Obama's Next Dilemma?,What If Patients Die Waiting For Treatment Or Doctor Shortage?

[ScreamingEagle]

The National Health Service is Great Britain’s equivalent of ObamaCare, except it has been around since 1948. The NHS experience gives an excellent view of where we are headed with ObamaCare.
....
Socialized medicine schemes like the NHS have three priorities.

First, the scheme requires complete government control of the national healthcare system. In this way, the government can control prices, costs, medical treatments, standards, and so forth. This is necessary because healthcare consumes a huge portion of government resources.

Second, socialized medicine is about providing equal care to every citizen. This is the basic pretext for instituting socialized medicine – to extend healthcare to those who do not already have it or cannot afford it. However, instead of merely providing taxpayer subsidized care to the have-nots, the promoters of Big Government seize the “crisis” opportunity to take control over everyone’s healthcare.

The priority then becomes making sure everyone gets the same quality of care. This should not be misinterpreted to mean that everyone gets the same high quality care. This is not the aim of socialized medicine. Rather, schemes like ObamaCare and the NHS seek to ensure only that no one gets better care than anyone else.

Third, socialized healthcare is about rationing. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. The need for rationing is quite obvious. When healthcare becomes a government function it consumes a huge portion of the national budget. Costs necessarily increase with time as the population increases and people live longer. In addition, medical and technological advances occur; and these can be expensive.

Thus, the rising cost of healthcare must be offset by some combination of higher taxes and cost reductions. Since tax increases are unpopular with the voters and politically toxic, the burden of controlling healthcare’s slice of the government pie falls squarely on reducing costs. Since the government is inherently inefficient and wasteful, few cost reductions can be obtained by conventional means. Rationing healthcare – that is, reducing the amount of care or the quality of care – becomes a necessary and vital strategy of socialized medicine.

cont.
New NHS Horror Stories: Your ObamaCare Future - Charleston Tea Party

There isn't a single thing that you have posted that changes the fact that other countries provide health care for less cost with better outcomes.

you mean like Britain.......?

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

If people can't get an appointment, can't find the right doctor, wait in a crowded ER or die from a mis diagnosis with the ACA, it will be no different than the current system when one can't get an appointment, find a doctor, wait in an ER or get misdiagnosed.

Those kinds of things happen in our current health care system and have been happening long before the ACA.

Other countries have national health care and they do it for a lot less $$ and their outcomes are better. That fact can be found on any search engine from legitimate sources..... If you really want to know, that is.

A small sample of this "much improved" national health care system.

Cancer charities are calling for the Government to pledge it will not go back to days when patients ‘had to beg’ for life-prolonging drugs

Access to cancer medicines will revert to being the worst in Europe, with more than 16,000 patients a year denied help, they say.

16,000 cancer patients a year to be denied vital medicine as Government's specialist drugs fund is wound up | Mail Online

Kidney cancer patients denied life-extending drug as NHS watchdog declares it 'not cost effective' | Mail Online

Nothing you posted negates the FACT that other countries provide healthcare at less cost with better outcomes than the United States.

In other words, a government denying a patient treatment as a result of trying to cut costs is perfectly acceptable to you. If not, then perhaps what you're REALLY trying to tell me is I KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE AND I DO NOT WANT TO BE BOTHERED BY FACTS OR THE TRUTH!!!

 

[TheSeventhTiger]

now who is the one pushing granny over the bridge? GOP needs to re-do that commercial using Reid!

 

[Oldstyle]

As I understand it Cuba has some of the best healthcare in the world and they do it at a fraction of the cost of what we pay. That said, there are other factors involved in where a person chooses to live. For example, you want the government to get out of the way. You are claiming that it is the government screwing everything up. Let me give you a suggestion. Have you ever considered moving to Somolia? There is almost no government at all. Taxes are amazingly low and nobody tells busines what they must do or how they should behave.
And by the way, my point, which you choose to ignore, is that we're #1 in money spent on health care yet there are #32 countries where people live longer on average than Americans. It seems to me that IF we are spending all that money and are 33rd on the list we must be doing something wrong. Only someone who is blind, deaf, and dumb or completly closed minded could miss that rather simple fact.

If the reason those other 32 countries had people living longer was because of the quality of their healthcare systems then you might have a point, Ron. Is that the case however...or does America have a serious problem with things like obesity that simply doesn't exist elsewhere? I think that American healthcare is amongst the best in the world. I say that because people come HERE to get advanced treatments they can't get where they are from.

