Palestianian Legitimacy Versus Terrorism

[Roudy]

one has nothing to do with the other.

there are no internationally recognised "terrorist organisations." some people call the IDF a terrorist organtsation.

there more reasons for this attack than there was for the prior shooting attacks on palestinian civilians by the IDF after the cease fire that have left at least one palestinian dead and several injured.

Sure there are internationally recognized terrorist organizations, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Queda, Islamic Jihad, etc. are among organizations that most of the West and civilized nations recognize as terrorist. The IDF is not recognized as terrorist if only by Islamic terrorist organizations or pariah nations. Just because you don't recognize Islamic terrorists as terrorists, doesn't mean that is the case.

they are not recognised by any international body.

i don't recognise any organisation as a "terrorist" organisation.. it serves absolutely no purpose other than to inflame people, and inflamed people shoot sikhs in wisconsin and things like that, little else..

That's just your opinion. Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the US, Europe, Japan, Australia, Canada, etc. and rightly so. Many people have gone to Federal Prison for being Hamas supporters.

 

[Hossfly]

Sure there are internationally recognized terrorist organizations, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Queda, Islamic Jihad, etc. are among organizations that most of the West and civilized nations recognize as terrorist. The IDF is not recognized as terrorist if only by Islamic terrorist organizations or pariah nations. Just because you don't recognize Islamic terrorists as terrorists, doesn't mean that is the case.

they are not recognised by any international body.

i don't recognise any organisation as a "terrorist" organisation.. it serves absolutely no purpose other than to inflame people, and inflamed people shoot sikhs in wisconsin and things like that, little else..

That's just your opinion. Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the US, Europe, Japan, Australia, Canada, etc. and rightly so. Many people have gone to Federal Prison for being Hamas supporters.

Everyone but Sherri. Maybe she's Teflon coated.

 

[RoccoR]

Connery, et al,

I am not sure I understand the concept of "Palestinian Legitimacy." Yet, I see the growth of sympathy for the Palestinians nearly everywhere I look.

Palestine stated they wanted to go to the ICC..."Authority (PA) decided on Monday to take the Israeli occupation to the International Criminal Court (ICC) for crimes against Palestinians in general, and against deceased Palestinian prisoner, Arafat Jaradat, in particular."
.... .... ....
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Palestine supports terrorist organizations and their acts while claiming to have legitimate claims against Israel to be forwarded to the ICC for adjudication for those complained of acts. There is no justification for this attack by this terrorist organization and no valid reason why Palestine should not prosecute this organization's members.
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(PREFACE)

• Palestine supports terrorist organizations and their acts.
• Palestine should (x) prosecute.

For decades, Palestinian political forces have exercised their right of resistance in various ways, including the extraordinary non-violent Intifada of 1987, but also engaging in armed resistance in defence of their territory. The Palestinians definitely enjoy a right of resistance, although subject to the limits of international humanitarian law, which rules out deliberate targeting of civilians and non-military targets. Such tactics of resistance challenge Israel at its point of maximum comparative advantage due both to its total military dominance, achieved in part by large subsidies from the United States, and to its ruthless disregard for civilian innocence. -

SOURCE: The Palestinians are winning the legitimacy war: will it matter? > Palestine > Redress Information & Analysis

Considering that the progressive development and codification of the following principles:

(a) The principle that States shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations,

(b) The principle that States shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security and justice are not endangered,

(c) The duty not to intervene in matters within the domestic jurisdiction of any State, in accordance with the Charter,

(d) The duty of States to co-operate with one another in accordance with the Charter,

(e) The principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples,

(f) The principle of sovereign equality of States,

(g) The principle that States shall fulfil in good faith the obligations assumed by them in accordance with the Charter,​

SOURCE: DECLARATION ON PRINCIPLES OF INTERNATIONAL LAW FRIENDLY RELATIONS AND CO

(COMMENT)

There is a disconnect between what the "Indigenous Resistance Movement" means, and it application through "Asymmetric Violence" (or terrorism). Is there a "right to resistance," and if so, what are its boundaries?

On the one hand, the UN (General Assembly Members), and all its tentacles, recognize the right of Israel to exist. There may be arguments as to the boundaries, but in general - as a nation, the State of Israel has the right to exist.

