Debate Now Prove your case! Is Homosexuality genetic or a choice?

[Luddly Neddite]

It's behavioral.

I agree.

So you, Boss and others who agree its behavioral ...

Every morning, do you get out of bed and decide to be heterosexual?

Or, did you just decide once and that's good for life? Do you think you might change your mind and decide to be gay?

If you're gay, when did you decide to be gay?

For both gays and straights, what were your reasons for deciding your sexual identity?



There's more evidence that its genetic than it being a choice but the bottom line is still the same -

Its no one's business.

If one hates gays because it threatens their own sexual identity or they think its icky or they believe there is some religious taboo, then don't decide to be gay that day and decide to be gay the next day. Sure. Why not? If its a choice, then you can alternate if you want.

But, if what (editorial) "you" do is with another consenting adult, (editorial) "your" sexual choice is none of my business. Who you choose to marry is none of my business. What you're doing in your bedroom is none of my business.

If any of you believe your sexual identity and sexual activities are my business, why do you believe that?

 

[Luddly Neddite]

By definition, hetero sex would not be pleasurable for a homosexual. If it is, then his sexual orientation is a choice.

You are incorrect.

Ask any straight who engages in consensual sex in prison with one of the same sex but never does again.

For some people, sex is only for procreation but for most people, it is the intimacy and joy of a very deep and satisfying connection, on many levels, that drive people's need for sex.

Ernie - I ask you same questions I asked in my post, #261 ...

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed.

I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible link where homosexuals lose their reproductive abilities when they have sex with the opposite sex. And, also, tell us how you are able to tell whether a person is being honest or dishonest, especially when you don't even know who they are.

I never claimed that. What I said was gay men don't breed with lesbian women.
You would need both parents to pass on a mythical gay gene to have a gay kid. Homosexual reproduction is so rare that genetic gays would become extinct in 10 or 12 generations.

Ernie

You are assuming that gays give birth to gays which is simply untrue.

Those of you who believe gays do not or cannot reproduce and that would inevitably result in their own extinction are completely ignoring the fact that your own opinion means homosexuality should have occurred in the first place.

Simply put, it is heterosexuals who produce homosexuals.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed.

I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible link where homosexuals lose their reproductive abilities when they have sex with the opposite sex. And, also, tell us how you are able to tell whether a person is being honest or dishonest, especially when you don't even know who they are.

I never claimed that. What I said was gay men don't breed with lesbian women.
You would need both parents to pass on a mythical gay gene to have a gay kid. Homosexual reproduction is so rare that genetic gays would become extinct in 10 or 12 generations.

Ernie

You are assuming that gays give birth to gays which is simply untrue.

Those of you who believe gays do not or cannot reproduce and that would inevitably result in their own extinction are completely ignoring the fact that your own opinion means homosexuality should have occurred in the first place.

Simply put, it is heterosexuals who produce homosexuals.

And the procreation case often used against gays could also be used against us straights. Not all straight married couples have kids. Therefore, using Ernie's logic, any straight people who have not produced children cannot really be straight, right?

Oh, what a slippery slope...

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed.

I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible link where homosexuals lose their reproductive abilities when they have sex with the opposite sex. And, also, tell us how you are able to tell whether a person is being honest or dishonest, especially when you don't even know who they are.

I never claimed that. What I said was gay men don't breed with lesbian women.
You would need both parents to pass on a mythical gay gene to have a gay kid. Homosexual reproduction is so rare that genetic gays would become extinct in 10 or 12 generations.

Ernie

You are assuming that gays give birth to gays which is simply untrue.

Those of you who believe gays do not or cannot reproduce and that would inevitably result in their own extinction are completely ignoring the fact that your own opinion means homosexuality should have occurred in the first place.

Simply put, it is heterosexuals who produce homosexuals.

And the procreation case often used against gays could also be used against us straights. Not all straight married couples have kids. Therefore, using Ernie's logic, any straight people who have not produced children cannot really be straight, right?

Oh, what a slippery slope...

Should straights who produce gay children be punished?

If it were possible to identify homosexuality in utero, would homophobes want those fetuses aborted?

 

[Syriusly]

How so? What medical advances?

Surrogate birthing, In Vitro Fertilization. Without those two things, the homosexual genotype would be excised from the species through the evolutionary process

How do those things excise homosexuality?

They don't. I'm merely saying that without those workarounds, they would be unable to breed with each other.

Historically they have reproduced anyways.

