Personally Opposed to Homosexuality?... Judge OK's Expulsion from College...

[Yurt]

This is not an employment discrimination case and that terminology about changing beliefs comes from the author of that article, not necessarily the actual school policy and their requirements for graduating with a counseling degree.

?

not a discrimination case ....um....he won the "not" discrimination case

and i specifically said it was what the lawyer claimed....good lord, you really don't have good reading comprehension....know wonder you thought i was talking about stealing in that post when the reality is i never once mentioned stealing....

love ya, but please pay more attention to what i write

EMPLOYMENT discrimination...as is the case of the AT&T worker you cited which I was responding to.

it was an employment religious discrimination suit....good fucking lord

why are you so hung up on that....? what is your point?

 

[mal]

From your article:



she wasn't expelled because of her BELIEFS... she was expelled for refusing to do her training properly.

d'uh...

last i heard, they expel you for that sort of thing.

Yep, the expulsion has nothing to do with her religious belief: she refused to counsel queers.

The question is: how, or even, why, she would need to know the sexual preference of the subjects she was assigned to counsel? What sort of school teaches that this information makes a critical difference?

you have to be able to counsel EVERYONE to graduate. what you do after is up to you.

what kind of person picks a program they know they can't complete? did she think she could pick and choose.

now, back to my hypothetical meat store... would you suggest that the owner of such a place has to keep on a muslim who refuses to do that part of their job that requires they handle pork products?

or if such a person works in a school lunch room, where they are employed by a governmental entity ... should he or she have the right to pick and choose because he or she is a muslim?

i'd suggest that the people who are all for this woman would be appalled at the muslim in my hypothetical.

From what I Understand those kinds of Accommodations are made right now in certain settings...



peace...

 

[Yurt]

hey valerie.....here is the hearing and guess what....there was talk about the remediation as alleged:

in the informal review, basically, this… you kind of ag…. the three of you agreed that there was
2! no remediation plan that was feasible.
3! CALLAWAY: Mmm hmm.
4! DUGGER: That’s correct. The development of a remediation plan of course would, um,
5! be contingent on Ms. Ward’s recognition that she needed to make some changes. And, um, she
6! did not, um, express that, in fact expressed just the opposite. And, um, communicated an attempt
7! to maintain this belief system and those behaviors

http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews_impact/2009/04/EMUhearing_transcript.pdf

care to change your mind that they were not forcing her to alter her beliefs?

 

[Valerie]

so you support someone being forced to accept that homosexuality is moral?

open the yellow pages...there are counselors who specifically advertise they are christian counselors, this school violated the 1st amendment...and if the court used the "rational basis" test, it used the wrong test, because religious cases get strict scrutiny

Nope and I don't think that graduate school counseling program was requiring her to accept it as moral either.

you can think all you want....it was alleged in the lawsuit...and i don't recall the school denying it

And you can recall (and get hung up on) anything YOU want.







Eastern Michigan University hailed the decision.

“We are pleased that the court has upheld our position in this matter,” EMU spokesman Walter Kraft said in a written statement. “Julea Ward was not discriminated against because of her religion. To the contrary, Eastern Michigan is deeply committed to the education of our students and welcomes individuals from diverse backgrounds into our community.”

In his 48-page opinion, Judge Steeh said the university had a rational basis for adopting the ACA Code of Ethics.

“Furthermore, the university had a rational basis for requiring students to counsel clients without imposing their personal values,” he wrote in a portion of his ruling posted by The Detroit News. “In the case of Ms. Ward, the university determined that she would never change her behavior and would consistently refuse to counsel clients on matters with which she was personally opposed due to her religious beliefs – including homosexual relationships.”

 

[Yurt]

post 183 val

and i wouldn't trumpet teh ruling...it will get overturned

 

[Ravi]

The dispute that led to the litigation started in 2009, when Ward was enrolled in the practicum in which she was to engage in actual counseling. Faced with an appointment with a client whose file indicated past discussion of a gay relationship, Ward asked to refer the candidate to another counselor rather than engage in any counseling that could "affirm the client's homosexual behavior." Since this was two hours before the appointment, the supervising counselor canceled the appointment, but set off disciplinary hearings that eventually led to Ward being kicked out of the program.

She looked in the file, saw teh gay, freaked out and refused to do her coursework.

There is no reason on earth a school should not require students to do their course work.

 

[Valerie]

hey valerie.....here is the hearing and guess what....there was talk about the remediation as alleged:

in the informal review, basically, this… you kind of ag…. the three of you agreed that there was
2! no remediation plan that was feasible.
3! CALLAWAY: Mmm hmm.
4! DUGGER: That’s correct. The development of a remediation plan of course would, um,
5! be contingent on Ms. Ward’s recognition that she needed to make some changes. And, um, she
6! did not, um, express that, in fact expressed just the opposite. And, um, communicated an attempt
7! to maintain this belief system and those behaviors

http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews_impact/2009/04/EMUhearing_transcript.pdf

care to change your mind that they were not forcing her to alter her beliefs?

