Reaganomics is Dead

[Toro]

The bailouts, the bankruptsies, the deregulations, Iraq, all on purpose. But I'm a conspiracy theorist. Bankrupt the treasury so you can cut/end social programs and privatize. Disaster capitalism.

Just cause I'm a conspiracy theorist, doesn't mean I'm wrong either.

But you're wrong on this one.

 

[The Rabbi]

/QUOTE]

Free market? What free market? There's not a single free market in America

Nor should there be. In a truly capitalist free market, labor is paid very little. So we should quit talking about free markets like they are a good thing.

Freeing up business to spark commerce is different than what Corporations and Politicians did to us. And if we want to free up corporate $, then take healthcare off their plates.

Actually in a free market labor gets paid exactly what it is worth. In a communist style market labor gets paid probably less than it is worth, with some workers making union-negotiated hyper-market wages and many workers unemployed. People look at those working but don't look at those not working.
And Mr Sock Puppet is going on iggy.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Are you a meat puppet for the reactionary wingtoids or what, Rab? Your opinion counts for you, I am sure, but you are moon calf, too.

 

[sealybobo]

Reagan doubled the National Debt by lowering taxes for the rich.

Bush did the same thing.

Guess who is going to pay for it?

Not the rich.

When times are good and people are working, they don't worry that right wing ideas might be bad for them. Like labor issues, so Reagan saved the Big 3 during that recession, and he got the union vote. That allowed Reagan to deregulate, get tax breaks for the rich passed, start free trading. He didn't go as far as the right wanted, but he went far enough. Clinton didn't go as far as they wanted either, but far enough. Daddy Bush didn't go as far as they wanted, not even close, so he only won one term. They needed a war to go as far as they did, and then 9-11 happened. It allowed them to push almost all their right wing ideas. They even tried for privatizing social security. Now the Supreme Court has Alito and Roberts who always side with Corporations. Congress is owned by corporations. The bankers own us all.

You sound a lot like Alec Baldwin from "Team America"

You get more truth from the creators of Southpark than you do from Fox News.

Dirka Dirka.

 

[sealybobo]

The bailouts, the bankruptsies, the deregulations, Iraq, all on purpose. But I'm a conspiracy theorist. Bankrupt the treasury so you can cut/end social programs and privatize. Disaster capitalism.

Just cause I'm a conspiracy theorist, doesn't mean I'm wrong either.

But you're wrong on this one.

This is why lefties can never work with righties. Righties know we aren't really free and that the corporations/banks own our country, but they can't get themselves to talk negatively about banks and Wallstreet, because they are corporations. So I'll blame Lieberman and Boehner and you can blame Barnie Frank, Harry Reed and Pelosi. Forget about taking back our country/government. Fuck it. My side will stay corrupt and so will yours. They all serve the bankers. Watch that new Michael Moore movie and wake up.

Didn't Jefferson say banks/bankers were more harmful to Democracy than standing armies? Or something to that affect?

You were wrong for 8 straight years and nothing has changed. I've been correct all along.

 

[Neubarth]

Nor should there be. In a truly capitalist free market, labor is paid very little. So we should quit talking about free markets like they are a good thing.

Freeing up business to spark commerce is different than what Corporations and Politicians did to us. And if we want to free up corporate $, then take healthcare off their plates.

Actually in a free market labor gets paid exactly what it is worth. In a communist style market labor gets paid probably less than it is worth, with some workers making union-negotiated hyper-market wages and many workers unemployed. People look at those working but don't look at those not working.
And Mr Sock Puppet is going on iggy.

Actually there podner, I see a clear differentiation between Intelligentsia and physical labor in a Capitalist Industrial society as opposed to a Socialist or Communist society.

In the Capitalist society the Intelligentsia seem to gain the highest reward. Under them, the less intelligent but non physical labor workers and managers seem to flounder in different paying jobs, and physical labor usually makes a survivor wage. Unions do alter the picture a little.

In a Communist society the Intelligentsia seem to suffer and there is not much difference between a physical laborer and a doctor. In Socialism there is a difference but because of oppressive taxes, the true financial difference is not that great.

The only advantage to Communism that I can see is that the physical laborers do not feel so inferior to the intelligentsia. It is a world where the dumb people have the upper hand. The US is turning in that direction because we subsidize the births of dumb children to the welfare and social security mothers across this land.

Of course you know that we put most of the welfare mothers on Social Security years ago when there was a stink about the Welfare load in our inner cities. So now they go on Social Security if they are dumb enough and on that system if they have children they are covered on welfare until they are 18. At that time if they are too dumb they are placed on Social Security to start the system all over again. We are doubling the Social Security load of retards every dozen years or so because of the tremendos birth rate of the retards, many of whom start pushing out greasy little retarded monkeys at the age of 13 or 14. That is how the system works.

 

[The Rabbi]

This is why you see so many college degreed people working at Starbucks, right? And why auto workers are among the highest paid people (when they're still working working), right?

I'd suggest a strong dose of reality. Call me in the morning.

And still waiting to hear when Reaganomics is not workable in an economy.

