[POLL] - Liberals, how much is a "fair share?" - Taxes

[PMZ]

That number is so cooked. And everyone should pay taxes, it's the difference between being a citizen who feels invested in our country and a leach who lives off it. And anyone can acquire wealth, you spend less than you earn. People need to take some personal responsibility. Not just run around saying it's not fair, government needs to redistribute money to them when they don't make good choices.

There is a solution. Business growth. No pay for executives without evidence that their performance caused the US economy to grow.

Yes comrade, the proletariat is being oppressed by the bourgeoisie. Our politician comrades, who only care about us and hate that they must live in ostentatious opulence, need to decide which businesses are primarily serving the interest of the State, which means they are serving the people, and remove the ones who do not. Only through complete subjugation to a State with ubiquitous power can we be free.

You're a Marxist. That's fine, just be honest about it.

I am in no way a Marxist. I'm the world's biggest fan of democracy. But I know that Fox propaganda has given you scapegoats and names to call them and you do what you're told to.

 

[PMZ]

Think of how different this country would be if business leaders were accountable to we, the people, as government leaders are.

Businesses are accountable to their customers and stock holders. if you are not a customer or stock holder then that business owes you nothing and you have no say in how they operate.

I'm beginning to see the problem though. PMZ and others of his ilk--not that I believe for a mnute he is posting anything he actually believes here because he contradicts hmself too much--but they honestly believe the communist view that all business and all resources belong to the people. They don't really believe in private ownership or unalienable rights related to property at all.

So the bottom line for a communist is that a 'fair share' is 100%. The government should have the right to take it all and then redistribute it according to what people need at the time. And the corporation will work to support the people rather than for its own profits. And butterflies will emerge from unicorn butts, blue birds will sing, and all trouble and want will disappear from the face of the Earth.

Nice Fox recital. You're nothing if not a reliable minion.

I believe that people should support their country or find one they can. What you fall for every day went out with caves and clubs, hunting and gathering.

I don't think that there's a country left on earth for you but I do know a tribe of lowland gorillas that might take you if you work on your education some.

 

[Spiderman]

Think of how different this country would be if business leaders were accountable to we, the people, as government leaders are.

Businesses are accountable to their customers and stock holders. if you are not a customer or stock holder then that business owes you nothing and you have no say in how they operate.

Only if you are a country hating conservative. And that's why they fail so badly at governance.

That's crap and can you even try to think beyond meaningless labels?
My business doesn't owe you anything. All I have to do is live up to my responsibilities for my tenants. If you are not one of my tenants I don't owe you shit and neither does any other company that you have nothing to do with.

Shareholders are people who gamble on stock prices. They really don't care or know anything about the company, or benefit it beyond their sell target.

Shows how much you know about investing. The most successful investors buy and hold.

Costumers can only choose to buy your product or from your competition or do without. They are the easiest people to fool with today's advertising.

Only? That choice is the ultimate power. And there are many things being sold today that people can do without. It's that they don't want to do without that makes most people live beyond their means and whose fault is that?

So CEOs today are really not accountable to anyone except their buddies on the board and that's a big reason why business has failed us so badly lately.

They are accountable to the board and the shareholders just like they always have been. Nothing's changed there. No business is accountable to you personally unless you have a stake in it.

I'm willing to bet you don't have a stake in every business in the country or even a couple for that matter.

 

[PMZ]

One of the many truths that Fox obscures is that we don't now have a government problem here, we have a business problem.

All of the problems argued here would be alleviated if business would return to growing, and provide a well paying job for every worker.

The fact that conservatives made shrink to success fashionable is the problem.

Business leaders should be rewarded for one thing. Growth of the economy. Their present performance in that measure today, on average, wouldn't earn them minimum wage

Society at large has no business rewarding or not rewarding businesses. You, as a third party, are not supposed to get a vote in agreed upon transactions between two parties.

And your shrink to success idea is laughable. There is no tenent of conservatism that says the best way to have a successful business is to cut out all unncessary costs.

As a big government type it's interesting that you mention the importance of a business growing seeing as how the ever expansion of government from its taxes to its regulations serve as direct impediments to that growth.

