NYC is considering removing statues of Washington and Columbus

[Remodeling Maidiac]

They gonna remove the founding faters first or the illegals? Asking for a racist Democrat friend

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

I'm more curious why you're trying to minimize the atrocities associated with it when you admit to not knowing much.

Again, when did I admit this?

Thats a silly argument. What does the term "today's standards" really even mean? Are you suggesting time has standards?

You tell me. Slavery was once an accepted practice. Now it is not.

It was a different time back then, I dont think any black person is going to disagree with that. Hell its a different time right now than it was 5 minutes ago. Thats sort of how time works.
The question is whether thats how morality works.

Apparently it does.

You said yourself you don’t subscribe to objective morality.

If I go back far enough in time are you arguing rape becomes okay, morally? Maybe to you but certainly not to me. And that says something doesn't it. It says that morality is relative to people, not time.

If a society once saw slavery as accepted but no longer does then it IS realive to time as well.

In any given point in time you'll find people with differing view points on what is morally right or wrong. In that point in time slavers, murderers and rapists were the dominate social and political power. That's all it means when you say it was a different time back then.

If the commoners of that time said or did nothing about it then, at the very least, they didn’t feel strongly enough about it to take action.

That's my point. Not only did they not see slavers, murderers and rapists as deplorable human beings, they elevated them in society. That's the mark of deplorable society. You fail to see that because of all the propaganda you've swallowed.

I’ve asked you twice now what this propaganda is from which you think I derive my views and you refuse to answer.

Once it was abolished came another 100 years of terror, of lynchings, of Jim Crow and segregation.

Yes. But I’m talking about behavior towards former slave owners.

Because Civil Rights activists broke this country's back and set the stage for its political and economic power to be appropriated.

So all that bad shit is in the past then, yes?

Who's arguing that it was unique in that regard?

You’re the one who ranted about genocide and slavery in this country.

 

[Curried Goats]

Again, when did I admit this?


You tell me. Slavery was once an accepted practice. Now it is not.


Apparently it does.

You said yourself you don’t subscribe to objective morality.


If a society once saw slavery as accepted but no longer does then it IS realive to time as well.


If the commoners of that time said or did nothing about it then, at the very least, they didn’t feel strongly enough about it to take action.


I’ve asked you twice now what this propaganda is from which you think I derive my views and you refuse to answer.


Yes. But I’m talking about behavior towards former slave owners.


So all that bad shit is in the past then, yes?


You’re the one who ranted about genocide and slavery in this country.

What exactly are you confused about? Morality is subjective to people and cultures, not time. Time is superfluous in the equation. All people and cultures exist in a place and a time. There are people and cultures in this time in places around the globe where being gay is punishable by death. Does that make it OK to you? That's what I'm asking you and others. I'm asking about your own morality. I'm not asking you about how the Founders subjectively saw themselves. I don't care how slavers felt about slavery any more than I care how a rapist feels about rape.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

What exactly are you confused about?

In regards to what?

Morality is subjective to people and cultures, not time.

I would have to disagree with you here. The moral convictions towards slavery changed over time in this country. At one time it was accepted and even most of those those who were against the institution tolerated it.

Today, maybe outside of a handful of racist loonies, no one in this country views slavery as morally acceptable.

Time is superfluous in the equation. All people and cultures exist in a place and a time.

If you’re saying cultures never change over time then I have to assume that you’re saying that, since its inception, America has been the product of multiple, single act cultures that are born in a moment of time and die at a later moment in time. Like someone flipped a switch and turned on slave culture then later flipped it off.

This raises a whole host of questions such as: At what moment did the slave culture die?
For that matter, when was it born?
How many cultures have there been?
What triggers the birth of a culture?
Can two or more cultures exist at the same time in the same country?

There are people and cultures in this time in places around the globe where being gay is punishable by death. Does that make it OK to you?

This is predicated on the premise that all cultures change at the same rate at the same time.

Obviously I am not okay with killing gays but apparently some cultures are.

That's what I'm asking you and others. I'm asking about your own morality. I'm not asking you about how the Founders subjectively saw themselves. I don't care how slavers felt about slavery any more than I care how a rapist feels about rape.

Whether you’re asking about my morality or how a founding father saw himself the fact remains: morality is relative.

As for the issue of statues, for me, it’s not so much that I think the statues should be left alone, my concern is the ultmate goal of those who want to take them down. For me, in a sense, it’s like they’re trying to erase white history.

Whether you believe it or not, there is an anti-white sentiment simmering in this country. I don’t see it as pervasive as some whites do but it’s there just the same.

We’re reminded by minorities on this board all the time that whites will be the minority in twenty or thirty years and I can’t help but detect some gloating over this.

In 2020 Jimmy Fallon remarked in his monlogue that the U. S. Census showed that for the first time, the number of white people went down. The audience erupted in cheers and applause.

 

[Curried Goats]

In regards to what?

Morality and physics for two obvious examples.

I would have to disagree with you here. The moral convictions towards slavery changed over time in this country. At one time it was accepted and even most of those those who were against the institution tolerated it.

The problem there is that I don't disagree that morality has changed over time in this country. Generally speaking. That however isn't an statement that morality is some sort of property of time or at all related to time. It's an acknowledgement that time itself only exists as a measurement of change. If nothing changes then time has no meaning or value. It is change itself that is related to time not morality.

Morality, as I argued before, is subjective to people. My morals are a result of my own beliefs, my own thoughts and my own emotions. This description of morality explains the differences in moral beliefs that we see between communities and cultures and even the differences we see in individuals within those communities and cultures. Your description of morality makes no sense. In any given point in time there exists different cultures with different moral beliefs and even people within those cultures who disagree morally. Your description of morality doesn't account for this. It attempts to attribute one set of objective moral truths to any given point in time.

Today, maybe outside of a handful of racist loonies, no one in this country views slavery as morally acceptable.

However some deplorables like you still get down with venerating slavers.

If you’re saying cultures never change over time then I have to assume that you’re saying that, since its inception, America has been the product of multiple, single act cultures that are born in a moment of time and die at a later moment in time. Like someone flipped a switch and turned on slave culture then later flipped it off.

Nope. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Maybe because again you misunderstand time's role in all this which is merely to mark change itself.

What occurred was that anti slavers convinced more and more people that slavery was reprehensible until they had the political and physical ability to subdue the slavers.

This raises a whole host of questions such as: At what moment did the slave culture die?
For that matter, when was it born?
How many cultures have there been?
What triggers the birth of a culture?
Can two or more cultures exist at the same time in the same country?

Those are nonsense questions born out of your misunderstanding of time, morality and culture.

This is predicated on the premise that all cultures change at the same rate at the same time.

It is not. I'm not the one who keeps trying to shoehorn time into the equation, you are.

Obviously I am not okay with killing gays but apparently some cultures are.

Why should that be obvious? You are of a culture that defends the veneration of slavers and rapists. (Notice how there was no mention of time in there. It is irrelevant to whether the previous statement is true.)

Whether you’re asking about my morality or how a founding father saw himself the fact remains: morality is relative.

It's relative to people and as a person your unwillingness to define your morality for fear of judgment is all I really need to invite questions and examinations of your culture and it's beliefs. It's easier to win an argument when the other side is too afraid to defend their position.

As for the issue of statues, for me, it’s not so much that I think the statues should be left alone, my concern is the ultmate goal of those who want to take them down. For me, in a sense, it’s like they’re trying to erase white history.

Which itself is a claim that I can address right now.

I have no intention of erasing history. It is in fact you, the one with the argument that the slavers morality was the morality of the time, who can be more convincingly argued as wanting to erase others from history. I want real history to be taught. Not just the propaganda that says they fought against tyranny but also the history that acknowledges that they were tyrants themselves.

Whether you believe it or not, there is an anti-white sentiment simmering in this country. I don’t see it as pervasive as some whites do but it’s there just the same.

What you're feeling is a lot of anti white bigot sentiments. Admittedly there is less anti black and brown bigot sentimentality but that's no reason to defend white bigots, you should simply hope anti black and brown bigot sentiments catch up.

If you feel however that people are looking at you like you're a Nazi idolater it's because you basically are. I mean are you truly surprised to get side eye when you say things like Hitler is worth venerating because without him we wouldn't have the Germany that we have today? And I know, you didn't actually say that about Hitler you said it about the slaver Founders but really, what's the difference? Hitler gets credit for what Hitler did, not for what people did who came after him. Why should it be any different for the slaver Founders? What they created was a deplorable Slave State. They don't get credit for the work great men and women do to make this country what it is today.

