Obama's Next Dilemma?,What If Patients Die Waiting For Treatment Or Doctor Shortage?

[ScreamingEagle]

Screaming, I provided lots of information indicating why costs are less in other countries.

Care to provide some legitimate documentation to support your claim?

Not saying you are wrong... But independent verification would bolster your stance.

And, if price fixing is how other countries do it.... We need to analyze that aspect. Afterall, since other countries spend less with better outcomes.... We might be able to learn from them.

what you can learn from them is that socialized medicine eventually produces bad results...

there is plenty of 'documentation' if you just go out there and look...

from your own links....

“Other countries negotiate very aggressively with the providers and set rates that are much lower than we do,” Anderson says. They do this in one of two ways. In countries such as Canada and Britain, prices are set by the government. In others, such as Germany and Japan, they’re set by providers and insurers sitting in a room and coming to an agreement, with the government stepping in to set prices if they fail.

Why an MRI costs $1,080 in America and $280 in France

many countries that have tried socialized medicine are now turning to the free market to improve their systems.....in fact many of the European countries in your report....

Please provide legitimate documentation that verifies your statement that other European countries are turning to the free market for health care.

The information I provided in all of my links, and every legitimate study indicates that under their current system in other countries produces better outcomes for less money.

it's inevitable as costs are skyrocketing....

Europe's Failing Health - WSJ.com

Reformers want to reduce the state's role in health-care delivery and introduce a competitive element. Those against change are adamant that a health-care system without state involvement is health care without a heart. Good for the rich, calamitous for the poor. It is an issue heavily clouded by emotion. But many feel that without innovation, crumbling state-backed systems will collapse as they struggle to cope with aging populations, soaring overheads and, more recently, mounting budget deficits.

The statistics paint a bleak picture. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the European Union will see an increase in health expenditure of 350% by 2050, whereas at the same time the economy is only set to expand by 180%.

....

However, those closely watching reform in the U.K. believe change is inevitable. "I am not denying there are potential unsavory consequences to consider, but bringing the market into health care can serve everyone in terms of falling waiting times and improving the provision of health care," says James Gubb, director of the health unit at Civitas in London.

But why are we only now starting to see hints of change in health-care systems in Europe? "People are gradually realizing monopoly-style systems are becoming obsolete and unaffordable," Mr. Hjertqvist says. "Health care should be looked at as the largest industry in Europe but instead it has for too long been regarded as an administrative operation."

 

[ron4342]

21 graphs that show America?s health-care prices are ludicrous - The Washington Post

Again, please note the countries used for comparison.

That link needs repeating.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wo...are-ludicrous/

This link illustrates a mental flaw in the way right wingers think. The information in this link is clear and unequivocal, yet the wing nuts on this thread will ignore it and the facts it presents. It illustrates the way wing nuts think:

I KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE AND I DO NOT WANT TO BE BOTHERED BY FACTS OR THE TRUTH!!!

this is what needs repeating.....you lefties are DIMwits....saps and suckers......

exactly WHY do you think prices are lower in those other countries....????

it's called PRICE FIXING.....

dumbasses...

Duh..... Why do you think prices are so high in America? Why do we pay more for medical care than any other country in the world? It is because doctors set their own price and they can charge you what they want to. If you don't like it you can go to another doctor who saw the first doctor raise prices and has raised his to the same level.
The bottom line here is that in the United States doctors DO NOT compete with each other. If one doctor raises his prices over time so will all the other doctors. That is not how capitalism is supposed to work.

 

[rdean]

Someone needs to ask Jay Carney this question! what happens when Americans start dropping like flies come 2014 when they either can't get an appt., can't find the right doctor, waiting in a crowded ER, die over a misdiagnosis, etc.
Actually, someone needs to ask that of Barry, but he wont take any questions regarding this debacle ever!
Can you imagine if this horrific scenario happens next year and "You Know Who" still wont repeal it?

Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths to lack of insurance | Reuters

 

[Barbarap]

what you can learn from them is that socialized medicine eventually produces bad results...

there is plenty of 'documentation' if you just go out there and look...

from your own links....
many countries that have tried socialized medicine are now turning to the free market to improve their systems.....in fact many of the European countries in your report....

