[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[Gadawg73]

Ok, how do you propose we encourage the poor to quit there job of collecting welfare? Why would they quit collecting 40-90k a year for doing absolutely nothing for a minimum wage earning 20k a year? Why we the poor be so stupid so as to volunteer themselves to work for a living when others are willing to pay them to vote for their welfare every 24months?

40Million Americans on welfare. The only way to get them off welfare will be to fire them from the job of collecting welfare. These folks are used to living in free apartment, having a free cell phone, free food, free utilities... really why would anyone have an incentive to quit that?

The solution is a bitter pill. Take it away. You want food, work for it. You want shelter and a cell phone.. work for it.

It's really not that complex.

What you really have to ask is why are the Democrats, who used to be the KKK by the way, using a process of keeping the poor poor by forcing them to no work while accepting welfare? Ask yourself what party benefits from a population of poor welfare recipients. It's really not that complex.

Read Rules for Radicals. They are not even hiding what they are doing. The press are complicit in this vile act of subjugation of an entire class of society. Slave voters for the purpose of... making democrat fat cats rich.

I guess business should have been more careful about giving away millions of jobs to cheap foreign labor recruited here or sent there. Perhaps investing in American productivity would have been better. Of course if Bush and co hadn't created the Great Recession, that would have been better too.

Bad things happen when the country is being led by the likes of Rush Limbaugh.

The problem you have is the "millions" of jobs you claim have gone overseas is false.

Millions of jobs have gone overseas.
And they should have as those jobs a 5th grader that has an adult body can perform them.
Gone are the days when a semi illiterate high school grad can assure himself with a manufacturing job that pays a middle class income with benefits.
Millions of jobs went overseas. They are long gone and that is okay as the next wave is the information age and there are plenty of job vacancies in IT, HVAC, auto repair, computer running and operating systems in all forms of machinery and the list goes on.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I guess business should have been more careful about giving away millions of jobs to cheap foreign labor recruited here or sent there. Perhaps investing in American productivity would have been better. Of course if Bush and co hadn't created the Great Recession, that would have been better too.

Bad things happen when the country is being led by the likes of Rush Limbaugh.

The problem you have is the "millions" of jobs you claim have gone overseas is false.

Millions of jobs have gone overseas.
And they should have as those jobs a 5th grader that has an adult body can perform them.
Gone are the days when a semi illiterate high school grad can assure himself with a manufacturing job that pays a middle class income with benefits.
Millions of jobs went overseas. They are long gone and that is okay as the next wave is the information age and there are plenty of job vacancies in IT, HVAC, auto repair, computer running and operating systems in all forms of machinery and the list goes on.

Assuming the number in the millions has some truth to it( someone will have to prove it to convince me), these are jobs that would have been next t impossible to fill and that most of them would be taken by unskilled people or illegal immigrants.

 

[PMZ]

I live in TX we are mostly free here. I only hate the portions of this country that is voting to redistribute my income at my families expense.

Then why don't you move to an inhabitant island? You'd be absolutely free and nobody would dream redistributing your income -- which, I'm sure, will be quite high. With nobody standing in your way, i'm sure you will be making tons of money.

He may love Texas, want to stay there, and try to change the laws so anti American liberals can't steal his money to waste on failed and ever growing liberal welfare programs.

Here's the problem. We are a democracy and everyone who's been paying attention knows that we simply can't afford conservatism. It will be generations before we get the last onslaught paid off.

If he's waiting for the electorate to vote conservatism back in, he's got one long wait.

 

[PMZ]

Then why don't you move to an inhabitant island? You'd be absolutely free and nobody would dream redistributing your income -- which, I'm sure, will be quite high. With nobody standing in your way, i'm sure you will be making tons of money.

He may love Texas, want to stay there, and try to change the laws so anti American liberals can't steal his money to waste on failed and ever growing liberal welfare programs.

Here's the problem. We are a democracy and everyone who's been paying attention knows that we simply can't afford conservatism. It will be generations before we get the last onslaught paid off.

If he's waiting for the electorate to vote conservatism back in, he's got one long wait.

Describe for us what competition would look like in the military market.

Competitive armies like the warlords of Afghanistan?

Soldiers, payed a bounty for enemy deaths, less friendly fire deaths, caused?

Soldiers rewarded for not raping their comrade?

Also, "Competition is subverted through coercion" and advertising.

Straw man, huh?

I accept your surrender.

One of the reasons that I have so little respect for conservatives is that I've never met one who could defend what you all are required to believe. I guess you won't be the one to break that streak.