On the other hand, the UN has generally allowed [ONE] the regional Arab Governments, on multiple occasions, to set the conditions for war (1948, 1967, 1973) without penalty: tacit approval. It also permits [TWO] the conditions to exist which allows the Indigenous Palestinians under several different banners (Hamas, Hezbollah, Palestine Islamic Jihad, Popular Resistance Committees, etc) to operate without impunity; again a form of tacit approval. [THREE] And lastly, the UN openly allows the armed wing of the Islamic Jihad (Al-Quds Brigades) to receive direct support from Iranian and Syrian, proving their improved capabilities in the face of Israel’s Defense Initiatives. The UN General Assembly is, in effect, promoting hostilities to flourish in targeting Israel.

• Now there were some that say, this is a misinterpretation of the facts. Yet, in an attempt to hold ground at defensible boundaries from assault from countries that the UN has allowed to attack it on multiple occasions, the UN has insisted that Israel should drop its defenses; and withdraw to positional borders favorable to Arab Army attack.
  
  
• Some say, this is a misinterpretation of the facts. Yet, in an attempt to manage an insurgency by the indigenous populations of the Occupied Territories, the UN has insisted that Israel should drop its defenses and dismantle border barriers and walls. With the UN favoring Palestinian terrorist groups with opening accesses to infiltration.
  
  
• Some say, this is a misinterpretation of the facts. But the UN General Assembly, even in the face of the principle that disputes should be handled in a peaceful means and knowing that Iran and Syria have been supplying various terrorist in the Occupied Territories with weapons, insisted that Israel should drop its defenses and allow unrestricted trafficking of weapons into the volatile region.

Legitimacy sometimes transcends what is right and what is wrong. In this case, the Palestinians have acquired some strong indicators of Legitimacy from the membership in the General Assembly. It would appear that the UN General Assembly and the ICC/ICJ has, begun the process in setting the stage for yet another major conflict between Israel and the coalition of Palestinian Insurgent Groups, the Arab Regional States, and the Persians (Iran). The intent is not yet clear, but the indicators are all there.

(CONCLUSION)

It is most evident that the UN General Assembly, by not stating unequivocally, that the continuous terrorist actions (that have been noted numerous times) are unacceptable, lend tacit approval to the campaign of continued asymmetric activity. "Legitimacy" - specifically to the Palestinian terrorist, and generally to the tactics of terrorism.

"The essence of this legitimacy war is to cast doubt on several dimensions of Israeli legitimacy: its status as a moral and law abiding actor, as an occupying power in relation to the Palestinian people, and with respect to its willingness to respect the United Nations and abide by international law." - See more at: http://www.redress.cc/palestine/rfalk20100405#sthash.rwJHY2z7.dpuf

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

..and there you have it. No proof, no incident. When you wish to further discuss this provide the requisite materials.

i gave you three newspaper articles from mainsteream israeli papers.

"According to the IDF, one Palestinian was fired upon after attempting to sabotage the fence."

The farmer story is unsubstantiated.

The 16 year old...."The IDF Spokesman's Office said the teenager had tried to breach the security fence at Budrus, which is northwest of Ramallah, adding that the man ignored orders from soldiers to stop and warning shots fired in the air."

Please cut the crap. These stories are not proof. Moreover, please start a new thread and address the issues I have presented in the OP.

address the issues I have presented in the OP

Sure.

There is no justification for this attack by this terrorist organization and no valid reason why Palestine should not prosecute this organization's members.

Palestine has no designated terrorist organizations to prosecute.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Sure there are internationally recognized terrorist organizations, Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Queda, Islamic Jihad, etc. are among organizations that most of the West and civilized nations recognize as terrorist. The IDF is not recognized as terrorist if only by Islamic terrorist organizations or pariah nations. Just because you don't recognize Islamic terrorists as terrorists, doesn't mean that is the case.

they are not recognised by any international body.

i don't recognise any organisation as a "terrorist" organisation.. it serves absolutely no purpose other than to inflame people, and inflamed people shoot sikhs in wisconsin and things like that, little else..

That's just your opinion. Hamas is considered a terrorist organization by the US, Europe, Japan, Australia, Canada, etc. and rightly so. Many people have gone to Federal Prison for being Hamas supporters.

A dozen or so countries out of almost 200 say that Hamas are terrorists.

WOW, should I be impressed?

 

[Billo_Really]

"According to the IDF, one Palestinian was fired upon after attempting to sabotage the fence."

The farmer story is unsubstantiated.

The 16 year old...."The IDF Spokesman's Office said the teenager had tried to breach the security fence at Budrus, which is northwest of Ramallah, adding that the man ignored orders from soldiers to stop and warning shots fired in the air."

Please cut the crap. These stories are not proof. Moreover, please start a new thread and address the issues I have presented in the OP.

Oh, they're proof! You're just not mature enough to admit it.