Please provide legitimate documentation that verifies your statement that other European countries are turning to the free market for health care.

The information I provided in all of my links, and every legitimate study indicates that under their current system in other countries produces better outcomes for less money.

it's inevitable as costs are skyrocketing....

Europe's Failing Health - WSJ.com

Reformers want to reduce the state's role in health-care delivery and introduce a competitive element. Those against change are adamant that a health-care system without state involvement is health care without a heart. Good for the rich, calamitous for the poor. It is an issue heavily clouded by emotion. But many feel that without innovation, crumbling state-backed systems will collapse as they struggle to cope with aging populations, soaring overheads and, more recently, mounting budget deficits.

The statistics paint a bleak picture. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the European Union will see an increase in health expenditure of 350% by 2050, whereas at the same time the economy is only set to expand by 180%.

....

However, those closely watching reform in the U.K. believe change is inevitable. "I am not denying there are potential unsavory consequences to consider, but bringing the market into health care can serve everyone in terms of falling waiting times and improving the provision of health care," says James Gubb, director of the health unit at Civitas in London.

But why are we only now starting to see hints of change in health-care systems in Europe? "People are gradually realizing monopoly-style systems are becoming obsolete and unaffordable," Mr. Hjertqvist says. "Health care should be looked at as the largest industry in Europe but instead it has for too long been regarded as an administrative operation."

So, did you read the article you linked?

They are not moving toward a complete free market system as you stated. The model they are proposing is remarkably similar to the ACA. Costs would be paid partially by the state and partially by private insurance companies.

 

[ron4342]

Doctor shortage may not be as bad as feared, study says

More information on that 'doctor shortage'.

When I have a medical problem, I expect to see a doctor, not a nurse or an assistant. This is not going to go well.

From the above link:

A surplus of 34,000 nurse practitioners, about 48% above demand, and 4,000 surplus physician assistants will help relieve the doctor shortage

When a person goes to medical school to become a doctor they spend time studying every part of the body. But suppose you go to a doctor because of a broken arm. Do you really need a doctor who is an expert on infectious diseases, heart problems, diabetes problems, arthritus, stomach problems to set that bone? No! You need someone who is an expert in setting broken bones and it does not take seven years to teach a person that skill.
And by the way, that does not mean that P.A. are not under the supervision of a doctor. If they see something that they have not been trained to handle they can call the doctor in to consult. The truth of the matter is that 90% of the broken bones can probably be easily set by a properly trained P.A. which then allows the doctors to see the patients who really need to see him/her.

 

[ron4342]

this is what needs repeating.....you lefties are DIMwits....saps and suckers......

exactly WHY do you think prices are lower in those other countries....????

it's called PRICE FIXING.....

dumbasses...

We pay more for our drugs and medical care than anywhere else in the world. We don't get our moneys worth

we have a mixed-bag system.....but typically you will pay more for things where the government has intervened......or else get less....

we've had so far still some incentive for profit in the medical industry so we have the most innovative system in the world with top notch healthcare....which is one reason why many from Canada and elsewhere around the world come to the USA for their treatments and surgeries...

Here is a simple fact that you people constantly overlook with that stupid argument about people coming to the US for health care: THE PEOPLE WHO COME HERE FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES ARE ALL EXTREMELY WEALTHY. The common people in other countries cannot afford to come here. What you are speaking of is the 1%.

Here is another simple fact thay you people continually overlook: I COULD LIVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE MAYO CLINIC BUT IF I DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY OR INSURANCE TO GO THERE IT MIGHT AS WELL BE ON THE FAR SIDE OF THE MOON.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

Please provide legitimate documentation that verifies your statement that other European countries are turning to the free market for health care.

The information I provided in all of my links, and every legitimate study indicates that under their current system in other countries produces better outcomes for less money.

it's inevitable as costs are skyrocketing....

Europe's Failing Health - WSJ.com

Reformers want to reduce the state's role in health-care delivery and introduce a competitive element. Those against change are adamant that a health-care system without state involvement is health care without a heart. Good for the rich, calamitous for the poor. It is an issue heavily clouded by emotion. But many feel that without innovation, crumbling state-backed systems will collapse as they struggle to cope with aging populations, soaring overheads and, more recently, mounting budget deficits.