We’re reminded by minorities on this board all the time that whites will be the minority in twenty or thirty years and I can’t help but detect some gloating over this.

Well yes, and I can only speak for myself here but that gloating is intentional. It's not gloating to the whites who aren't racist and don't care about the demographic make up of this country. It's only meant to upset the whites who take some issue with the demographic changes that are occurring.

In 2020 Jimmy Fallon remarked in his monlogue that the U. S. Census showed that for the first time, the number of white people went down. The audience erupted in cheers and applause.

And? One, I'm not sure audience applause is indicative of anything especially since there are prompts for applause in those talk shows. Two, if it is indicative of anything it could just as easily be a celebration of diversity. Why should it bother anyone that the white demographic is declining, especially since this seems to be of their own choosing? White people are having fewer pickney, who's fault is that?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Morality and physics for two obvious examples.

In what way?

The problem there is that I don't disagree that morality has changed over time in this country. Generally speaking. That however isn't an statement that morality is some sort of property of time or at all related to time.

Who said it was?

It's an acknowledgement that time itself only exists as a measurement of change. If nothing changes then time has no meaning or value. It is change itself that is related to time not morality.

If morality changes then it is inextricably linked with time along with everything else.

Morality, as I argued before, is subjective to people.

Yes, whose moral beliefs change over time.

My morals are a result of my own beliefs, my own thoughts and my own emotions. This description of morality explains the differences in moral beliefs that we see between communities and cultures and even the differences we see in individuals within those communities and cultures. Your description of morality makes no sense. In any given point in time there exists different cultures with different moral beliefs and even people within those cultures who disagree morally. Your description of morality doesn't account for this. It attempts to attribute one set of objective moral truths to any given point in time.

If this is what you construed from my arguments then you completely misunderstood.

However some deplorables like you still get down with venerating slavers.

Oh for fuck’s sake.

Would you get off your emotionaly charged white horse for two minutes so we can have a reasoned discussion?

Nope. Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Maybe because again you misunderstand time's role in all this which is merely to mark change itself.

No shit. I never suggested otherwise.

I never claimed that morality is an inherent property of time or that time itself effects or affects change. However, since change only occurs over time, as I said, the two are inextricably linked.

What occurred was that anti slavers convinced more and more people that slavery was reprehensible until they had the political and physical ability to subdue the slavers.

The first part is true to a large extent but slavers were not “subdued”, they simply had their slaves taken away.

Those are nonsense questions born out of your misunderstanding of time, morality and culture.

I understand them just fine. The problem here, I think, is that the “shit culture” as you call it, changed over time and I’m not sure you fully understand the ramifications.

It is not. I'm not the one who keeps trying to shoehorn time into the equation, you are.

Did the culture change over time or did it not?

Why should that be obvious?

You yourself said morality is subjective. Is it or is it not?

You can’t say morality is subjective from one side of your mouth and from the other side of your mouth imply that my morality doesn’t objectively measure up to yours.

To be clear, I don’t venerate slavers. “venerate” is your word, not mine. This is an assumption on your part rooted in YOUR subjective morality and emotional attachment to the issue.

Also, I’m not okay with killing gays. Now is it obvious to you?

You are of a culture that defends the veneration of slavers and rapists. (Notice how there was no mention of time in there. It is irrelevant to whether the previous statement is true.)

Bullshit. I’ve already told you multiple times I recognize their contributions to the founding and building of this nation. That’s it. I’ve never suggested anything beyond that.

Everything else is just your self righteous knee-jerk assumptions.

It's relative to people and as a person your unwillingness to define your morality for fear of judgment is all I really need to invite questions and examinations of your culture and it's beliefs.

After you’ve already judged me, you now want me to define my morality to avoid judgment?

If you wanted me to define it then you should have explicitly asked for it and you should have done so before judging me.

Don’t lay the responsibility for your rash, false judgments on me.

It's easier to win an argument when the other side is too afraid to defend their position.

I have defended nothing.

Which itself is a claim that I can address right now.

I have no intention of erasing history. It is in fact you, the one with the argument that the slavers morality was the morality of the time, who can be more convincingly argued as wanting to erase others from history.

Who are these “others” I’m trying to erase?

I want real history to be taught. Not just the propaganda that says they fought against tyranny but also the history that acknowledges that they were tyrants themselves.

While you remain here and enjoy the freedoms and prosperity they created for you.

What you're feeling is a lot of anti white bigot sentiments. Admittedly there is less anti black and brown bigot sentimentality but that's no reason to defend white bigots, you should simply hope anti black and brown bigot sentiments catch up.

If you feel however that people are looking at you like you're a Nazi idolater it's because you basically are. I mean are you truly surprised to get side eye when you say things like Hitler is worth venerating because without him we wouldn't have the Germany that we have today?
And I know, you didn't actually say that about Hitler you said it about the slaver Founders but really, what's the difference? Hitler gets credit for what Hitler did, not for what people did who came after him. Why should it be any different for the slaver Founders? What they created was a deplorable Slave State. They don't get credit for the work great men and women do to make this country what it is today.

And where do false accusations of racism appear on your morality scale?

Your moral convictions about their owning slaves has nothing to do with their political or military accomplishments.

You may not be aware of this but it’s okay to recognize, say, Jefferon’s contributions without being a racist.

Well yes, and I can only speak for myself here but that gloating is intentional. It's not gloating to the whites who aren't racist and don't care about the demographic make up of this country. It's only meant to upset the whites who take some issue with the demographic changes that are occurring.

So gloating at ME and seeing a non-racist white man as part of the problem for the racist actions of others is okay?

And? One, I'm not sure audience applause is indicative of anything especially since there are prompts for applause in those talk shows.

Bullshit. There was no prompt for applause because Fallon was surprised by it.

Besides that, why would the studio prompt them to cheer and applaud something like that anyway?

Two, if it is indicative of anything it could just as easily be a celebration of diversity.

You know better than that.

Why should it bother anyone that the white demographic is declining, especially since this seems to be of their own choosing? White people are having fewer pickney, who's fault is that?

Whites aren’t upset about the white population decline, they’re upset that minorities are celebrating it and throwing it in their faces.

Come on man, think.

As I said, I’ve seen it mentioned here numerous times by minority posters like IM2 and the text is usually along the lines of: “In thirty years whites will be a minority, then we’ll see what happens.”

 

[LeftofLeft]

• The Columbus statue is not an illegal immigrant
• The Columbus statue is not pushing innocents into oncoming subway trains.
• The Columbus Statue is not playing the knockout game.
• The Columbus Statue is not assaulting Asians.
• The Columbus Statue is not throwing Molotov cocktails into police cars.

Why is removing the Columbus Statue such a high priority???

 

[Curried Goats]

If morality changes then it is inextricably linked with time along with everything else.


Yes, whose moral beliefs change over time.


If this is what you construed from my arguments then you completely misunderstood.

As I explained before in this equation time is superfluous. In fact in some instances its downright erroneous. Take George Washington. He lived as a slaver and died as a slaver. Throughout that period of time his morality on slavery never changed. That's because morality does not change with respect to time, it changes with respect to people. Time is simply the rate of change and sometimes that rate is zero.

Oh for fuck’s sake.

Would you get off your emotionaly charged white horse for two minutes so we can have a reasoned discussion?

I can do both and in fact my argument requires both. It requires people to acknowledge that objectively the Founders didn't create this country we live in today, they created the Slave State they lived in where men, women and children were bought and sold and raped by men who were honored and venerated in society. And it also asks people to question whether thats something they think should be celebrated.

The first part is true to a large extent but slavers were not “subdued”, they simply had their slaves taken away.

Their slaves couldn't be taken unless they were subdued.

I understand them just fine. The problem here, I think, is that the “shit culture” as you call it, changed over time and I’m not sure you fully understand the ramifications.

What don't I get? That better, decent people eventually gained power doesn't really change the fact that according to the moral principles that hold liberty and freedom to be good, the Founders were pieces of human shit.

Did the culture change over time or did it not?

Do decent people living in the present absolve the Founder of their deplorably mutant behavior?

You yourself said morality is subjective. Is it or is it not?

It is subjective and I believe, subjectively, in the notion that freedom and liberty are good. And I question the legitimacy of anyone's claim who says likewise but venerates rapists and slavers.

You can’t say morality is subjective from one side of your mouth and from the other side of your mouth imply that my morality doesn’t objectively measure up to yours.

I'm questioning whether your actions measure up to your stated morals. If you were brave enough to voice them, that is.

To be clear, I don’t venerate slavers. “venerate” is your word, not mine. This is an assumption on your part rooted in YOUR subjective morality and emotional attachment to the issue.