My other question for you is this...what in ObamaCare lowers the price tag for healthcare for the average middle class American? It's a boon for those with pre-existing conditions and the poor who will have their care subsidized...but what are the benefits for the average middle class American that will now be paying more to subsidize others?

That is such a bullshit argument that I can't believe it is still being used.
"I say that because people come HERE to get advanced treatments they can't get where they are from."
Who are the people coming here for health care? It is not the ordinary people who are coming here. It is the people who are super wealthy, the 1%'s. And that leads to this thought: YOU COULD LIVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE MAYO CLINIC BUT IF YOU DID NOT HAVE THE MONEY OR THE INSURANCE IT MIGHT AS WELL BE ON THE FAR SIDE OF THE MOON AS FAR AS YOU ARE CONCERNED. Fine we have great doctors and great hospitals that 90% of the people cannot afford. How does that help this country if its citizens cannot get the treatments they need.
And as to your second question I can only say this. I believe that as Americans we should work to help each other rather than turning our backs on fellow Americans. That was one of the characteristics that made this country great. If there was a flood in the midwest there was no question about voting emergency aid for the people affected. If there was a hurricane in Florida the same thing applied. Same thing for people caught in tornado's or wild fires. Today we have legislators who want aid when their state is hit but who will vote down aid for other states. I don't believe in "I've got mine, who cares if the people without insurance die before their time.? That is the argument you are advancing.

What's "bullshit" is the way that people on the left are attacking anyone who points out the glaring problems with the ACA legislation.

Your point about the people coming from elsewhere for our healthcare being wealthy is well taken. What you can't seem to grasp is that the same thing is about to happen here. Here's the way it's going to work in America as the ACA rolls out, Ron. Poor people will get subsidized care which will rapidly ramp up our already out of control deficits or cause taxes to skyrocket. Rich people will have great health care with no waits because they will be paying cash to doctors that refuse to take on any more Medicaid and Medicare patients...and the people in between...the Middle Class folks...are the ones who take it right in the shorts. They will be paying more in taxes...more in insurance premiums (to pay for the subsidies and the preexisting conditions people) and waiting longer and longer to see doctors or receive care as the doctor shortage becomes acute.

The ACA has done NOTHING to lower healthcare costs for those Middle Class taxpayers. Instead it has shifted the burden of paying for part of others healthcare costs squarely onto their backs. THAT is why there were so many lies told by Barry, Harry and Nancy about the ACA! They didn't want the Middle Class to see this train wreck coming in time to stop it. So they fed them false numbers about the costs of the program and gave them promises about it that they KNEW they couldn't keep.

 

[Oldstyle]

As I understand it Cuba has some of the best healthcare in the world and they do it at a fraction of the cost of what we pay. That said, there are other factors involved in where a person chooses to live. For example, you want the government to get out of the way. You are claiming that it is the government screwing everything up. Let me give you a suggestion. Have you ever considered moving to Somolia? There is almost no government at all. Taxes are amazingly low and nobody tells busines what they must do or how they should behave.
And by the way, my point, which you choose to ignore, is that we're #1 in money spent on health care yet there are #32 countries where people live longer on average than Americans. It seems to me that IF we are spending all that money and are 33rd on the list we must be doing something wrong. Only someone who is blind, deaf, and dumb or completly closed minded could miss that rather simple fact.

If the reason those other 32 countries had people living longer was because of the quality of their healthcare systems then you might have a point, Ron. Is that the case however...or does America have a serious problem with things like obesity that simply doesn't exist elsewhere? I think that American healthcare is amongst the best in the world. I say that because people come HERE to get advanced treatments they can't get where they are from.

My other question for you is this...what in ObamaCare lowers the price tag for healthcare for the average middle class American? It's a boon for those with pre-existing conditions and the poor who will have their care subsidized...but what are the benefits for the average middle class American that will now be paying more to subsidize others?

Old style,

Two points....

Yes, people come here for medical care, but a lot of our people go to other countries for medical care too. In fact, don't you remember when Medicare reform kicked in and seniors were forced to go to Mexico and Canada for affordable drugs?