Women have rarely had the option to decide whether or not to have sex with a man- that option in the United States has only existed fully in the United States since the 1960's- law or social pressures ensured most women ended up having sex with men regardless of their sexual preference.

Men had somewhat more freedom- but even then homosexuals were expected to have children- and did- marrying, producing the necessary children.

So until recently, there was no impediment to passing on genes by homosexuals. Now? again- now there is no impediment either.

 

[Ernie S.]

Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed.

I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible link where homosexuals lose their reproductive abilities when they have sex with the opposite sex. And, also, tell us how you are able to tell whether a person is being honest or dishonest, especially when you don't even know who they are.

I never claimed that. What I said was gay men don't breed with lesbian women.
You would need both parents to pass on a mythical gay gene to have a gay kid. Homosexual reproduction is so rare that genetic gays would become extinct in 10 or 12 generations.

Ernie

You are assuming that gays give birth to gays which is simply untrue.

Those of you who believe gays do not or cannot reproduce and that would inevitably result in their own extinction are completely ignoring the fact that your own opinion means homosexuality should have occurred in the first place.

Simply put, it is heterosexuals who produce homosexuals.

And the procreation case often used against gays could also be used against us straights. Not all straight married couples have kids. Therefore, using Ernie's logic, any straight people who have not produced children cannot really be straight, right?

Oh, what a slippery slope...

Fuzzy logic.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed.

I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible link where homosexuals lose their reproductive abilities when they have sex with the opposite sex. And, also, tell us how you are able to tell whether a person is being honest or dishonest, especially when you don't even know who they are.

I never claimed that. What I said was gay men don't breed with lesbian women.
You would need both parents to pass on a mythical gay gene to have a gay kid. Homosexual reproduction is so rare that genetic gays would become extinct in 10 or 12 generations.

Ernie

You are assuming that gays give birth to gays which is simply untrue.

Those of you who believe gays do not or cannot reproduce and that would inevitably result in their own extinction are completely ignoring the fact that your own opinion means homosexuality should have occurred in the first place.

Simply put, it is heterosexuals who produce homosexuals.

And the procreation case often used against gays could also be used against us straights. Not all straight married couples have kids. Therefore, using Ernie's logic, any straight people who have not produced children cannot really be straight, right?

Oh, what a slippery slope...

Fuzzy logic.

Just like yours.

 

[Syriusly]

You have no proof that they were heterosexual at any time. They don't choose to be hetero, they pretend to be to keep from being demeaned, hated, ostracized by people that don't know any better.

What is that supposed to mean? You need to read the rules of the OP, if you are trying to be insulting, the OP should tell you that it is not allowed. Of course, if you can't prove your point, perhaps that is your only recourse.

For Christ's sake! If they bred they had heterosexual sex. What the fuck is so hard to grasp?
That is supposed to mean exactly what is means.
Sorry TK. Stupid people frustrate me.

What is so hard to understand about the fact that homosexuals can and do participate in heterosexual sex for the purpose of breeding?

Because it would in fact mean they are NOT homosexual.

Huh?

If homosexuals participate in heterosexual sex, there is reason to assume they are in fact not homosexual.

No it really isn't.

Men and women are both capable of having sex with partners that they are not really attracted to- alcohol can help with that.

And historically this is what often happened, for women less by choice, by men in order to produce heirs/children to support them.

 

[Syriusly]

These studies could not conclude that homosexuality was genetic.

Again, homosexual is behavioral. Behavioral attributes are often influenced by genetics and many other factors. That's not to say we have a homosexual gene. Everyone has a mixture of masculine and feminine genetic attributes. Those play a role in what we emotionally find stimulating, but our psyche plays a role as well. Social stigmas and taboos play a role. Self-esteem plays a role... LOTS of things factor into whether an individual decides to engage in a homosexual act.

So it is no surprise that studies can't find it to be genetic. It's behavioral.

All sexual activity is behavioral.

And behavioral does not necessarily mean choice.

I have seen no evidence that a person can choose who to be sexually attracted to.
I know that persons can chose who to have sex with.

Like I said in my first post- there are many other possibilities other than 'genetics' or 'choice'- and I suspect it is one of the alternatives- or perhaps a combination. of them.

 

[Syriusly]

Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed.

I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible link where homosexuals lose their reproductive abilities when they have sex with the opposite sex. And, also, tell us how you are able to tell whether a person is being honest or dishonest, especially when you don't even know who they are.

I never claimed that. What I said was gay men don't breed with lesbian women.
You would need both parents to pass on a mythical gay gene to have a gay kid. Homosexual reproduction is so rare that genetic gays would become extinct in 10 or 12 generations.