No. That's what it means to celebrate someone with statues, monuments and idols. Look it up.

Also, I’m not okay with killing gays. Now is it obvious to you?

No. You do seem cool with celebrating rapists and slavers so you're still sus.

Bullshit. I’ve already told you multiple times I recognize their contributions to the founding and building of this nation. That’s it. I’ve never suggested anything beyond that.

I don't care what your excuse for veberating them is in the same way that I wouldn't care if you told me that you only admire Hitler for his artwork.

Everything else is just your self righteous knee-jerk assumptions.

My rhetoric is purposefully emotional. I mean to question your character and your culture.

After you’ve already judged me, you now want me to define my morality to avoid judgment?

Not to avoid judgment but to invite judgement as I invite my moral beliefs and intellectual arguments to be judged. If you're going to be brave enough to question then you have to be brave enough to invite examination yourself.

If you wanted me to define it then you should have explicitly asked for it and you should have done so before judging me.

I don't actually care if you're brave enough to do the difficult thing of stating your opinion clearly on a debate board. Dip, dodge or snarl like a hurt Bingo. Your choice.

Who are these “others” I’m trying to erase?

All the other people who existed at the time who thought slavery to be morally wrong.

While you remain here and enjoy the freedoms and prosperity they created for you.

That's my point you dumb Bingo. Did George Washington create freedom for black people or was he a slaver? One is propaganda and the other is a historical fact. Can you pick out which is which? It's because of the work of civil rights activists and martyrs why I am able to enjoy equality in this country. Not because of slavers. That don't make no fucking sense boy.

And where do false accusations of racism appear on your morality scale?

Right next to someone calling you a poopey head. If there was no truth to it it wouldn't bother you.

Your moral convictions about their owning slaves has nothing to do with their political or military accomplishments.

They were slavers though, right? Should we celebrate them for being really successful slavers? Should we start celebrating the Taliban for being successful terrorists while we're at it? What kind of logic is this?

You may not be aware of this but it’s okay to recognize, say, Jefferon’s contributions without being a racist.

You keep thinking that. I'll keep pointing out that he was also a slaver who started raping his teenage slave as a 40 year old man. Kudos to you if in the face of that your veneration of him doesn't make you and others around you uncomfortable. But that's how I plan to win. By making more and more people uncomfortable in their veneration of these monsters.

Whites aren’t upset about the white population decline, they’re upset that minorities are celebrating it and throwing it in their faces.

Sad fucking day for you then. We dont have to dampen our joy and excitement to make you feel better. That was the previous America that you were so fond of. This is ain't that country.

As I said, I’ve seen it mentioned here numerous times by minority posters like IM2 and the text is usually along the lines of: “In thirty years whites will be a minority, then we’ll see what happens.”

I read no ominous warnings in that statement. Only the culmination of promises and prayers fulfilled.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

As I explained before in this equation time is superfluous. In fact in some instances its downright erroneous. Take George Washington. He lived as a slaver and died as a slaver. Throughout that period of time his morality on slavery never changed.

First of all, is there a time limit to changes taking place that I don’t know about?

Secondly, this discussion began with your remark about the “shit culture”, not individuals. The culture changed over time even if the morality of some individuals did not. I repeat: over time.

That's because morality does not change with respect to time, it changes with respect to people. Time is simply the rate of change and sometimes that rate is zero.

Over a period of time, yes?

I can do both and in fact my argument requires both. It requires people to acknowledge that objectively the Founders didn't create this country we live in today,

Oh, they very much did. They were the ones who established our form of government, type of economy and our judicial process, among myriad other things.

As much as you may detest these people, this is historical fact.

they created the Slave State they lived in where men, women and children were bought and sold and raped by men who were honored and venerated in society. And it also asks people to question whether thats something they think should be celebrated.

No one’s suggesting that their slave ownership be celebrated.

Their slaves couldn't be taken unless they were subdued.

Do you know of cases where slavers were “subdued”? If so, please provide evidence.

What don't I get? That better, decent people eventually gained power doesn't really change the fact that according to the moral principles that hold liberty and freedom to be good, the Founders were pieces of human shit.

You’re not so stupid as to believe that cultural morality changed just because “better, decent people” gained power are you?

Where did these people come from, Mars?

The change occurred within the culture itself over time and the decent people were a part of that same culture.
Through living and interacting with slaves and blacks, whites began to see that Africans were not mere animals as they were led to believe. They passed this on to their children and debated the issue with friends, neighbors, relatives and in public forums.

Over time, society began to see Africans as the thinking, feeling human beings they are. It was not a simple case of decent people just showing up and taking power. It was through educating, informing and teaching in various ways.

Do decent people living in the present absolve the Founder of their deplorably mutant behavior?

Answer the question: Did the culture change over time?

It is subjective and I believe, subjectively, in the notion that freedom and liberty are good. And I question the legitimacy of anyone's claim who says likewise but venerates rapists and slavers.

Who are you referring to?

I'm questioning whether your actions measure up to your stated morals. If you were brave enough to voice them, that is.

You haven’t questioned a goddamn thing. You had already morally judged me long before you even brought up the issue of defining morals.

Just because you can’t define my morality you label me as a racist by default and then blame me for not defining my morality for you.

You’re a hypocrite.

No. That's what it means to celebrate someone with statues, monuments and idols. Look it up.

Then your argument is based on a lie. I have venerated no one and I challenge you to show where I have.

No. You do seem cool with celebrating rapists and slavers so you're still sus.

Conflation and assumption. I’ve said before that this is dishonest and disingenuous.

I don't care what your excuse for veberating them is in the same way that I wouldn't care if you told me that you only admire Hitler for his artwork.

Dumbass.

My rhetoric is purposefully emotional. I mean to question your character and your culture.

And I question yours. So far I’ve seen you exhibit hypocrisy, dishonesty and equivocation in equal measure. You’re a liar and you use the word “racist” as a talismanic cudgel that you seem to think magically wins you arguments and makes you morally superior.

You are not. You’re a self righteous, moral posturing, repetitive, whiny windbag with your needle stuck in the MUTANTS! RAPISTS! MURDERERS! groove of a 33 1/3 LP on 78 speed.

Not to avoid judgment but to invite judgement

You just said I don’t define my morality in order to avoid judgment.

as I invite my moral beliefs and intellectual arguments to be judged.

And they have.

If you're going to be brave enough to question then you have to be brave enough to invite examination yourself.

Did you question?

No, you did not. All you’ve done is preach and affect a false facade of moral superiority.

I don't actually care if you're brave enough to do the difficult thing of stating your opinion clearly on a debate board. Dip, dodge or snarl like a hurt Bingo. Your choice.

Then why did you bring it up, dumbass?

All the other people who existed at the time who thought slavery to be morally wrong.

If you want statues of these nameless “others” then by all means, put them up.

That's my point you dumb Bingo. Did George Washington create freedom for black people or was he a slaver?

Who said Washington created freedom?

One is propaganda and the other is a historical fact.

One is a conflation and the other is historical fact. No one said Washington created freedom.

Can you pick out which is which? It's because of the work of civil rights activists and martyrs why I am able to enjoy equality in this country. Not because of slavers. That don't make no fucking sense boy.

Careful, your white supremacy is showing again.

Right next to someone calling you a poopey head. If there was no truth to it it wouldn't bother you.

It only bothers me if it’s false, which it is. Just as it would bother you. It’s part of the reason I call you a liar.

But it’s not me I think about. I worry about the future of our society where people are unjustly labeled as racist for trivial reasons every day. Reputations, jobs and lives are being ruined over misunderstood words and intentions.

What constitutes racism changes every day and from person to person where the word itself has lost all meaning.

My niece’s husband is black and even he will tell you that the anti-racism crusade has gotten completely out of hand. It has become a parody of itself and is a pathetic joke to people who have suffered actual racism.

They were slavers though, right?

Of course they were.

Were you under the impression that I denied this?

Should we celebrate them for being really successful slavers?

No. Did I suggest we should?

Should we start celebrating the Taliban for being successful terrorists while we're at it? What kind of logic is this?

I don’t know. You brought it up, not me.

You keep thinking that. I'll keep pointing out that he was also a slaver who started raping his teenage slave as a 40 year old man. Kudos to you if in the face of that your veneration of him doesn't make you and others around you uncomfortable. But that's how I plan to win. By making more and more people uncomfortable in their veneration of these monsters.

Do you think I’m uncomfortable? Boy, you do not possess the intellect nor the morals to make me uncomfortable. You can’t even compose a post without a whole crop of laugh emojis because you’re incapable of expressing yourself intelligently.

