Personally Opposed to Homosexuality?... Judge OK's Expulsion from College...

[Ravi]

what you guys say if you knew the school allowed someone who had recently lost a family member to refer a patient to someone else because the recent loss made it impossible for the student to adequately counsel

And yet another ridiculous red herring.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The student may be homophobic based on religion, but a school that accepts state funds cannot use her religious belief to stop her. This sounds like agenda on behalf of the school and the faculty. She's going to win on appeal.

They used her refusal to even talk to a gay person to expel her. Are you going to claim that her religion requires her not to talk to gay people?

I think when her lawyers force the internal memoranda of the administrators and faculty into the open we are going to find out that it is far more than her not wanting to talk to somebody.

The judge saw all the available evidence and issued a summary judgment. Do you understand how rarely judges do that, and how much it actually says about the merit of her case?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

what you guys say if you knew the school allowed someone who had recently lost a family member to refer a patient to someone else because the recent loss made it impossible for the student to adequately counsel

I am pretty sure that counselors are required to get counseling to make sure that they do not allow personal problems to affect their professional work. That means I would say that the school is doing a good job in allowing a student to opt out of counseling people if they feel overwhelmed.

 

[Yurt]

what you guys say if you knew the school allowed someone who had recently lost a family member to refer a patient to someone else because the recent loss made it impossible for the student to adequately counsel

I am pretty sure that counselors are required to get counseling to make sure that they do not allow personal problems to affect their professional work. That means I would say that the school is doing a good job in allowing a student to opt out of counseling people if they feel overwhelmed.

and yet if a student is overwhelmed by having to counsel that homosexuaolity is moral, when that goes against their religious beliefs....that is ok with you?

or have i misunderstood your stance here?

 

[Sky Dancer]

what you guys say if you knew the school allowed someone who had recently lost a family member to refer a patient to someone else because the recent loss made it impossible for the student to adequately counsel

I am pretty sure that counselors are required to get counseling to make sure that they do not allow personal problems to affect their professional work. That means I would say that the school is doing a good job in allowing a student to opt out of counseling people if they feel overwhelmed.

I think homophobic counselors should let potential clients know that they cannot counsel gays and lesbians.

 

[Yurt]

They used her refusal to even talk to a gay person to expel her. Are you going to claim that her religion requires her not to talk to gay people?

I think when her lawyers force the internal memoranda of the administrators and faculty into the open we are going to find out that it is far more than her not wanting to talk to somebody.

The judge saw all the available evidence and issued a summary judgment. Do you understand how rarely judges do that, and how much it actually says about the merit of her case?

i don't think it goes to the merits of her case, rather, the strong opinion of the judge in this matter... what is interesting, is that this is a 48 page summary judgment...that is rare...but technically you are correct about the merits, i just voiced my opinion about the judge

the judge made good arguments and cited good case law, but i am not sure this will stand upon review, especially the summary judgment part...it is possible an appellate court will hear this de novo, unlikely...but will shall see

 

[Yurt]

what you guys say if you knew the school allowed someone who had recently lost a family member to refer a patient to someone else because the recent loss made it impossible for the student to adequately counsel

I am pretty sure that counselors are required to get counseling to make sure that they do not allow personal problems to affect their professional work. That means I would say that the school is doing a good job in allowing a student to opt out of counseling people if they feel overwhelmed.

I think homophobic counselors should let potential clients know that they cannot counsel gays and lesbians.

they are not homophobic and i'm sure she would

anyways, what do you think about teh school allowing others to refer there assignment to someone else when they just recently lost a loved one and the person wanting counseling was about bereavement?

 

[Sky Dancer]

I am pretty sure that counselors are required to get counseling to make sure that they do not allow personal problems to affect their professional work. That means I would say that the school is doing a good job in allowing a student to opt out of counseling people if they feel overwhelmed.

I think homophobic counselors should let potential clients know that they cannot counsel gays and lesbians.

they are not homophobic and i'm sure she would

anyways, what do you think about teh school allowing others to refer there assignment to someone else when they just recently lost a loved one and the person wanting counseling was about bereavement?

I think it's appropriate. It's within the guidelines of the counseling profession. If you cannot help the client you refer to someone else who can.

 

[Yurt]

I think homophobic counselors should let potential clients know that they cannot counsel gays and lesbians.

they are not homophobic and i'm sure she would

anyways, what do you think about teh school allowing others to refer there assignment to someone else when they just recently lost a loved one and the person wanting counseling was about bereavement?

I think it's appropriate. It's within the guidelines of the counseling profession. If you cannot help the client you refer to someone else who can.

fair enough....so what if your deeply held religious beliefs make it so you cannot help the client?

