Poll: Solid majority (71%) of Americans support Obama’s increase of the minimum wage

[hunarcy]

Apparently what they're saying is:
Price of bread goes up? Unfortunate, but pay it.
Price of utilities goes up? Grumble but pay it.
Price of gas goes up? Bitch about it and pay it.
Price of labor goes up to cope with all of the above? WHOA HOLD IT RIGHT THERE, NO YOU DON'T!

Yeah I like to think it's kind of tragic comedy. "Funny" in a sadistic way.

No, what's being said, is that ARTIFICALLY raising the price of labor is a pointless exercise which increases unemployment AND inflation. You can't win an argument if you don't really understand the issue, which obviously you don't. If you are unaware, you'll propbably be shocked to learn that most people who start at mnimum wage are earning more than that within one year...raising minimum wage merely makes labor more expensive and retards hiring. As skills are developed, worders are given raises.

Poster please, don't patronize me. I've forgotten more than you'll find out in the entire rest of the month. Go read my posts until you get what's being said and then stick your condescending ad hominem misspelled crap back up your ass. Then try coming back with something with some meat on it.

I see you can't deal with the argument and have been reduced to getting wound up about a typo. I accept your surrender.

 

[hunarcy]

Your argument that it's only teenagers and workers starting out making minimum wage, has already been debunked. Over 80% of the minimum wage workers are over 21, and nearly half of them are over 25 and supporting families.

Ah, so you are one of those who want to assign an argument that you can then slap down...the problem is that I never made that argument, so you have shown me that you're not one who should be taken seriously.

Have a good day.

 

[Pogo]

No, what's being said, is that ARTIFICALLY raising the price of labor is a pointless exercise which increases unemployment AND inflation. You can't win an argument if you don't really understand the issue, which obviously you don't. If you are unaware, you'll propbably be shocked to learn that most people who start at mnimum wage are earning more than that within one year...raising minimum wage merely makes labor more expensive and retards hiring. As skills are developed, worders are given raises.

Poster please, don't patronize me. I've forgotten more than you'll find out in the entire rest of the month. Go read my posts until you get what's being said and then stick your condescending ad hominem misspelled crap back up your ass. Then try coming back with something with some meat on it.

I see you can't deal with the argument and have been reduced to getting wound up about a typo. I accept your surrender.

IOW you came to battle unarmed and then wonder why you're bleeding. My neighbor's dog does the same thing-- barks at me from aross the road... when I keep walking up to him he runs away and barks from up the hill. Terrorizing I tell ya.

 

[Samson]

... the gov't should be made responsible to institute work-corps programs .......

"Work-corps programs" like the US Army?

no, public works - nation building ... Eliminating the roots of crime (its costs and victims).

Army Corps of Engineers?

Expanding the Federal Penetentary System?

 

[hunarcy]

Poster please, don't patronize me. I've forgotten more than you'll find out in the entire rest of the month. Go read my posts until you get what's being said and then stick your condescending ad hominem misspelled crap back up your ass. Then try coming back with something with some meat on it.

I see you can't deal with the argument and have been reduced to getting wound up about a typo. I accept your surrender.

IOW you came to battle unarmed and then wonder why you're bleeding. My neighbor's dog does the same thing-- barks at me from aross the road... when I keep walking up to him he runs away and barks from up the hill. Terrorizing I tell ya.

LMAO! Do enjoy being a legend in your own mind. You can't deal with the argument, so you resort to profanity and insults which shows what a juvenile you are. I have no patience with children posting from adult bodies, so enjoy my contempt and have a great day.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

Horseshit. I directly deconstructed your fallacy that a COLA is an "increased cost". Let's watch it again in slow motion:



I made it big and bold so that even you could find it.

Apparently I pointed out a simple everyday observation that you didn't think of, and you can't just admit you were wrong. Lot of that going around though.

You did no such thing. You didn't address a single point I made. I usually loathe quoting Wikipedia, but...

Link



Experts weigh in



The Economist



Something else

Still missing the point? Amazing.

Do you understand what "refuting the premise" means? You start out with a premise, then from that premise draw a conclusion. Here, stripped out from all the extraneous stuff, is your premise that I addressed. Watch carefully ....

when the cost of labor rises

Did ya catch it?

A raise in the minimum wage is not the "cost of labor rising". It's the cost of labor equalizing after i has already lost value due to inflation of the currency. That's been going on since way before we were a glimmer in our Daddy's eyes. Your $7.25 an hour McDonald's manager has been getting off cheap, literally. Now it's time to pay the piper. Or doesn't a fair wage for fair day's work fit in with your plans?