The other point..... Middle class Americans ALREADY subsidize those who can't afford health care through the Medicaid system. However, since Medicaid offers no preventative care and is limited in other ways, we are subsidizing in a way that is not cost effective or performance efficient. Seems it would make more sense to spend the money up front and do it right than to keep digging that hole. Other countries do it for less cost and with better outcomes.

Wait a second...the REASON people buy drugs in other countries is that prescription drugs here are so outrageously expensive in part because of government regulations and deals with Big Pharma! I buy my drugs in Costa Rica because they are half the price there then they are here. People from the United States now take "health care vacations" to other countries because care is cheaper there. The ACA won't be changing that for anyone but the poor because the ACA does nothing to lower costs of healthcare which is what Americans were asking for when they asked for healthcare reform. Instead of things to lower the cost...what they got was a plan to shift the burden of paying for healthcare. The ACA is a dagger to the heart of any hard working Middle Class person...something that they are just now beginning to understand.

 

[Barbarap]

The National Health Service is Great Britain’s equivalent of ObamaCare, except it has been around since 1948. The NHS experience gives an excellent view of where we are headed with ObamaCare.
....
Socialized medicine schemes like the NHS have three priorities.

First, the scheme requires complete government control of the national healthcare system. In this way, the government can control prices, costs, medical treatments, standards, and so forth. This is necessary because healthcare consumes a huge portion of government resources.

Second, socialized medicine is about providing equal care to every citizen. This is the basic pretext for instituting socialized medicine – to extend healthcare to those who do not already have it or cannot afford it. However, instead of merely providing taxpayer subsidized care to the have-nots, the promoters of Big Government seize the “crisis” opportunity to take control over everyone’s healthcare.

The priority then becomes making sure everyone gets the same quality of care. This should not be misinterpreted to mean that everyone gets the same high quality care. This is not the aim of socialized medicine. Rather, schemes like ObamaCare and the NHS seek to ensure only that no one gets better care than anyone else.

Third, socialized healthcare is about rationing. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. The need for rationing is quite obvious. When healthcare becomes a government function it consumes a huge portion of the national budget. Costs necessarily increase with time as the population increases and people live longer. In addition, medical and technological advances occur; and these can be expensive.

Thus, the rising cost of healthcare must be offset by some combination of higher taxes and cost reductions. Since tax increases are unpopular with the voters and politically toxic, the burden of controlling healthcare’s slice of the government pie falls squarely on reducing costs. Since the government is inherently inefficient and wasteful, few cost reductions can be obtained by conventional means. Rationing healthcare – that is, reducing the amount of care or the quality of care – becomes a necessary and vital strategy of socialized medicine.

cont.
New NHS Horror Stories: Your ObamaCare Future - Charleston Tea Party

There isn't a single thing that you have posted that changes the fact that other countries provide health care for less cost with better outcomes.

you mean like Britain.......?

Go back and read the link in post 30.

 

[TheSeventhTiger]

and when will they grill Barry over this scandal? you know, it is called Obama-Care, you would think they would be asking questions to the person who "Apparently" wrote the bill !

 

[Barbarap]

A small sample of this "much improved" national health care system.

Nothing you posted negates the FACT that other countries provide healthcare at less cost with better outcomes than the United States.

In other words, a government denying a patient treatment as a result of trying to cut costs is perfectly acceptable to you. If not, then perhaps what you're REALLY trying to tell me is I KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE AND I DO NOT WANT TO BE BOTHERED BY FACTS OR THE TRUTH!!!

Denying treatment is not acceptable which is why I support health care reform. Currently in the United States there are many people denied health care every day for various reasons such as economics, access, and lack of knowledge. That needs to change.

There is no reason why the United States should spend more on health care with worse outcomes than other countries.

 

[TheSeventhTiger]

the democrat attitude of americans dying is like the classic line from "Rocky 24",,,,well, if they die,,,they die !

 

[Barbarap]

If the reason those other 32 countries had people living longer was because of the quality of their healthcare systems then you might have a point, Ron. Is that the case however...or does America have a serious problem with things like obesity that simply doesn't exist elsewhere? I think that American healthcare is amongst the best in the world. I say that because people come HERE to get advanced treatments they can't get where they are from.

My other question for you is this...what in ObamaCare lowers the price tag for healthcare for the average middle class American? It's a boon for those with pre-existing conditions and the poor who will have their care subsidized...but what are the benefits for the average middle class American that will now be paying more to subsidize others?

Old style,

Two points....