Sad fucking day for you then. We dont have to dampen our joy and excitement to make you feel better.

Joy and excitement over what?

That was the previous America that you were so fond of.

Did I express worry or angst over declining white population? No, I did not. I don’t give a shit. If it happens, it happens.

This is more of your dishonest conflation.

This is ain't that country.

“This is ain’t that country”? What the hell does that mean?

I read no ominous warnings in that statement. Only the culmination of promises and prayers fulfilled.

I always assumed that the prayers were about equality and the end of racism. Are you telling me the prayers were for a black/Hispanic population majority?

 

[Curried Goats]

First of all, is there a time limit to changes taking place that I don’t know about?

Secondly, this discussion began with your remark about the “shit culture”, not individuals. The culture changed over time even if the morality of some individuals did not. I repeat: over time.

Why are you so obsessed with time in this equation? Time has nothing at all to do with whether people were decent or mutant deplorables.

Also groups of individuals create these things called societies and these societies develop culture. Shit people make shit cultures.

Oh, they very much did. They were the ones who established our form of government, type of economy and our judicial process, among myriad other things.

Republics have existed since ancient Rome and so have slave economies.

As much as you may detest these people, this is historical fact.

As is the fact that what they created was a Slave State.

No one’s suggesting that their slave ownership be celebrated.

No, but you are suggesting slavers and rapists be celebrated. Like I said, I don't care what your excuse for celebrating them is.

Do you know of cases where slavers were “subdued”? If so, please provide evidence.

Do you know what subdued means? If you are fearful of society or the law then you have been subdued by the threat of force.

You’re not so stupid as to believe that cultural morality changed just because “better, decent people” gained power are you?

Where did these people come from, Mars?

Where do you think people come from dumb ass? Does the stork drop them on Mars?

The change occurred within the culture itself over time and the decent people were a part of that same culture.
Through living and interacting with slaves and blacks, whites began to see that Africans were not mere animals as they were led to believe. They passed this on to their children and debated the issue with friends, neighbors, relatives and in public forums.

Jesus christ. What kind of Simp white propaganda is this? You're telling me these supposed brilliant men who created this government and its economy didn't realize black people were people? You've swallowed, no, you've gotten down on your knees and guzzled that propaganda my guy. You've pumped it, doubled fisted, right into your willing and open mouth.

Also when Jefferson was raping his teenage slave are you suggesting from that from Jefferson's perspective that he was into beastiality? That's what he thought of as he was raping Sally Hemmings? Really? That's what you're going with?

Fuck man. It's really hard for me to move passed how entirely stupid that argument above is.

Over time, society began to see Africans as the thinking, feeling human beings they are. It was not a simple case of decent people just showing up and taking power. It was through educating, informing and teaching in various ways.

No. In the end it required a civil war.

Answer the question: Did the culture change over time?

You're looking for gotcha quotes, not for logic or reason. Time has nothing to do with it.

Just because you can’t define my morality you label me as a racist by default and then blame me for not defining my morality for you.

No. I already know you're a rapist and slaver idolater. What else do I need to know about you? That's enough for me.

And I question yours. So far I’ve seen you exhibit hypocrisy, dishonesty and equivocation in equal measure. You’re a liar and you use the word “racist” as a talismanic cudgel that you seem to think magically wins you arguments and makes you morally superior.

You are not. You’re a self righteous, moral posturing, repetitive, whiny windbag with your needle stuck in the MUTANTS! RAPISTS! MURDERERS! groove of a 33 1/3 LP on 78 speed.

Go ahead and question it then bitch. I'm not the one venerating slavers and rapists.

If you want statues of these nameless “others” then by all means, put them up.

Im not suggesting we have to put up their statues, though Frederick Douglass would be my choice. That said what im questioning is you used of the phrase "morality of the time" as if slaver morals where the only morals that existed at the time.

It only bothers me if it’s false, which it is. Just as it would bother you. It’s part of the reason I call you a liar.

I get called all sorts of names here and none of them bother me because none of them are true. They are all made up fantasies of the posters who use them. You are a slaver and rapist idolater though and me pointing that out clearly bothers you. As it's meant to.

But it’s not me I think about. I worry about the future of our society where people are unjustly labeled as racist for trivial reasons every day. Reputations, jobs and lives are being ruined over misunderstood words and intentions.

Sure..... you're only thinking of the children.

What constitutes racism changes every day and from person to person where the word itself has lost all meaning.

My niece’s husband is black and even he will tell you that the anti-racism crusade has gotten completely out of hand. It has become a parody of itself and is a pathetic joke to people who have suffered actual racism.

Please don't speak on behalf of your one black friend. That's not cool.

Do you think I’m uncomfortable?

Yes. Its fairly obvious.

Boy, you do not possess the intellect nor the morals to make me uncomfortable. You can’t even compose a post without a whole crop of laugh emojis because you’re incapable of expressing yourself intelligently.

I'm not the one who just argued that the slaver Founders thought black people weren't people......

Joy and excitement over what?

That piece of shit racist whites like yourself are losing cultural and political power.

Did I express worry or angst over declining white population? No, I did not. I don’t give a shit. If it happens, it happens.

Yes you did. You said black people were mocking you and rubbing it in.

 

[MinTrut]

Conservatives - Want to ban books.

Liberals - Want to ban public art.

Independents - Can y'all just go live in caves somewhere?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

Why are you so obsessed with time in this equation? Time has nothing at all to do with whether people were decent or mutant deplorables.

I’m not the one who started obsessing about time, you are.

In your post #473, you said:

“Do you understand how time works?”

This was the first post directly addressing the issue of time.

In post #510 you said:

“You don't understand the difference between political parties that change over time…”

In post #520 you said:

“It says that morality is relative to people, not time.”

All I said was that the morality of the “shit” culture changed over time and since then you have been lecturing me on time over things I never said.

Also groups of individuals create these things called societies and these societies develop culture. Shit people make shit cultures.

And then sometimes the culture changes over time.

Republics have existed since ancient Rome and so have slave economies.

This is where you veer off the rails: America is not a republic, it is a democratic republic. It is also sometimes referred to as a federal democratic republic or a constitutional republic.

Our specific form of government was the first of its kind and is still pretty much the only one of its kind.

As is the fact that what they created was a Slave State.

Yes. But you don’t seem to understand, or are not willing to accept, that some of these same people helped lay the foundation for the freedoms and prosperity you currently enjoy.

This is where the disconnect happens for you: history is not clean, it is not linear, it is not simple, it is blindingly convoluted and complex and sometimes makes no sense. Most especially in the context of morality.

What all of this means is that a handful of brilliant men laid the foundation for a unique nation (that is still unique) and owned slaves.

I can accept this. Can you?

No, but you are suggesting slavers and rapists be celebrated. Like I said, I don't care what your excuse for celebrating them is.

A lie.

Do you know what subdued means? If you are fearful of society or the law then you have been subdued by the threat of force.

So that’s where you’re gonna go with this? Okay.

Where do you think people come from dumb ass? Does the stork drop them on Mars?

You tell me. You’re the one who seems to think decent people come from somewhere else rather than the very culture that used to allow slavery.

Jesus christ. What kind of Simp white propaganda is this? You're telling me these supposed brilliant men who created this government and its economy didn't realize black people were people?

No, they did not. Read up on it. Whites saw blacks as barely above animals. How do you think they justified enslaving them for Christ’s sake?

These people were taught that Africans were pretty much animals. At the very least, they were viewed as lesser forms of humans. This is a fact.

The phenomenon is called cognitive dissonance, which I’m sure you’ve heard of. It is no surprise at all that these people reconciled enslaving people with their passionate ideas about liberty. Humans have been doing this sort of thing from the time we first stood erect.

You've swallowed, no, you've gotten down on your knees and guzzled that propaganda my guy. You've pumped it, doubled fisted, right into your willing and open mouth.

Like I said, look it up.

Also when Jefferson was raping his teenage slave are you suggesting from that from Jefferson's perspective that he was into beastiality? That's what he thought of as he was raping Sally Hemmings? Really? That's what you're going with?

Did he do it to a white girl? No. He did it to a black girl because his morality - divided as it was - told him it was acceptable in that case.

Fuck man. It's really hard for me to move passed how entirely stupid that argument above is.

That’s because you’re ignorant. Again, research it.

No. In the end it required a civil war.

What the fuck do you think sparked the Civil War, dumbass, if not for the moral cultural shift that eventually viewed slavery as unacceptable?

If there had been no moral shift in regards to slavery the war never would have happened. America would have simply expanded west and slavery would have expanded with it.