Do you expect to buy a new Ford for $850 because that was the price in 1908?

If you dance to the music, don't you know you got to pay to the piper? Axe your mama.

I say this with love, but you are one dumb fuck. In what world does an increase in labor costs paid out per hour not mean a rise in the "cost of labor"? You were even given sources which state that the cost of labor would rise. You just can't be this stupid.

 

[Samson]

Apparently what they're saying is:
Price of bread goes up? Unfortunate, but pay it.
Price of utilities goes up? Grumble but pay it.
Price of gas goes up? Bitch about it and pay it.
Price of labor goes up to cope with all of the above? WHOA HOLD IT RIGHT THERE, NO YOU DON'T!

Yeah I like to think it's kind of tragic comedy. "Funny" in a sadistic way.

Nothing "Apparent" about it, in fact the math is pretty simple:

Hire 2 janitors for $9/hr and pay $18/hr

Hire one janitor for $17/hr, save $1.00 per hour, and get a quality employee who is well paid, and loyal.

If anything is tragic about this, its the astonishing difficulty you have grasping even the simplest logic.

Acrually the "simplest logic" will kick in as soon as it dawns on you that you need two janitors.... and that you've been paying them too little. It's called "reality check". Changing one of the factors in the equation (the number of janitors) is nothing more than a moving-the-goalposts fallacy.

By the previous logic, you would drive to the gas station and expect to fill up your Buick for $2.50. Because dammit, that's what you filled up for in 1966. And to follow your single-janitor theory, the solution to the gallon price going up would be to buy half as much gas. Think about it.

Currency value changes; that's just the reality. You can't accept the price of everything else going up and then suddenly put up a stop sign when it comes to human labor -- which is by nature always the last one to follow suit, which it must, to keep up. That's uh, what COLA means.

I'll just put this out again until it sinks in. When a 16-year-old high school kid entered the work force in 1968 the MW was $1.25 an hour. In 2013 dollars that value is equal to $8.27. The current MW is $7.25. Which means a 16-year old kid taking the same job would be making, all together now.... LESS than the 1968 kid did for the same work. Do the freaking math already; this is not rocket surgery.

Lots of issues have arguable opposite sides. This is not one of them. There is no argument for allowing wages to deteriorate. None. Unless you're willing to work for 13 cents a day on principle. Rotsa ruck with that.

How is paying one janitor $17/hr rather than two janitors $18/hr "allowing wages to deteriorate?"

Try to keep up: If the MW is $9/hr, then a guy making $17/hr is making MUCH more than the MW.

Hope I didn't go to fast for you, sparky.

I'll also give you a little clue: No one "needs" two janitors. What's needed are janitorial services. If ONE well paid janitor can provide the services of two or three entry level janitors, and SAVE MONEY, then that's what will happen.

 

[tjvh]

I still don't think the consumers should be subsidizing LOSERS who think banging away at cash registers is a career choice.

 

[Samson]

I still don't think the consumers should be subsidizing LOSERS who think banging away at cash registers is a career choice.

Only use automatic check out lines.

 

[kidrocks]

So you think that increasing the cost of labor will somehow produce more of it?

Workers are very grateful for their increase thus turnover is dramatically reduced. Workers have more to spend and the local economy benefits greatly. Everyone is happy!

Do you think that money for the increased wages just comes out of the air. Someone has to foot the bill. But, you don't care, because you don't think it is going to be you. However, it will be you, and every other consumer. Prices will rise to offset the cost, and all those getting the increased minimum wage will be no better off than they were before the raise. People on fixed incomes will also pay more, and their standard of living will be diminished to some degree. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

That's right..."There is no such thing as a free lunch" and as soon as the 'job-creators' realize that and pay their workers a decent wage to begin with the better off they will be. The better off everyone will be. It's called, 'trickle-down' stupid!

 

[Dubya]

So you think that increasing the cost of labor will somehow produce more of it?

Workers are very grateful for their increase thus turnover is dramatically reduced. Workers have more to spend and the local economy benefits greatly. Everyone is happy!

Do you think that money for the increased wages just comes out of the air. Someone has to foot the bill. But, you don't care, because you don't think it is going to be you. However, it will be you, and every other consumer. Prices will rise to offset the cost, and all those getting the increased minimum wage will be no better off than they were before the raise. People on fixed incomes will also pay more, and their standard of living will be diminished to some degree. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

Prices only have to rise to offset the extra cost of labor minus the additional business the increase in consumer demand brings to the business that can be worked with the existing under capacity of the business.

