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Too bad your short attention span kicked in and you failed to comprehend the rest of my post. Had you continued reading you might have understood my point.
Indeed, The stupidity of this statement:
The reality here is that underpaying your janitors is the same thing as raising your own taxes.
caused me to ignore the balance of your babblings.
I never said I would "underpay" anyone.
Perhaps your head was up your academic ass:
I said I would pay one very good janitor $17/hr, WELL OVER the $9/hr minimum wage, expecting him/her to deliver the same services/hr as two (2) entry level janitors.
Furthermore, I would expect a $17/hr janitor would be very loyal; MUCH more loyal than either of two $9/hr janitors, and that I would save on the costs YOU mentioned associated with continuously rehiring and retraining.
How good of you to admit to your own shortcomings. That is the first step to remedying them.
I agree that you said that you would pay $17/hr to one janitor. But then you expect him to do 16 hours of work in an 8 hour day. Apparently you do not understand the basics of what can be accomplished in a workday. The concepts of productivity and quality are time related as opposed to renumeration related.
You have also admitted to having no understanding of the bigger picture when it comes failing to pay a living wage and the impact that has on government services and your own taxes.
Since you don't appear to have any grasp whatsoever of these crucial aspects it means that you just disqualified yourself from any further meaningful debate on the issue.
Hopefully you will have better luck on another topic. Have a nice day.
Indeed, The stupidity of this statement:
The reality here is that underpaying your janitors is the same thing as raising your own taxes.
caused me to ignore the balance of your babblings.
I never said I would "underpay" anyone.
Perhaps your head was up your academic ass:
I said I would pay one very good janitor $17/hr, WELL OVER the $9/hr minimum wage, expecting him/her to deliver the same services/hr as two (2) entry level janitors.
Furthermore, I would expect a $17/hr janitor would be very loyal; MUCH more loyal than either of two $9/hr janitors, and that I would save on the costs YOU mentioned associated with continuously rehiring and retraining.
How good of you to admit to your own shortcomings. That is the first step to remedying them.
I agree that you said that you would pay $17/hr to one janitor. But then you expect him to do 16 hours of work in an 8 hour day. Apparently you do not understand the basics of what can be accomplished in a workday. The concepts of productivity and quality are time related as opposed to renumeration related.
You have also admitted to having no understanding of the bigger picture when it comes failing to pay a living wage and the impact that has on government services and your own taxes.
Since you don't appear to have any grasp whatsoever of these crucial aspects it means that you just disqualified yourself from any further meaningful debate on the issue.
Hopefully you will have better luck on another topic. Have a nice day.
total horseshit-----the price of labor should be set by supply and demand, not some foolish govt mandate. the whole "living wage" idea is lunacy. a "living wage" for a guy with 4 kids in San Francisco is totally different from the "living wage" for a single guy in south dakota.
NO one is owed a "living wage" you are only owed what you earn. If you have more skills and talents than the other guy you will earn more.
the whole minimum wage idea is a cop out.
How good of you to admit to your own shortcomings. That is the first step to remedying them.
I agree that you said that you would pay $17/hr to one janitor. But then you expect him to do 16 hours of work in an 8 hour day. Apparently you do not understand the basics of what can be accomplished in a workday. The concepts of productivity and quality are time related as opposed to renumeration related.
You have also admitted to having no understanding of the bigger picture when it comes failing to pay a living wage and the impact that has on government services and your own taxes.
Since you don't appear to have any grasp whatsoever of these crucial aspects it means that you just disqualified yourself from any further meaningful debate on the issue.
Hopefully you will have better luck on another topic. Have a nice day.
total horseshit-----the price of labor should be set by supply and demand, not some foolish govt mandate. the whole "living wage" idea is lunacy. a "living wage" for a guy with 4 kids in San Francisco is totally different from the "living wage" for a single guy in south dakota.
NO one is owed a "living wage" you are only owed what you earn. If you have more skills and talents than the other guy you will earn more.
the whole minimum wage idea is a cop out.
Where did I post that anyone was owed a living wage?
I was pointing out the cost to society to underpaying people. When someone is earning poverty level wages whether in SF or SD the impact on your taxes is the same. They end up needing foodstamps and using the ER for their healthcare which you are paying for. If they were paid a living wage those burdens would no longer be on the taxpayers.
