Plenty of "Good Guys with Guns" But 6 Injured Anyway

[The2ndAmendment]

I don't believe I've ever seen such an HARD OP fail.

 

[Pogo]

I don't believe I've ever seen such an HARD OP fail.

You must not read much. I've got a whole thread full of 'em. Catch up.

 

[WinterBorn]

We are dealing with lives, any hope is worth it. Sorry you value lives so little. Many shooters have been stopped at reload.

Have they? I would like to see a list of those.

The VaTech shooter was not armed with high capacity magazines. He had 17 magazines loaded and with him. He reloaded repeatedly. And his was the deadliest school shooting in over 100 years.

And how many examples do you want? What would be a lot of examples? So far I've seen no examples of a defender needing a hi cap magazine.

Examples of the reload being the point at which the shooter was stopped?

How about as many as you have got?

 

[WinterBorn]

Here is an interesting article arguing in favor of high capacity magazines for civilian defense.

from:

"In stressful shooting situations, most studies show “hit rates” of less than 50 percent. A New York Times article from Dec. 2007 noted the hit rate for law enforcement in the city was 17.4 percent in 2005 and 28.3 percent in 2006. Los Angeles law enforcement shot placement was better than New York’s in 2006, with a 40 percent hit rate. Keep in mind these are law enforcement officers, who partake in regular training.

Civilians would be taking a more defensive posture, but the stress level is still there. In a situation where multiple attackers invade a home or attack someone on the street, it would be very reasonable to assume one defending himself or his family may run out of ammunition quickly if they were limited to a ten round magazine capacity. Certainly home invasions or attacks by multiple gun-toting criminals are rare, but mass shootings like Columbine and Tucson are even more rare.

Combine low hit rates in stressful situations with the fact one, two, three or even four rounds that hit the aggressor may not stop the threat, and you have a strong case to completely avoid a magazine capacity limit."

I have a video of a woman fending off 3 thugs with 4 shots.

You have a video with an unknown nuber of shots fired and none of the thugs were hit.

That is kinda the point. Stressful situations mean more misses.

And the hit ratio for the trained law enforcement officers in New York in 2005 would mean a person being attacked by three thugs, and being armed with a 10 round magazine, would probably end up dead.

 

[Brain357]

Here is an interesting article arguing in favor of high capacity magazines for civilian defense.

from:

"In stressful shooting situations, most studies show “hit rates” of less than 50 percent. A New York Times article from Dec. 2007 noted the hit rate for law enforcement in the city was 17.4 percent in 2005 and 28.3 percent in 2006. Los Angeles law enforcement shot placement was better than New York’s in 2006, with a 40 percent hit rate. Keep in mind these are law enforcement officers, who partake in regular training.

Civilians would be taking a more defensive posture, but the stress level is still there. In a situation where multiple attackers invade a home or attack someone on the street, it would be very reasonable to assume one defending himself or his family may run out of ammunition quickly if they were limited to a ten round magazine capacity. Certainly home invasions or attacks by multiple gun-toting criminals are rare, but mass shootings like Columbine and Tucson are even more rare.

Combine low hit rates in stressful situations with the fact one, two, three or even four rounds that hit the aggressor may not stop the threat, and you have a strong case to completely avoid a magazine capacity limit."

I have a video of a woman fending off 3 thugs with 4 shots.

You have a video with an unknown nuber of shots fired and none of the thugs were hit.

That is kinda the point. Stressful situations mean more misses.

And the hit ratio for the trained law enforcement officers in New York in 2005 would mean a person being attacked by three thugs, and being armed with a 10 round magazine, would probably end up dead.

The point is to defend yourself, not kill people. She defended herself very effectively.

 

[Brain357]

Have they? I would like to see a list of those.

The VaTech shooter was not armed with high capacity magazines. He had 17 magazines loaded and with him. He reloaded repeatedly. And his was the deadliest school shooting in over 100 years.

And how many examples do you want? What would be a lot of examples? So far I've seen no examples of a defender needing a hi cap magazine.

Examples of the reload being the point at which the shooter was stopped?

How about as many as you have got?

Well they aren't hard to find. Certainly much easier to find than people needing a hi cap magazine for defense. Those don't seem to exist. How many will you consider a lot?
Brendan O'Rourke, California School Shooting Suspect, Was Depressed About Job Loss

 

[WinterBorn]

I have a video of a woman fending off 3 thugs with 4 shots.

You have a video with an unknown nuber of shots fired and none of the thugs were hit.