 

[Samson]

what you guys say if you knew the school allowed someone who had recently lost a family member to refer a patient to someone else because the recent loss made it impossible for the student to adequately counsel

I am pretty sure that counselors are required to get counseling to make sure that they do not allow personal problems to affect their professional work. That means I would say that the school is doing a good job in allowing a student to opt out of counseling people if they feel overwhelmed.

I think homophobic counselors should let potential clients know that they cannot counsel gays and lesbians.

Anyone that doesn't want to counsel gays and lesbians shouldn't counsel gays and lesbians.

Isn't this a win-win for counselors and queers?

 

[Samson]

I am pretty sure that counselors are required to get counseling to make sure that they do not allow personal problems to affect their professional work.

 

[Charles_Main]

Well..

U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program last year because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.

The university contended she violated school policy and the American Counseling Association code of ethics.

I mean what's next? Homophobes complaining that fellow homophobes who want to be doctors but don't want to perform on Homosexuals should be allowed?

So Doctors have to treat anyone at anytime for any reason now eh.

Nice Police state were living in

 

[frazzledgear]

You do realize there is are several conflicting schools of thought about how to best counsel homosexuals, depending on the reasons a homosexual might seek counseling in the first place, right? .

Like what, for example?

Do you think the many problems that may plague a homosexual are identical to those that may bother a heterosexual? Or are they dealing with additional issues that the heterosexual is not? How those additional problems may affect someone with dealing with their life while having a minority sexual orientation are not only numerous, but ones no heterosexual would even have to deal with at all. And that is not even touching on how a homosexual may feel about his own sexual orientation -unhappy, confused, angry, stoic, accepting, etc -or what kind of outcome they are hoping for. Human beings are complex individuals with thousands of unique issues and problems. And NO ONE is capable of addressing and counseling someone on each and every one of them and there is no one-size fits all cookie cutter way of addressing them either.

At least this woman openly admitted she would be unable to properly help homosexuals with their problems. There are Christian counselors who will only counsel homosexuals about becoming heterosexual -and she didn't even want to do that and would have been imposing her religious views on someone who had not come to her for religious advice. This is an area she already knew would be a bad match for her and at least she was mature enough to realize this WOULD be an issue for her instead of faking it and just going through the motions -which would have been a complete disservice to everyone involved. But ESPECIALLY to gays.


People have the right to tailor their professional life in accordance with their religious views and this woman was open about that. SO WHAT? If you were gay with serious partner problems or problems handing discrimination issues or whatever do you want someone who can address that in a completely neutral way in order to effectively counsel you - or someone who would be struggling to keep their religious beliefs from interfering with her ability to provide effective counsel but has been forced to fake it and hide that fact from you? Because that is the ONLY real choice here -either ENCOURAGE people with such religious beliefs to be open and honest about it so that the patient or client to seek out a better fit for themselves -or punish them for it and encourage them to DECEIVE others about their ability to effectively counsel particular problems and issues and feel forced into faking it. Which means shortchanging any gay person who was looking for help.


I never understand the people who want the honest punished for being honest -as if punishing the honesty somehow provides for the greater good. No it doesn't. Whatever you punish you will get less of -so you get less honesty. I don't want to force a religious person to go against their religious beliefs and I absolutely do NOT agree that simply having deeply held religious beliefs automatically means a whole host of possible careers are closed to them. But if a situation arises where someone thinks their religious beliefs are going to interfere with their ability to effectively assist me, I want them to feel free to TELL ME so I don't waste my time and can find someone better able to help me. What I absolutely do NOT want is for the state to have instilled such fear in them with the threat of the loss of their livelihood that they feel they have no choice but to hide from me the fact they already know they are not the best person to effectively help me. Wow, now how hard is that.


That sure doesn't mean she can't be an effective counselor for hundreds of other kinds of problems and issues though that do not involve sexual orientation -and the vast majority of issues people turn to a counselor about do not involve issues of sexual orientation. Just because she openly admits she would not be an effective counselor about this set of issues does not mean she wouldn't have been an outstanding fit dealing with all sorts of other issues. The school did a disservice to everyone involved here -but particularly to gays even while others think gays somehow benefited by this decision. They absolutely did not -because other people with sincerely held religious beliefs will have learned they must fake it and it will mean it is the gay who will be the one shorted of the best and most effective counsel as a result.

 

[Samson]

You do realize there is are several conflicting schools of thought about how to best counsel homosexuals, depending on the reasons a homosexual might seek counseling in the first place, right? .

Like what, for example?

Do you think the many problems that may plague a homosexual are identical to those that may bother a heterosexual?