 

[Neubarth]

This is why you see so many college degreed people working at Starbucks, right? And why auto workers are among the highest paid people (when they're still working working), right?

I'd suggest a strong dose of reality. Call me in the morning.

And still waiting to hear when Reaganomics is not workable in an economy.

Dude, in a Depression things get topsy turvey. The simple fact of the matter is that exceptions do exist to everything. Hell, there are two WallMart Greeters that I have interviewed who have PhD's. Contrary to your mythical world, Auto Workers who are under Union Contract qualify as middle income, and do not get intelligentsia pay.

In what country do you live?

 

[The Rabbi]

This is why you see so many college degreed people working at Starbucks, right? And why auto workers are among the highest paid people (when they're still working working), right?

I'd suggest a strong dose of reality. Call me in the morning.

And still waiting to hear when Reaganomics is not workable in an economy.

Dude, in a Depression things get topsy turvey. The simple fact of the matter is that exceptions do exist to everything. Hell, there are two WallMart Greeters that I have interviewed who have PhD's. Contrary to your mythical world, Auto Workers who are under Union Contract qualify as middle income, and do not get intelligentsia pay.

In what country do you live?

Dude, those same college degreed people were working there 4 and 5 years ago. I would suggest checking out the Millionaire Next Door book and seeing that tradespeople with their own businesses represent most millionaires in this country.

And I'm still waiting to hear when Reaganomics is a bad idea for the country.

 

[JakeStarkey]

That Reaganomics has been demonstrated to fail has been shown repeatedly in these threads.

That you refuse to believe it, Rab, is irrelevant.

And did you talk with the two folks referenced by Neubarth? Nope. So your comment on that is irrelevant. Really, Rab, move on.

 

[midcan5]

Reagan has to be the greatest myth and contradiction in American presidential history. There is a humorous irony in the fact he was an actor. First he was a Keynesian spending like a drunken sailor (that helped but his tax cuts hurt), then he raised taxes having the largest tax peace time tax increase in our history (but he is remembered and praised for his tax cuts). Then he brought down Communism with a speech, (words only!) while wasting billions on a defense shield that never worked and soon became obsolete in the modern war on a noun. He ran from Beirut after our soldiers died but invaded Granada. Lost without his index cards, he often didn't know if his references were to movies or reality. And yet he remains for the republicans and conservatives the epitome of grandeur. You figure it out, I can't.

OpEdNews - Article: Ronald Reagan: Worst President Ever?

Firedoglake » Newsflash: Ronald Reagan Raised Taxes (You Idiots)

 

[sealybobo]

Actually in a free market labor gets paid exactly what it is worth. In a communist style market labor gets paid probably less than it is worth, with some workers making union-negotiated hyper-market wages and many workers unemployed. People look at those working but don't look at those not working.
And Mr Sock Puppet is going on iggy.

Actually there podner, I see a clear differentiation between Intelligentsia and physical labor in a Capitalist Industrial society as opposed to a Socialist or Communist society.

In the Capitalist society the Intelligentsia seem to gain the highest reward. Under them, the less intelligent but non physical labor workers and managers seem to flounder in different paying jobs, and physical labor usually makes a survivor wage. Unions do alter the picture a little.

In a Communist society the Intelligentsia seem to suffer and there is not much difference between a physical laborer and a doctor. In Socialism there is a difference but because of oppressive taxes, the true financial difference is not that great.

The only advantage to Communism that I can see is that the physical laborers do not feel so inferior to the intelligentsia. It is a world where the dumb people have the upper hand. The US is turning in that direction because we subsidize the births of dumb children to the welfare and social security mothers across this land.

Of course you know that we put most of the welfare mothers on Social Security years ago when there was a stink about the Welfare load in our inner cities. So now they go on Social Security if they are dumb enough and on that system if they have children they are covered on welfare until they are 18. At that time if they are too dumb they are placed on Social Security to start the system all over again. We are doubling the Social Security load of retards every dozen years or so because of the tremendos birth rate of the retards, many of whom start pushing out greasy little retarded monkeys at the age of 13 or 14. That is how the system works.

In a truly capitalistic market, employees make very little. America isn't communism or socialism, but it sure as hell isn't total capitalism either. Nor should it be. If it were, what do you think you'd make slacky? And don't you realize a strong middle class is what made America the greatest country in the world? It wasn't because the Robber Baron's got really rich. They were rich over in Europe. America became number one because the masses did well. And every gain we achieved came from liberal policies/programs/laws.

So cry socialism when labor wins. I don't give a rats ass. Cry that it's unconstitutional too.

But what bugs me most is that most of the people who vote GOP are broke asses just like the rest of us, but you think you are one of them.

 

[sealybobo]

Democrats don't want companies to be over regulated either. But we aren't going to be like the GOP when Tom Delay ran things where we let corporations pollute, send jobs overseas, not pay any taxes and hire illegals. That's what they do in a totally free market.

What is wrong with you people? Companies are dangerously close to running the country. Actually, they already do because the Federal Reserve is owned by private bankers. But now all the smaller corporations like IBM and Shell and Blue Cross are trying to take over our Senators and you guys argue that they should? WTF!!!