Here is why the Republican Party is an epoch fail! They work to design an economic system that keeps inflation as low as possible and protects the elite's fortunes relative in value to the have nots and small business owners. We can even say small business includes people who may think of themselves as being rich because they own large amounts of commercial real estate. The Republicans know damned well that the purchasing power of the middle class and the working class has declined and that has to affect small business. They know that the minimum wage is around 70% of it's historic high value, so how does that translate into the difference of purchasing power that a small business experiences? That missing 30% is an additional 42.9% of purchasing power and it's money much more likely to not be spent on absolute necessities. A good portion of that 70% present wage is earmarked for survival and that includes people making near minimum wage who likewise have suffered an equal loss of purchasing power. That's a lot less money being spent at the businesses the small businessman owns and that business is not functioning near it's potential.

 

[The Rabbi]

Workers are very grateful for their increase thus turnover is dramatically reduced. Workers have more to spend and the local economy benefits greatly. Everyone is happy!

Do you think that money for the increased wages just comes out of the air. Someone has to foot the bill. But, you don't care, because you don't think it is going to be you. However, it will be you, and every other consumer. Prices will rise to offset the cost, and all those getting the increased minimum wage will be no better off than they were before the raise. People on fixed incomes will also pay more, and their standard of living will be diminished to some degree. There is no such thing as a free lunch.

That's right..."There is no such thing as a free lunch" and as soon as the 'job-creators' realize that and pay their workers a decent wage to begin with the better off they will be. The better off everyone will be. It's called, 'trickle-down' stupid!

People get paid what they're worth. Which is why you earn zero.

 

[ABikerSailor]

How many people will be grateful for losing their jobs because of it?

It's not exactly a coincidence that we upped the minimum wage and we are not at significantly higher unemployment. Im not saying it was all caused by the minimum wage in and of itself, but it was definitely a factor.

When you artificially increase the cost of labor, you get less of it.

As of the end of Feb., the jobs were increased by 250,000, and the stock market has been closing at record highs for the past week.

Unemployment is right now at 7.7 percent. A bit lower than what it was when Jr. left office.

 

[The Rabbi]

How many people will be grateful for losing their jobs because of it?

It's not exactly a coincidence that we upped the minimum wage and we are not at significantly higher unemployment. Im not saying it was all caused by the minimum wage in and of itself, but it was definitely a factor.

When you artificially increase the cost of labor, you get less of it.

As of the end of Feb., the jobs were increased by 250,000, and the stock market has been closing at record highs for the past week.

Unemployment is right now at 7.7 percent. A bit lower than what it was when Jr. left office.

Cherry pick much, Mr Greasegunenemized?

 

[Dragonlady]

People get paid what they're worth. Which is why you earn zero.

This is a complete fallacy. When the North American Free Trade Agreement was signed, one of our friends was working in a market segment that was a growth industry in Canada at the time. He was making double the minimum wage, which was $7 per hour, and his company was expanding into larger premises. He was being trained for one of the installation jobs which paid $20 per hour.

When NAFTA came in, all manufacturing in that sector left Canada. Our friends' company had picked the wrong time to expand manufacturing and went out of business. What few jobs remained in his sector, were paying minimum wage because the employment market was gutted with other sector workers who had lost their jobs, and overnight the owners could now pay half of what they were paying paying only months before for the same work.

This story is not unique. When there are lots of people desperate for work, you take what they offer you. That's why unions exist at all, because all of the power rests with the employer, and the employee is not in a position to say no.

 

[ABikerSailor]

How many people will be grateful for losing their jobs because of it?

It's not exactly a coincidence that we upped the minimum wage and we are not at significantly higher unemployment. Im not saying it was all caused by the minimum wage in and of itself, but it was definitely a factor.

When you artificially increase the cost of labor, you get less of it.

As of the end of Feb., the jobs were increased by 250,000, and the stock market has been closing at record highs for the past week.

Unemployment is right now at 7.7 percent. A bit lower than what it was when Jr. left office.

Cherry pick much, Mr Greasegunenemized?

Go ahead Rabbid Blowjob, it's already a fact.

What do you have that proves the economy is tanking?

 

[The Rabbi]

As of the end of Feb., the jobs were increased by 250,000, and the stock market has been closing at record highs for the past week.

Unemployment is right now at 7.7 percent. A bit lower than what it was when Jr. left office.

Cherry pick much, Mr Greasegunenemized?

Go ahead Rabbid Blowjob, it's already a fact.

What do you have that proves the economy is tanking?

Hmm declining GDP, debt crisis, soaring energy costs, lowest workforce participation rate since the early 80s. You name it.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Cherry pick much, Mr Greasegunenemized?

Go ahead Rabbid Blowjob, it's already a fact.

What do you have that proves the economy is tanking?