How difficult is it for those who want to slash entitlement spending to understand the root causes? What is the future for America if you continue to underpay workers and reduce entitlements? Do you really want America to become a 3rd world nation? Because that is exactly where you are headed with your current positions. There is a bigger picture here. Try and take a step back and see if you can figure it out for yourselves.
total horseshit-----the price of labor should be set by supply and demand, not some foolish govt mandate. the whole "living wage" idea is lunacy. a "living wage" for a guy with 4 kids in San Francisco is totally different from the "living wage" for a single guy in south dakota.
NO one is owed a "living wage" you are only owed what you earn. If you have more skills and talents than the other guy you will earn more.
the whole minimum wage idea is a cop out.
Where did I post that anyone was owed a living wage?
I was pointing out the cost to society to underpaying people. When someone is earning poverty level wages whether in SF or SD the impact on your taxes is the same. They end up needing foodstamps and using the ER for their healthcare which you are paying for. If they were paid a living wage those burdens would no longer be on the taxpayers.
How difficult is it for those who want to slash entitlement spending to understand the root causes? What is the future for America if you continue to underpay workers and reduce entitlements? Do you really want America to become a 3rd world nation? Because that is exactly where you are headed with your current positions. There is a bigger picture here. Try and take a step back and see if you can figure it out for yourselves.
So your solution to poverty is to overpay everyone in poverty? People do not NEED foodstamps unless they are unable to work for physical or mental reasons. ever hear of working two jobs to make ends meet?
If McDonalds raises their pay scale, two things happen, 1. their prices go up meaning they sell fewer burgers and 2. the employ fewer people. Then those people go on unemployment and/or foodstamps and welfare-----and WE pay the bill.
You have the whole concept backwards.
Where did I post that anyone was owed a living wage?
I was pointing out the cost to society to underpaying people. When someone is earning poverty level wages whether in SF or SD the impact on your taxes is the same. They end up needing foodstamps and using the ER for their healthcare which you are paying for. If they were paid a living wage those burdens would no longer be on the taxpayers.
How difficult is it for those who want to slash entitlement spending to understand the root causes? What is the future for America if you continue to underpay workers and reduce entitlements? Do you really want America to become a 3rd world nation? Because that is exactly where you are headed with your current positions. There is a bigger picture here. Try and take a step back and see if you can figure it out for yourselves.
So your solution to poverty is to overpay everyone in poverty? People do not NEED foodstamps unless they are unable to work for physical or mental reasons. ever hear of working two jobs to make ends meet?
If McDonalds raises their pay scale, two things happen, 1. their prices go up meaning they sell fewer burgers and 2. the employ fewer people. Then those people go on unemployment and/or foodstamps and welfare-----and WE pay the bill.
You have the whole concept backwards.
Your McDonalds example is faulty because what is happening right now is that their current prices are being subsidized by taxpayers.
Why do you want to subsidize a corporation the size of McD's for the dubious privilege of paying a few cents less per burger and big gulp?
FYI all of the fast food places will be raising the price of their burgers once the Sequester finally kicks into full gear. Since the government is forced to eliminate meat inspectors plants won't be able to process any meat and the price of burgers will skyrocket because of short supply.
You can thank your local Teabagger Representative when you are paying $20+/lb for hamburgers this 4th of July.
So your solution to poverty is to overpay everyone in poverty? People do not NEED foodstamps unless they are unable to work for physical or mental reasons. ever hear of working two jobs to make ends meet?
If McDonalds raises their pay scale, two things happen, 1. their prices go up meaning they sell fewer burgers and 2. the employ fewer people. Then those people go on unemployment and/or foodstamps and welfare-----and WE pay the bill.
You have the whole concept backwards.
Your McDonalds example is faulty because what is happening right now is that their current prices are being subsidized by taxpayers.
Why do you want to subsidize a corporation the size of McD's for the dubious privilege of paying a few cents less per burger and big gulp?
FYI all of the fast food places will be raising the price of their burgers once the Sequester finally kicks into full gear. Since the government is forced to eliminate meat inspectors plants won't be able to process any meat and the price of burgers will skyrocket because of short supply.