I'm sick of business excusing their failure by putting on the 'we can't be successful without the help of government' act, a typical conservative whine. And your 'There is no tenent of conservatism that says the best way to have a successful business is to cut out all unncessary costs' is laughable.

The reason that you can't fool me with your bullshit is that I've had too much experience with business. I've worked with intelligent CEOs with the ability to create growth and a recognition of the synergy between their company and the community in which they are permitted to operate. People who respect employees and customers and know where those people live and raise their families. People who know that innovative products and processes are what makes companies grow and they come from treating people like humans rather than interchangeable parts.

The abject failure of conservatism is their inability to see beyond today and focus on yesterday. That makes them parasitic to success and harbingers of failure.

 

[kaz]

There is a solution. Business growth. No pay for executives without evidence that their performance caused the US economy to grow.

Yes comrade, the proletariat is being oppressed by the bourgeoisie. Our politician comrades, who only care about us and hate that they must live in ostentatious opulence, need to decide which businesses are primarily serving the interest of the State, which means they are serving the people, and remove the ones who do not. Only through complete subjugation to a State with ubiquitous power can we be free.

You're a Marxist. That's fine, just be honest about it.

I am in no way a Marxist. I'm the world's biggest fan of democracy. But I know that Fox propaganda has given you scapegoats and names to call them and you do what you're told to.

Why does the word "Marxist" bother you, comrade? It's accurate, so what's the issue with it?

 

[PMZ]

Businesses are accountable to their customers and stock holders. if you are not a customer or stock holder then that business owes you nothing and you have no say in how they operate.

Only if you are a country hating conservative. And that's why they fail so badly at governance.

That's crap and can you even try to think beyond meaningless labels?
My business doesn't owe you anything. All I have to do is live up to my responsibilities for my tenants. If you are not one of my tenants I don't owe you shit and neither does any other company that you have nothing to do with.



Shows how much you know about investing. The most successful investors buy and hold.

Costumers can only choose to buy your product or from your competition or do without. They are the easiest people to fool with today's advertising.

Only? That choice is the ultimate power. And there are many things being sold today that people can do without. It's that they don't want to do without that makes most people live beyond their means and whose fault is that?

So CEOs today are really not accountable to anyone except their buddies on the board and that's a big reason why business has failed us so badly lately.

They are accountable to the board and the shareholders just like they always have been. Nothing's changed there. No business is accountable to you personally unless you have a stake in it.

I'm willing to bet you don't have a stake in every business in the country or even a couple for that matter.

I know success. It's a great teacher for those who learn. Then there are those that think that the world owes them whatever they want. Conservatism dragged America down but not out and we are recovering despite you.

And we will continue to leave you behind.

 

[PMZ]

Yes comrade, the proletariat is being oppressed by the bourgeoisie. Our politician comrades, who only care about us and hate that they must live in ostentatious opulence, need to decide which businesses are primarily serving the interest of the State, which means they are serving the people, and remove the ones who do not. Only through complete subjugation to a State with ubiquitous power can we be free.

You're a Marxist. That's fine, just be honest about it.

I am in no way a Marxist. I'm the world's biggest fan of democracy. But I know that Fox propaganda has given you scapegoats and names to call them and you do what you're told to.

Why does the word "Marxist" bother you, comrade? It's accurate, so what's the issue with it?

It's not at all accurate. It's what you wish was true.

 

[kaz]

I am in no way a Marxist. I'm the world's biggest fan of democracy. But I know that Fox propaganda has given you scapegoats and names to call them and you do what you're told to.

Why does the word "Marxist" bother you, comrade? It's accurate, so what's the issue with it?

It's not at all accurate. It's what you wish was true.

Wrong again. Actually I wish people who live in the greatest, richest, freest country in the history of man would appreciate what capitalism, which is simply economic freedom, has brought us and they were not consumed in greed and wealth envy like you are.

I believe in equal opportunity. You believe in equal results. You don't care how big the pie is or the amount of pie you get, you just want to have all the slices the same size, except for your leaders who get big slabs for the sacrifice they have to make to have ubiquitous power.

You question how much a CEO contributes to the economy, you do not question how much a politician destroys the economy. Most CEOs are good. The bad ones lose their jobs. Bad politicians preaching greed and wealth envy get elected to a second term as President.