Or are they dealing with additional issues that the heterosexual is not?

How those additional problems may affect someone with dealing with their life while having a minority sexual orientation are not only numerous, but ones no heterosexual would even have to deal with at all.

And that is not even touching on how a homosexual may feel about his own sexual orientation -unhappy, confused, angry, stoic, accepting, etc -or what kind of outcome they are hoping for.

Additional Problems?

I'm not arguing that queers might or might not have "additional problems."

I'm wondering, since you mentioned them, what they may be: can you give one example?

 

[Yurt]

Well..

U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program last year because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.

The university contended she violated school policy and the American Counseling Association code of ethics.

I mean what's next? Homophobes complaining that fellow homophobes who want to be doctors but don't want to perform on Homosexuals should be allowed?

So Doctors have to treat anyone at anytime for any reason now eh.

Nice Police state were living in

here is the crux of that and why i think this case might find its way to the scotus....

the doctor line of reasoning is: you are saving one's life.

which i agree, i don't care about your religious beliefs, if you can save someone's life who is bleeding on a table by stitching them up, then sticth them up....

psychological issues are far different...you're not on operating table, you're dealing with mental issues.....those are not (no pun intended) cut and dry as wounds to the body are. often, those wounds take like minds navigating through the canyons of our minds. i certainly wouldn't want someone who was diabolically opposed to my way of life giving me counseling on life.....

who would?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

what you guys say if you knew the school allowed someone who had recently lost a family member to refer a patient to someone else because the recent loss made it impossible for the student to adequately counsel

I am pretty sure that counselors are required to get counseling to make sure that they do not allow personal problems to affect their professional work. That means I would say that the school is doing a good job in allowing a student to opt out of counseling people if they feel overwhelmed.

and yet if a student is overwhelmed by having to counsel that homosexuaolity is moral, when that goes against their religious beliefs....that is ok with you?

or have i misunderstood your stance here?

She is not being required to counsel that homosexuality is moral, all she is being required to do is counsel someone who is a homosexual. In fact, counselors are specifically required to keep their personal views, whatever they are, out of their relationships with patients.

I came down on the other side of the issue with the other case that was posted because I believed that the student was being punished for her beliefs, and I will always reject that. This girl is being punished for her actions, or lack of them. It seems to me she has demonstrated a clear inability to counsel someone who needs it simply because she disagrees with that students lifestyle. Subtle difference, but still one that causes me to vote against her.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

what you guys say if you knew the school allowed someone who had recently lost a family member to refer a patient to someone else because the recent loss made it impossible for the student to adequately counsel

I am pretty sure that counselors are required to get counseling to make sure that they do not allow personal problems to affect their professional work. That means I would say that the school is doing a good job in allowing a student to opt out of counseling people if they feel overwhelmed.

I think homophobic counselors should let potential clients know that they cannot counsel gays and lesbians.

I agree, but they would still have to complete all assigned coursework first. She is failing in that regard.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I think when her lawyers force the internal memoranda of the administrators and faculty into the open we are going to find out that it is far more than her not wanting to talk to somebody.

The judge saw all the available evidence and issued a summary judgment. Do you understand how rarely judges do that, and how much it actually says about the merit of her case?

i don't think it goes to the merits of her case, rather, the strong opinion of the judge in this matter... what is interesting, is that this is a 48 page summary judgment...that is rare...but technically you are correct about the merits, i just voiced my opinion about the judge

the judge made good arguments and cited good case law, but i am not sure this will stand upon review, especially the summary judgment part...it is possible an appellate court will hear this de novo, unlikely...but will shall see

I haven't actually read the opinion myself, but you are correct that a 48 page order is unusual. I will take your word for it that the judge seems to be biased, but the way I read case law he is also right. This is a pretty simple issue of a student not meeting graduation requirements. Being a Christian myself I admire her principles, but she does not have a right to be exempted from course requirements.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Well..

U.S. District Judge George Caram Steeh dismissed Ward’s lawsuit against Eastern Michigan University. She was removed from the school’s counseling program last year because she refused to counsel homosexual clients.

The university contended she violated school policy and the American Counseling Association code of ethics.

I mean what's next? Homophobes complaining that fellow homophobes who want to be doctors but don't want to perform on Homosexuals should be allowed?

So Doctors have to treat anyone at anytime for any reason now eh.

Nice Police state were living in

They have to treat emergency patients, and students have to complete coursework.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Nope, QWB, she is being punished for her beliefs. The appeal will consider all matters, including the internal memoranda of the faculty and administration, and it will find in the student's favor. A tax-supported institution may never audit a student's religious beliefs as correct or incorrect.