The statistics paint a bleak picture. According to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, the European Union will see an increase in health expenditure of 350% by 2050, whereas at the same time the economy is only set to expand by 180%.

....

However, those closely watching reform in the U.K. believe change is inevitable. "I am not denying there are potential unsavory consequences to consider, but bringing the market into health care can serve everyone in terms of falling waiting times and improving the provision of health care," says James Gubb, director of the health unit at Civitas in London.

But why are we only now starting to see hints of change in health-care systems in Europe? "People are gradually realizing monopoly-style systems are becoming obsolete and unaffordable," Mr. Hjertqvist says. "Health care should be looked at as the largest industry in Europe but instead it has for too long been regarded as an administrative operation."

So, did you read the article you linked?

They are not moving toward a complete free market system as you stated. The model they are proposing is remarkably similar to the ACA. Costs would be paid partially by the state and partially by private insurance companies.

what part of "private" don't you get....?

of course many of the Euros don't want to give up their systems but the government ones they got are FAILING and GOING BROKE....need i be any more clear...?

 

[ron4342]

Doctor shortage may not be as bad as feared, study says

More information on that 'doctor shortage'.

When I have a medical problem, I expect to see a doctor, not a nurse or an assistant. This is not going to go well.

From the above link:

A surplus of 34,000 nurse practitioners, about 48% above demand, and 4,000 surplus physician assistants will help relieve the doctor shortage

why should a doctor who has spent so much time, money, and energy on becoming a doctor work like hell for the same income a truck driver gets.....?

doctors are people too......if they don't get the compensation they deserve many will just say "shove it" and leave the field.....it's much easier to drive a truck....and many more will not even enter med school....

I am curious screaming eagle, can you name one country that has scrapped it's health care program to adopt our program? And I should point out that IF are health care system is so good why are we not #1 the longivity. We are not even in the top 5 countries, the top 10 countries, etc. With our wonderful healthcare system we #32. People in the Cayman Islands, Hong Kong, and Singapore can expect to live longer than people in the US.

 

[ScreamingEagle]

That link needs repeating.

http://m.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wo...are-ludicrous/

This link illustrates a mental flaw in the way right wingers think. The information in this link is clear and unequivocal, yet the wing nuts on this thread will ignore it and the facts it presents. It illustrates the way wing nuts think:

I KNOW WHAT I BELIEVE AND I DO NOT WANT TO BE BOTHERED BY FACTS OR THE TRUTH!!!

this is what needs repeating.....you lefties are DIMwits....saps and suckers......

exactly WHY do you think prices are lower in those other countries....????

it's called PRICE FIXING.....

dumbasses...

Duh..... Why do you think prices are so high in America? Why do we pay more for medical care than any other country in the world? It is because doctors set their own price and they can charge you what they want to. If you don't like it you can go to another doctor who saw the first doctor raise prices and has raised his to the same level.
The bottom line here is that in the United States doctors DO NOT compete with each other. If one doctor raises his prices over time so will all the other doctors. That is not how capitalism is supposed to work.

you haven't a clue do you....? medicine is a business...competition in a free market will lower prices while government interference will typically increase them....

when doctors are dealing with a 'government' patient the government sets the reimbursement price....usually too low so the doctor has to scramble to recover his costs...

let's say a doctor has 1 Medicaid/Medicare patient and 1 regular patient.....let's say the government pays him $100 for a procedure for the M/M patient......it's not enough money to cover his cost of $200.....he's short $100.....so he charges his regular patient $300 for the same procedure to recoup his costs...

 

[Barbarap]

it's inevitable as costs are skyrocketing....

So, did you read the article you linked?

They are not moving toward a complete free market system as you stated. The model they are proposing is remarkably similar to the ACA. Costs would be paid partially by the state and partially by private insurance companies.

what part of "private" don't you get....?

of course many of the Euros don't want to give up their systems but the government ones they got are FAILING and GOING BROKE....need i be any more clear...?

Apparently you failed to read your own link.