I refuse to believe that you are that fucking stupid.

You're looking for gotcha quotes, not for logic or reason. Time has nothing to do with it.

“Gotcha quotes”? It’s a simple question.

You admit the Democrat Party changed over time and in fact, that is your justification for being a member of the party today. Yet you are unwilling to admit that our culture changed. Why is that?

No. I already know you're a rapist and slaver idolater. What else do I need to know about you? That's enough for me.

Then, again, why did you bring it up?

Go ahead and question it then bitch. I'm not the one venerating slavers and rapists.

And I’m not the hypocritical liar.

Im not suggesting we have to put up their statues, though Frederick Douglass would be my choice. That said what im questioning is you used of the phrase "morality of the time" as if slaver morals where the only morals that existed at the time.

Of course it wasn’t the only morals that existed at the time and I never suggested otherwise.

But that’s not what this line of discussion is about anyway. You said my actions/attitude/morality whatever, would erase these so called “others”.

I don’t know who these Others are and I don’t see how they would be erased by pointing out that some of the slaver founding fathers helped lay the foundation of our unique nation.

I get called all sorts of names here and none of them bother me because none of them are true. They are all made up fantasies of the posters who use them. You are a slaver and rapist idolater though and me pointing that out clearly bothers you. As it's meant to.

I challenged you to show me where I venerated slavers and you ignored it. So I challenge you again: show where I venerated slavers.

You made the accusation and when I asked for evidence you pussed out. But I’m the one who’s bothered?

Sure..... you're only thinking of the children.

I didn’t say anything about children.

Please don't speak on behalf of your one black friend. That's not cool.

What you really mean is that it’s not cool that another black man thinks your anti-racism crusade has turned into something resembling a witch hunt.

Having said that, I didn’t say he was a friend, I said he was my niece’s husband. And as a matter of fact, when I said in a discussion some time back that the crusade was out of hand, he nodded and said “Yes, it is.”

Yes. Its fairly obvious.

It would take a lot more than a frothing-at-the-mouth shrew who lacks the courage to support his accusations to make me uncomfortable.

I'm not the one who just argued that the slaver Founders thought black people weren't people......

Again, look it up. Whites did not see blacks on the same level. That’ how they justified enslaving them.

That piece of shit racist whites like yourself are losing cultural and political power.

So then I can assume that Fallon’s audience was not just responding to cues when they cheered and applauded, yes?

Yes you did. You said black people were mocking you and rubbing it in.

I didn’t say anyone mocked anyone and I didn’t say any blacks mocked me. As far as I know no black person ever mocked me personally.

I was referring to things I observed.

 

[Curried Goats]

I’m not the one who started obsessing about time, you are.

All I said was that the morality of the “shit” culture changed over time and since then you have been lecturing me on time over things I never said.

And then sometimes the culture changes over time.

I've only ever mentioned time to question your continued reference to it. Time had nothing to do with whether the Founders were shit people or whether or not their culture was indeed a shit culture. Their slaving did. You continually pointing out the obvious, that we aren't the same people or culture today that those shit people were, does nothing really to address my original point. It's just deflection.

This is where you veer off the rails: America is not a republic, it is a democratic republic. It is also sometimes referred to as a federal democratic republic or a constitutional republic.

Our specific form of government was the first of its kind and is still pretty much the only one of its kind.

Nearly every developed nation gave up slavery before the United States and then we had 100 years as a terroristic apartheid State. Our laws and constitution aren't special. The Founders didn't invent freedom or liberty. That's all silly mythology.

Yes. But you don’t seem to understand, or are not willing to accept, that some of these same people helped lay the foundation for the freedoms and prosperity you currently enjoy.

Again they did not. That's just your ignorant mentality and you trying to give them credit for the work of actual heroes who came after them. The foundation they laid saw millions of people that looked like me robbed of their families, their liberty and their lives in service of the Founders desires and greed. In fact the society that laid the foundation for America and who they broke away from freed and criminalized slavery before America did and never had legalized segregation.

This is where the disconnect happens for you: history is not clean, it is not linear, it is not simple, it is blindingly convoluted and complex and sometimes makes no sense. Most especially in the context of morality.

No. Morality is very very simple. Slavers and rapists are pieces of human shit. Always were, always will be. What's so hard about that?

What all of this means is that a handful of brilliant men laid the foundation for a unique nation (that is still unique) and owned slaves.

That is simply Simps like you swallowing mythology and propaganda whole. Spain, France, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands and as I mentioned previously Britain, all abolished slavery before America. What's real funny is you calling them brilliant men for one argument and then ignorant mother fuckers who couldn't tell the difference between a person and an animal in the next.

You tell me. You’re the one who seems to think decent people come from somewhere else rather than the very culture that used to allow slavery.

Do I? Where did I say that? Culture is developed by the inviduals living within a society. Some of those people are going to be good and decent, some of them are going to be deplorable mutants. All this confusion you're having stems from your ridiculous desire to pass off the deplorable nature of some people, namely the Founders, off on time. What makes a society and culture deplorable isn't time, the lack of decent people or the presence of shitty people, for as I said they exist in all societies in all periods of time, it's who has social dominance and standing at any given time. If the slavers and rapists are elevated by the majority to write your laws and set your policies then you're a shitty people and a shitty culture.

No, they did not. Read up on it. Whites saw blacks as barely above animals. How do you think they justified enslaving them for Christ’s sake?

Blacks being animals though isn't a reality you clown. That is my point. It was only a justification and a real flimsy one at that, even at the time. Black people didn't come here rolling around in the dirt, grunting and drooling from their mouths. They were people themselves with families and language and culture. This is the equivalent of you nodding along as a husband explains exactly why his wife had it coming.

These people were taught that Africans were pretty much animals. At the very least, they were viewed as lesser forms of humans. This is a fact.

One look at an African family trying to protect themselves from the whip and the lash as their children were torn away from them dispels that stupid propaganda. The animals were the slavers. Also free black people lived in the North and fought in the revolutionary War on behalf of America. Calling them animals is no different than the trolls you find on this board who do the same. It's how pieces of human shit make themselves feel better about being pieces of human shit.

The phenomenon is called cognitive dissonance, which I’m sure you’ve heard of. It is no surprise at all that these people reconciled enslaving people with their passionate ideas about liberty. Humans have been doing this sort of thing from the time we first stood erect.

That's what you're doing. You don't want to believe the Founders were shitty human beings despite all the objective evidence staring you in the face.

Did he do it to a white girl? No. He did it to a black girl because his morality - divided as it was - told him it was acceptable in that case.

They did it to white girls too. Young daughter were married off by their fathers to much older men and spousal rape wasn't even made illegal in this country until the 90s. The 1990's not the the 1890's.

That’s because you’re ignorant. Again, research it.

You research the history of acceptable rape you ignorant fucktard. It's much more recent than you apparently think.

You admit the Democrat Party changed over time and in fact, that is your justification for being a member of the party today. Yet you are unwilling to admit that our culture changed. Why is that?

Who's unwilling to admit cultures change? I'm simply refusing to admit time has anything to do with it, or that time excuses the shitty culture that existed before.

Of course it wasn’t the only morals that existed at the time and I never suggested otherwise.

But that’s not what this line of discussion is about anyway. You said my actions/attitude/morality whatever, would erase these so called “others”.

If you acknowledge people with different morals existed why do you use the phrase "morality of the time"?

I don’t know who these Others are and I don’t see how they would be erased by pointing out that some of the slaver founding fathers helped lay the foundation of our unique nation.

What was unique about it? Did no other country before have democracy? A free ruling class of people? Slaves? Sounds like a lot of societies throughout history.

I challenged you to show me where I venerated slavers and you ignored it. So I challenge you again: show where I venerated slavers.

You do so when you argue they were unique snowflakes worthy of praise.

But I'm not falling for this notion that I'm to prove that you want to venerate slavers on your own terms. I can most certainly prove it on my own terms with two simple questions.

Do you think Washington should be celebrated with statues and monuments?

Was Washington a slaver?

Answer those honestly and I've made my case.

What you really mean is that it’s not cool that another black man thinks your anti-racism crusade has turned into something resembling a witch hunt.

No. I have plenty of political disagreements with family members because, and you might be surprised to discover this, but we're not a monolith. Except almost when it comes to voting against racist pieces of shit. Then we're almost a monolith for obvious reasons.

What's not cool is you speaking for black people. Speak for yourself.

Having said that, I didn’t say he was a friend, I said he was my niece’s husband. And as a matter of fact, when I said in a discussion some time back that the crusade was out of hand, he nodded and said “Yes, it is.”