 

[Hum Dinger]

First, in a capitalist society labor DOES NOT get paid what it's worth unless labor has a strong union representing it. Labor gets paid the least amount that management can get away with. Meaning that the economically advantaged take advantage of the economically disempowered and disadvantaged.

Labor produces EVERYTHING of value in a society - if they actually got paid what they were worth all currency would be sourced thru labor.

The reason why unions can demand such high wages is that they accurately calculate what labor is actually worth and demand just a little less to attract investors. If labor wasn't worth what unions were demanding, then all union industries would have closed down years ago.

As far as the Soviet model, labor did get paid marginally more than the educated, however, that didn't change much. If anything it produced an educated class that valued (and were respected for) education in and of itself. People became professions out of love for their profession, not for the money. There was no shortage of professionals and the quality of Soviet professionals was excellent.

Here in the U.S what passes for the intelligensia is 50% whores that couldn't care less about their profession. They stink. Education is so poor that a college degree only means a certified conformist, not an educated person. (This is one reason why our banking and financial wiz kids turned out to be such a joke.)

In a heirarchial business system, most of the hard work, including the intellectual work is forced down the system and done by the lowest level of workers, not the highest level. This is where the true brain power in the U.S. is. The managers & executives spend all their time babbling in meetings and going to lunch while the administrative assistants do all the real brain work.


Face it we're in a new Victorian age where the top leadership is a bunch of incompetent irresponsible boobs and everyone else is paying the price.

 

[Oddball]

Thank you, Friedrich Engels.

 

[The Rabbi]

Thank you, Friedrich Engels.

That's giving him too much credit. More like junior apparatchik.

 

[sealybobo]

First, in a capitalist society labor DOES NOT get paid what it's worth unless labor has a strong union representing it. Labor gets paid the least amount that management can get away with. Meaning that the economically advantaged take advantage of the economically disempowered and disadvantaged.

Labor produces EVERYTHING of value in a society - if they actually got paid what they were worth all currency would be sourced thru labor.

The reason why unions can demand such high wages is that they accurately calculate what labor is actually worth and demand just a little less to attract investors. If labor wasn't worth what unions were demanding, then all union industries would have closed down years ago.

As far as the Soviet model, labor did get paid marginally more than the educated, however, that didn't change much. If anything it produced an educated class that valued (and were respected for) education in and of itself. People became professions out of love for their profession, not for the money. There was no shortage of professionals and the quality of Soviet professionals was excellent.

Here in the U.S what passes for the intelligensia is 50% whores that couldn't care less about their profession. They stink. Education is so poor that a college degree only means a certified conformist, not an educated person. (This is one reason why our banking and financial wiz kids turned out to be such a joke.)

In a heirarchial business system, most of the hard work, including the intellectual work is forced down the system and done by the lowest level of workers, not the highest level. This is where the true brain power in the U.S. is. The managers & executives spend all their time babbling in meetings and going to lunch while the administrative assistants do all the real brain work.


Face it we're in a new Victorian age where the top leadership is a bunch of incompetent irresponsible boobs and everyone else is paying the price.

Good post Richard. Labor is worth more than what the right thinks it is worth. They argue that labor is overpaid. You explained perfectly why/how they are underpaid, not over.

The people who argue with you can't admit that they have more in common with the guy making minimum wage than they do with the exec making a million dollar bonus. Perfect example is my pharma rep buddy who voted GOP thinking they would protect his job and wages. Then they cut his wages, laid half his co workers off and his CEO got a $20mill bonus. So now he realizes he's labor, not management.

But many of the people on USMB think like he did before he realized he's labor. They don't want to be on the same team as gays, illegals, people who make minimum wage, unions, etc. They think they are above that. Soon they will find out they are one of us, not one of them. But then it will be too late.

Anyways, great post saying labor produces everything and is worth more than they will admit. Lets seem them argue.

 

[sealybobo]

Thank you, Friedrich Engels.

But Richard is right. In a 100% capitalistic society, labor costs would be low, not high. So Richard is right and you and Rabbi are wrong.

Let me guess, Rabbi agrees with Lieberman?

So either you are a business owner or you advocate for lowering your own wages.

Let me guess, you don't think this will affect you.

 

[The Rabbi]

Thank you, Friedrich Engels.

But Richard is right. In a 100% capitalistic society, labor costs would be low, not high. So Richard is right and you and Rabbi are wrong.

Let me guess, Rabbi agrees with Lieberman?

So either you are a business owner or you advocate for lowering your own wages.

Let me guess, you don't think this will affect you.

Let me guess: you've never taken an economics course or read a serious book about it, right?
Wage rates in a capitalistic economy are set by the market as a result of supply and demand. Thus they are neither "high" nor "low" but "just right." The more productive the worker and the more value he adds and the more scarce the skills, the higher he gets paid. This is why Mexicans get paid less than Americans: their productivity is also less.

But it's easier to blame the nasty capitalists.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Rabbi, your analysis is skewed and does not reflect reality. Capital will oppress labor every chance it gets. That is what unregulated capitalism does: make a profit any way it can.