If you bother to read it, you will see that the proposed changes are remarkably similar to the ACA.



Note the area that talks about having people choose from state approved policies offered by private insurance.... Sound familiar?

Note the area that talks about state subsidies for low income folks... Sound familiar?

Of course, first you have to know what the ACA is all about before you can make a comparison.

Try again...

 

[ScreamingEagle]

When I have a medical problem, I expect to see a doctor, not a nurse or an assistant. This is not going to go well.

From the above link:

why should a doctor who has spent so much time, money, and energy on becoming a doctor work like hell for the same income a truck driver gets.....?

doctors are people too......if they don't get the compensation they deserve many will just say "shove it" and leave the field.....it's much easier to drive a truck....and many more will not even enter med school....

I am curious screaming eagle, can you name one country that has scrapped it's health care program to adopt our program? And I should point out that IF are health care system is so good why are we not #1 the longivity. We are not even in the top 5 countries, the top 10 countries, etc. With our wonderful healthcare system we #32. People in the Cayman Islands, Hong Kong, and Singapore can expect to live longer than people in the US.

the Cayman Islands, Hong Kong, and Singapore are small places compared to the U.S......besides who knows how they gather their data....?

why don't you move to Cuba.....it's supposed to have the best healthcare in the world.....

 

[ScreamingEagle]

So, did you read the article you linked?

They are not moving toward a complete free market system as you stated. The model they are proposing is remarkably similar to the ACA. Costs would be paid partially by the state and partially by private insurance companies.

what part of "private" don't you get....?

of course many of the Euros don't want to give up their systems but the government ones they got are FAILING and GOING BROKE....need i be any more clear...?

Apparently you failed to read your own link.

If you bother to read it, you will see that the proposed changes are remarkably similar to the ACA.



Note the area that talks about having people choose from state approved policies offered by private insurance.... Sound familiar?

Note the area that talks about state subsidies for low income folks... Sound familiar?

Of course, first you have to know what the ACA is all about before you can make a comparison.

Try again...

wow.....you are totally in denial aren't you.....?

the fact is the socialized medicine types are moving TOWARD the free market in order to solve their problems....not the other way.....

meanwhile the fuckup Dimwits here are heading us toward socialized medicine....higher costs and less care....

 

[ScreamingEagle]

We pay more for our drugs and medical care than anywhere else in the world. We don't get our moneys worth

we have a mixed-bag system.....but typically you will pay more for things where the government has intervened......or else get less....

we've had so far still some incentive for profit in the medical industry so we have the most innovative system in the world with top notch healthcare....which is one reason why many from Canada and elsewhere around the world come to the USA for their treatments and surgeries...

Here is a simple fact that you people constantly overlook with that stupid argument about people coming to the US for health care: THE PEOPLE WHO COME HERE FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES ARE ALL EXTREMELY WEALTHY. The common people in other countries cannot afford to come here. What you are speaking of is the 1%.

Here is another simple fact thay you people continually overlook: I COULD LIVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE MAYO CLINIC BUT IF I DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY OR INSURANCE TO GO THERE IT MIGHT AS WELL BE ON THE FAR SIDE OF THE MOON.

you are a laugh......why do you think the WEALTHY people from other countries come here in the first place...? It's because we have better medicine and facilities.....top notch better care.....otherwise they would stay in their own socialized medicine countries...

if you live across the street from Mayo then you need to buy at least catastrophic insurance which (b4 Obamacare) was reasonably priced and which would pay for your heart attack procedure at Mayo....

 

[ron4342]

this is what needs repeating.....you lefties are DIMwits....saps and suckers......

exactly WHY do you think prices are lower in those other countries....????

it's called PRICE FIXING.....

dumbasses...

Duh..... Why do you think prices are so high in America? Why do we pay more for medical care than any other country in the world? It is because doctors set their own price and they can charge you what they want to. If you don't like it you can go to another doctor who saw the first doctor raise prices and has raised his to the same level.
The bottom line here is that in the United States doctors DO NOT compete with each other. If one doctor raises his prices over time so will all the other doctors. That is not how capitalism is supposed to work.

you haven't a clue do you....? medicine is a business...competition in a free market will lower prices while government interference will typically increase them....

when doctors are dealing with a 'government' patient the government sets the reimbursement price....usually too low so the doctor has to scramble to recover his costs...

let's say a doctor has 1 Medicaid/Medicare patient and 1 regular patient.....let's say the government pays him $100 for a procedure for the M/M patient......it's not enough money to cover his cost of $200.....he's short $100.....so he charges his regular patient $300 for the same procedure to recoup his costs...