Hmm declining GDP, debt crisis, soaring energy costs, lowest workforce participation rate since the early 80s. You name it.

Yeah...............sure................and the IMF has said that the U.S. has increased their economy by 2 percent, while those in the European Union have decreased by a half percent (0.5).

If we truly want to be like Europe and become socialist (as some GOP members have said), then we need to cut entitlements and impose austerity measures.

If we want to continue like the U.S. (and grow the economy), we should continue with what Obama has laid out and grow by another 2.0 percent (what we did last year).

You really wanna make us like Europe? Follow the plans of the GOP and implement austerity measures.

You really wanna grow the U.S. economy? Let Obama continue with his programs.

 

[Dragonlady]

Hmm declining GDP, debt crisis, soaring energy costs, lowest workforce participation rate since the early 80s. You name it.

The GDP is NOT declining. See chart below. It declined the first two years Obama was in office because unemployment continued to rise as a result of the Bush policies, for a long period of time after Obama took office, but GDP is now rising steadily.

United States GNP Chart

There is no debt crisis. This is a manufactured crisis that the right wing has come up with as the excuse to cut social programs. The deficit is a problem, but with increased revenues, and reduced spending on social programs due to raising the minimum wage, and the wars overseas are now ending so the deficit should come down substantially starting this year.

Soaring energy costs are the fault of big oil companies. The government has nothing to do with the price of oil, that's a free market issue.

No, YOU name it because the stock market is up, housing prices are up, employment is up, GDP is up, the government is shrinking, and so is the deficit. That's why Fox News is now predicting the complete collapse of the US economy.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Nothing "Apparent" about it, in fact the math is pretty simple:

Hire 2 janitors for $9/hr and pay $18/hr

Hire one janitor for $17/hr, save $1.00 per hour, and get a quality employee who is well paid, and loyal.

If anything is tragic about this, its the astonishing difficulty you have grasping even the simplest logic.

Acrually the "simplest logic" will kick in as soon as it dawns on you that you need two janitors.... and that you've been paying them too little. It's called "reality check". Changing one of the factors in the equation (the number of janitors) is nothing more than a moving-the-goalposts fallacy.

By the previous logic, you would drive to the gas station and expect to fill up your Buick for $2.50. Because dammit, that's what you filled up for in 1966. And to follow your single-janitor theory, the solution to the gallon price going up would be to buy half as much gas. Think about it.

Currency value changes; that's just the reality. You can't accept the price of everything else going up and then suddenly put up a stop sign when it comes to human labor -- which is by nature always the last one to follow suit, which it must, to keep up. That's uh, what COLA means.

I'll just put this out again until it sinks in. When a 16-year-old high school kid entered the work force in 1968 the MW was $1.25 an hour. In 2013 dollars that value is equal to $8.27. The current MW is $7.25. Which means a 16-year old kid taking the same job would be making, all together now.... LESS than the 1968 kid did for the same work. Do the freaking math already; this is not rocket surgery.

Lots of issues have arguable opposite sides. This is not one of them. There is no argument for allowing wages to deteriorate. None. Unless you're willing to work for 13 cents a day on principle. Rotsa ruck with that.

How is paying one janitor $17/hr rather than two janitors $18/hr "allowing wages to deteriorate?"

Try to keep up: If the MW is $9/hr, then a guy making $17/hr is making MUCH more than the MW.

Hope I didn't go to fast for you, sparky.

I'll also give you a little clue: No one "needs" two janitors. What's needed are janitorial services. If ONE well paid janitor can provide the services of two or three entry level janitors, and SAVE MONEY, then that's what will happen.

If it takes 16 or 24 hours of janitorial services to do the job paying one janitor twice the rate won't alter the elapsed time it takes to get the job done without a corresponding productivity increase. To achieve your desired productivity increase you are going to have to invest in expensive equipment upgrades which will also incur their own maintenance costs.

The reality here is that underpaying your janitors is the same thing as raising your own taxes. Even janitors need healthcare and if you don't provide it then the state does and you have to pay for those state medical services in the form of higher taxes. The same applies to foodstamps, subsidized rent, etc, etc. If you want to have lower taxes you need to pay living wages to everyone regardless of whether they are working at the menial level or the managerial level.

A good manager takes a holistic view of not only their own business but also the society in which it operates. Underpaying the cost of living will damage the local economy and ultimately harm the corporation when skilled labor no longer wants to live and work in the area. Parasitic corporations have done a lot of damage to America by focusing only on the short term bottom line.

The concept of a "good corporate citizen" means understanding that the surrounding society needs to thrive just as much as the business does since each depends upon the other for long term survival.