 

[PMZ]

Do you really think that more of what you wish was true denies it somehow?

I don't know anyone here who doesn't believe that capitalism is a great tool. Like a hammer. What would we do without hammers. Of course quite marginalized on screws.

I believe in accountability. Demonstrated success that can be rewarded with more responsibility. That’s why I love democracy. The ultimate in political accountability.

Business at the moment is failing the country. By the only measure that really counts, growth. But instead of accountability, what do we hear? Pitiful whining by the professional mourners recruited by Fox propaganda for their business partners, the Republican Party.

Even worse, we are rewarding failed and failing business leaders lavishly. Like royalty. For screwing customers and employees for the one group that adds zero value. Shareholders.

Business is broken. Government was, but has been recovering.

Of course as a Fox addict, you have no idea of what's going on. You hear the opposite of what's going on 24/7/365. Why? That makes you useful to the people who are failing, so that they can avoid accountability.

In today's competitive world, America can't afford failure. The path away from it involves massive accountability changes.

That's what informed people in America are working on.

 

[kaz]

Even worse, we are rewarding failed and failing business leaders lavishly. Like royalty. For screwing customers and employees for the one group that adds zero value. Shareholders.

And it's up to you and unaccountable government to make that decision, isn't it comrade?

You don't know the difference between business leaders who compete in a marketplace where if they fail they die and politicians who just plunder and get away with it endlessly and when they fail they plunder more. Our businesses have done an outstanding job as our government goes more and more Marxist. Obamacare is yet another atrocity where government forces social health care policy to be the provided by employers. Government control over companies in a government controlled health care marketplace.

Yet you advocate further power of the plunderers over the plundered while you alibi your beliefs by blaming the victim for your crimes. And like Marxists call your countries things like "Democratic Republic" which they are anything but, you call your Marxist economic policies a belief in capitalism. You just want to fix it. With Marxism.

 

[PMZ]

Even worse, we are rewarding failed and failing business leaders lavishly. Like royalty. For screwing customers and employees for the one group that adds zero value. Shareholders.

And it's up to you and unaccountable government to make that decision, isn't it comrade?

Why no Fuhrer. We are a democracy. The politicians are fully accountable to we the people. They serve at our behest. Business leaders are only accountable to their golfing buddies on the BOD. Quid pro quo.

You don't know the difference between business leaders who compete in a marketplace where if they fail they die and politicians who just plunder and get away with it endlessly and when they fail they plunder more. Our businesses have done an outstanding job as our government goes more and more Marxist. Obamacare is yet another atrocity where government forces social health care policy to be the provided by employers. Government control over companies in a government controlled health care marketplace.

See, this what I'm talking about. Whining from professional mourners recruited by Fox to support their business partners, the GOP.

What happened to good old American cognitive independence?

Yet you advocate further power of the plunderers over the plundered while you alibi your beliefs by blaming the victim for your crimes. And like Marxists call your countries things like "Democratic Republic" which they are anything but, you call your Marxist economic policies a belief in capitalism. You just want to fix it. With Marxism.

Fuhrer, I know how you like others to be accountable to you but are so uncomfortable with we, the people holding you accountable. That's the way that American business leaders have become. And they hire Fox to recruit whiners to avoid that. Who can blame them.

But, this is the country that we, the people, are the BOD of. We know how to keep the government accountable. We just need to apply that lesson to business.

 

[kaz]

Fuhrer, I know how you like others to be accountable to you but are so uncomfortable with we, the people holding you accountable.

Business leaders being accountable to politicians isn't liberty, it's tyranny. They are accountable to the owners of the company, which is the shareholders.

That's the way that American business leaders have become. And they hire Fox to recruit whiners to avoid that. Who can blame them.

I don't care what MS-NBC told you

But, this is the country that we, the people, are the BOD of. We know how to keep the government accountable. We just need to apply that lesson to business[/B].

Businesses are accountable, just not to politicians. At least not in a free country. If you had a sense of priority you'd be looking at our endless trillion dollar debts and be worried about the politicians. They are the ones destroying us. And you want to give them MORE power to decide what businesses are acting in the interest of the politicians?