Yes, people come here for medical care, but a lot of our people go to other countries for medical care too. In fact, don't you remember when Medicare reform kicked in and seniors were forced to go to Mexico and Canada for affordable drugs?

The other point..... Middle class Americans ALREADY subsidize those who can't afford health care through the Medicaid system. However, since Medicaid offers no preventative care and is limited in other ways, we are subsidizing in a way that is not cost effective or performance efficient. Seems it would make more sense to spend the money up front and do it right than to keep digging that hole. Other countries do it for less cost and with better outcomes.

Wait a second...the REASON people buy drugs in other countries is that prescription drugs here are so outrageously expensive in part because of government regulations and deals with Big Pharma! I buy my drugs in Costa Rica because they are half the price there then they are here. People from the United States now take "health care vacations" to other countries because care is cheaper there. The ACA won't be changing that for anyone but the poor because the ACA does nothing to lower costs of healthcare which is what Americans were asking for when they asked for healthcare reform. Instead of things to lower the cost...what they got was a plan to shift the burden of paying for healthcare. The ACA is a dagger to the heart of any hard working Middle Class person...something that they are just now beginning to understand.

The ACA will close the donut hole created during the Bush Administration with Medicare Reform. This will make it possible for individuals like yourself to purchase drugs locally instead of going to other countries. I believe that will be implemented in 2014, but would have to double check to be sure of that date.

What you are missing here is the fact that the middle class ALREADY carries the burden through the Medicaid system. But, the current Medicaid system is not cost effective or efficient and has no preventative care provisions.

If the middle class is going to carry the burden either way, why wouldn't they opt to do it in a way that was more cost effective with better outcomes??

Other countries spend less and have better outcomes. If they can do it, we should be able to figure it out too.

 

[Oldstyle]

and when will they grill Barry over this scandal? you know, it is called Obama-Care, you would think they would be asking questions to the person who "Apparently" wrote the bill !

LOL...Ah, the first thing you have to know about ObamaCare, Tiger is that although it is NAMED after Barack Obama...he wrote none of the legislation.

The fact is, Barack Obama is utterly clueless about writing legislation. He tried doing so when he first became an Illinois State Senator and couldn't get a single bill passed that he had written the first two years he was in office. He was a perfect "O-Fer" until Emil Jones started feeding him bills that other Democrats had worked on to sign his name to...a practice that Obama continued once he became a US Senator.

 

[TheSeventhTiger]

and when will they grill Barry over this scandal? you know, it is called Obama-Care, you would think they would be asking questions to the person who "Apparently" wrote the bill !

LOL...Ah, the first thing you have to know about ObamaCare, Tiger is that although it is NAMED after Barack Obama...he wrote none of the legislation.

The fact is, Barack Obama is utterly clueless about writing legislation. He tried doing so when he first became an Illinois State Senator and couldn't get a single bill passed that he had written the first two years he was in office. He was a perfect "O-Fer" until Emil Jones started feeding him bills that other Democrats had worked on to sign his name to...a practice that Obama continued once he became a US Senator.

I know he didn't write the bill, how could he? he can't even write a script for a teleprompter! I was just kidding, I know which marxists wrote the bill.

 

[Oldstyle]

Old style,

Two points....

Yes, people come here for medical care, but a lot of our people go to other countries for medical care too. In fact, don't you remember when Medicare reform kicked in and seniors were forced to go to Mexico and Canada for affordable drugs?

The other point..... Middle class Americans ALREADY subsidize those who can't afford health care through the Medicaid system. However, since Medicaid offers no preventative care and is limited in other ways, we are subsidizing in a way that is not cost effective or performance efficient. Seems it would make more sense to spend the money up front and do it right than to keep digging that hole. Other countries do it for less cost and with better outcomes.

Wait a second...the REASON people buy drugs in other countries is that prescription drugs here are so outrageously expensive in part because of government regulations and deals with Big Pharma! I buy my drugs in Costa Rica because they are half the price there then they are here. People from the United States now take "health care vacations" to other countries because care is cheaper there. The ACA won't be changing that for anyone but the poor because the ACA does nothing to lower costs of healthcare which is what Americans were asking for when they asked for healthcare reform. Instead of things to lower the cost...what they got was a plan to shift the burden of paying for healthcare. The ACA is a dagger to the heart of any hard working Middle Class person...something that they are just now beginning to understand.