 

[PMZ]

You mean Amerika don't you?

No I mean the country that you love to hate.

I live in TX we are mostly free here. I only hate the portions of this country that is voting to redistribute my income at my families expense.

Free is defined by our Constitution and is the same in all states.

In what way are you more free in Texas than people in all states are?

 

[PMZ]

Then why don't you move to an inhabitant island? You'd be absolutely free and nobody would dream redistributing your income -- which, I'm sure, will be quite high. With nobody standing in your way, i'm sure you will be making tons of money.

He may love Texas, want to stay there, and try to change the laws so anti American liberals can't steal his money to waste on failed and ever growing liberal welfare programs.

Bingo. These welfare programs are worse than waste they are promoting poverty, they are promoting a permanent state of dependence they are destroying this country one dependent family at a time. 40+million Americans on welfare. There can be no denying that our welfare system is good at only one thing, creating poverty.

Another person who knows people who choose poverty. I've never met a one.

I guess that business shouldn't have given away all of those jobs so that executives could pocket big bonuses.

Think how good things were under Clinton when there was a job for everyone.

 

[PMZ]

He may love Texas, want to stay there, and try to change the laws so anti American liberals can't steal his money to waste on failed and ever growing liberal welfare programs.

Bingo. These welfare programs are worse than waste they are promoting poverty, they are promoting a permanent state of dependence they are destroying this country one dependent family at a time. 40+million Americans on welfare. There can be no denying that our welfare system is good at only one thing, creating poverty.

yes Clinton and Newt eliminated "welfare as we know it" by simply changing it to workfare. 40% of recipients decided they didn't need it badly enough to work for it.

Yet this lesson is lost on today's liberals. They simply lack the IQ to understand it.

Clearly a sign of high IQ is sitting in the Lazy Boy getting told what to think by Rush and Rupert and their friends.

 

[PMZ]

547 posts and not one lib has answered the question "what is a "fair share" of the tax burden..."....Amazing but not in the least unexpected.

I answered many posts ago. Capitalism is well understood to distribute wealth up. In the absence of regulation and progressive taxation it leads always to unstable societies which hurt everyone. Those that benefit from capitalism love the benefit but hope that the cost, unstable society, won't happen until after they're dead.

So, the degree of progressiveness on taxes is whatever it takes to stabilize society. As we are now at nearly the most unequal distribution of wealth in the world, we know that continuing what we're doing will lead to disasterous results.

But, wealthy people, like all businesses march to one drummer. Make more money regardless of the cost to others. That is unsustainable without the compensation of regulation and progressive taxation.

So what's your fair share number?

Boy, you are slow. How many times do I have to answer?

Everyone's fair share is what it takes to maintain a successful country. It's a free market thing. Anyone who doesn't like their share is free to move out. The way you guys talk there must be at least a hundred other countries in the world superior to ours.

 

[PMZ]

547 posts and not one lib has answered the question "what is a "fair share" of the tax burden..."....Amazing but not in the least unexpected.

I answered many posts ago. Capitalism is well understood to distribute wealth up. In the absence of regulation and progressive taxation it leads always to unstable societies which hurt everyone. Those that benefit from capitalism love the benefit but hope that the cost, unstable society, won't happen until after they're dead.

So, the degree of progressiveness on taxes is whatever it takes to stabilize society. As we are now at nearly the most unequal distribution of wealth in the world, we know that continuing what we're doing will lead to disasterous results.

But, wealthy people, like all businesses march to one drummer. Make more money regardless of the cost to others. That is unsustainable without the compensation of regulation and progressive taxation.

The part you conveniently leave out is there already IS plenty of government regulation.

Crooks keep thinking of new ways to screw the public. The public keeps thinking of things that they won't stand for anymore.

 

[PMZ]

Ok, how do you propose we encourage the poor to quit there job of collecting welfare? Why would they quit collecting 40-90k a year for doing absolutely nothing for a minimum wage earning 20k a year? Why we the poor be so stupid so as to volunteer themselves to work for a living when others are willing to pay them to vote for their welfare every 24months?

40Million Americans on welfare. The only way to get them off welfare will be to fire them from the job of collecting welfare. These folks are used to living in free apartment, having a free cell phone, free food, free utilities... really why would anyone have an incentive to quit that?

The solution is a bitter pill. Take it away. You want food, work for it. You want shelter and a cell phone.. work for it.

It's really not that complex.

What you really have to ask is why are the Democrats, who used to be the KKK by the way, using a process of keeping the poor poor by forcing them to no work while accepting welfare? Ask yourself what party benefits from a population of poor welfare recipients. It's really not that complex.