Nope, they were merely asking her to alter her behavior and belief system as it relates to the degree requirements, not alter her religious beliefs.

Other Christians managed to pass the program, just not THIS Christian.

 

[frazzledgear]

FOXNews.com - Court Upholds Expulsion of Counseling Student Who Opposes Homosexuality

^And I Thought those places were FOR Controversial Thought...

Challenging the Status Quo...

Apparently the Left is Incapable of being Challenged and if you Disagree with them, they will Kick you out of College for your Opinion.



peace...

This is old news. If she cant use the knowledge they gave her she shouldnt graduate.

You do realize there is are several conflicting schools of thought about how to best counsel homosexuals, depending on the reasons a homosexual might seek counseling in the first place, right? Not every counselor offers their services for every imaginable human problem -she LEARNED and PASSED the material they taught. Her mistake was allowing a professor to find out that once she becomes a licensed counselor, she would not be able to effectively counsel a homosexual about how to improve their homosexual relationships since that would conflict with her religious beliefs which says the homosexuality itself is the root of the person's problems.

Insisting she must counsel a homosexual about how to be a better homosexual partner as a professional is ludicrous -and no different than insisting someone interested in counseling women about how to avoid abortion by offering counseling on adoption services -must counsel her to abort the child instead. That isn't the service the counselor offers. If someone wants counseling on how to abort their child they must go somewhere else instead. SO WHAT? This is what the entire counseling field does all the time. If a person is a child mental health counselor -as this woman intended to be -then she would be referring couples heterosexual or not to find a different counselor who offered that service! Counseling homosexuals about how to be better homosexual partners isn't the kind of counseling service this woman intended to do either once she graduated and there are other counselors who have made that their speciality. The school effectively said she can't make that professional decision for herself by deciding she could not effectively counsel homosexuals and did not intend to specialize in that kind of counseling as a professional -and must be punished for it. Are you kidding me?

She did not intend to offer couples counseling at all - so where does this school get off punishing her for her religious views about homosexuality? And if she had kept her mouth shut about her religious views, this school would have graduated her because she LEARNED and passed all the material and fulfilled all the requirements. She was simply HONEST about her religious views. So this school essentially told any Christian with similar religious views to be DISHONEST and lie -or be punished for it. But ONLY after they had forked over all their money for all the classes and had passed every one of them and had fulfilled all requirements. Only to be denied a degree after all. The intolerance against Christians and Christianity by the left just keeps growing, especially in colleges and universities where liberals dominate and can act on their own prejudices. While atheists were never persecuted in the US for not having any religious views -thanks to the tolerance of Christians in the first place -they have shown themselves to be the MOST viciously intolerant towards Christians and Christianity in return -and as we see here, get a real thrill and applaud the open persecution and discrimination against a Christian by a school that essentially defrauded this woman and stole her money.

Oh yeah, atheist liberals are people we can all count on to be first in line vigorously defending OUR rights, aren't they? ROFL

If this is the official policy of this school, then they had a LEGAL OBLIGATION to make sure students were aware the school had no tolerance for their religious views, would make no concessions for their religious views, would insist even after a student graduated they could never allow their religious views to guide their professional life - and would punish any religious student by stealing their money, passing them in all their classes -and then denying them what they had already earned.

This is reminiscent of Canadian medical schools refusing to graduate doctors unless they PERSONALLY performed abortions while in medical school -regardless of whatever they intended to specialize in once they graduated. As a means of making sure even doctors who believed it to be murder, could be pressured to commit murder, violate their conscience - or risk everything. It is a CRIME to try and force people to violate their conscience. And it is NO coincidence that the ONLY time liberals believe that is when it comes to war. NEVER for any other issue -and instead applaud forcing people to violate their conscience or watch their lives destroyed when it involves any other issue.

 

[Samson]

You do realize there is are several conflicting schools of thought about how to best counsel homosexuals, depending on the reasons a homosexual might seek counseling in the first place, right? .

Like what, for example?

 

[Ravi]

yada yada yada

Your post has nothing to do with the facts of the case. Not even remotely.

Piss off.

 

[ConHog]

Who said the counseling was even related to sexuality at all...???


She apparently refused the clients outright merely because they were gay. That means her bigotry, which she rationalized as her Christianity, was an obstacle to meeting the school's counseling program requirements.

Regardless of WHO she is assigned to counsel, the issue here was not HOW she would counsel them, only WHETHER she would counsel them.