You can thank your local Teabagger Representative when you are paying $20+/lb for hamburgers this 4th of July.
your last post is so ludicrous that it does not merit a reply. the sequester reduced the growth of the federal budget by 2%------not the budget, the growth.
Obama is lying to you about the impact and you are buying it like a jackass eating shit out of a light socket.
So your solution to poverty is to overpay everyone in poverty? People do not NEED foodstamps unless they are unable to work for physical or mental reasons. ever hear of working two jobs to make ends meet?
If McDonalds raises their pay scale, two things happen, 1. their prices go up meaning they sell fewer burgers and 2. the employ fewer people. Then those people go on unemployment and/or foodstamps and welfare-----and WE pay the bill.
You have the whole concept backwards.
Your McDonalds example is faulty because what is happening right now is that their current prices are being subsidized by taxpayers.
Why do you want to subsidize a corporation the size of McD's for the dubious privilege of paying a few cents less per burger and big gulp?
FYI all of the fast food places will be raising the price of their burgers once the Sequester finally kicks into full gear. Since the government is forced to eliminate meat inspectors plants won't be able to process any meat and the price of burgers will skyrocket because of short supply.
You can thank your local Teabagger Representative when you are paying $20+/lb for hamburgers this 4th of July.
your last post is so ludicrous that it does not merit a reply. the sequester reduced the growth of the federal budget by 2%------not the budget, the growth.
Obama is lying to you about the impact and you are buying it like a jackass eating shit out of a light socket.
Alternate headline: 71% of the public failed high school economics.
Your McDonalds example is faulty because what is happening right now is that their current prices are being subsidized by taxpayers.
Why do you want to subsidize a corporation the size of McD's for the dubious privilege of paying a few cents less per burger and big gulp?
FYI all of the fast food places will be raising the price of their burgers once the Sequester finally kicks into full gear. Since the government is forced to eliminate meat inspectors plants won't be able to process any meat and the price of burgers will skyrocket because of short supply.
You can thank your local Teabagger Representative when you are paying $20+/lb for hamburgers this 4th of July.
your last post is so ludicrous that it does not merit a reply. the sequester reduced the growth of the federal budget by 2%------not the budget, the growth.
Obama is lying to you about the impact and you are buying it like a jackass eating shit out of a light socket.
Let's see the math, because the sequester is suppose to be in the 80 billion dollar range!
Where did I post that anyone was owed a living wage?
I was pointing out the cost to society to underpaying people. When someone is earning poverty level wages whether in SF or SD the impact on your taxes is the same. They end up needing foodstamps and using the ER for their healthcare which you are paying for. If they were paid a living wage those burdens would no longer be on the taxpayers.
How difficult is it for those who want to slash entitlement spending to understand the root causes? What is the future for America if you continue to underpay workers and reduce entitlements? Do you really want America to become a 3rd world nation? Because that is exactly where you are headed with your current positions. There is a bigger picture here. Try and take a step back and see if you can figure it out for yourselves.
So your solution to poverty is to overpay everyone in poverty? People do not NEED foodstamps unless they are unable to work for physical or mental reasons. ever hear of working two jobs to make ends meet?
If McDonalds raises their pay scale, two things happen, 1. their prices go up meaning they sell fewer burgers and 2. the employ fewer people. Then those people go on unemployment and/or foodstamps and welfare-----and WE pay the bill.
You have the whole concept backwards.
Your McDonalds example is faulty because what is happening right now is that their current prices are being subsidized by taxpayers.
Why do you want to subsidize a corporation the size of McD's for the dubious privilege of paying a few cents less per burger and big gulp?
FYI all of the fast food places will be raising the price of their burgers once the Sequester finally kicks into full gear. Since the government is forced to eliminate meat inspectors plants won't be able to process any meat and the price of burgers will skyrocket because of short supply.
You can thank your local Teabagger Representative when you are paying $20+/lb for hamburgers this 4th of July.
Where did I post that anyone was owed a living wage?
I was pointing out the cost to society to underpaying people. When someone is earning poverty level wages whether in SF or SD the impact on your taxes is the same. They end up needing foodstamps and using the ER for their healthcare which you are paying for. If they were paid a living wage those burdens would no longer be on the taxpayers.