The ACA will close the donut hole created during the Bush Administration with Medicare Reform. This will make it possible for individuals like yourself to purchase drugs locally instead of going to other countries. I believe that will be implemented in 2014, but would have to double check to be sure of that date.

What you are missing here is the fact that the middle class ALREADY carries the burden through the Medicaid system. But, the current Medicaid system is not cost effective or efficient and has no preventative care provisions.

If the middle class is going to carry the burden either way, why wouldn't they opt to do it in a way that was more cost effective with better outcomes??

Other countries spend less and have better outcomes. If they can do it, we should be able to figure it out too.

I hate to burst your bubble on how this law is going to bring down costs, Barb but you are DREAMING if you think anything in the ACA is going to bring prescription prices in the US down to what they are elsewhere.

As for the ACA being "more cost effective with better outcomes" for the Middle Class? That's a pipe dream! The ACA simply shifts the costs of healthcare from those who can't afford it to those that supposedly can. The Middle Class didn't quite grasp that however because they've been consistently lied to about the ACA all along.

 

[Barbarap]

Wait a second...the REASON people buy drugs in other countries is that prescription drugs here are so outrageously expensive in part because of government regulations and deals with Big Pharma! I buy my drugs in Costa Rica because they are half the price there then they are here. People from the United States now take "health care vacations" to other countries because care is cheaper there. The ACA won't be changing that for anyone but the poor because the ACA does nothing to lower costs of healthcare which is what Americans were asking for when they asked for healthcare reform. Instead of things to lower the cost...what they got was a plan to shift the burden of paying for healthcare. The ACA is a dagger to the heart of any hard working Middle Class person...something that they are just now beginning to understand.

The ACA will close the donut hole created during the Bush Administration with Medicare Reform. This will make it possible for individuals like yourself to purchase drugs locally instead of going to other countries. I believe that will be implemented in 2014, but would have to double check to be sure of that date.

What you are missing here is the fact that the middle class ALREADY carries the burden through the Medicaid system. But, the current Medicaid system is not cost effective or efficient and has no preventative care provisions.

If the middle class is going to carry the burden either way, why wouldn't they opt to do it in a way that was more cost effective with better outcomes??

Other countries spend less and have better outcomes. If they can do it, we should be able to figure it out too.

I hate to burst your bubble on how this law is going to bring down costs, Barb but you are DREAMING if you think anything in the ACA is going to bring prescription prices in the US down to what they are elsewhere.

As for the ACA being "more cost effective with better outcomes" for the Middle Class? That's a pipe dream! The ACA simply shifts the costs of healthcare from those who can't afford it to those that supposedly can. The Middle Class didn't quite grasp that however because they've been consistently lied to about the ACA all along.

You still can't grasp this simple FACT.... The middle class ALREADY carries the burden.
Doesn't it make more sense for that burden to be more cost effective and reap better outcomes??

I don't think the ACA is perfect, but at least it is a step in the right direction.

 

[Oldstyle]

The ACA will close the donut hole created during the Bush Administration with Medicare Reform. This will make it possible for individuals like yourself to purchase drugs locally instead of going to other countries. I believe that will be implemented in 2014, but would have to double check to be sure of that date.

What you are missing here is the fact that the middle class ALREADY carries the burden through the Medicaid system. But, the current Medicaid system is not cost effective or efficient and has no preventative care provisions.

If the middle class is going to carry the burden either way, why wouldn't they opt to do it in a way that was more cost effective with better outcomes??

Other countries spend less and have better outcomes. If they can do it, we should be able to figure it out too.

I hate to burst your bubble on how this law is going to bring down costs, Barb but you are DREAMING if you think anything in the ACA is going to bring prescription prices in the US down to what they are elsewhere.

As for the ACA being "more cost effective with better outcomes" for the Middle Class? That's a pipe dream! The ACA simply shifts the costs of healthcare from those who can't afford it to those that supposedly can. The Middle Class didn't quite grasp that however because they've been consistently lied to about the ACA all along.

You still can't grasp this simple FACT.... The middle class ALREADY carries the burden.
Doesn't it make more sense for that burden to be more cost effective and reap better outcomes??

I don't think the ACA is perfect, but at least it is a step in the right direction.