No- that is not necessarily correct.

IF there were genes- the ones that made a woman attracted to her own gender, might be completely different than the gene that makes a man attracted to his own gender.

And if there were genes, the genes could be recessive- so that heterosexuals could carry the gene but only when two recessives mixed they would be expressed.

All that said- I am not convinced that it is genetic.

So far it appears to me to be more like 'handedness' - we have no evidence that 'handedness' is genetic, but it occurs at a regular rate among humans- so there must be an alternative mechanism.

 

[RKMBrown]

These studies could not conclude that homosexuality was genetic.

Again, homosexual is behavioral. Behavioral attributes are often influenced by genetics and many other factors. That's not to say we have a homosexual gene. Everyone has a mixture of masculine and feminine genetic attributes. Those play a role in what we emotionally find stimulating, but our psyche plays a role as well. Social stigmas and taboos play a role. Self-esteem plays a role... LOTS of things factor into whether an individual decides to engage in a homosexual act.

So it is no surprise that studies can't find it to be genetic. It's behavioral.

Yes, but as you said ... behavior can also be based, at least in part on genetics. So it's not black and white as to whether the behavior is instinctive or learned.

 

[Ernie S.]

Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed.

I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible link where homosexuals lose their reproductive abilities when they have sex with the opposite sex. And, also, tell us how you are able to tell whether a person is being honest or dishonest, especially when you don't even know who they are.

I never claimed that. What I said was gay men don't breed with lesbian women.
You would need both parents to pass on a mythical gay gene to have a gay kid. Homosexual reproduction is so rare that genetic gays would become extinct in 10 or 12 generations.

No- that is not necessarily correct.

IF there were genes- the ones that made a woman attracted to her own gender, might be completely different than the gene that makes a man attracted to his own gender.

And if there were genes, the genes could be recessive- so that heterosexuals could carry the gene but only when two recessives mixed they would be expressed.

All that said- I am not convinced that it is genetic.

So far it appears to me to be more like 'handedness' - we have no evidence that 'handedness' is genetic, but it occurs at a regular rate among humans- so there must be an alternative mechanism.

We do have evidence that handedness is genetic, likely polygenic.

Genetic factors
Handedness displays a complex inheritance pattern. For example, if both parents of a child are left-handed, there is a 26% chance of that child being left-handed. A large study of twins from 25,732 families by Medland et al. (2006) has indicated that the heritability of handedness is roughly 24%.

To date, two theoretical single gene models have been proposed to explain the patterns of inheritance of handedness, the first by Marian Annett of the University of Leicester and the second by Professor Chris McManus of UCL.

However, the growing weight of evidence from linkage and genome-wide association studies suggests that genetic variance in handedness cannot be explained by a single genetic locus. From these studies Chris McManus et al. now conclude that handedness is polygenic and estimate that at least 40 loci contribute to determining this trait.

Brandler et al. performed a genome-wide association study for a measure of relative hand skill and found that genes involved in the determination of left/right asymmetry in the body play a key role in determining handedness. These results suggests the same mechanisms that determine left/right asymmetry in the body (e.g. NODAL signaling and ciliogenesis) also play a role in the development of brain asymmetry (handedness is an outward reflection of brain asymmetry for motor function).

 

[Syriusly]

Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed.

I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible link where homosexuals lose their reproductive abilities when they have sex with the opposite sex. And, also, tell us how you are able to tell whether a person is being honest or dishonest, especially when you don't even know who they are.

I never claimed that. What I said was gay men don't breed with lesbian women.
You would need both parents to pass on a mythical gay gene to have a gay kid. Homosexual reproduction is so rare that genetic gays would become extinct in 10 or 12 generations.

No- that is not necessarily correct.

IF there were genes- the ones that made a woman attracted to her own gender, might be completely different than the gene that makes a man attracted to his own gender.

And if there were genes, the genes could be recessive- so that heterosexuals could carry the gene but only when two recessives mixed they would be expressed.

All that said- I am not convinced that it is genetic.

So far it appears to me to be more like 'handedness' - we have no evidence that 'handedness' is genetic, but it occurs at a regular rate among humans- so there must be an alternative mechanism.

We do have evidence that handedness is genetic, likely polygenic.

Genetic factors
Handedness displays a complex inheritance pattern. For example, if both parents of a child are left-handed, there is a 26% chance of that child being left-handed. A large study of twins from 25,732 families by Medland et al. (2006) has indicated that the heritability of handedness is roughly 24%.