How difficult is it for those who want to slash entitlement spending to understand the root causes? What is the future for America if you continue to underpay workers and reduce entitlements? Do you really want America to become a 3rd world nation? Because that is exactly where you are headed with your current positions. There is a bigger picture here. Try and take a step back and see if you can figure it out for yourselves.
So your solution to poverty is to overpay everyone in poverty? People do not NEED foodstamps unless they are unable to work for physical or mental reasons. ever hear of working two jobs to make ends meet?
If McDonalds raises their pay scale, two things happen, 1. their prices go up meaning they sell fewer burgers and 2. the employ fewer people. Then those people go on unemployment and/or foodstamps and welfare-----and WE pay the bill.
You have the whole concept backwards.
Your McDonalds example is faulty because what is happening right now is that their current prices are being subsidized by taxpayers.
Why do you want to subsidize a corporation the size of McD's for the dubious privilege of paying a few cents less per burger and big gulp?
FYI all of the fast food places will be raising the price of their burgers once the Sequester finally kicks into full gear. Since the government is forced to eliminate meat inspectors plants won't be able to process any meat and the price of burgers will skyrocket because of short supply.
You can thank your local Teabagger Representative when you are paying $20+/lb for hamburgers this 4th of July.
You did no such thing. You didn't address a single point I made. I usually loathe quoting Wikipedia, but...
Link
Experts weigh in
The Economist
Something else
Still missing the point? Amazing.
Do you understand what "refuting the premise" means? You start out with a premise, then from that premise draw a conclusion. Here, stripped out from all the extraneous stuff, is your premise that I addressed. Watch carefully ....
when the cost of labor rises
Did ya catch it?
A raise in the minimum wage is not the "cost of labor rising". It's the cost of labor equalizing after i has already lost value due to inflation of the currency. That's been going on since way before we were a glimmer in our Daddy's eyes. Your $7.25 an hour McDonald's manager has been getting off cheap, literally. Now it's time to pay the piper. Or doesn't a fair wage for fair day's work fit in with your plans?
Do you expect to buy a new Ford for $850 because that was the price in 1908?
If you dance to the music, don't you know you got to pay to the piper? Axe your mama.
I say this with love, but you are one dumb fuck. In what world does an increase in labor costs paid out per hour not mean a rise in the "cost of labor"? You were even given sources which state that the cost of labor would rise. You just can't be this stupid.
Still missing the point? Amazing.
Do you understand what "refuting the premise" means? You start out with a premise, then from that premise draw a conclusion. Here, stripped out from all the extraneous stuff, is your premise that I addressed. Watch carefully ....
Did ya catch it?
A raise in the minimum wage is not the "cost of labor rising". It's the cost of labor equalizing after i has already lost value due to inflation of the currency. That's been going on since way before we were a glimmer in our Daddy's eyes. Your $7.25 an hour McDonald's manager has been getting off cheap, literally. Now it's time to pay the piper. Or doesn't a fair wage for fair day's work fit in with your plans?
Do you expect to buy a new Ford for $850 because that was the price in 1908?
If you dance to the music, don't you know you got to pay to the piper? Axe your mama.
I say this with love, but you are one dumb fuck. In what world does an increase in labor costs paid out per hour not mean a rise in the "cost of labor"? You were even given sources which state that the cost of labor would rise. You just can't be this stupid.
You are correct. I ain't. Perhaps you're illiterate. since I've spelled it out for you twice in big bold letters. I just can't dumb it down any further; your premise, that a MW raise represents an "increased" labor cost, is false; rather, it's an adjustment to an undervaluation of labor. I've demonstrated that, textually and graphically and you go on and on as if nothing just happened and propose that suddenly after 75 years we're going to stop making those adjustments? Really?
Well I can only lead the horse to water. For some I guess obtusity is its own reward.
Enjoy the Bubble. Catch up when you figure it out. My work is done here.
Your McDonalds example is faulty because what is happening right now is that their current prices are being subsidized by taxpayers.
Why do you want to subsidize a corporation the size of McD's for the dubious privilege of paying a few cents less per burger and big gulp?
FYI all of the fast food places will be raising the price of their burgers once the Sequester finally kicks into full gear. Since the government is forced to eliminate meat inspectors plants won't be able to process any meat and the price of burgers will skyrocket because of short supply.
