Putin once again picking up the disaster left behind by Obama

[Camp]

What's with you Camp?

Now I have a stake in the game. Google Sundown Manitoba. I'm Uk/Irish but look where I live. I am literally between Saint Peter and Saint Paul. On dial up so its hell on earth to try to give you pictures of grave sites in Kirkland Lake to prove my lineage.



I have family in the Ukraine. Putin isn't the bad guy here.

So what's with you?

Why are you so enamored with Kiev? I've proven over and over and over that Kiev is Bandera. Nazis. This is real.

Why would you love and adore any government in the Ukraine that worships Bandera?

You shouldn't mistake Camp's anti Russian (Putin) rhetoric as being necessarily pro Kiev.

As for Bandera being a Nazi, you should properly examine Camp's posts on the subject with an open mind. Bandera shared a Fascist ideology with the Nazis, that didn't necessarily make him a Nazi. Bandera was perhaps the first Neo-Nazi though, which would be a better description of the scum infesting Kiev these days. A small but relevant distinction.

Ironically, while promoting her Ukrainian ancestry and living in a small isolated Ukrainian community in Canada, the biggest financial contributions to the neo Nazi factions in western Ukraine come from the majority and much larger Ukrainian communities in Canada. Her ideas and spins are rejected by Ukrainians in Ukraine and by Canadian Ukrainians alike. Unlike TD, they realize and understand that Banderas was in a Nazi concentration camp when OUN was committing the atrocities she highlights and attributes to him. His legacy and the movement that honors him can be viewed as Nationalistic as can most neo Nazi's of Europe today.

For crying out loud why are you lying about Bandera? It makes no sense to me. And yes I have chosen to live in rural Manitoba now but I know who all the fucking players are.

I've made a point of focusing on the Canadian Bandera faction. I'm going to make sure that they are all exposed.

He was a fucking Nazi collaborater. Of that there is no doubt.

Or do you wish to argue with all who condemned the award? Like Jews. Like Poles.

Go ahead Camp. Tell the Simon Wiesenthal Centre that they are idiots and fools.

"The Simon Wiesenthal centre also expressed outrage, saying Bandera was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews."

Hero one day, but not the next: Stepan Bandera debate flares

What lie have I told about Bandera? I have not defended him, unless you consider relaying factual data as defending, nor have I denied his eventual alliance with the Nazi's. I have merely pointed out that he spent time in a Nazi concentration camp and most of the OUN atrocities and crimes were committed while he was imprisoned during that period.
You simply do not know or recognize that Bandera is known for his Cold War warrior status and fight against USSR occupation of his region in Ukraine during almost the entire period from the end of WWII until his murder by the KGB in 1959. His hero award was rejected by the majority of of Ukrainians and in fact rescinded. The people who support him are from the region of Ukraine where he, and the President of Ukraine who awarded him the hero status both came from. President Yushenko gave him the award before he left office, after being poisoned by the KGB. People remember him as the President who was poisoned with dioxon that failed to kill him, but left him with a horrible facial disfigurement. His naming of Bandera as a hero was an insult to Russia.
Finally, why does your community have a memorial to Bucovina. It is a beautiful area. I have been to the northern part. Lovely villages in valley settings with forested mountains and hills. The area has more of a Romanian flavor and heritage than a Ukrainian one. The worst WWII atrocities of that area were committed by USSR and Romanians. Do you know of an incident that involved OUN that took place there?

 

[tinydancer]

What's with you Camp?

Now I have a stake in the game. Google Sundown Manitoba. I'm Uk/Irish but look where I live. I am literally between Saint Peter and Saint Paul. On dial up so its hell on earth to try to give you pictures of grave sites in Kirkland Lake to prove my lineage.



I have family in the Ukraine. Putin isn't the bad guy here.

So what's with you?

Why are you so enamored with Kiev? I've proven over and over and over that Kiev is Bandera. Nazis. This is real.

Why would you love and adore any government in the Ukraine that worships Bandera?

You shouldn't mistake Camp's anti Russian (Putin) rhetoric as being necessarily pro Kiev.

As for Bandera being a Nazi, you should properly examine Camp's posts on the subject with an open mind. Bandera shared a Fascist ideology with the Nazis, that didn't necessarily make him a Nazi. Bandera was perhaps the first Neo-Nazi though, which would be a better description of the scum infesting Kiev these days. A small but relevant distinction.

Ironically, while promoting her Ukrainian ancestry and living in a small isolated Ukrainian community in Canada, the biggest financial contributions to the neo Nazi factions in western Ukraine come from the majority and much larger Ukrainian communities in Canada. Her ideas and spins are rejected by Ukrainians in Ukraine and by Canadian Ukrainians alike. Unlike TD, they realize and understand that Banderas was in a Nazi concentration camp when OUN was committing the atrocities she highlights and attributes to him. His legacy and the movement that honors him can be viewed as Nationalistic as can most neo Nazi's of Europe today.

For crying out loud why are you lying about Bandera? It makes no sense to me. And yes I have chosen to live in rural Manitoba now but I know who all the fucking players are.

I've made a point of focusing on the Canadian Bandera faction. I'm going to make sure that they are all exposed.

He was a fucking Nazi collaborater. Of that there is no doubt.

Or do you wish to argue with all who condemned the award? Like Jews. Like Poles.

Go ahead Camp. Tell the Simon Wiesenthal Centre that they are idiots and fools.

"The Simon Wiesenthal centre also expressed outrage, saying Bandera was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews."