Cool story.

Again, look it up. Whites did not see blacks on the same level. That’ how they justified enslaving them.

Like a husband who justifies beating his wife. How the fuck does this absolve deplorable mutant slavers or their deplorable slaving culture?

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

I've only ever mentioned time to question your continued reference to it.

Wrong. As I pointed out in my previous post, you were the first one to comment specifically on the matter of time.

It was after that when I made a comment about culture changing over time that you started your days-long lecture about time being superfluous and that morality is not relative to time.

Time had nothing to do with whether the Founders were shit people or whether or not their culture was indeed a shit culture.

But the culture changed over time, yes?

Their slaving did. You continually pointing out the obvious, that we aren't the same people or culture today that those shit people were, does nothing really to address my original point. It's just deflection.

Yet you are reluctant to admit the culture changed.

Nearly every developed nation gave up slavery before the United States and then we had 100 years as a terroristic apartheid State. Our laws and constitution aren't special. The Founders didn't invent freedom or liberty. That's all silly mythology.

I didn’t say they invented freedom or liberty, dumbass.

The U.S. was the last to abolish slavery but then, slavery had been practiced for about six thousand years even before Britain abolished it.

If Britain abolished slavery only after six thousand years of the practice, does it really matter that the U.S. practiced it for another hundred years, given the time frame?

Again they did not.

Yes, they did. Your moral convictions about slavery notwithstanding, this is historical fact.

That's just your ignorant mentality and you trying to give them credit for the work of actual heroes who came after them.

The heroes you speak of fought for the freedoms that the founding fathers laid down. In other words, equal rights.

Blacks only asked to enjoy the rights and freedoms that the founding fathers laid down and that whites enjoyed. They did not fundamentally change those rights or redesign them and that was not their goal.

The foundation they laid saw millions of people that looked like me robbed of their families, their liberty and their lives in service of the Founders desires and greed. In fact the society that laid the foundation for America and who they broke away from freed and criminalized slavery before America did and never had legalized segregation.

No one denies this. It’s not that the founding fathers’ principles of rights and freedoms were unsound, they were. They just didn’t apply them equally.

No. Morality is very very simple. Slavers and rapists are pieces of human shit. Always were, always will be. What's so hard about that?

If morality is subjective then it is anything but simple.

You will admit morality is subjective but I don’t think you fully grasp what that really means. It means there is actually no objective morality that says slavery is wrong.

Societies and cultures decide for their own reasons that slavery is abhorrent based on experiences of those who suffered and educating others about that suffering.

That is simply Simps like you swallowing mythology and propaganda whole. Spain, France, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands and as I mentioned previously Britain, all abolished slavery before America. What's real funny is you calling them brilliant men for one argument and then ignorant mother fuckers who couldn't tell the difference between a person and an animal in the next.

I didn’t say they were ignorant motherfuckers, dumbass. I said it was cognitive dissonance.

Do I? Where did I say that? Culture is developed by the inviduals living within a society. Some of those people are going to be good and decent, some of them are going to be deplorable mutants. All this confusion you're having stems from your ridiculous desire to pass off the deplorable nature of some people, namely the Founders, off on time. What makes a society and culture deplorable isn't time, the lack of decent people or the presence of shitty people, for as I said they exist in all societies in all periods of time, it's who has social dominance and standing at any given time. If the slavers and rapists are elevated by the majority to write your laws and set your policies then you're a shitty people and a shitty culture.

You are aware that attitudes change within individuals, right?

The acceptance of slavery waned because minds were changed over time through education and teaching by parents and others. You know this, right? If you don’t know that minds can be changed then it would be pretty fucking pointless of you to come here to the forum every day, wouldn’t it?

Blacks being animals though isn't a reality you clown.

No shit you idiot.

That is my point. It was only a justification and a real flimsy one at that, even at the time. Black people didn't come here rolling around in the dirt, grunting and drooling from their mouths.

Who the fuck said they did?

They were people themselves with families and language and culture.

Didn’t I just tell you that a few posts back?

This is the equivalent of you nodding along as a husband explains exactly why his wife had it coming.

Wake up you idiot.

I said THEY viewed Africans as a lower form of human and that THEY used this to justify enslaving them.

How in the name of logic and reason did you get from this that I excused it or agreed with it?

Jesus Christ, the more I try to reason with you the more shrill you get.

One look at an African family trying to protect themselves from the whip and the lash as their children were torn away from them dispels that stupid propaganda. The animals were the slavers. Also free black people lived in the North and fought in the revolutionary War on behalf of America. Calling them animals is no different than the trolls you find on this board who do the same. It's how pieces of human shit make themselves feel better about being pieces of human shit.

Are you somehow under the impression that I agree with this notion that blacks are a lesser form of human?

I’m not sure what exactly you’re arguing here. I’m saying they saw blacks as less than human and you’re screaming at me as if I said I saw blacks as less than human.

If this is the case, how the fuck did you arrive at that conclusion?

That's what you're doing. You don't want to believe the Founders were shitty human beings despite all the objective evidence staring you in the face.

If that’s true, it is no less true that you don’t want to believe what they accomplished.

They did it to white girls too. Young daughter were married off by their fathers to much older men and spousal rape wasn't even made illegal in this country until the 90s. The 1990's not the the 1890's.

We’re talking about Jefferson.

You research the history of acceptable rape you ignorant fucktard. It's much more recent than you apparently think.

1.) Who said rape is acceptable?

2.) I said to research how slavers viewed blacks.

Who's unwilling to admit cultures change? I'm simply refusing to admit time has anything to do with it, or that time excuses the shitty culture that existed before.

Bullshit. When I asked you directly if cultures change you refused to answer and accused me of trying to maneuver you into a “gotcha” quote.

If you acknowledge people with different morals existed why do you use the phrase "morality of the time"?

There is a term that is used for this and other types of phenomena: “zeitgeist”. It’s a German term meanining “time-spirit” and is used to descibe the prevailing thoughts, ideas, beliefs, morality, etc. of a given society or people of a certain time.

The moral zeitgeist of the era of slavery was that slavery was generally an accepted practice and was not viewed as morally wrong by the population at large even if there were some who saw it as evil.

What was unique about it?

I already told you this.

Did no other country before have democracy?

Certainly. But we are not a democracy, we’re a democratic republic.

A free ruling class of people? Slaves? Sounds like a lot of societies throughout history.

It does, doesn’t it? Yet you seem to harbor special contempt for America’s founders and history.

You do so when you argue they were unique snowflakes worthy of praise.

An opinion is not good enough. If you feel free to issue such allegations that besmirch another’s character then at least have the balls to support them with evidence.

But I'm not falling for this notion that I'm to prove that you want to venerate slavers on your own terms. I can most certainly prove it on my own terms with two simple questions.

Do you think Washington should be celebrated with statues and monuments?

It’s not a question of should/shouldn’t. Since the statues and monuments are already in place and have been for decades, the question is; Does it hurt anything to leave them in place? No.

Do I think Wasington was instrumental in winning our independence? Yes.

Was Washington a slaver?

Yup.

Answer those honestly and I've made my case.

You don’t want me to answer honestly, you want me to answer in a way you agree with. And if I don’t, you’ll condemn me as a racist which you’ve already done anyway.

No. I have plenty of political disagreements with family members because, and you might be surprised to discover this, but we're not a monolith. Except almost when it comes to voting against racist pieces of shit. Then we're almost a monolith for obvious reasons.

First of all, we’re not talking about politics, we’re talking about the founding fathers and their statues in the context of some of them owning slaves.

Secondly, not only did you falsely conflate my remarks to mean he was a friend (he is a friend but that is irrelevant to your predilection for presumption), you also falsely claimed he is my one black friend when you have no way of knowing this.

What's not cool is you speaking for black people. Speak for yourself.

I’ve been speaking for myself this entire discussion and you called me racist for it.

I quoted one black person. The operative words here being “quoted” and “person”.

Quoting someone is not speaking for them nor is it speaking for their race.

Cool story.

Like a husband who justifies beating his wife. How the fuck does this absolve deplorable mutant slavers or their deplorable slaving culture?

Didn’t say it did, dumbass.

 

[Curried Goats]

Wrong. As I pointed out in my previous post, you were the first one to comment specifically on the matter of time.

......

But the culture changed over time, yes?

Yep. It's all me....

Sure. Everything that changes, changes with time. That's how time manifests itself, as a measurement of change.

Yet you are reluctant to admit the culture changed.

I'm not. I simply don't see the relevance.