You can thank your local Teabagger Representative when you are paying $20+/lb for hamburgers this 4th of July.
your last post is so ludicrous that it does not merit a reply. the sequester reduced the growth of the federal budget by 2%------not the budget, the growth.
Obama is lying to you about the impact and you are buying it like a jackass eating shit out of a light socket.
Resorting to mindless insults instead of substance is the signature of a loser. Perhaps you will have better luck next time. Have a nice day.
Acrually the "simplest logic" will kick in as soon as it dawns on you that you need two janitors.... and that you've been paying them too little. It's called "reality check". Changing one of the factors in the equation (the number of janitors) is nothing more than a moving-the-goalposts fallacy.
By the previous logic, you would drive to the gas station and expect to fill up your Buick for $2.50. Because dammit, that's what you filled up for in 1966. And to follow your single-janitor theory, the solution to the gallon price going up would be to buy half as much gas. Think about it.
Currency value changes; that's just the reality. You can't accept the price of everything else going up and then suddenly put up a stop sign when it comes to human labor -- which is by nature always the last one to follow suit, which it must, to keep up. That's uh, what COLA means.
I'll just put this out again until it sinks in. When a 16-year-old high school kid entered the work force in 1968 the MW was $1.25 an hour. In 2013 dollars that value is equal to $8.27. The current MW is $7.25. Which means a 16-year old kid taking the same job would be making, all together now.... LESS than the 1968 kid did for the same work. Do the freaking math already; this is not rocket surgery.
Lots of issues have arguable opposite sides. This is not one of them. There is no argument for allowing wages to deteriorate. None. Unless you're willing to work for 13 cents a day on principle. Rotsa ruck with that.
How is paying one janitor $17/hr rather than two janitors $18/hr "allowing wages to deteriorate?"
Try to keep up: If the MW is $9/hr, then a guy making $17/hr is making MUCH more than the MW.
Hope I didn't go to fast for you, sparky.
I'll also give you a little clue: No one "needs" two janitors. What's needed are janitorial services. If ONE well paid janitor can provide the services of two or three entry level janitors, and SAVE MONEY, then that's what will happen.
If it takes 16 or 24 hours of janitorial services to do the job paying one janitor twice the rate won't alter the elapsed time it takes to get the job done without a corresponding productivity increase. To achieve your desired productivity increase you are going to have to invest in expensive equipment upgrades which will also incur their own maintenance costs.
The reality here is that underpaying your janitors is the same thing as raising your own taxes. Even janitors need healthcare and if you don't provide it then the state does and you have to pay for those state medical services in the form of higher taxes. The same applies to foodstamps, subsidized rent, etc, etc. If you want to have lower taxes you need to pay living wages to everyone regardless of whether they are working at the menial level or the managerial level.
A good manager takes a holistic view of not only their own business but also the society in which it operates. Underpaying the cost of living will damage the local economy and ultimately harm the corporation when skilled labor no longer wants to live and work in the area. Parasitic corporations have done a lot of damage to America by focusing only on the short term bottom line.
The concept of a "good corporate citizen" means understanding that the surrounding society needs to thrive just as much as the business does since each depends upon the other for long term survival.
So your solution to poverty is to overpay everyone in poverty? People do not NEED foodstamps unless they are unable to work for physical or mental reasons. ever hear of working two jobs to make ends meet?
If McDonalds raises their pay scale, two things happen, 1. their prices go up meaning they sell fewer burgers and 2. the employ fewer people. Then those people go on unemployment and/or foodstamps and welfare-----and WE pay the bill.
You have the whole concept backwards.
Your McDonalds example is faulty because what is happening right now is that their current prices are being subsidized by taxpayers.
Why do you want to subsidize a corporation the size of McD's for the dubious privilege of paying a few cents less per burger and big gulp?
FYI all of the fast food places will be raising the price of their burgers once the Sequester finally kicks into full gear. Since the government is forced to eliminate meat inspectors plants won't be able to process any meat and the price of burgers will skyrocket because of short supply.
You can thank your local Teabagger Representative when you are paying $20+/lb for hamburgers this 4th of July.
What a load of horse shit. Government mismanagement is to blame, nothing less. Extortion works, too. If you don't do what we tell you, we will use our government authority to make you suffer for it. Real impressive. How about parking Air-force One, instead?