Hero one day, but not the next: Stepan Bandera debate flares

What lie have I told about Bandera? I have not defended him, unless you consider relaying factual data as defending, nor have I denied his eventual alliance with the Nazi's. I have merely pointed out that he spent time in a Nazi concentration camp and most of the OUN atrocities and crimes were committed while he was imprisoned during that period.
You simply do not know or recognize that Bandera is known for his Cold War warrior status and fight against USSR occupation of his region in Ukraine during almost the entire period from the end of WWII until his murder by the KGB in 1959. His hero award was rejected by the majority of of Ukrainians and in fact rescinded. The people who support him are from the region of Ukraine where he, and the President of Ukraine who awarded him the hero status both came from. President Yushenko gave him the award before he left office, after being poisoned by the KGB. People remember him as the President who was poisoned with dioxon that failed to kill him, but left him with a horrible facial disfigurement. His naming of Bandera as a hero was an insult to Russia.
Finally, why does your community have a memorial to Bucovina. It is a beautiful area. I have been to the northern part. Lovely villages in valley settings with forested mountains and hills. The area has more of a Romanian flavor and heritage than a Ukrainian one. The worst WWII atrocities of that area were committed by USSR and Romanians. Do you know of an incident that involved OUN that took place there?

Here's where we go into a grey zone. It's not that I wanted to ever find out what we did. But being thrust in the middle of this now with Harper et al backing the new government in Kiev AND being such a politico I stumbled upon facts that had my hair standing on end.

Lviv.

Now we should come to terms with this. And it's not that we have to beat up ourselves daily. I'm married to a German by the way. How's that for a spanner in the works?

Even though it is so sad what we did. Unless we confront what we did. Unless we recognize our part and wrestle this to the ground we cannot help the new Ukraine.

Oh the memorial to Bukovina is just at a crossroads up the road from me where I work my coonhound. I literally fell into it. My young hound is very strong. I took a header and found the monument that someone put up there.

It's not fancy. It's been obviously covered in moss for years on end. It was wonderous when I found it though. Mud and all.

 

[Richard-H]

What's with you Camp?

Now I have a stake in the game. Google Sundown Manitoba. I'm Uk/Irish but look where I live. I am literally between Saint Peter and Saint Paul. On dial up so its hell on earth to try to give you pictures of grave sites in Kirkland Lake to prove my lineage.



I have family in the Ukraine. Putin isn't the bad guy here.

So what's with you?

Why are you so enamored with Kiev? I've proven over and over and over that Kiev is Bandera. Nazis. This is real.

Why would you love and adore any government in the Ukraine that worships Bandera?

You shouldn't mistake Camp's anti Russian (Putin) rhetoric as being necessarily pro Kiev.

As for Bandera being a Nazi, you should properly examine Camp's posts on the subject with an open mind. Bandera shared a Fascist ideology with the Nazis, that didn't necessarily make him a Nazi. Bandera was perhaps the first Neo-Nazi though, which would be a better description of the scum infesting Kiev these days. A small but relevant distinction.

Ironically, while promoting her Ukrainian ancestry and living in a small isolated Ukrainian community in Canada, the biggest financial contributions to the neo Nazi factions in western Ukraine come from the majority and much larger Ukrainian communities in Canada. Her ideas and spins are rejected by Ukrainians in Ukraine and by Canadian Ukrainians alike. Unlike TD, they realize and understand that Banderas was in a Nazi concentration camp when OUN was committing the atrocities she highlights and attributes to him. His legacy and the movement that honors him can be viewed as Nationalistic as can most neo Nazi's of Europe today.

For crying out loud why are you lying about Bandera? It makes no sense to me. And yes I have chosen to live in rural Manitoba now but I know who all the fucking players are.

I've made a point of focusing on the Canadian Bandera faction. I'm going to make sure that they are all exposed.

He was a fucking Nazi collaborater. Of that there is no doubt.

Or do you wish to argue with all who condemned the award? Like Jews. Like Poles.

Go ahead Camp. Tell the Simon Wiesenthal Centre that they are idiots and fools.

"The Simon Wiesenthal centre also expressed outrage, saying Bandera was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews."

Hero one day, but not the next: Stepan Bandera debate flares

What lie have I told about Bandera? I have not defended him, unless you consider relaying factual data as defending, nor have I denied his eventual alliance with the Nazi's. I have merely pointed out that he spent time in a Nazi concentration camp and most of the OUN atrocities and crimes were committed while he was imprisoned during that period.
You simply do not know or recognize that Bandera is known for his Cold War warrior status and fight against USSR occupation of his region in Ukraine during almost the entire period from the end of WWII until his murder by the KGB in 1959. His hero award was rejected by the majority of of Ukrainians and in fact rescinded. The people who support him are from the region of Ukraine where he, and the President of Ukraine who awarded him the hero status both came from. President Yushenko gave him the award before he left office, after being poisoned by the KGB. People remember him as the President who was poisoned with dioxon that failed to kill him, but left him with a horrible facial disfigurement. His naming of Bandera as a hero was an insult to Russia.
Finally, why does your community have a memorial to Bucovina. It is a beautiful area. I have been to the northern part. Lovely villages in valley settings with forested mountains and hills. The area has more of a Romanian flavor and heritage than a Ukrainian one. The worst WWII atrocities of that area were committed by USSR and Romanians. Do you know of an incident that involved OUN that took place there?

Here's where we go into a grey zone. It's not that I wanted to ever find out what we did. But being thrust in the middle of this now with Harper et al backing the new government in Kiev AND being such a politico I stumbled upon facts that had my hair standing on end.

Lviv.

Now we should come to terms with this. And it's not that we have to beat up ourselves daily. I'm married to a German by the way. How's that for a spanner in the works?

Even though it is so sad what we did. Unless we confront what we did. Unless we recognize our part and wrestle this to the ground we cannot help the new Ukraine.

Oh the memorial to Bukovina is just at a crossroads up the road from me where I work my coonhound. I literally fell into it. My young hound is very strong. I took a header and found the monument that someone put up there.

It's not fancy. It's been obviously covered in moss for years on end. It was wonderous when I found it though. Mud and all.

I have a coonhound too! Great dog! Sweet nature, yet dignified. Just as long as your not a raccoon or skunk! Mine mutilated a skunk a few weeks ago...she knew exactly what she was doing...didn't get sprayed at all. Amazing dog!