Read Rules for Radicals. They are not even hiding what they are doing. The press are complicit in this vile act of subjugation of an entire class of society. Slave voters for the purpose of... making democrat fat cats rich.

I guess business should have been more careful about giving away millions of jobs to cheap foreign labor recruited here or sent there. Perhaps investing in American productivity would have been better. Of course if Bush and co hadn't created the Great Recession, that would have been better too.

Bad things happen when the country is being led by the likes of Rush Limbaugh.

The problem you have is the "millions" of jobs you claim have gone overseas is false.

That's why I never claimed it. Many of our jobs were given to cheap foreign labor recruited to here.

 

[PMZ]

Bingo. These welfare programs are worse than waste they are promoting poverty, they are promoting a permanent state of dependence they are destroying this country one dependent family at a time.

I'm sorry you feel that way. But since you do, moving to an inhabited island might be your only choice. Americans won't accept that while they all work hard to create new wealth, most of it goes to the top 1%.

dear, if they don't want Gates and Jobs to have so much wealth they would not buy their products!! You want them to buy from Gates and Jobs and then steal the money back??

Why then can't Jobs and Gates sell you the product and then steal it back so they have more for charity??

That's nearly the stupidest thing that I've ever heard. The only reason that Jobs and Gates are wealthy is because gamblers betting on stock prices against each other made them so. The small contribution that the two of them made to their companies was mostly from being in the right place at the right time. Not a whole lot different than lottery winners.

 

[PMZ]

I live in TX we are mostly free here. I only hate the portions of this country that is voting to redistribute my income at my families expense.

Then why don't you move to an inhabitant island? You'd be absolutely free and nobody would dream redistributing your income -- which, I'm sure, will be quite high. With nobody standing in your way, i'm sure you will be making tons of money.

You just admitted you believe in taxation for redistribution. Which is the same thing as using taxation as a means to punish.
Nice.

Don't you believe in capitalism for wealth redistribution? Didn't you believe in the Bush wealth redistribution tax cuts for the wealthy? The whole Bush administration was one endless river of wealth, redirected from the creators of wealth, workers, to those who don't have to work, the already wealthy.

 

[PMZ]

I guess business should have been more careful about giving away millions of jobs to cheap foreign labor recruited here or sent there. Perhaps investing in American productivity would have been better. Of course if Bush and co hadn't created the Great Recession, that would have been better too.

Bad things happen when the country is being led by the likes of Rush Limbaugh.

The problem you have is the "millions" of jobs you claim have gone overseas is false.

Millions of jobs have gone overseas.
And they should have as those jobs a 5th grader that has an adult body can perform them.
Gone are the days when a semi illiterate high school grad can assure himself with a manufacturing job that pays a middle class income with benefits.
Millions of jobs went overseas. They are long gone and that is okay as the next wave is the information age and there are plenty of job vacancies in IT, HVAC, auto repair, computer running and operating systems in all forms of machinery and the list goes on.

America's success has traditionally come from companies investing in productivity so that skilled workers could live comfortable lives by out producing labor that was merely cheap. That ended, not because something better came along, but because the stock gamblers on Wall St rewarded executives lavishly for cutting payroll. Those bright business leaders didn't give a second thought to the undeniable fact that every worker cut was also a customer.

The Great Recession was caused by nothing more than the selling of America by the wealthy, for the wealthy.

 

[PMZ]

Clearly Lazy Boy conservatives have so little respect for Americans that they believe that there are 40,000,000 people here who could work, but choose poverty instead. That business has a job for every one who wants one, but those jobs are unfilled because living in poverty is so attractive.

If I thought that about my country, I'd have to leave it. I have too much pride to stay in a country like that.

But is anybody leaving? Practically none. Why is that? Why do the beneficiaries of America's success believe that they are the exceptions?

Good question!

 

[thereisnospoon]

Then why don't you move to an inhabitant island? You'd be absolutely free and nobody would dream redistributing your income -- which, I'm sure, will be quite high. With nobody standing in your way, i'm sure you will be making tons of money.

He may love Texas, want to stay there, and try to change the laws so anti American liberals can't steal his money to waste on failed and ever growing liberal welfare programs.

Here's the problem. We are a democracy and everyone who's been paying attention knows that we simply can't afford conservatism. It will be generations before we get the last onslaught paid off.

If he's waiting for the electorate to vote conservatism back in, he's got one long wait.

The United States is NOT a democracy. It is a Representative Republic. Huge difference.
As for your disparaging and untrue remarks regarding conservatism, well....