To date, two theoretical single gene models have been proposed to explain the patterns of inheritance of handedness, the first by Marian Annett of the University of Leicester and the second by Professor Chris McManus of UCL.

However, the growing weight of evidence from linkage and genome-wide association studies suggests that genetic variance in handedness cannot be explained by a single genetic locus. From these studies Chris McManus et al. now conclude that handedness is polygenic and estimate that at least 40 loci contribute to determining this trait.

Brandler et al. performed a genome-wide association study for a measure of relative hand skill and found that genes involved in the determination of left/right asymmetry in the body play a key role in determining handedness. These results suggests the same mechanisms that determine left/right asymmetry in the body (e.g. NODAL signaling and ciliogenesis) also play a role in the development of brain asymmetry (handedness is an outward reflection of brain asymmetry for motor function).

Thank you- I hadn't seen that- but as the same article mentioned- there are other theories but that one seems intuitively likely.

A quick perusal of the terms 'polygenic' and homosexual shows that there are studies making some of the same kinds of connections.

I will have to read up more on polygenics- I find genetics fascinating but incredibly dense reading.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Having non competing males available to defend against predators and non reproducing females to care for orphans are positive survival traits.

Isn't that what I said?

No, this is what you actually said.

This also goes on to prove the point that homosexuality is not conducive to reproduction in the human species, further proving that it is a genetic anomaly.

It helps if you include all of the quotes then it is easier to follow what is being posted.

 

[Mertex]

Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed.

I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible link where homosexuals lose their reproductive abilities when they have sex with the opposite sex. And, also, tell us how you are able to tell whether a person is being honest or dishonest, especially when you don't even know who they are.

I never claimed that. What I said was gay men don't breed with lesbian women.
You would need both parents to pass on a mythical gay gene to have a gay kid. Homosexual reproduction is so rare that genetic gays would become extinct in 10 or 12 generations.

Ernie

You are assuming that gays give birth to gays which is simply untrue.

Those of you who believe gays do not or cannot reproduce and that would inevitably result in their own extinction are completely ignoring the fact that your own opinion means homosexuality should have occurred in the first place.

Simply put, it is heterosexuals who produce homosexuals.

And the procreation case often used against gays could also be used against us straights. Not all straight married couples have kids. Therefore, using Ernie's logic, any straight people who have not produced children cannot really be straight, right?

Oh, what a slippery slope...

Not to mention how many homosexual males contribute sperm to sperm banks? This is going to blow the minds of the ones who keep insisting that "gays cannot breed".

Certain sperm banks may offer more “open-donor” selection, for example, or may cater to gay and lesbian families specifically by gathering more gay male donor sperm. - See more at:
Sperm Banks for Lesbians It s Conceivable

A recruitment drive aimed at gay men has contributed to a significant reduction in the waiting times for Australian women seeking a sperm donor in their bid to have a baby, according to a leading IVF specialist.
Gay Men Easing Sperm Donor Shortage Says IVF Specialist

 

[Mertex]

How so? What medical advances?

Surrogate birthing, In Vitro Fertilization. Without those two things, the homosexual genotype would be excised from the species through the evolutionary process

How do those things excise homosexuality?

Because, if homosexuality were genetic, it would take 2 people with the "gay" gene to produce a slim chance of a genetically gay child.
Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed. Over time, the chances of 2 people with the gay gene mating would diminish to near zero.
IF gays do engage in heterosexual relations, their sexual orientation is a choice.

Who made that rule? Are you absolutely positive that no gay male has ever tried to have sex with a woman to see if he may just be confused? Post some links backing up that statement, because I don't believe that you can absolutely say that gay men will never have sex with a woman. There is no way on earth that anyone could ever prove that, it's just something that you envision.

Where do you come up with such stringent ideas? You have no control over whether a gay male will have sex with a woman for whatever reason.

I don't know if it is genetic or whether their orientation happens due to some extraneous cause during their formation in the womb (like an illness to the mother - measles) or an intake of some medicine by the mother, but apparently there was enough belief that it is genetic that caused the FDA to come up with rules against homosexual males donating sperm.

NEW YORK — To the dismay of gay-rights activists, the Food and Drug Administration is about to implement new rules recommending that any man who has engaged in homosexual sex in the previous five years be barred from serving as an anonymous sperm donor.
FDA set to ban gay men as sperm donors - Health - Men s health NBC News

 

[Mertex]

Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed.

I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible link where homosexuals lose their reproductive abilities when they have sex with the opposite sex. And, also, tell us how you are able to tell whether a person is being honest or dishonest, especially when you don't even know who they are.