 

[Billo_Really]

I did not see any autopsy report, moreover, this situation has not been investigated to conclusion for the purpose of establishing this person was tortured to death.

So you didn't read the link I provided?

 

[Billo_Really]

Nope, you make an assertion you need to provide proof. Wise ass...

You want proof you fuckin' asshole?


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=010E1x2DPHE]Israeli Soldiers Shooting at Farmers in Abassan Jedida - YouTube[/ame]


There's your proof!


Although, you're too much of a coward to probably watch it!

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is too funny. Paul ---> Sometimes you kill me.

Palestine has no designated terrorist organizations to prosecute.

(COMMENT)

Yeah! It would be kind'a hard to prosecute yourself. Hamas is a state sponsor of terrorism.

See: Hamas: The Organizations, Goals and Tactics of a Militant Palestinian Organization.
Hamas: The Organizations, Goals and Tactics of a Militant Palestinian Organization.
OCTOBER 14, 1993

Its not about an indigenous population that supports terrorism, it about what your government pursues. Hamas has used both political and violent means, including terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Hamas should refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel. However, Hamas and the Palestinian People chose otherwise. That is what makes them different and separates them from other nations.

Stanley Cohen, a lawyer who has represented Muslim and Palestinian activists and imams, says, "To much of the world, Hamas is not viewed as a terrorist organization but rather a national liberation movement involved in low-intensity, asymmetric warfare. To much of the world, or many in the world community, Israel is viewed as a terrorist state."
Hamas: Government or Terrorist Organization? : NPR

The European Union considers "Hamas", including "Hamas-Izz al-Din al-Qassem," a terrorist organization.
EUR-Lex - - EN
List of designated terrorist organizations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

There is a disconnect between what the "Indigenous Resistance Movement" means, and it application through "Asymmetric Violence" (or terrorism). Is there a "right to resistance," and if so, what are its boundaries?

Indeed, the Palestinians have the right to self defense including ending the occupation of their country.

If by boundaries, you mean physical boundaries, the Palestinians have not operated outside of their borders for decades.

If by boundaries, you mean inside the rules of conflict, that is another story. There are rules governing occupations. One of these rules define "protected persons." The term civilian is commonly, but not completely accurately, used to designate protected persons.

Even when the definition of protected persons is set out in this way, it may seem rather complicated. Nevertheless, disregarding points of detail, it will be seen that there are two main classes of protected person: (1) ' enemy nationals ' within the national territory of each of the Parties to the conflict and (2) ' the whole population ' of occupied territories (excluding nationals of the Occupying Power).

International Humanitarian Law - Fourth 1949 Geneva Convention

I read this to mean that all Palestinians are civilians and Israel has no civilians.

With this in mind, what terrorist acts have the Palestinians committed?

 

[Billo_Really]

Hamas should refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel.

You cannot ask a population under occupation not to threaten the use of force.

A population under occupation has every right in the world to resist a foreign force.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

This is too funny. Paul ---> Sometimes you kill me.

Palestine has no designated terrorist organizations to prosecute.

(COMMENT)

Yeah! It would be kind'a hard to prosecute yourself. Hamas is a state sponsor of terrorism.

See: Hamas: The Organizations, Goals and Tactics of a Militant Palestinian Organization.
Hamas: The Organizations, Goals and Tactics of a Militant Palestinian Organization.
OCTOBER 14, 1993

Its not about an indigenous population that supports terrorism, it about what your government pursues. Hamas has used both political and violent means, including terrorism, to pursue the goal of establishing an Islamic Palestinian state in place of Israel. Hamas should refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel. However, Hamas and the Palestinian People chose otherwise. That is what makes them different and separates them from other nations.

Stanley Cohen, a lawyer who has represented Muslim and Palestinian activists and imams, says, "To much of the world, Hamas is not viewed as a terrorist organization but rather a national liberation movement involved in low-intensity, asymmetric warfare. To much of the world, or many in the world community, Israel is viewed as a terrorist state."
Hamas: Government or Terrorist Organization? : NPR

The European Union considers "Hamas", including "Hamas-Izz al-Din al-Qassem," a terrorist organization.
EUR-Lex - - EN
List of designated terrorist organizations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia​

Most Respectfully,
R

The CRS is a highly biased organization.

Stanley Cohen, a lawyer who has represented Muslim and Palestinian activists and imams, says, "To much of the world, Hamas is not viewed as a terrorist organization but rather a national liberation movement involved in low-intensity, asymmetric warfare. To much of the world, or many in the world community, Israel is viewed as a terrorist state."
Hamas: Government or Terrorist Organization? : NPR

Indeed.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Hamas should refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel.