 

[thereisnospoon]

The problem you have is the "millions" of jobs you claim have gone overseas is false.

Millions of jobs have gone overseas.
And they should have as those jobs a 5th grader that has an adult body can perform them.
Gone are the days when a semi illiterate high school grad can assure himself with a manufacturing job that pays a middle class income with benefits.
Millions of jobs went overseas. They are long gone and that is okay as the next wave is the information age and there are plenty of job vacancies in IT, HVAC, auto repair, computer running and operating systems in all forms of machinery and the list goes on.

America's success has traditionally come from companies investing in productivity so that skilled workers could live comfortable lives by out producing labor that was merely cheap. That ended, not because something better came along, but because the stock gamblers on Wall St rewarded executives lavishly for cutting payroll. Those bright business leaders didn't give a second thought to the undeniable fact that every worker cut was also a customer.

The Great Recession was caused by nothing more than the selling of America by the wealthy, for the wealthy.

Jesus...Where is that ....oh wait. Here it is

 

[ilia25]

He may love Texas, want to stay there, and try to change the laws so anti American liberals can't steal his money to waste on failed and ever growing liberal welfare programs.

Here's the problem. We are a democracy and everyone who's been paying attention knows that we simply can't afford conservatism. It will be generations before we get the last onslaught paid off.

If he's waiting for the electorate to vote conservatism back in, he's got one long wait.

The United States is NOT a democracy. It is a Representative Republic. Huge difference.

Representative Republic is a form of democracy. That's why the right will ultimately lose -- because you can only fool people to vote against their own interest only for so long.

You know that and that's why you are so afraid of democracy.

 

[ilia25]

People who have low wage jobs do so because they lack the skills so that they may find a higher paying job.

It's like saying that in USSR people were poor because they lacked skills to become members of Politburo.

It's a simple concept: the way the free-market economy distributes incomes is changing over time. 40 years ago the income was distributed more equally because many people with high-school diploma could get a middle-class paying job in manufacturing. Not anymore -- those jobs are lost to automation. Those who had left manufacturing have to work low-paying jobs in service sector.

And it is going to get worse. As computers get smarter, the free market sends an ever bigger share of new wealth to the top 1%. We will end up with a few thousands super-rich families surrounded by millions stuck with less real incomes than their parents were making. Unless we the people do something about it.

WHAT?!! Those people had no freedoms. Their destiny was determined by the central planers from birth.

You have no idea what are you talking about. The USSR was many thing, but aristocracy it was not. Soviet elite often came from very humble beginnings, owing their career success to their personal skills. Gorbachev, for example, was born into a farmer family, his grandfathers at one point were arrested on false charges and some of his close relatives died in a famine.

There is no such thing as income distribution.

Every right-wing nut is crazy in its own way.

A business must keep with the times in order to succeed.

And that leads to greater income inequality.

I asked you earlier in this thread "who is we?" and what is that "something" we must do about it?
You've evaded answering those questions.

You just can't read. "We" is as in "we the people", and we have to do something about rising income inequality. And we will.

 

[RKMBrown]

Then why don't you move to an inhabitant island? You'd be absolutely free and nobody would dream redistributing your income -- which, I'm sure, will be quite high. With nobody standing in your way, i'm sure you will be making tons of money.

You just admitted you believe in taxation for redistribution. Which is the same thing as using taxation as a means to punish.
Nice.

Don't you believe in capitalism for wealth redistribution? Didn't you believe in the Bush wealth redistribution tax cuts for the wealthy? The whole Bush administration was one endless river of wealth, redirected from the creators of wealth, workers, to those who don't have to work, the already wealthy.

The Bush tax cuts provided 100%+ tax cuts to the poor, 30-50% tax cuts to the middle class, 15% to the upper middle class, and 5-10% tax cuts to the rich.

I'm gonna guess you're one of "those" libs that are math challenged.

 

[RKMBrown]

He may love Texas, want to stay there, and try to change the laws so anti American liberals can't steal his money to waste on failed and ever growing liberal welfare programs.

Bingo. These welfare programs are worse than waste they are promoting poverty, they are promoting a permanent state of dependence they are destroying this country one dependent family at a time. 40+million Americans on welfare. There can be no denying that our welfare system is good at only one thing, creating poverty.

Another person who knows people who choose poverty. I've never met a one.

I guess that business shouldn't have given away all of those jobs so that executives could pocket big bonuses.

Think how good things were under Clinton when there was a job for everyone.

America created the dot com boom, then bust. Not Clinton.