Sorry off topic....

 

[Camp]

What's with you Camp?

Now I have a stake in the game. Google Sundown Manitoba. I'm Uk/Irish but look where I live. I am literally between Saint Peter and Saint Paul. On dial up so its hell on earth to try to give you pictures of grave sites in Kirkland Lake to prove my lineage.



I have family in the Ukraine. Putin isn't the bad guy here.

So what's with you?

Why are you so enamored with Kiev? I've proven over and over and over that Kiev is Bandera. Nazis. This is real.

Why would you love and adore any government in the Ukraine that worships Bandera?

You shouldn't mistake Camp's anti Russian (Putin) rhetoric as being necessarily pro Kiev.

As for Bandera being a Nazi, you should properly examine Camp's posts on the subject with an open mind. Bandera shared a Fascist ideology with the Nazis, that didn't necessarily make him a Nazi. Bandera was perhaps the first Neo-Nazi though, which would be a better description of the scum infesting Kiev these days. A small but relevant distinction.

Ironically, while promoting her Ukrainian ancestry and living in a small isolated Ukrainian community in Canada, the biggest financial contributions to the neo Nazi factions in western Ukraine come from the majority and much larger Ukrainian communities in Canada. Her ideas and spins are rejected by Ukrainians in Ukraine and by Canadian Ukrainians alike. Unlike TD, they realize and understand that Banderas was in a Nazi concentration camp when OUN was committing the atrocities she highlights and attributes to him. His legacy and the movement that honors him can be viewed as Nationalistic as can most neo Nazi's of Europe today.

For crying out loud why are you lying about Bandera? It makes no sense to me. And yes I have chosen to live in rural Manitoba now but I know who all the fucking players are.

I've made a point of focusing on the Canadian Bandera faction. I'm going to make sure that they are all exposed.

He was a fucking Nazi collaborater. Of that there is no doubt.

Or do you wish to argue with all who condemned the award? Like Jews. Like Poles.

Go ahead Camp. Tell the Simon Wiesenthal Centre that they are idiots and fools.

"The Simon Wiesenthal centre also expressed outrage, saying Bandera was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews."

Hero one day, but not the next: Stepan Bandera debate flares

What lie have I told about Bandera? I have not defended him, unless you consider relaying factual data as defending, nor have I denied his eventual alliance with the Nazi's. I have merely pointed out that he spent time in a Nazi concentration camp and most of the OUN atrocities and crimes were committed while he was imprisoned during that period.
You simply do not know or recognize that Bandera is known for his Cold War warrior status and fight against USSR occupation of his region in Ukraine during almost the entire period from the end of WWII until his murder by the KGB in 1959. His hero award was rejected by the majority of of Ukrainians and in fact rescinded. The people who support him are from the region of Ukraine where he, and the President of Ukraine who awarded him the hero status both came from. President Yushenko gave him the award before he left office, after being poisoned by the KGB. People remember him as the President who was poisoned with dioxon that failed to kill him, but left him with a horrible facial disfigurement. His naming of Bandera as a hero was an insult to Russia.
Finally, why does your community have a memorial to Bucovina. It is a beautiful area. I have been to the northern part. Lovely villages in valley settings with forested mountains and hills. The area has more of a Romanian flavor and heritage than a Ukrainian one. The worst WWII atrocities of that area were committed by USSR and Romanians. Do you know of an incident that involved OUN that took place there?

Here's where we go into a grey zone. It's not that I wanted to ever find out what we did. But being thrust in the middle of this now with Harper et al backing the new government in Kiev AND being such a politico I stumbled upon facts that had my hair standing on end.

Lviv.

Now we should come to terms with this. And it's not that we have to beat up ourselves daily. I'm married to a German by the way. How's that for a spanner in the works?

Even though it is so sad what we did. Unless we confront what we did. Unless we recognize our part and wrestle this to the ground we cannot help the new Ukraine.

Oh the memorial to Bukovina is just at a crossroads up the road from me where I work my coonhound. I literally fell into it. My young hound is very strong. I took a header and found the monument that someone put up there.

It's not fancy. It's been obviously covered in moss for years on end. It was wonderous when I found it though. Mud and all.

About the Memorial, you may want to look up the Massacre of Fantana Alba.

Many places in Eastern Europe collaborated with the Nazi's. Not sure you can even find an East European nation that didn't have significant numbers of collaborators. Romania and Hungary had huge influence and a mixed history with the region of western Ukraine. Both of them were part of the Axis and supplied their Armies on the Eastern Front alongside of the Germans. That had a lot to do with the west not caring much about the USSR annexing them after the war. Place was a mess anyhow and predictably stifled USSR economy and caused great grief and problems.

My opinion is that you put way to much importance on what a small faction from western Ukraine has on the rest of the nation. How many votes did they get during the elections? The answer is, less than 5%. You make the birthday anniversary march for Bandera sound like some huge and significant event. It was a few thousand people who support Nationalism in the midst of a crisis about the nations direction and rejection of Russian colonization. I compare it to confederacy supporters in America honoring various confederate generals with memorials and the confederate flag. Just because thousands of Americans fly confederate flags on Lee's birthday doesn't mean the whole country supports the legacy of Lee. Just because tens of thousand fly the confederate flag every day, maybe hundreds of thousands, doesn't mean the country supports and wants the return of slavery

 

[Richard-H]

You shouldn't mistake Camp's anti Russian (Putin) rhetoric as being necessarily pro Kiev.

As for Bandera being a Nazi, you should properly examine Camp's posts on the subject with an open mind. Bandera shared a Fascist ideology with the Nazis, that didn't necessarily make him a Nazi. Bandera was perhaps the first Neo-Nazi though, which would be a better description of the scum infesting Kiev these days. A small but relevant distinction.