You cannot ask a population under occupation not to threaten the use of force.

A population under occupation has every right in the world to resist a foreign force.

And besides, what "territorial integrity" can Israel have since it has no borders and sits inside Palestine's borders?

 

[Lipush]

Isreal has created through years of abuse, bombing, torture, and indisriminate murder of civilians a ton of people who hate them. yes the legitimate angle is the way forward, (no thanks to isreal) but the missiles will still fall for a little while they hate your (isreals) gutts for killing their family and freinds.

They opened a war in 1948, a war which they're still paying the price to.

Maybe the greater lesson is "Don't try to destroy the Jews"?

 

[irosie91]

Muslims learned "LOGIC" from christians, jews and zoroastrians when they
invaded, pillaged, raped and murdered in IRAQ more than 1000 years ago In fact one of their early "philosphers" Al FARRABI learned well. He wrote like a real intellect .

Unfortunately the basic barbarism of islam -----never went away and the
logical systems gave way to sophistry designed to justify islamic genocides

One of the justifications includes "NO UNIFORMS" islamic sophistry as
described by tinnie LEGALIZES grabbing teenaged kaffir boys and
inflicting OBSCENE MUTILATION TORTURE MURDERS upon them ---made
LEGAL simply because the murders ---both mode and fact---encouraged
in mosques are enacted by people WHO WEAR NO UNIFORM
as tinnie so correctly notes WITH DELIGHT

 

[jodylee]

Isreal has created through years of abuse, bombing, torture, and indisriminate murder of civilians a ton of people who hate them. yes the legitimate angle is the way forward, (no thanks to isreal) but the missiles will still fall for a little while they hate your (isreals) gutts for killing their family and freinds.

They opened a war in 1948, a war which they're still paying the price to.

Maybe the greater lesson is "Don't try to destroy the Jews"?

This is getting boring, the european zionists invaded palestine using refugees as cover and terrorisum as their main weapon. This is not the great coming home of the jews that many zionist belive it is, its a european/western colonialization of palestine, simple.
stop your internel dialog, you are wrong, and probably an extreamly grotesque and ugly freak.

 

[pbel]

Isreal has created through years of abuse, bombing, torture, and indisriminate murder of civilians a ton of people who hate them. yes the legitimate angle is the way forward, (no thanks to isreal) but the missiles will still fall for a little while they hate your (isreals) gutts for killing their family and freinds.

They opened a war in 1948, a war which they're still paying the price to.

Maybe the greater lesson is "Don't try to destroy the Jews"?

This is getting boring, the european zionists invaded palestine using refugees as cover and terrorisum as their main weapon. This is not the great coming home of the jews that many zionist belive it is, its a european/western colonialization of palestine, simple.
stop your internel dialog, you are wrong, and probably an extreamly grotesque and ugly freak.

In all my years of posting, I've seen the pro Israeli posters on these boards as a reflection of the Israeli public as a people who have demonized the Palestinians as the trash of Islam...For a people who are forever vigilant of anti-Semitism, they practice their demonizing agenda as part of their war tactics...Hate is part of the agenda.

It really is disgraceful.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah,

Hamas should refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel.

You cannot ask a population under occupation not to threaten the use of force.

A population under occupation has every right in the world to resist a foreign force.

And besides, what "territorial integrity" can Israel have since it has no borders and sits inside Palestine's borders?

(COMMENT)

No such country as Palestine. Israel sits inside the old Mandate of Palestine, former Ottoman Empire. Just the very same as does Jordan.

This is a Fair Tale belief. But I answer this in the other discussion.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

loinboy, et al,

OK, but remember, you pay the piper.

Hamas should refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Israel.

You cannot ask a population under occupation not to threaten the use of force.

A population under occupation has every right in the world to resist a foreign force.

(COMMENT)

You may call it a "right" --- but whatever you call it, it has a price.

Don't complain when the bill comes due. There are peaceful means to resolve the dispute. Use them, you might be surprised.

But to tell your fellow Palestinians that they have this right is not in their best interest.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah,

You cannot ask a population under occupation not to threaten the use of force.

A population under occupation has every right in the world to resist a foreign force.

And besides, what "territorial integrity" can Israel have since it has no borders and sits inside Palestine's borders?

(COMMENT)

No such country as Palestine. Israel sits inside the old Mandate of Palestine, former Ottoman Empire. Just the very same as does Jordan.

This is a Fair Tale belief. But I answer this in the other discussion.

Most Respectfully,
R

Contrary to popular propaganda, Palestine exists separate from the mandate.