Dude, self help starts with admitting you have a problem. Repeat after me. I am PMZ, and I am a Marxist. Only then can you start to get help...

 

[PMZ]

Fuhrer, I don't think that you understand the concept of democracy. We, the people, are the BOD. We do the hiring and firing. Elected officials are already accountable to us. There is not the slightest doubt about that.

As the BOD, we are responsible to make sure that the people accountable to us solve national problems.

We have a national problem with business leaders failing at their one responsibility, growth. That lack of performance by them is responsible for about half of our national debt. How can a BOD tolerate that performance?

Businesses run on accountability. Everyone but the executives who are only accountable to their golfing buddies on their BOD.

We not only can, but should, have to even, solve this national problem. There isn't a true business person in the world who would disagree that performance problems need to be addressed by accountability. Make business leaders not accountable to politicians but to we, the people, who have a much bigger stake in their performance than shareholders do.

How, therefore, can you be against this? Shouldn't we treat all leaders the same?

 

[RKMBrown]

The rich should have an effective 30% tax rate.

The poor should have an effective 50% tax rate. Give them a reason to want to work.

Explain to me how this would benefit our economy please. Why would anyone work if they had to pay more taxes than their greedy bosses who are already severely underpaying them. This would cause a revolution. But I want to hear what you think this would do please elaborate.

It would benefit our economy because there would be a reason for people to want to earn the right to have a lower effective tax rate. The more you earn the lower your effective tax rate. As I said in the subsequent post, anyone that does not pay their fair share (7500 annualy) would be put in jail. Forced to work in a labor camp maybe. Basically I'm arguing for a strengthening of vagrancy laws. I'm done carrying losers. Time for them to buck up.

 

[PMZ]

The poor should have an effective 50% tax rate. Give them a reason to want to work.

Explain to me how this would benefit our economy please. Why would anyone work if they had to pay more taxes than their greedy bosses who are already severely underpaying them. This would cause a revolution. But I want to hear what you think this would do please elaborate.

It would benefit our economy because there would be a reason for people to want to earn the right to have a lower effective tax rate. The more you earn the lower your effective tax rate. As I said in the subsequent post, anyone that does not pay their fair share (7500 annualy) would be put in jail. Forced to work in a labor camp maybe. Basically I'm arguing for a strengthening of vagrancy laws. I'm done carrying losers. Time for them to buck up.

Would a, 50% tax rate give you a reason to want to work?

 

[RKMBrown]

Explain to me how this would benefit our economy please. Why would anyone work if they had to pay more taxes than their greedy bosses who are already severely underpaying them. This would cause a revolution. But I want to hear what you think this would do please elaborate.

It would benefit our economy because there would be a reason for people to want to earn the right to have a lower effective tax rate. The more you earn the lower your effective tax rate. As I said in the subsequent post, anyone that does not pay their fair share (7500 annualy) would be put in jail. Forced to work in a labor camp maybe. Basically I'm arguing for a strengthening of vagrancy laws. I'm done carrying losers. Time for them to buck up.

Would a, 50% tax rate give you a reason to want to work?

If the first 10hrs of work was taxed at 50%, the second 10hrs was taxed at 25%, the third 10hrs at 10%, the fourth 10hrs at 5%, and any hours over 40 were not taxed I'd work 60hrs a week.

If the first 10hrs of work was taxed at 0%, the second 10hrs was taxed at 5%, the third 10hrs at 10%, the fourth 10hrs at 25%, any hours over 40 were taxed at 50%, and anyone only working 10hrs was paid 10hrs for free. I'd work 10hrs hrs a week.

 

[PMZ]

It would benefit our economy because there would be a reason for people to want to earn the right to have a lower effective tax rate. The more you earn the lower your effective tax rate. As I said in the subsequent post, anyone that does not pay their fair share (7500 annualy) would be put in jail. Forced to work in a labor camp maybe. Basically I'm arguing for a strengthening of vagrancy laws. I'm done carrying losers. Time for them to buck up.

Would a, 50% tax rate give you a reason to want to work?