Ironically, while promoting her Ukrainian ancestry and living in a small isolated Ukrainian community in Canada, the biggest financial contributions to the neo Nazi factions in western Ukraine come from the majority and much larger Ukrainian communities in Canada. Her ideas and spins are rejected by Ukrainians in Ukraine and by Canadian Ukrainians alike. Unlike TD, they realize and understand that Banderas was in a Nazi concentration camp when OUN was committing the atrocities she highlights and attributes to him. His legacy and the movement that honors him can be viewed as Nationalistic as can most neo Nazi's of Europe today.

For crying out loud why are you lying about Bandera? It makes no sense to me. And yes I have chosen to live in rural Manitoba now but I know who all the fucking players are.

I've made a point of focusing on the Canadian Bandera faction. I'm going to make sure that they are all exposed.

He was a fucking Nazi collaborater. Of that there is no doubt.

Or do you wish to argue with all who condemned the award? Like Jews. Like Poles.

Go ahead Camp. Tell the Simon Wiesenthal Centre that they are idiots and fools.

"The Simon Wiesenthal centre also expressed outrage, saying Bandera was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews."

Hero one day, but not the next: Stepan Bandera debate flares

What lie have I told about Bandera? I have not defended him, unless you consider relaying factual data as defending, nor have I denied his eventual alliance with the Nazi's. I have merely pointed out that he spent time in a Nazi concentration camp and most of the OUN atrocities and crimes were committed while he was imprisoned during that period.
You simply do not know or recognize that Bandera is known for his Cold War warrior status and fight against USSR occupation of his region in Ukraine during almost the entire period from the end of WWII until his murder by the KGB in 1959. His hero award was rejected by the majority of of Ukrainians and in fact rescinded. The people who support him are from the region of Ukraine where he, and the President of Ukraine who awarded him the hero status both came from. President Yushenko gave him the award before he left office, after being poisoned by the KGB. People remember him as the President who was poisoned with dioxon that failed to kill him, but left him with a horrible facial disfigurement. His naming of Bandera as a hero was an insult to Russia.
Finally, why does your community have a memorial to Bucovina. It is a beautiful area. I have been to the northern part. Lovely villages in valley settings with forested mountains and hills. The area has more of a Romanian flavor and heritage than a Ukrainian one. The worst WWII atrocities of that area were committed by USSR and Romanians. Do you know of an incident that involved OUN that took place there?

Here's where we go into a grey zone. It's not that I wanted to ever find out what we did. But being thrust in the middle of this now with Harper et al backing the new government in Kiev AND being such a politico I stumbled upon facts that had my hair standing on end.

Lviv.

Now we should come to terms with this. And it's not that we have to beat up ourselves daily. I'm married to a German by the way. How's that for a spanner in the works?

Even though it is so sad what we did. Unless we confront what we did. Unless we recognize our part and wrestle this to the ground we cannot help the new Ukraine.

Oh the memorial to Bukovina is just at a crossroads up the road from me where I work my coonhound. I literally fell into it. My young hound is very strong. I took a header and found the monument that someone put up there.

It's not fancy. It's been obviously covered in moss for years on end. It was wonderous when I found it though. Mud and all.

About the Memorial, you may want to look up the Massacre of Fantana Alba.

Many places in Eastern Europe collaborated with the Nazi's. Not sure you can even find an East European nation that didn't have significant numbers of collaborators. Romania and Hungary had huge influence and a mixed history with the region of western Ukraine. Both of them were part of the Axis and supplied their Armies on the Eastern Front alongside of the Germans. That had a lot to do with the west not caring much about the USSR annexing them after the war. Place was a mess anyhow and predictably stifled USSR economy and caused great grief and problems.

My opinion is that you put way to much importance on what a small faction from western Ukraine has on the rest of the nation. How many votes did they get during the elections? The answer is, less than 5%. You make the birthday anniversary march for Bandera sound like some huge and significant event. It was a few thousand people who support Nationalism in the midst of a crisis about the nations direction and rejection of Russian colonization. I compare it to confederacy supporters in America honoring various confederate generals with memorials and the confederate flag. Just because thousands of Americans fly confederate flags on Lee's birthday doesn't mean the whole country supports the legacy of Lee. Just because tens of thousand fly the confederate flag every day, maybe hundreds of thousands, doesn't mean the country supports and wants the return of slavery

Russian colonization? It's been my understanding that Kiev was the birthplace of the Russian people - that they have been in the Ukraine for at a thousand of years. As a matter of fact most of the people in western Ukraine are descended
from German and eastern Europeans who migrated there under a program by Catherine the great who wanted to populate the region. But don't believe me, read up on the history of Ukraine on Wikipedia....

 

[Camp]

Ironically, while promoting her Ukrainian ancestry and living in a small isolated Ukrainian community in Canada, the biggest financial contributions to the neo Nazi factions in western Ukraine come from the majority and much larger Ukrainian communities in Canada. Her ideas and spins are rejected by Ukrainians in Ukraine and by Canadian Ukrainians alike. Unlike TD, they realize and understand that Banderas was in a Nazi concentration camp when OUN was committing the atrocities she highlights and attributes to him. His legacy and the movement that honors him can be viewed as Nationalistic as can most neo Nazi's of Europe today.

For crying out loud why are you lying about Bandera? It makes no sense to me. And yes I have chosen to live in rural Manitoba now but I know who all the fucking players are.

I've made a point of focusing on the Canadian Bandera faction. I'm going to make sure that they are all exposed.

He was a fucking Nazi collaborater. Of that there is no doubt.

Or do you wish to argue with all who condemned the award? Like Jews. Like Poles.

Go ahead Camp. Tell the Simon Wiesenthal Centre that they are idiots and fools.

"The Simon Wiesenthal centre also expressed outrage, saying Bandera was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews."