I don't buy your argument. I do agree with you on one thing, "medicine is a business." As a business its primary goal is to make as much money as it can. The truth of the matter is that IF Medicare had not been put in place the costs for medical care would probably be even higher than they are today.

What is the History of Medicare?

Medicare was created in 1965 when people over 65 found it virtually impossible to get private health insurance coverage. Medicare has made access to health care a universal right for Americans once they reach age 65. This has helped improve the health and longevity of older Americans.

However, the program was created during an era when the big financial worry was that an illness might put someone in the hospital and generate huge bills. This was a period before the widespread use of prescription drugs to combat illness. The basic design of the Medicare program was modeled on the private insurance system in place in the 1960s. As the health care system has changed, many would argue that Medicare's benefits have not kept pace.
http://www.nasi.org/learn/medicare/history

 

[Barbarap]

we have a mixed-bag system.....but typically you will pay more for things where the government has intervened......or else get less....

we've had so far still some incentive for profit in the medical industry so we have the most innovative system in the world with top notch healthcare....which is one reason why many from Canada and elsewhere around the world come to the USA for their treatments and surgeries...

Here is a simple fact that you people constantly overlook with that stupid argument about people coming to the US for health care: THE PEOPLE WHO COME HERE FROM FOREIGN COUNTRIES ARE ALL EXTREMELY WEALTHY. The common people in other countries cannot afford to come here. What you are speaking of is the 1%.

Here is another simple fact thay you people continually overlook: I COULD LIVE ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE MAYO CLINIC BUT IF I DO NOT HAVE THE MONEY OR INSURANCE TO GO THERE IT MIGHT AS WELL BE ON THE FAR SIDE OF THE MOON.

you are a laugh......why do you think the WEALTHY people from other countries come here in the first place...? It's because we have better medicine and facilities.....top notch better care.....otherwise they would stay in their own socialized medicine countries...

if you live across the street from Mayo then you need to buy at least catastrophic insurance which (b4 Obamacare) was reasonably priced and which would pay for your heart attack procedure at Mayo....

Screaming, you really don't know anything about health care, do you?

There are at least ten people in the department I work in who have health care benefits for services in this country that have, over the past couple years, gone to other countries for health care. They get treated cheaper and get a mini vacation at the same time. How could that be if the current health care system in our country is so great ?

Also, the mayo clinic will only take you if your insurance is one they accept. Chances are that even if you were across the street from mayo clinic and had a heart attack, you would be taken to the nearest trauma center rather than be treated at the mayo clinic for that heart attack.

 

[Barbarap]

what part of "private" don't you get....?

of course many of the Euros don't want to give up their systems but the government ones they got are FAILING and GOING BROKE....need i be any more clear...?

Apparently you failed to read your own link.

If you bother to read it, you will see that the proposed changes are remarkably similar to the ACA.



Note the area that talks about having people choose from state approved policies offered by private insurance.... Sound familiar?

Note the area that talks about state subsidies for low income folks... Sound familiar?

Of course, first you have to know what the ACA is all about before you can make a comparison.

Try again...

wow.....you are totally in denial aren't you.....?

the fact is the socialized medicine types are moving TOWARD the free market in order to solve their problems....not the other way.....

meanwhile the fuckup Dimwits here are heading us toward socialized medicine....higher costs and less care....

Ok... It is possible you are reading the article you linked, but you just are not comphrending what it says.

Try again and pay particular attention to the areas I pointed out earlier.

Cherry picking statements and providing them out of context does nothing to increase your understanding if the issue.

 

[Oldstyle]

once that first story hits the media, lets see how the left spins it. "well, ahh, she was gonna die anyway".

