gases, primarily water vapor and CO2 are opaque to significant portions of the infrared band and absorb radiaton in those bands within a few meters. That increases the temperature of those greenhouse gas molecules and they do one of two things: they radiate their extra heat away as infrared photons or they lose it in collisions with their neighbors. Odds are that their neighbors are nitrogen, oxygen or carbon dioxide. The N2 and O2 will be unable to give that energy back because their peak frequencies are much higher and thus require far more power to radiate. They will hang on to it till they lose it through collision. When those gases collide with CO2 or water vapor (or methane or any other GHG) those receiving molecules will then be able (though still unlikely) to radiate that energy.

So, the result of all that is that the atmosphere near the surface is warmed by the infrared radiation the surface is giving off. And through radiaton and conduction, slightly less than half of that energy comes back to the surface. It's as if I am trying to drain one pot into another, but someone has put a wee bilge pump in there that is putting some of it back. It slows down the net rate at which I am transferring water.

Eventually, the thermal energy in the atmosphere will find its way to the upper atmosphere, the stratosphere. There, gas molecules are much further apart and collisions far less likely. There is also almost no water vapor present. So, energy held within CO2 can radiate out to space. Energy held in N2 and O2 molecules is a bit stuck till it is lost to CO2 in a collision and radiates out from there. And, of course, some of that radiation and collision transfer will end up sending energy back down towards the surface. So, once a quantum of energy radiated from the surface gets absorbed by a GHG molecule, its route to space is going to take quite a few steps. Those steps happen very quickly by human standards, but compared to a direct shot up at the speed of light, it is a snail's pace.

The sum result of all that can be seen if we compare the dark sides of the Earth and the Moon, as Todd has been trying to get you to do. Let's look at the volume from the surface to 100 miles on each body. On the moon, at any instant in time, what energy is present there? The photons radiated from the surface are shooting upward headed for space. And that's it. On the Earth, at that same instant in time, what energy is present. We still have quite a few photons rocketing upward as on the moon - those photons that have frequencies that will not be absorbed by any of the greenhouse gases. The rest of the surface emissions are trapped in the atmosphere, conducting and convecting and radiating in pretty much all directions and not escaping till they happen to get to the uppermost stratosphere AND get into a molecule capable of radiating them to space. That adds up to a lot more energy in the Earth's atmosphere than in a similarly-sized volume of the Moon's vacuum. That added energy expresses itself as a higher temperature. Increased greenhouse gases lead to global warming.

 

[SSDD]

You were doing so good right up till you got to the word everything...sorry, but every thing doesn't radiate according to its temperature....perfect black bodies in perfect vacuums radiate according to their temperature...everything else radiates according to its emissivity, its area, and the difference between its own temperature and the temperature of its surroundings....the equation is quite simple and easy to read and understand if you have even junior high level math skills.

Then there is the fact that IR can not warm the air...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

GHGs slows the escape of IR into space?

hahahahahahaahaha. prove it

You don't understand absorption/emission spectra?
I'm not surprised.

no, no it doesn't and something you can't prove.

You need proof that the Earth's surface temperature after sunset is higher than the Moon's surface temperature after sunset?

BTW, how much oxygen on the moon? Nitrogen?

None. No GHGs either.

You need proof that the Earth's surface temperature after sunset is higher than the Moon's surface temperature after sunset?

Nope, I just need proof that it is due to CO2. to which you haven't proven. See the pressure systems in our world influence our temps. Convection, conduction, jet streams, many ways. Even at night!!!

Nope, I just need proof that it is due to CO2.

Who said it was due to CO2? Where? Link?

Why do you think the Earth doesn't cool down as fast as the Moon after the Sun sets?

sure conduction and convection.

Why do you think the Earth doesn't cool down as fast as the Moon after the Sun sets?

sure conduction and convection.

You think conduction and convection slow down the cooling of the Earth's surface?

Are you drunk again?

The earth has an atmosphere and has conduction and .pressure systems

Yes, but enough about the ways the Earth's surface cools down faster.

Back to your "explanation" of how it cools down more slowly...……..