That is kinda the point. Stressful situations mean more misses.

And the hit ratio for the trained law enforcement officers in New York in 2005 would mean a person being attacked by three thugs, and being armed with a 10 round magazine, would probably end up dead.

The point is to defend yourself, not kill people. She defended herself very effectively.

Yes she did. And it helped that the thugs were not particularly determined.

That is not always the case. Most of the time the criminals will run after the first shot. But not always.

 

[Brain357]

You have a video with an unknown nuber of shots fired and none of the thugs were hit.

That is kinda the point. Stressful situations mean more misses.

And the hit ratio for the trained law enforcement officers in New York in 2005 would mean a person being attacked by three thugs, and being armed with a 10 round magazine, would probably end up dead.

The point is to defend yourself, not kill people. She defended herself very effectively.

Yes she did. And it helped that the thugs were not particularly determined.

That is not always the case. Most of the time the criminals will run after the first shot. But not always.

You have any examples of a defender needing a hi cap magazine yet?

 

[WinterBorn]

And how many examples do you want? What would be a lot of examples? So far I've seen no examples of a defender needing a hi cap magazine.

Examples of the reload being the point at which the shooter was stopped?

How about as many as you have got?

Well they aren't hard to find. Certainly much easier to find than people needing a hi cap magazine for defense. Those don't seem to exist. How many will you consider a lot?
Brendan O'Rourke, California School Shooting Suspect, Was Depressed About Job Loss

So his gun jammed. It was not about magazine capacity. A bullet jammed in the gun.

Also, O'Rourke was using a .357 revolver. It was not exactly a high capacity weapon. So the reload was not a magazine, as we have been discussing. And the delay in reloading was about a jammed bullet.

Keep trying.

 

[WinterBorn]

The point is to defend yourself, not kill people. She defended herself very effectively.

Yes she did. And it helped that the thugs were not particularly determined.

That is not always the case. Most of the time the criminals will run after the first shot. But not always.

You have any examples of a defender needing a hi cap magazine yet?

No. But then, I have not searched for any examples. As I said, you are the one making the claim that high capacity magazines are never used for defense.

But I did find a link showing that criminals fire an average of 4 rounds in a murder. So unless you will be reducing legal magazine capacities to under 4 rounds, it is a waste of time.

 

[Brain357]

Examples of the reload being the point at which the shooter was stopped?

How about as many as you have got?

Well they aren't hard to find. Certainly much easier to find than people needing a hi cap magazine for defense. Those don't seem to exist. How many will you consider a lot?
Brendan O'Rourke, California School Shooting Suspect, Was Depressed About Job Loss

So his gun jammed. It was not about magazine capacity. A bullet jammed in the gun.

Also, O'Rourke was using a .357 revolver. It was not exactly a high capacity weapon. So the reload was not a magazine, as we have been discussing. And the delay in reloading was about a jammed bullet.

Keep trying.

You didn't answer my question. I bet you won't say how many is a lot because no matter how many I post you'll say it's not enough.

This example proves mistakes can save lives. More reloading equals higher chance of mistakes.

Here is another:
Thurston High School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Brain357]

Yes she did. And it helped that the thugs were not particularly determined.

That is not always the case. Most of the time the criminals will run after the first shot. But not always.

You have any examples of a defender needing a hi cap magazine yet?

No. But then, I have not searched for any examples. As I said, you are the one making the claim that high capacity magazines are never used for defense.

But I did find a link showing that criminals fire an average of 4 rounds in a murder. So unless you will be reducing legal magazine capacities to under 4 rounds, it is a waste of time.

You can look at a long list of mass shooting that involve more than 4 rounds.

 

[bripat9643]

We are dealing with lives, any hope is worth it. Sorry you value lives so little. Many shooters have been stopped at reload.

Have they? I would like to see a list of those.

The VaTech shooter was not armed with high capacity magazines. He had 17 magazines loaded and with him. He reloaded repeatedly. And his was the deadliest school shooting in over 100 years.

And how many examples do you want? What would be a lot of examples? So far I've seen no examples of a defender needing a hi cap magazine.

Here ya go:

Lancaster Resident Says He Shot & Killed Teen Intruder « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

 

[WinterBorn]

Well they aren't hard to find. Certainly much easier to find than people needing a hi cap magazine for defense. Those don't seem to exist. How many will you consider a lot?
Brendan O'Rourke, California School Shooting Suspect, Was Depressed About Job Loss

So his gun jammed. It was not about magazine capacity. A bullet jammed in the gun.