U.S. Department of Agriculture
The AP reports that meat and poultry inspectors at the Agriculture Department initially were told they might be furloughed for 11 consecutive days between June and July, possibly leading to a meat supply shortage and higher prices. But Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack backed away from that at a House hearing this week, telling lawmakers that the furloughs would not be consecutive after all.
"Furloughs are going to cause disruption," USDA spokeswoman Courtney Rowe said Wednesday. "We're looking to do it in ways that cause the minimum impact.
The Pentagon
Members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff paint a dire picture of construction projects on hold, limits on aircraft carriers patrolling the waters and even a delay in the expansion of Arlington National Cemetery, the AP reports. About 800,000 Defense Department civilians face furloughs.
Veterans' funerals at Arlington could be cut to 24 a day from 31. Troops killed in action in Afghanistan will be the priority; they usually are laid to rest within two weeks. Beginning in April, the Army will cancel maintenance at depots, which will force 5,000 layoffs, and it also will let go more than 3,000 temporary and contract employees.
Football games and air shows will have to find a new group of flyboys to thrill their audiences: Beginning April 1, all performances by the Air Force Thunderbirds are cancelled through September.
Customs and Border Protection
Three days after the sequester officially took hold of the budget, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano sounded the alarm for travelers who she said would already be seeing customs lines at airports double their normal length. Last Saturday, according to the Customs and Border Protection agency (CBP), some wait times exceeded three hours at the country's top two international gateway airports - John F. Kennedy International (JFK) in New York, and Miami International (MIA) - due to overtime cuts.
The Wall Street Journal reported Tuesday, however, that "officials representing a dozen major airports said there were few if any unusual flight delays or lines at security or customs checkpoints." That included an official at John F. Kennedy Airport in New York, which is one of the two airports that had been specifically cited by Customs and Border Protection.
The sky isn't falling - yet - despite WH sequester message
Starting April 21, the impact should be clearer. On Thursday, the CBP issued furlough notices to thousands of employees, Government Executive reports. From April 21 through the end of September, full-time employees will be furloughed up to 14 workdays, and part-time employees will have their furlough time pro-rated.
Transportation Security Administration
Although there has not been an immediate impact on airport security lines, the Transportation Security Administration (TSA) said they expect longer lines in the coming months.
Beginning next month, the TSA - which runs security checkpoints and baggage - will impose a hiring freeze that could leave 1,000 vacancies by Memorial Day and as many as 2,600 by the end of the fiscal year in September.
"With TSA staffing levels decreasing over time, we expect that during busy travel periods wait times exceeding 30-40 minutes could double at nearly all of the largest airports," a TSA spokesperson said. "In addition, passengers who schedule their travel outside of peak flight schedules and plan to arrive close to their scheduled flight time may see their wait times now reach 30 minutes or more."
Federal Aviation Administration
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) announced this week that beginning in early April it will implement furloughs for each of its employees one to two days a month. With fewer air traffic controllers manning towers, flights will be reduced and landings delayed.
FAA officials have said they expect to eliminate overnight shifts by air traffic controllers in more than 60 airport towers and close more than 100 towers at smaller airports, according to the AP. But information posted online by the agency shows 72 airports that could lose midnight shifts and 238 airports whose towers could be closed.
"Worse," the FAA said in a statement, the agency intends to close many air traffic control towers around the country, leaving airports to rely on pilots communicating their positions via airport radio frequency
Hmm declining GDP, debt crisis, soaring energy costs, lowest workforce participation rate since the early 80s. You name it.
The GDP is NOT declining. See chart below. It declined the first two years Obama was in office because unemployment continued to rise as a result of the Bush policies, for a long period of time after Obama took office, but GDP is now rising steadily.
United States GNP Chart
There is no debt crisis. This is a manufactured crisis that the right wing has come up with as the excuse to cut social programs. The deficit is a problem, but with increased revenues, and reduced spending on social programs due to raising the minimum wage, and the wars overseas are now ending so the deficit should come down substantially starting this year.
Soaring energy costs are the fault of big oil companies. The government has nothing to do with the price of oil, that's a free market issue.
No, YOU name it because the stock market is up, housing prices are up, employment is up, GDP is up, the government is shrinking, and so is the deficit. That's why Fox News is now predicting the complete collapse of the US economy.