The U.S. was the last to abolish slavery but then, slavery had been practiced for about six thousand years even before Britain abolished it.

If Britain abolished slavery only after six thousand years of the practice, does it really matter that the U.S. practiced it for another hundred years, given the time frame?

What point are you trying to make? Mine wasn't about who had slavery the longest (which is a bit of an unfair comparison considering the age of the United States compared to Britain), it's about which cultures and governments ended the practice before America and the answer to that is almost all of them.

Yes, they did. Your moral convictions about slavery notwithstanding, this is historical fact.

It's a historical fact that they wrote the laws and created the system of government that decent men and women would later work with to expand freedom and equality to all. It's your narrative that this makes them worthy of veneration. The fact is black civil rights activists in America had to work within the system the Founders created. They had no political or physical power to dismantle it and start over.

The heroes you speak of fought for the freedoms that the founding fathers laid down. In other words, equal rights.

The Founders didn't invent freedom or equal rights. The created a Slave State where they stood above people they owned as property and above other non land owning whites.

Blacks only asked to enjoy the rights and freedoms that the founding fathers laid down and that whites enjoyed. They did not fundamentally change those rights or redesign them and that was not their goal.

Freedom and equality of status (not biology) is what exists in nature. These are what the Founders called inalienable rights. What black civil rights leaders fought for was for the American Government to stop abusing them. As I keep saying the Founders didn't invent freedom. They created the system of government that saw the freedom of others oppressed.

If morality is subjective then it is anything but simple.

You will admit morality is subjective but I don’t think you fully grasp what that really means. It means there is actually no objective morality that says slavery is wrong.

I understand it just fine and it is still very simple. Slavery and rape are abhorrent to me. I understand that they weren't abhorrent to the Founders or that these things aren't wrong objectively. My argument is that, as far as I am concerned, rapists and slavers are shitty people, cultures that legalize slavery and rape are shitty cultures as are the people who venerate them. You're free to feel differently though my plan is to shame and ridicule everyone who does until they agree with me, run and hide or made minorities through cultural and/or demographic change.

You are aware that attitudes change within individuals, right?

Washington and Jefferson died as slavers.

The acceptance of slavery waned because minds were changed over time through education and teaching by parents and others. You know this, right? If you don’t know that minds can be changed then it would be pretty fucking pointless of you to come here to the forum every day, wouldn’t it?

Of course minds were changed, what does that have to do with veneration of people who lived and died as slavers?

I said THEY viewed Africans as a lower form of human and that THEY used this to justify enslaving them.

I don't give a shit what their flimsy ass justifications were. What's the relevance?

Are you somehow under the impression that I agree with this notion that blacks are a lesser form of human?

I don't know. I have no clue what the relevance of you mentioning what their shit justifications were.

If that’s true, it is no less true that you don’t want to believe what they accomplished.

I believe what they accomplished. The created a pprosperous country that greatly enriched them personally at the expense of the countless lives and misery of slaves. I just don't find those accomplishments worthy of praise or veneration. I contend only pieces of human shit do.

We’re talking about Jefferson.


1.) Who said rape is acceptable?

2.) I said to research how slavers viewed blacks.

You said they didn't do it to white girls and women. They did. Spousal rape was legal until the 1990s. White wives had no legal recourse to refuse sex from their white husbands before then.

The moral zeitgeist of the era of slavery was that slavery was generally an accepted practice and was not viewed as morally wrong by the population at large even if there were some who saw it as evil.

Who gives a shit? I'm asking how people today view slavers, whether or not they think slavers are worthy of veneration and whether or not people who venerate slavers are pieces of human shit. I know what my answers are and I think I can eventually shame, ridicule or convince others through sound argument that my position is the correct one.

It does, doesn’t it? Yet you seem to harbor special contempt for America’s founders and history.

I harbor contempt for all slavers I just happen to live in America so the veneration of people who were no better than the Nazis to me, by a culture of deplorables, is more relevant to my day to day life.

An opinion is not good enough. If you feel free to issue such allegations that besmirch another’s character then at least have the balls to support them with evidence.

I have and you have. I don't care why you choose to venerate slavers, that you do is enough to describe you as a piece of human shit. I'll make my case to people who aren't pieces of human shit like we did with Confederate idolaters.

It’s not a question of should/shouldn’t. Since the statues and monuments are already in place and have been for decades, the question is; Does it hurt anything to leave them in place? No.

It offends my sensibilities and the sensibilities of people I consider good and decent and it promotes a deplorable racist culture.

Do I think Wasington was instrumental in winning our independence? Yes.

Our? You weren't alive back then and neither was I. He secured his independence and the independence of white Colonists while also robbing black families of their own.

You don’t want me to answer honestly, you want me to answer in a way you agree with. And if I don’t, you’ll condemn me as a racist which you’ve already done anyway.

Obviously I prefer people to agree with me rather than disagree with me but I also appreciate honest answers over dishonest ones. It's a fact that Washington was a slaver and it's fact that you think he's worthy of veneration therefore it's a fact that you venerate slavers, I don't really care why beyond that.

 

[Ghost of a Rider]

......



Yep. It's all me....

Well, yes. You’re the first to bring up time and you’re the one who ranted on for pages about it.

Sure. Everything that changes, changes with time. That's how time manifests itself, as a measurement of change.

I'm not. I simply don't see the relevance.

1.) Again, you refused to answer when I asked if cultures change.

2.) When I brought up you being a member of the party that supported slavery, you sure thought it was relevant then.

In Post #473 you said: “Do you understand how time works?”

And: “…the Democratic party of today isn't the Democratic party of the 1800s…”

This was you telling me that the Democrat Party changed over time. Yet, you’re reluctant to say the culture changed.

What point are you trying to make? Mine wasn't about who had slavery the longest (which is a bit of an unfair comparison considering the age of the United States compared to Britain), it's about which cultures and governments ended the practice before America and the answer to that is almost all of them.

The point is, a hundred years doesn’t mean shit in a six thousand year time span.

It's a historical fact that they wrote the laws and created the system of government that decent men and women would later work with to expand freedom and equality to all. It's your narrative that this makes them worthy of veneration.

There you go, conflating again. I never said they were worthy of veneration. Neither did I say they were not. The ONLY thing I ever said was that they accomplished historical feats.

The fact is black civil rights activists in America had to work within the system the Founders created. They had no political or physical power to dismantle it and start over.

No shit. Your initial comments about the Civil Rights activists implied that they fundamentally changed the system.

The Founders didn't invent freedom or equal rights.

Again, I did not say they did.

The created a Slave State where they stood above people they owned as property and above other non land owning whites.

That’s largely true. But it was also true of Britain at the time and just about every country in the world.

Freedom and equality of status (not biology) is what exists in nature. These are what the Founders called inalienable rights. What black civil rights leaders fought for was for the American Government to stop abusing them. As I keep saying the Founders didn't invent freedom. They created the system of government that saw the freedom of others oppressed.

And that same government -guess what? - changed over time and granted those same rights to blacks and women.

I understand it just fine and it is still very simple. Slavery and rape are abhorrent to me. I understand that they weren't abhorrent to the Founders or that these things aren't wrong objectively. My argument is that, as far as I am concerned, rapists and slavers are shitty people,

Okay. But that is a subjective opinion. I happen to agree with you but it’s still subjective.

What is my point here? My point is that, even with the subjective morality you believe in, you choose to call me racist anyway based on misconstrued comments and which you arrogantly refuse to show evidence for, even when asked.

cultures that legalize slavery and rape are shitty cultures as are the people who venerate them. You're free to feel differently though my plan is to shame and ridicule everyone who does until they agree with me, run and hide or made minorities through cultural and/or demographic change.

Good luck with that.

Washington and Jefferson died as slavers.

You didn’t answer my question: You are aware that change does happen within individuals, yes?

Of course minds were changed, what does that have to do with veneration of people who lived and died as slavers?

Absolutely nothing because I wasn’t talking about them. I’m talking about the culture.

I don't give a shit what their flimsy ass justifications were. What's the relevance?

My question to you is, what’s the relevance to me?

I said that because your remarks seem to indicate that you think this is what I believe: that blacks are lesser forms of human.

I don't know. I have no clue what the relevance of you mentioning what their shit justifications were.

You are two dimensional and you think and see things in two dimensions which results in your oversimplifying things.

You see this as: slavers=bad. That’s it. It never occurred to you to ask why slavers felt justified in keeping slaves.

Silly me, I thought you might appreciate an added dimension as to the hows and whys of slavery, other than the juvenile, naive, uninformed idea that they were piece of shit mutants.

I believe what they accomplished.