Also, O'Rourke was using a .357 revolver. It was not exactly a high capacity weapon. So the reload was not a magazine, as we have been discussing. And the delay in reloading was about a jammed bullet.

Keep trying.

You didn't answer my question. I bet you won't say how many is a lot because no matter how many I post you'll say it's not enough.

This example proves mistakes can save lives. More reloading equals higher chance of mistakes.

Here is another:
Thurston High School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He fired 50 rounds and killed 2 people? lol Ok, so he had a Ruger .22 rifle with a large magazine. I doubt those would be included in a future ban. They weren't banned in the '94 legislation.

 

[Brain357]

Have they? I would like to see a list of those.

The VaTech shooter was not armed with high capacity magazines. He had 17 magazines loaded and with him. He reloaded repeatedly. And his was the deadliest school shooting in over 100 years.

And how many examples do you want? What would be a lot of examples? So far I've seen no examples of a defender needing a hi cap magazine.

Here ya go:

Lancaster Resident Says He Shot & Killed Teen Intruder « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

Witnesses say 4-5 shots fired:
Intruder shot dead by Lancaster homeowner | wfaa.com Dallas - Fort Worth

No mention of intruder even being armed.

 

[Brain357]

So his gun jammed. It was not about magazine capacity. A bullet jammed in the gun.

Also, O'Rourke was using a .357 revolver. It was not exactly a high capacity weapon. So the reload was not a magazine, as we have been discussing. And the delay in reloading was about a jammed bullet.

Keep trying.

You didn't answer my question. I bet you won't say how many is a lot because no matter how many I post you'll say it's not enough.

This example proves mistakes can save lives. More reloading equals higher chance of mistakes.

Here is another:
Thurston High School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He fired 50 rounds and killed 2 people? lol Ok, so he had a Ruger .22 rifle with a large magazine. I doubt those would be included in a future ban. They weren't banned in the '94 legislation.

Ah only two people. You have no value of life? The point of the example is that he was stopped while reloading. You prefer more people are killed before he is stopped?

Here is another:
Long Island Railroad Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[WinterBorn]

Have they? I would like to see a list of those.

The VaTech shooter was not armed with high capacity magazines. He had 17 magazines loaded and with him. He reloaded repeatedly. And his was the deadliest school shooting in over 100 years.

And how many examples do you want? What would be a lot of examples? So far I've seen no examples of a defender needing a hi cap magazine.

Here ya go:

Lancaster Resident Says He Shot & Killed Teen Intruder « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

Ok, there you have an example of the defensive use of more than 10 rounds.

 

[Brain357]

And how many examples do you want? What would be a lot of examples? So far I've seen no examples of a defender needing a hi cap magazine.

Here ya go:

Lancaster Resident Says He Shot & Killed Teen Intruder « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

Ok, there you have an example of the defensive use of more than 10 rounds.

I haven't said using more than 10 rounds, I have said needing more than 10 rounds. No mention of intruder even being armed and you think he needed 15 shots? If that were the case he needs to go to the range. But regardless, as I posted in my link, witnesses say 4-5 shots.

 

[WinterBorn]

You didn't answer my question. I bet you won't say how many is a lot because no matter how many I post you'll say it's not enough.

This example proves mistakes can save lives. More reloading equals higher chance of mistakes.

Here is another:
Thurston High School - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

He fired 50 rounds and killed 2 people? lol Ok, so he had a Ruger .22 rifle with a large magazine. I doubt those would be included in a future ban. They weren't banned in the '94 legislation.

Ah only two people. You have no value of life? The point of the example is that he was stopped while reloading. You prefer more people are killed before he is stopped?

Here is another:
Long Island Railroad Massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You have shown 2 valid examples of a shooter being subdued when he was reloading. And apparently they were the only 2 over a period of 20 years.

And you showed one example of more than 10 rounds being used to defend someone's home.

 

[WinterBorn]

Here ya go:

Lancaster Resident Says He Shot & Killed Teen Intruder « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth

Ok, there you have an example of the defensive use of more than 10 rounds.

I haven't said using more than 10 rounds, I have said needing more than 10 rounds. No mention of intruder even being armed and you think he needed 15 shots? If that were the case he needs to go to the range. But regardless, as I posted in my link, witnesses say 4-5 shots.

And the shooter said 15. Unfortunately that particular event had very little press, so I could not find how many times the intruder was shot.

If someone breaks into someone's home and gets killed I have little sympathy for them.