Hero one day, but not the next: Stepan Bandera debate flares

What lie have I told about Bandera? I have not defended him, unless you consider relaying factual data as defending, nor have I denied his eventual alliance with the Nazi's. I have merely pointed out that he spent time in a Nazi concentration camp and most of the OUN atrocities and crimes were committed while he was imprisoned during that period.
You simply do not know or recognize that Bandera is known for his Cold War warrior status and fight against USSR occupation of his region in Ukraine during almost the entire period from the end of WWII until his murder by the KGB in 1959. His hero award was rejected by the majority of of Ukrainians and in fact rescinded. The people who support him are from the region of Ukraine where he, and the President of Ukraine who awarded him the hero status both came from. President Yushenko gave him the award before he left office, after being poisoned by the KGB. People remember him as the President who was poisoned with dioxon that failed to kill him, but left him with a horrible facial disfigurement. His naming of Bandera as a hero was an insult to Russia.
Finally, why does your community have a memorial to Bucovina. It is a beautiful area. I have been to the northern part. Lovely villages in valley settings with forested mountains and hills. The area has more of a Romanian flavor and heritage than a Ukrainian one. The worst WWII atrocities of that area were committed by USSR and Romanians. Do you know of an incident that involved OUN that took place there?

Here's where we go into a grey zone. It's not that I wanted to ever find out what we did. But being thrust in the middle of this now with Harper et al backing the new government in Kiev AND being such a politico I stumbled upon facts that had my hair standing on end.

Lviv.

Now we should come to terms with this. And it's not that we have to beat up ourselves daily. I'm married to a German by the way. How's that for a spanner in the works?

Even though it is so sad what we did. Unless we confront what we did. Unless we recognize our part and wrestle this to the ground we cannot help the new Ukraine.

Oh the memorial to Bukovina is just at a crossroads up the road from me where I work my coonhound. I literally fell into it. My young hound is very strong. I took a header and found the monument that someone put up there.

It's not fancy. It's been obviously covered in moss for years on end. It was wonderous when I found it though. Mud and all.

About the Memorial, you may want to look up the Massacre of Fantana Alba.

Many places in Eastern Europe collaborated with the Nazi's. Not sure you can even find an East European nation that didn't have significant numbers of collaborators. Romania and Hungary had huge influence and a mixed history with the region of western Ukraine. Both of them were part of the Axis and supplied their Armies on the Eastern Front alongside of the Germans. That had a lot to do with the west not caring much about the USSR annexing them after the war. Place was a mess anyhow and predictably stifled USSR economy and caused great grief and problems.

My opinion is that you put way to much importance on what a small faction from western Ukraine has on the rest of the nation. How many votes did they get during the elections? The answer is, less than 5%. You make the birthday anniversary march for Bandera sound like some huge and significant event. It was a few thousand people who support Nationalism in the midst of a crisis about the nations direction and rejection of Russian colonization. I compare it to confederacy supporters in America honoring various confederate generals with memorials and the confederate flag. Just because thousands of Americans fly confederate flags on Lee's birthday doesn't mean the whole country supports the legacy of Lee. Just because tens of thousand fly the confederate flag every day, maybe hundreds of thousands, doesn't mean the country supports and wants the return of slavery

Russian colonization? It's been my understanding that Kiev was the birthplace of the Russian people - that they have been in the Ukraine for at a thousand of years. As a matter of fact most of the people in western Ukraine are descended
from German and eastern Europeans who migrated there under a program by Catherine the great who wanted to populate the region. But don't believe me, read up on the history of Ukraine on Wikipedia....

I was referring to post revolution and USSR expansion, the Holodomor or terror famines of the 30's, WWII and the mass immigration after WWII of Russians into the eastern Ukraine regions that had been depopulated during both the famine, the war and the Stalin purges.

 

[tinydancer]

You shouldn't mistake Camp's anti Russian (Putin) rhetoric as being necessarily pro Kiev.

As for Bandera being a Nazi, you should properly examine Camp's posts on the subject with an open mind. Bandera shared a Fascist ideology with the Nazis, that didn't necessarily make him a Nazi. Bandera was perhaps the first Neo-Nazi though, which would be a better description of the scum infesting Kiev these days. A small but relevant distinction.

Ironically, while promoting her Ukrainian ancestry and living in a small isolated Ukrainian community in Canada, the biggest financial contributions to the neo Nazi factions in western Ukraine come from the majority and much larger Ukrainian communities in Canada. Her ideas and spins are rejected by Ukrainians in Ukraine and by Canadian Ukrainians alike. Unlike TD, they realize and understand that Banderas was in a Nazi concentration camp when OUN was committing the atrocities she highlights and attributes to him. His legacy and the movement that honors him can be viewed as Nationalistic as can most neo Nazi's of Europe today.

For crying out loud why are you lying about Bandera? It makes no sense to me. And yes I have chosen to live in rural Manitoba now but I know who all the fucking players are.

I've made a point of focusing on the Canadian Bandera faction. I'm going to make sure that they are all exposed.

He was a fucking Nazi collaborater. Of that there is no doubt.

Or do you wish to argue with all who condemned the award? Like Jews. Like Poles.

Go ahead Camp. Tell the Simon Wiesenthal Centre that they are idiots and fools.

"The Simon Wiesenthal centre also expressed outrage, saying Bandera was responsible for the deaths of thousands of Jews."

Hero one day, but not the next: Stepan Bandera debate flares

What lie have I told about Bandera? I have not defended him, unless you consider relaying factual data as defending, nor have I denied his eventual alliance with the Nazi's. I have merely pointed out that he spent time in a Nazi concentration camp and most of the OUN atrocities and crimes were committed while he was imprisoned during that period.
You simply do not know or recognize that Bandera is known for his Cold War warrior status and fight against USSR occupation of his region in Ukraine during almost the entire period from the end of WWII until his murder by the KGB in 1959. His hero award was rejected by the majority of of Ukrainians and in fact rescinded. The people who support him are from the region of Ukraine where he, and the President of Ukraine who awarded him the hero status both came from. President Yushenko gave him the award before he left office, after being poisoned by the KGB. People remember him as the President who was poisoned with dioxon that failed to kill him, but left him with a horrible facial disfigurement. His naming of Bandera as a hero was an insult to Russia.
Finally, why does your community have a memorial to Bucovina. It is a beautiful area. I have been to the northern part. Lovely villages in valley settings with forested mountains and hills. The area has more of a Romanian flavor and heritage than a Ukrainian one. The worst WWII atrocities of that area were committed by USSR and Romanians. Do you know of an incident that involved OUN that took place there?