If the first 10hrs of work was taxed at 50%, the second 10hrs was taxed at 25%, the third 10hrs at 10%, the fourth 10hrs at 5%, and any hours over 40 were not taxed I'd work 60hrs a week.

If the first 10hrs of work was taxed at 0%, the second 10hrs was taxed at 5%, the third 10hrs at 10%, the fourth 10hrs at 25%, any hours over 40 were taxed at 50%, and anyone only working 10hrs was paid 10hrs for free. I'd work 10hrs hrs a week.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[zeke]

OK, so you want to stick it to the rich, great. Would you still allow 50% of the population to pay zero federal income taxes?

BTW, the cap gains tax and other so-called loopholes were put into the tax code to incentivize investment in business in order to grow the economy. When people with money buy stock they help businesses start up or grow, that creates jobs and govt revenue.

the answer is not as simple as 'screw the rich'

I have read your posts before. I knew you had a reading comprehension problem but wtf.

You can't or didn't read the part about getting rid of the EIC? Do you know what the EIC is?

You can't read or didn't read the part about getting rid of the mortgage interest deduction?

I think you agree with the last thing I wrote. You and your kind don't really want to do anything about the debt. You all just want to bitch about it.

That sound about right to you?

eliminating EIC is a good idea, we agree.

the mortgage interest deduction exists as an incentive for people to own their homes rather than renting. It is a positive thing for the country.

I have said many times that govt spending should be cut across the board by 1/4 to 1/3. Cut every agency and program by the same %. balance spending to income.

collecting more taxes is not the answer, unless you think that govt can spend YOUR money better than you can.

and grow with the juvenile insults, it makes you look like a fool.

And here in is the reason people like me consider people like you a hypocrite.

You want to do anything with the massive Federal debt was the question. My suggestion had everyone feeling pain. Poor, middle, rich.
Yet you are only ok with taking away from those with the least. But don't take away YOUR home interest deduction. You like it.

Hypocrite is the word for sure.

And don't give me that bullshit that its "good for the country". Why is it the governments responsibility to worry about the private housing market? Thought you repubs wanted your "freedom from the hated government".

Just don't take away your tax goodies eh?

Hypocrite be the right wingers.

 

[RKMBrown]

Would a, 50% tax rate give you a reason to want to work?

If the first 10hrs of work was taxed at 50%, the second 10hrs was taxed at 25%, the third 10hrs at 10%, the fourth 10hrs at 5%, and any hours over 40 were not taxed I'd work 60hrs a week.

If the first 10hrs of work was taxed at 0%, the second 10hrs was taxed at 5%, the third 10hrs at 10%, the fourth 10hrs at 25%, any hours over 40 were taxed at 50%, and anyone only working 10hrs was paid 10hrs for free. I'd work 10hrs hrs a week.

You didn't answer my question.

Yes, I did. If you can't see your 50% tax rate in my response, I can't help you, you need glasses.

I'll leave you with some sayings to consider.

1) Don't piss in the wind.
2) When sailing it's easier to sail downwind than up-wind.
3) It's easier to dig a hole if you toss the sand out of the pit.
4) If you want a dog to bark at intruders you don't kick him when he barks.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

(For me) It took a Repub President invading a country that didn't attack us for me to understand that Repubs were to be considered untrustworthy.

It took you seven years later when a black dude was elected President for you to decide that the black guy couldn't be trusted.

See ANY difference? Of course not. It's just politics as usual with you.

Just ignore the Democrat controlled Congress that authorized it and the many Democrats that supported it.

As you Repubs like to remind everyone and of course I agree. The buck stops at the White House. For both a Repub President and a Dem President. That's why they are the leaders of their respective parties. To take the blame and the credit.

And of course you want to shift the blame for the disaster known as Iraq, as far away from the Repubs as possible. You all have been doing that ever since it was known that the war in Iraq was a bad bad mistake.

Why are you repubs not PROUD of the disaster in Iraq. You all wanted it so bad that you sold the idea of invading Iraq to the rest of the country. Be proud of your mistakes. After all, you break it, you own it. (who said that)?

You agree? I have yet to see you hold Obama accountable for anything.

FTR I was against the Iraq war. But I supported the troops that were ordered to go there.