 

[Crick]

You were doing so good right up till you got to the word everything...sorry, but every thing doesn't radiate according to its temperature....perfect black bodies in perfect vacuums radiate according to their temperature...everything else radiates according to its emissivity, its area, and the difference between its own temperature and the temperature of its surroundings....the equation is quite simple and easy to read and understand if you have even junior high level math skills.

Then there is the fact that IR can not warm the air...

2.4 Thermal Radiation
All macroscopic objects—fires, ice cubes, people, stars—emit radiation at all times. They radiate because the microscopic charged particles in them are in constant random motion, and whenever charges change their state of motion, electromagnetic radiation is emitted. The temperature of an object is a direct measure of the amount of microscopic motion within it (see More Precisely 2-1). The hotter the object, the higher its temperature, the faster its constituent particles move and the more energy they radiate.

Chapter 2, Section 4

 

[SSDD]

Thanks for proving my point....nothing in that says that objects in the presence of other objects radiate according to their temperature...nor will you find any real science that says that objects other than perfect black bodies in perfect vacuum radiate according to their temperature...

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

You were doing so good right up till you got to the word everything...sorry, but every thing doesn't radiate according to its temperature....perfect black bodies in perfect vacuums radiate according to their temperature...everything else radiates according to its emissivity, its area, and the difference between its own temperature and the temperature of its surroundings....the equation is quite simple and easy to read and understand if you have even junior high level math skills.

Then there is the fact that IR can not warm the air...

perfect black bodies in perfect vacuums radiate according to their temperature...everything else radiates according to its emissivity, its area, and the difference between its own temperature and the temperature of its surroundings.

Wrong!

Everything emits according to their temperature, emissivity, and area.
No dialing down of emissions allowed. No magic transmission of info without emission of radiation.


Then there is the fact that IR can not warm the air...

LOL!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

slows the release of heat off the surface.

Slows the release? Does the surface know the cloud is there, somehow, and throttles back its release of heat?

Why would it? That’s stupid

It was your stupid claim.
Feel free to dig yourself out of the hole.

My claim? Nope. Never said the surface did anything. You wrote it . You remain confused

My claim? Nope. Never said the surface did anything.

You said, "the clouds that form create a blanket and hold the heat in....slows the release of heat off the surface"

I'll understand if you're afraid to explain how the clouds change the action of the surface.

Good job

Thanks!

I am good at pointing out your idiocy.

 

[Crick]

Thanks for proving my point....nothing in that says that objects in the presence of other objects radiate according to their temperature...nor will you find any real science that says that objects other than perfect black bodies in perfect vacuum radiate according to their temperature...

It says you're a fooking idiot. It says all matter radiates all the time. It says nothing that would allow for your smart photon insanity.

 

[Wuwei]

You were doing so good right up till you got to the word everything...sorry, but every thing doesn't radiate according to its temperature....perfect black bodies in perfect vacuums radiate according to their temperature...everything else radiates according to its emissivity, its area, and the difference between its own temperature and the temperature of its surroundings....the equation is quite simple and easy to read and understand if you have even junior high level math skills.

Then there is the fact that IR can not warm the air...

Are you still trolling that crap!!?? We went through that time and again and you ended up in a idiotic self contradiction. Yes the equation is easy to read if you have a junior high level of math skills. Since the equation represents emission minus absorption, the conclusion is that you don't have a junior high level of math skills.

 

[jc456]

You need proof that the Earth's surface temperature after sunset is higher than the Moon's surface temperature after sunset?

Nope, I just need proof that it is due to CO2. to which you haven't proven. See the pressure systems in our world influence our temps. Convection, conduction, jet streams, many ways. Even at night!!!

Nope, I just need proof that it is due to CO2.

Who said it was due to CO2? Where? Link?

Why do you think the Earth doesn't cool down as fast as the Moon after the Sun sets?

sure conduction and convection.

Why do you think the Earth doesn't cool down as fast as the Moon after the Sun sets?

sure conduction and convection.

You think conduction and convection slow down the cooling of the Earth's surface?

Are you drunk again?

The earth has an atmosphere and has conduction and .pressure systems

Yes, but enough about the ways the Earth's surface cools down faster.

Back to your "explanation" of how it cools down more slowly...……..

K