Here's where we go into a grey zone. It's not that I wanted to ever find out what we did. But being thrust in the middle of this now with Harper et al backing the new government in Kiev AND being such a politico I stumbled upon facts that had my hair standing on end.

Lviv.

Now we should come to terms with this. And it's not that we have to beat up ourselves daily. I'm married to a German by the way. How's that for a spanner in the works?

Even though it is so sad what we did. Unless we confront what we did. Unless we recognize our part and wrestle this to the ground we cannot help the new Ukraine.

Oh the memorial to Bukovina is just at a crossroads up the road from me where I work my coonhound. I literally fell into it. My young hound is very strong. I took a header and found the monument that someone put up there.

It's not fancy. It's been obviously covered in moss for years on end. It was wonderous when I found it though. Mud and all.

I have a coonhound too! Great dog! Sweet nature, yet dignified. Just as long as your not a raccoon or skunk! Mine mutilated a skunk a few weeks ago...she knew exactly what she was doing...didn't get sprayed at all. Amazing dog!

Sorry off topic....

OMG where the hell are you?

we are in sundown. we've got a boy straight from Iowa. this son of a gun is so big he's been more than a handful and I have rocked with catahoulas. this pup is killing me.

 

[ESay]

Russian colonization? It's been my understanding that Kiev was the birthplace of the Russian people - that they have been in the Ukraine for at a thousand of years. As a matter of fact most of the people in western Ukraine are descended
from German and eastern Europeans who migrated there under a program by Catherine the great who wanted to populate the region. But don't believe me, read up on the history of Ukraine on Wikipedia....

It depends what you consider as Russian people. The medieval Kievan Rus united most East Slavic tribes. From those tribes later came to existence contemporary Russians, Belarusians, and Ukrainians. Don’t confuse Old Rusichs with contemporary Russians.

 

[Sallow]

Nonsense conspiracy theories promoted by the nut bag rw fringe. Nothing to back up your idiocy except a hatred and derangement you and they are obsessed with.

Then post where his bombing campaigns in Libya and Syria were approved by Congress...

I must have missed that.

When will Congress give him the authorization and allocate resources to fight ISIS?

He already has more than he's using...

When will he decide to fight them instead of jacking off?nn

I didn't say he needed one in a legal sense, but just to placate the partisans who would accuse him of abusing his authority buy starting illegal wars!

He needed one in a legal sense for Libya and Syria, and he pursued illegal wars by continuing the bombing past 60 days without getting it in an attempt to overthrow their governments... That contributed to ISIS spreading into Syria and Libya...

He finally got approval to bomb ISIS in Iraq and Syria, but stopped right there, and refused to go any further...

Now, how do we handle ISIS, since they ARE a serious threat (instead of just the JV team)???

When did Congress approve a bombing of Syria? Or of ISIS for that matter?

 

[Sallow]

This basically puts on display the shallow thinking of conservative state craft.

It's pretty amazing.

So you want to deny that Obozo bombed Assad's forces and armed the rebels???
President Obama OKs Shipment of Arms to Al-Qaeda in Syria

There was initial support for some of these groups until it was discovered that members of "Al-Qaeda" (Which in itself is quite convoluted) were filtering in and out of these groups. That support was promptly stopped to the absolute chagrin of folks like Lindsey Graham and John McCain.

It's a very complex and volatile situation that was initiated by multiple factors, not the least of which, was the invasion of Iraq, the ouster of the Baathists and the execution of Saddam Hussein.

In any case, most of you folks have no more interest in this than as a cudgel to continue bashing this administration, which, had, nothing whatsoever to do with the turmoil.

How did Egypt work out for you?

How did Libya work out for you?

How did Yemen work out for you?

How is the Ukraine working out for you?

How is Syria working out for you?

Obama and other western leaders have tried such a huge effort to overturn the ME into a Sunni only zone it makes one breathless.

It all started under Bush. It can't be denied.

And continues to get worse under Obama.

But partisan hacks cant get past that part.

Get past what part?

Most everyone knew this would happen.

Even the people that perpetrated it.

 

[tinydancer]

Russian colonization? It's been my understanding that Kiev was the birthplace of the Russian people - that they have been in the Ukraine for at a thousand of years. As a matter of fact most of the people in western Ukraine are descended
from German and eastern Europeans who migrated there under a program by Catherine the great who wanted to populate the region. But don't believe me, read up on the history of Ukraine on Wikipedia....

It depends what you consider as Russian people. The medieval Kievan Rus united most East Slavic tribes. From those tribes later came to existence contemporary Russians, Belarusians, and Ukrainians. Don’t confuse Old Rusichs with contemporary Russians.

Sheesh most people don't know that Crimea was a gift to the Ukraine from Khrushchev. Can you imagine waking up one morning and going "what I'm Ukrainian now?"

Nikki you did what?

 

[tinydancer]

So you want to deny that Obozo bombed Assad's forces and armed the rebels???
President Obama OKs Shipment of Arms to Al-Qaeda in Syria

There was initial support for some of these groups until it was discovered that members of "Al-Qaeda" (Which in itself is quite convoluted) were filtering in and out of these groups. That support was promptly stopped to the absolute chagrin of folks like Lindsey Graham and John McCain.

It's a very complex and volatile situation that was initiated by multiple factors, not the least of which, was the invasion of Iraq, the ouster of the Baathists and the execution of Saddam Hussein.