How does the ACA make healthcare more affordable for someone in the Middle Class? Seriously, Barb...what are you basing that claim on? That the progressives that wrote the law "promised" you that it would? In case you haven't been paying attention...the "promises" that were given in regards to the ACA don't turn out to be worth very much. The ACA is going to substantially increase healthcare costs for the Middle Class while seriously degrading the level of care received by them. It HAS to! This notion that it would lower costs has always been fiction...fiction that was used to sell ObamaCare to a skeptical nation.

 

[Oldstyle]

It is a step in the direction of a government controlled single payer plan...which is what Barry, Harry and Nancy wanted in the first place. The ACA is doomed to fail because it was written that way! When it does fail the call will then go out that the only REAL solution to the ensuing mess is government controlled Medicare for everyone. I can practically GUARANTEE you that will be where we're going with this.

 

[Barbarap]

I hate to burst your bubble on how this law is going to bring down costs, Barb but you are DREAMING if you think anything in the ACA is going to bring prescription prices in the US down to what they are elsewhere.

As for the ACA being "more cost effective with better outcomes" for the Middle Class? That's a pipe dream! The ACA simply shifts the costs of healthcare from those who can't afford it to those that supposedly can. The Middle Class didn't quite grasp that however because they've been consistently lied to about the ACA all along.

You still can't grasp this simple FACT.... The middle class ALREADY carries the burden.
Doesn't it make more sense for that burden to be more cost effective and reap better outcomes??

I don't think the ACA is perfect, but at least it is a step in the right direction.

How does the ACA make healthcare more affordable for someone in the Middle Class? Seriously, Barb...what are you basing that claim on? That the progressives that wrote the law "promised" you that it would? In case you haven't been paying attention...the "promises" that were given in regards to the ACA don't turn out to be worth very much. The ACA is going to substantially increase healthcare costs for the Middle Class while seriously degrading the level of care received by them. It HAS to! This notion that it would lower costs has always been fiction...fiction that was used to sell ObamaCare to a skeptical nation.

Go back and read some of the links I provided earlier.

If you can't see that paying for a system that is more cost efficient with better outcomes is a good thing, then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

By the way, the research I have done on individual plans and circumstances indicates that most people will not have to pay more than what they do now for insurance. (Based on information from the state I live in) True, those who currently have substandard plans might have to pay more.... But they will be getting more.

The overall level of care won't be degraded with the ACA. Again, you might want to refer to some of the links I provided earlier.

 

[Oldstyle]

You still can't grasp this simple FACT.... The middle class ALREADY carries the burden.
Doesn't it make more sense for that burden to be more cost effective and reap better outcomes??

I don't think the ACA is perfect, but at least it is a step in the right direction.

How does the ACA make healthcare more affordable for someone in the Middle Class? Seriously, Barb...what are you basing that claim on? That the progressives that wrote the law "promised" you that it would? In case you haven't been paying attention...the "promises" that were given in regards to the ACA don't turn out to be worth very much. The ACA is going to substantially increase healthcare costs for the Middle Class while seriously degrading the level of care received by them. It HAS to! This notion that it would lower costs has always been fiction...fiction that was used to sell ObamaCare to a skeptical nation.

Go back and read some of the links I provided earlier.

If you can't see that paying for a system that is more cost efficient with better outcomes is a good thing, then I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

By the way, the research I have done on individual plans and circumstances indicates that most people will not have to pay more than what they do now for insurance. (Based on information from the state I live in) True, those who currently have substandard plans might have to pay more.... But they will be getting more.

The overall level of care won't be degraded with the ACA. Again, you might want to refer to some of the links I provided earlier.

Barb, kindly list some examples of where government has done something in a more cost efficient manner than the private sector. THAT, my liberal friend is something as rare as a unicorn or the Cubs winning the World Series! This system will not be more cost efficient with better outcomes. It will be a train wreck. It's badly written. I'm sorry but it's just bad legislation that was cobbled together to pass something. They are going to have to force young and healthy people onto the exchanges because both are going to unwilling to shell out for a plan that they can get onto at any time because of the pre-existing conditions clause.

 

[Oldstyle]

And of course the overall care will get degraded! It can't help but be! You're adding millions to a system that already has a shortage of doctors while at the same time telling those doctors that you will be paying them less for the services they provide. What do you think the outcome of that is going to be? Doctors ALREADY limit the number of Medicare patients they're willing to see. Do you really think that's not going to become even more common? Come on...use some common sense!

 

[TheSeventhTiger]

2014: the year "It All Collapses" !!! and we can't wait!