What will be more interesting is how the right spins it. The have had a campaign of lies and misinformation right from the start. Remember the famous Death Panels and "Obama wants to kill granny." It has been one lie after another from the right which is why I no longer hear them or pay attention to their claims.

I've got news for you, Ron...there will have to be rationing of healthcare. You can give it any name you want but the fact remains that we don't have enough doctors to take care of the additional people who will now have government subsidized healthcare or serious health issues. Anyone who's had the misfortune to have to visit a hospital ER lately knows how bad the waits are NOW...just wait until ObamaCare kicks in! It's gonna get ugly, fast!

 

[ron4342]

why should a doctor who has spent so much time, money, and energy on becoming a doctor work like hell for the same income a truck driver gets.....?

doctors are people too......if they don't get the compensation they deserve many will just say "shove it" and leave the field.....it's much easier to drive a truck....and many more will not even enter med school....

I am curious screaming eagle, can you name one country that has scrapped it's health care program to adopt our program? And I should point out that IF are health care system is so good why are we not #1 the longivity. We are not even in the top 5 countries, the top 10 countries, etc. With our wonderful healthcare system we #32. People in the Cayman Islands, Hong Kong, and Singapore can expect to live longer than people in the US.

the Cayman Islands, Hong Kong, and Singapore are small places compared to the U.S......besides who knows how they gather their data....?

why don't you move to Cuba.....it's supposed to have the best healthcare in the world.....

As I understand it Cuba has some of the best healthcare in the world and they do it at a fraction of the cost of what we pay. That said, there are other factors involved in where a person chooses to live. For example, you want the government to get out of the way. You are claiming that it is the government screwing everything up. Let me give you a suggestion. Have you ever considered moving to Somolia? There is almost no government at all. Taxes are amazingly low and nobody tells busines what they must do or how they should behave.
And by the way, my point, which you choose to ignore, is that we're #1 in money spent on health care yet there are #32 countries where people live longer on average than Americans. It seems to me that IF we are spending all that money and are 33rd on the list we must be doing something wrong. Only someone who is blind, deaf, and dumb or completly closed minded could miss that rather simple fact.

 

[Barbarap]

once that first story hits the media, lets see how the left spins it. "well, ahh, she was gonna die anyway".

What will be more interesting is how the right spins it. The have had a campaign of lies and misinformation right from the start. Remember the famous Death Panels and "Obama wants to kill granny." It has been one lie after another from the right which is why I no longer hear them or pay attention to their claims.

I've got news for you, Ron...there will have to be rationing of healthcare. You can give it any name you want but the fact remains that we don't have enough doctors to take care of the additional people who will now have government subsidized healthcare or serious health issues. Anyone who's had the misfortune to have to visit a hospital ER lately knows how bad the waits are NOW...just wait until ObamaCare kicks in! It's gonna get ugly, fast!

We have rationing of health care now. Every time I have a procedure done or see a doc other than my PCP, I have to get authorization from my insurance. There have been times when they have not authorized treatment that the doc prescribed.

 

[ron4342]

once that first story hits the media, lets see how the left spins it. "well, ahh, she was gonna die anyway".

What will be more interesting is how the right spins it. The have had a campaign of lies and misinformation right from the start. Remember the famous Death Panels and "Obama wants to kill granny." It has been one lie after another from the right which is why I no longer hear them or pay attention to their claims.

I've got news for you, Ron...there will have to be rationing of healthcare. You can give it any name you want but the fact remains that we don't have enough doctors to take care of the additional people who will now have government subsidized healthcare or serious health issues. Anyone who's had the misfortune to have to visit a hospital ER lately knows how bad the waits are NOW...just wait until ObamaCare kicks in! It's gonna get ugly, fast!

That is exactly what you are hoping for, isn't it?
Yes, there will be problems, just as there were problems when Medicare kicked in. Those problems were solved. Now try and repeal Medicare and see how far you will get. The same thing will happen with ACA.
Interesting name you have chosen. When I see the words "old style" I think of something that has not changed. Applied to a person it would mean someone who prefers the past and does not want future change. It would refer to someone who was content with a world where nothing changed and who preferred a past they knew over a future they feared. It would infer a willingness to stay still or move backward rather than moving forward. But that is just what I think.