I never claimed that. What I said was gay men don't breed with lesbian women.
You would need both parents to pass on a mythical gay gene to have a gay kid. Homosexual reproduction is so rare that genetic gays would become extinct in 10 or 12 generations.

Ernie

You are assuming that gays give birth to gays which is simply untrue.

Those of you who believe gays do not or cannot reproduce and that would inevitably result in their own extinction are completely ignoring the fact that your own opinion means homosexuality should have occurred in the first place.

Simply put, it is heterosexuals who produce homosexuals.

And the procreation case often used against gays could also be used against us straights. Not all straight married couples have kids. Therefore, using Ernie's logic, any straight people who have not produced children cannot really be straight, right?

Oh, what a slippery slope...

Should straights who produce gay children be punished?

If it were possible to identify homosexuality in utero, would homophobes want those fetuses aborted?

Now that is a dilemma, I bet none of the ones that believe it is a choice will respond to it, except maybe those that are pro-choice, yet homophobic....seems unlikely....

 

[sealybobo]

Except with TK's modern options, real, honest homosexuals cannot breed.

I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible link where homosexuals lose their reproductive abilities when they have sex with the opposite sex. And, also, tell us how you are able to tell whether a person is being honest or dishonest, especially when you don't even know who they are.

I never claimed that. What I said was gay men don't breed with lesbian women.
You would need both parents to pass on a mythical gay gene to have a gay kid. Homosexual reproduction is so rare that genetic gays would become extinct in 10 or 12 generations.

Ernie

You are assuming that gays give birth to gays which is simply untrue.

Those of you who believe gays do not or cannot reproduce and that would inevitably result in their own extinction are completely ignoring the fact that your own opinion means homosexuality should have occurred in the first place.

Simply put, it is heterosexuals who produce homosexuals.

And the procreation case often used against gays could also be used against us straights. Not all straight married couples have kids. Therefore, using Ernie's logic, any straight people who have not produced children cannot really be straight, right?

Oh, what a slippery slope...

Not to mention how many homosexual males contribute sperm to sperm banks? This is going to blow the minds of the ones who keep insisting that "gays cannot breed".

Certain sperm banks may offer more “open-donor” selection, for example, or may cater to gay and lesbian families specifically by gathering more gay male donor sperm. - See more at:
Sperm Banks for Lesbians It s Conceivable

A recruitment drive aimed at gay men has contributed to a significant reduction in the waiting times for Australian women seeking a sperm donor in their bid to have a baby, according to a leading IVF specialist.
Gay Men Easing Sperm Donor Shortage Says IVF Specialist

Does it even matter? Seems to me straight couple have gay babies all the time. I'm assuming the number of gays having babies is negligible.

 

[Mertex]

I'm still waiting for you to provide some credible link where homosexuals lose their reproductive abilities when they have sex with the opposite sex. And, also, tell us how you are able to tell whether a person is being honest or dishonest, especially when you don't even know who they are.

I never claimed that. What I said was gay men don't breed with lesbian women.
You would need both parents to pass on a mythical gay gene to have a gay kid. Homosexual reproduction is so rare that genetic gays would become extinct in 10 or 12 generations.

Ernie

You are assuming that gays give birth to gays which is simply untrue.

Those of you who believe gays do not or cannot reproduce and that would inevitably result in their own extinction are completely ignoring the fact that your own opinion means homosexuality should have occurred in the first place.

Simply put, it is heterosexuals who produce homosexuals.

And the procreation case often used against gays could also be used against us straights. Not all straight married couples have kids. Therefore, using Ernie's logic, any straight people who have not produced children cannot really be straight, right?

Oh, what a slippery slope...

Not to mention how many homosexual males contribute sperm to sperm banks? This is going to blow the minds of the ones who keep insisting that "gays cannot breed".

Certain sperm banks may offer more “open-donor” selection, for example, or may cater to gay and lesbian families specifically by gathering more gay male donor sperm. - See more at:
Sperm Banks for Lesbians It s Conceivable

A recruitment drive aimed at gay men has contributed to a significant reduction in the waiting times for Australian women seeking a sperm donor in their bid to have a baby, according to a leading IVF specialist.
Gay Men Easing Sperm Donor Shortage Says IVF Specialist

Does it even matter? Seems to me straight couple have gay babies all the time. I'm assuming the number of gays having babies is negligible.

It doesn't matter to me....I'm just providing links and articles that debunk the idea that male homosexuals are incapable of breeding....