In any case, most of you folks have no more interest in this than as a cudgel to continue bashing this administration, which, had, nothing whatsoever to do with the turmoil.

How did Egypt work out for you?

How did Libya work out for you?

How did Yemen work out for you?

How is the Ukraine working out for you?

How is Syria working out for you?

Obama and other western leaders have tried such a huge effort to overturn the ME into a Sunni only zone it makes one breathless.

It all started under Bush. It can't be denied.

And continues to get worse under Obama.

But partisan hacks cant get past that part.

Get past what part?

Most everyone knew this would happen.

Even the people that perpetrated it.

Sallow the one action to try to clear out Afghanistan of AQ was not only justified in my mind but fucking absolutely necessary. What President Clinton could have done years before though was squish Benazir's you know whats and cut her off from funding the Taliban.

Benazir is the evil godmother here.

 

[FA_Q2]

So you want to deny that Obozo bombed Assad's forces and armed the rebels???
President Obama OKs Shipment of Arms to Al-Qaeda in Syria

There was initial support for some of these groups until it was discovered that members of "Al-Qaeda" (Which in itself is quite convoluted) were filtering in and out of these groups. That support was promptly stopped to the absolute chagrin of folks like Lindsey Graham and John McCain.

It's a very complex and volatile situation that was initiated by multiple factors, not the least of which, was the invasion of Iraq, the ouster of the Baathists and the execution of Saddam Hussein.

In any case, most of you folks have no more interest in this than as a cudgel to continue bashing this administration, which, had, nothing whatsoever to do with the turmoil.

How did Egypt work out for you?

How did Libya work out for you?

How did Yemen work out for you?

How is the Ukraine working out for you?

How is Syria working out for you?

Obama and other western leaders have tried such a huge effort to overturn the ME into a Sunni only zone it makes one breathless.

It all started under Bush. It can't be denied.

And continues to get worse under Obama.

But partisan hacks cant get past that part.

Get past what part?

Most everyone knew this would happen.

Even the people that perpetrated it.

Get past the part where your guy takes over and continues to fuck things up.

The above is yet another display of the inability to come to terms with that. If there is an issue anywhere the immediate answer from the left is to plug their ears and yell Bush over and over again.

Obama's FP has been a disaster and is only getting worse. We are still engaged in an international war that is structured to never end. It is what defined the Bush yeas as a total failure and as Obama continues it it makes his a failure as well.

 

[FA_Q2]

There was initial support for some of these groups until it was discovered that members of "Al-Qaeda" (Which in itself is quite convoluted) were filtering in and out of these groups. That support was promptly stopped to the absolute chagrin of folks like Lindsey Graham and John McCain.

It's a very complex and volatile situation that was initiated by multiple factors, not the least of which, was the invasion of Iraq, the ouster of the Baathists and the execution of Saddam Hussein.

In any case, most of you folks have no more interest in this than as a cudgel to continue bashing this administration, which, had, nothing whatsoever to do with the turmoil.

How did Egypt work out for you?

How did Libya work out for you?

How did Yemen work out for you?

How is the Ukraine working out for you?

How is Syria working out for you?

Obama and other western leaders have tried such a huge effort to overturn the ME into a Sunni only zone it makes one breathless.

It all started under Bush. It can't be denied.

And continues to get worse under Obama.

But partisan hacks cant get past that part.

Get past what part?

Most everyone knew this would happen.

Even the people that perpetrated it.

Sallow the one action to try to clear out Afghanistan of AQ was not only justified in my mind but fucking absolutely necessary. What President Clinton could have done years before though was squish Benazir's you know whats and cut her off from funding the Taliban.

Benazir is the evil godmother here.

That may be but we didn't end it there (or even do the job in the first place) and went on to Iraq.

To me, THAT is where we totally fucked up and that is a fuck up of epic proportions.

 

[tinydancer]

How did Egypt work out for you?

How did Libya work out for you?

How did Yemen work out for you?

How is the Ukraine working out for you?

How is Syria working out for you?

Obama and other western leaders have tried such a huge effort to overturn the ME into a Sunni only zone it makes one breathless.

It all started under Bush. It can't be denied.

And continues to get worse under Obama.

But partisan hacks cant get past that part.

Get past what part?

Most everyone knew this would happen.

Even the people that perpetrated it.

Sallow the one action to try to clear out Afghanistan of AQ was not only justified in my mind but fucking absolutely necessary. What President Clinton could have done years before though was squish Benazir's you know whats and cut her off from funding the Taliban.

Benazir is the evil godmother here.

That may be but we didn't end it there (or even do the job in the first place) and went on to Iraq.

To me, THAT is where we totally fucked up and that is a fuck up of epic proportions.

Mea culpa. I will truly grovel here. No problemo. I was part of the pack cheering this insanity on.

I was heavily involved in human rights groups over the Taliban. I worked hours on trying to find justice for this one woman. Allowed to be killed by my government in Iran. In the end for her there was justice.

A lot of social media warriors.

But for the rest? My heavens. What have we done?

What have we done?

 

[Sallow]

There was initial support for some of these groups until it was discovered that members of "Al-Qaeda" (Which in itself is quite convoluted) were filtering in and out of these groups. That support was promptly stopped to the absolute chagrin of folks like Lindsey Graham and John McCain.

It's a very complex and volatile situation that was initiated by multiple factors, not the least of which, was the invasion of Iraq, the ouster of the Baathists and the execution of Saddam Hussein.

In any case, most of you folks have no more interest in this than as a cudgel to continue bashing this administration, which, had, nothing whatsoever to do with the turmoil.

How did Egypt work out for you?

How did Libya work out for you?

How did Yemen work out for you?

How is the Ukraine working out for you?

How is Syria working out for you?

Obama and other western leaders have tried such a huge effort to overturn the ME into a Sunni only zone it makes one breathless.

It all started under Bush. It can't be denied.

And continues to get worse under Obama.

But partisan hacks cant get past that part.

Get past what part?

Most everyone knew this would happen.