Obviously, the school teaches Their Grad students to question clients about their sexual preference. Otherwise, it wouldn't be an issue.

Valarie, this twit has me on ignore because I made him cry. Tell him that the sexual orientation was discovered because it was in the patient's file...not that the school or anyone else asked people their orientation.

Why was it in his file if no one asked? I doubt he just piped up "hey I'm queer by the way". So that invalidates your "no one asked him theory."

 

[mal]

yada yada yada

Your post has nothing to do with the facts of the case. Not even remotely.

Piss off.

For a Troll, yer a REAL Asshole...

Try this one:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2561470-post188.html



peace...

 

[Samson]

yada yada yada

Your post has nothing to do with the facts of the case. Not even remotely.

Piss off.

For a Troll, yer a REAL Asshole...

Try this one:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2561470-post188.html



peace...

Ravi cannot accept the fact that queers have issues that are unique to queers.

 

[Yurt]

hey valerie.....here is the hearing and guess what....there was talk about the remediation as alleged:

in the informal review, basically, this… you kind of ag…. the three of you agreed that there was
2! no remediation plan that was feasible.
3! CALLAWAY: Mmm hmm.
4! DUGGER: That’s correct. The development of a remediation plan of course would, um,
5! be contingent on Ms. Ward’s recognition that she needed to make some changes. And, um, she
6! did not, um, express that, in fact expressed just the opposite. And, um, communicated an attempt
7! to maintain this belief system and those behaviors

http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews_impact/2009/04/EMUhearing_transcript.pdf

care to change your mind that they were not forcing her to alter her beliefs?

Nope, they were merely asking her to alter her behavior and belief system as it relates to the degree requirements, not alter her religious beliefs.

Other Christians managed to pass the program, just not THIS Christian.

so they want her to alter her behavior and her belief system, which she has because of her christian beliefs, but its not about her christian beliefs

 

[mal]

Your post has nothing to do with the facts of the case. Not even remotely.

Piss off.

For a Troll, yer a REAL Asshole...

Try this one:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/2561470-post188.html



peace...

Ravi cannot accept the fact that queers have issues that are unique to queers.

Of course she can... She's simply a Hired Asshole for this Board... There can be no other Conclusion.



peace...

 

[Yurt]

The dispute that led to the litigation started in 2009, when Ward was enrolled in the practicum in which she was to engage in actual counseling. Faced with an appointment with a client whose file indicated past discussion of a gay relationship, Ward asked to refer the candidate to another counselor rather than engage in any counseling that could "affirm the client's homosexual behavior." Since this was two hours before the appointment, the supervising counselor canceled the appointment, but set off disciplinary hearings that eventually led to Ward being kicked out of the program.

She looked in the file, saw teh gay, freaked out and refused to do her coursework.

There is no reason on earth a school should not require students to do their course work.

she could have easily counseled someone else....and thus, have done the work....

next

 

[Ravi]

The dispute that led to the litigation started in 2009, when Ward was enrolled in the practicum in which she was to engage in actual counseling. Faced with an appointment with a client whose file indicated past discussion of a gay relationship, Ward asked to refer the candidate to another counselor rather than engage in any counseling that could "affirm the client's homosexual behavior." Since this was two hours before the appointment, the supervising counselor canceled the appointment, but set off disciplinary hearings that eventually led to Ward being kicked out of the program.

She looked in the file, saw teh gay, freaked out and refused to do her coursework.

There is no reason on earth a school should not require students to do their course work.

she could have easily counseled someone else....and thus, have done the work....

next

School guidance counselors are not free to pick and choose who they will counsel.

It's quite simple.

She should consider a different career path.

 

[mal]

She looked in the file, saw teh gay, freaked out and refused to do her coursework.

There is no reason on earth a school should not require students to do their course work.

she could have easily counseled someone else....and thus, have done the work....

next

School guidance counselors are not free to pick and choose who they will counsel.

It's quite simple.

She should consider a different career path.

Deviant Sexual Activities should be an Issue in Schools... Specifically when we are talking about Minors.



peace...

 

[Ravi]

she could have easily counseled someone else....and thus, have done the work....

next

School guidance counselors are not free to pick and choose who they will counsel.

It's quite simple.

She should consider a different career path.

Deviant Sexual Activities should be an Issue in Schools... Specifically when we are talking about Minors.



peace...

Still banned from schools, eh mal?

 

[Yurt]

She looked in the file, saw teh gay, freaked out and refused to do her coursework.

There is no reason on earth a school should not require students to do their course work.

she could have easily counseled someone else....and thus, have done the work....

next

School guidance counselors are not free to pick and choose who they will counsel.

It's quite simple.

She should consider a different career path.

she wasn't acting as a school guidence counseler at the time of the assignment

next