It’s not a matter of belief, it’s a matter of fact.

You said they didn't do it to white girls and women.

Who’s “they”? We were talking about Jefferson

Who gives a shit? I'm asking how people today view slavers,

If morality is subjective and slavery was accepted at the time, what difference does it make what people today think?

whether or not they think slavers are worthy of veneration and whether or not people who venerate slavers are pieces of human shit. I know what my answers are and I think I can eventually shame, ridicule or convince others through sound argument that my position is the correct one.

If morality is subjective then your morality is not the “correct” one.

You can’t have it both ways.

I have and you have. I don't care why you choose to venerate slavers, that you do is enough to describe you as a piece of human shit. I'll make my case to people who aren't pieces of human shit like we did with Confederate idolaters.

Then you’re a hypocritical coward.

It offends my sensibilities and the sensibilities of people I consider good and decent and it promotes a deplorable racist culture.

All I can say is, boo hoo.

Our? You weren't alive back then and neither was I. He secured his independence and the independence of white Colonists while also robbing black families of their own.

You weren’t alive either and in fact, when you were, you didn’t even live in this country.

So yes, our independence.

Obviously I prefer people to agree with me rather than disagree with me but I also appreciate honest answers over dishonest ones. It's a fact that Washington was a slaver and it's fact that you think he's worthy of veneration therefore it's a fact that you venerate slavers, I don't really care why beyond that.

It’s a fact that you are a liar. I also asked you to show where I venerate slavers and you pussed out on that one too.

 

[Curried Goats]

Well, yes. You’re the first to bring up time and you’re the one who ranted on for pages about it.

It was actually Marty who did that as do many conservatives who try to defend the veneration of monsters by telling me it was a different time. I don't care what time the atrocities took place. I don't care if it was noon, I don't care if it was midnight. You appear to be doing the same thing or dodging my actually arguments to make irrelevant comments. This argument has become a tangle of irrelevant tangents so let's try to clear them up.

1.) Again, you refused to answer when I asked if cultures change.

I have said cultures change. As you will point out below at the beginning of this argument I argued the culture of the Democratic Party changed. That it is not the same today as it was in the 1800. What more do you want? I'm not reluctant to admit that cultures change, I'm weary of people who continually reference time as if it's important to the conversation.

2.) When I brought up you being a member of the party that supported slavery, you sure thought it was relevant then.

In Post #473 you said: “Do you understand how time works?”

And: “…the Democratic party of today isn't the Democratic party of the 1800s…”

This was you telling me that the Democrat Party changed over time. Yet, you’re reluctant to say the culture changed.

Yes. It was relevant to your address your comment about the Democratic Party's history of slavery so that I was sure that you understood cultures change and that my support of them now has no relevance to their past history of support of slavery.

The point is, a hundred years doesn’t mean shit in a six thousand year time span.

Is that a relevant point though? Were we debating who had slavery the longest? No. I was addressing your comments about the Founders and the Constitution being unique and special in its expression and protection of liberty by pointing out nearly every developed nation at the time ended the practice before they did and also didn't have a 100 years of segregation afterwards.

There you go, conflating again. I never said they were worthy of veneration. Neither did I say they were not. The ONLY thing I ever said was that they accomplished historical feats.

Ok.... but my argument is and always has been that slavers are shit people who don't deserve veneration. Is this relevant to that? You refusing to address my argument to make these points only leads to me think these comments are meant in defense of their veneration. If they're not then what's the point of them? What's their relevance?

No shit. Your initial comments about the Civil Rights activists implied that they fundamentally changed the system.

Quote it. I don't think I ever implied they fundamentally changed the system, whatever that even means. I said they changed this from being a mostly shit culture and apartheid State.

That’s largely true. But it was also true of Britain at the time and just about every country in the world.

What argument are these comments in service of? Who's arguing otherwise? I not suggestion we venerate King George in Washington's stead.

And that same government -guess what? - changed over time and granted those same rights to blacks and women.

Another comment who's relevance I'm finding hard to discern. Same in the sense that they were both American governments but so what?

Okay. But that is a subjective opinion. I happen to agree with you but it’s still subjective.

What is my point here? My point is that, even with the subjective morality you believe in, you choose to call me racist anyway based on misconstrued comments and which you arrogantly refuse to show evidence for, even when asked.

If you recognize morality is subjective then why are you asking me to provide you with objective proof that you're a racist? Your irrelevant points that seem to be in defense of the veneration of slavers even as you deny it aren't convincing to me therefore I think you're a racist. Maybe other people feel differently, subjectively. Certainly you do. I don't care. That gets to be your subjective belief.

Good luck with that.

Why thank you. We've had pretty good success with it when it comes to Confederates, I don't see why it should be any different with other slavers.

You didn’t answer my question: You are aware that change does happen within individuals, yes?

Sure. What's the relevance? You know Washington and Jefferson lived and died as slavers right? They're relevant to my argument about whether pieces of human shits should be venerated. How is yours?

My question to you is, what’s the relevance to me?

You tell me. Why did you engage in discourse with me if you didn't want to address my argument and instead make these comments that you yourself claim are not in service of promoting or defending the veneration of slavers?

You are two dimensional and you think and see things in two dimensions which results in your oversimplifying things.

You see this as: slavers=bad. That’s it. It never occurred to you to ask why slavers felt justified in keeping slaves.

Silly me, I thought you might appreciate an added dimension as to the hows and whys of slavery, other than the juvenile, naive, uninformed idea that they were piece of shit mutants.

What added dimension? Yes, to me slavers, all slavers, are mutant pieces of shit and not worthy of veneration. That's my case. I get to make it. If you want to make the case that not all slavers are bad then you make that case. I thought that's what we were doing here but you can't seem to make up your mind.

If morality is subjective and slavery was accepted at the time, what difference does it make what people today think?

When you say it was accepted at the time its important to be clear you mean by slavers and their slave society. It wasn't accepted as moral by the slaves. To them it was evil and horrible and brutal. And that's one of my points. The only perspective that gets considered by racist pieces of human shit are the slavers perspective.

If morality is subjective then your morality is not the “correct” one.

Not correct in an objective sense but I'm sure subjectively and emotionally I can convince a majority, over time, that people who venerate slaving pieces of human shit or who adopt the slavers mentality and disregard the feelings and suffering of their victims as not even being worth mentioning as being relevant at the time, that they too are pieces of human shit.

You can’t have it both ways.

I don't know what way you think I'm trying to have it. I'm trying to convince people, subjectively, that slavers and their idolaters are human pieces of shit. I use the term human pieces of shit because I'm appealing to people's emotions. Objectively Washington was a slaver but how anyone feels about slavery is subjective.

Then you’re a hypocritical coward.

In what sense?

All I can say is, boo hoo.

Ok.

You weren’t alive either and in fact, when you were, you didn’t even live in this country.

So yes, our independence.

Not the independence of the slaves though. There goes you being a piece of human shit again and forgetting they exist.

It’s a fact that you are a liar. I also asked you to show where I venerate slavers and you pussed out on that one too.

No. You've been pussing out this entire conversation Mr. I haven't argued either way. Then what the fuck are we doing here?

 

[badbob85037]

Who will the be replaced with? Thurnberg and Gore?

Those monuments would cost money they don't have. They need to save money while getting ones they can worship. They could find monuments of great discounts in Iraq and the old Soviet Union.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

How are lives not improved by rejection and suppression of a deplorable mutant culture?

Yes! Replace them with your heroes, Marx and Stalin

 

[Theowl32]

As New York City cripples under monumental budget cuts due to a migrant crisis straining public resources, the city council is planning to consider a series of measures that would, among other things, remove statues of major historical figures like George Washington and create a reparations task force.

The items are included in New York City’s council agenda for Tuesday, September 19, 2023. The council’s Cultural Affairs Committee will hold a public hearing on a measure to remove works of art on city property that "depict a person who owned enslaved persons or directly benefited economically from slavery, or who participated in systemic crimes against indigenous peoples or other crimes against humanity."

This criteria would include figures like America’s first president George Washington, Dutch governor and New York settler Peter Stuyvesant, as well as Christopher Columbus – all of whom have statues throughout the city.

NYC to consider removing statues of George Washington, create reparations task force amid budget cuts

New York City council on Tuesday will consider a range of proposals considering the legacy of slavery despite crippling budgets amid a migrant crisis.

www.foxnews.com

Comment:
This is just more Dumb Democrat hate and racism and it will not solve any problems.
The Democrats should put reparations on a ballot if they are serious.

Replacing them I'm sure with karl marx and che guevara. They are such unreal scumbags.