Even the people that perpetrated it.

Get past the part where your guy takes over and continues to fuck things up.

The above is yet another display of the inability to come to terms with that. If there is an issue anywhere the immediate answer from the left is to plug their ears and yell Bush over and over again.

Obama's FP has been a disaster and is only getting worse. We are still engaged in an international war that is structured to never end. It is what defined the Bush yeas as a total failure and as Obama continues it it makes his a failure as well.

Things were already fucked up. Petraeus managed to make it less fucked up by flooding Iraq with American troops and bribing large swaths of the Sunni insurgency. But that didn't last long, especially with Maliki at the helm. They wanted the troops out and they wanted to round up the Sunnis.

That's what they got and it enflamed the civil war.

Additionally everyone else saw no reason to be saddled with their own despots.

This sort of thing was going to happen sooner or later. Unfortunately, Bush popped the cork and there is no putting the genie back in the bottle.

So unless we want to annex the Middle East and kick all the revolutions down the line for another 20 or 30 years..

This is something the people of the region need to sort out for themselves.

 

[tinydancer]

How did Egypt work out for you?

How did Libya work out for you?

How did Yemen work out for you?

How is the Ukraine working out for you?

How is Syria working out for you?

Obama and other western leaders have tried such a huge effort to overturn the ME into a Sunni only zone it makes one breathless.

It all started under Bush. It can't be denied.

And continues to get worse under Obama.

But partisan hacks cant get past that part.

Get past what part?

Most everyone knew this would happen.

Even the people that perpetrated it.

Get past the part where your guy takes over and continues to fuck things up.

The above is yet another display of the inability to come to terms with that. If there is an issue anywhere the immediate answer from the left is to plug their ears and yell Bush over and over again.

Obama's FP has been a disaster and is only getting worse. We are still engaged in an international war that is structured to never end. It is what defined the Bush yeas as a total failure and as Obama continues it it makes his a failure as well.

Things were already fucked up. Petraeus managed to make it less fucked up by flooding Iraq with American troops and bribing large swaths of the Sunni insurgency. But that didn't last long, especially with Maliki at the helm. They wanted the troops out and they wanted to round up the Sunnis.

That's what they got and it enflamed the civil war.

Additionally everyone else saw no reason to be saddled with their own despots.

This sort of thing was going to happen sooner or later. Unfortunately, Bush popped the cork and there is no putting the genie back in the bottle.

So unless we want to annex the Middle East and kick all the revolutions down the line for another 20 or 30 years..

This is something the people of the region need to sort out for themselves.

If I could go back in time Sallow I would.

We opened the lid on Pandora's box. I know Monday morning quarterbacking won't work now. But whoa geeze we really fucked up.

 

[Sallow]

It all started under Bush. It can't be denied.

And continues to get worse under Obama.

But partisan hacks cant get past that part.

Get past what part?

Most everyone knew this would happen.

Even the people that perpetrated it.

Get past the part where your guy takes over and continues to fuck things up.

The above is yet another display of the inability to come to terms with that. If there is an issue anywhere the immediate answer from the left is to plug their ears and yell Bush over and over again.

Obama's FP has been a disaster and is only getting worse. We are still engaged in an international war that is structured to never end. It is what defined the Bush yeas as a total failure and as Obama continues it it makes his a failure as well.

Things were already fucked up. Petraeus managed to make it less fucked up by flooding Iraq with American troops and bribing large swaths of the Sunni insurgency. But that didn't last long, especially with Maliki at the helm. They wanted the troops out and they wanted to round up the Sunnis.

That's what they got and it enflamed the civil war.

Additionally everyone else saw no reason to be saddled with their own despots.

This sort of thing was going to happen sooner or later. Unfortunately, Bush popped the cork and there is no putting the genie back in the bottle.

So unless we want to annex the Middle East and kick all the revolutions down the line for another 20 or 30 years..

This is something the people of the region need to sort out for themselves.

If I could go back in time Sallow I would.

We opened the lid on Pandora's box. I know Monday morning quarterbacking won't work now. But whoa geeze we really fucked up.

I nominate this for first rational post in the thread.

Grats.

 

[tinydancer]

And continues to get worse under Obama.

But partisan hacks cant get past that part.

Get past what part?

Most everyone knew this would happen.

Even the people that perpetrated it.

Get past the part where your guy takes over and continues to fuck things up.

The above is yet another display of the inability to come to terms with that. If there is an issue anywhere the immediate answer from the left is to plug their ears and yell Bush over and over again.

Obama's FP has been a disaster and is only getting worse. We are still engaged in an international war that is structured to never end. It is what defined the Bush yeas as a total failure and as Obama continues it it makes his a failure as well.

Things were already fucked up. Petraeus managed to make it less fucked up by flooding Iraq with American troops and bribing large swaths of the Sunni insurgency. But that didn't last long, especially with Maliki at the helm. They wanted the troops out and they wanted to round up the Sunnis.

That's what they got and it enflamed the civil war.

Additionally everyone else saw no reason to be saddled with their own despots.

This sort of thing was going to happen sooner or later. Unfortunately, Bush popped the cork and there is no putting the genie back in the bottle.

So unless we want to annex the Middle East and kick all the revolutions down the line for another 20 or 30 years..

This is something the people of the region need to sort out for themselves.

If I could go back in time Sallow I would.

We opened the lid on Pandora's box. I know Monday morning quarterbacking won't work now. But whoa geeze we really fucked up.

I nominate this for first rational post in the thread.

Grats.

Thank you Sallow. I appreciate it. Over the years this has been a hard pill to swallow please pardon the pun. I was so gung ho. What idiot part of my brain actually made me think I could jump start and this is said without insult but desert dwellers in Afghanistan into the here and now?

I am a fool. We did everything so wrong. And so many have died.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Putin has commenced bombing in Syria and a Russian general has demanded the US planes leave Syria.

Gee, wonder who saw this coming?