Remembering Robert E. Lee: American Patriot and Southern Hero

[BlindBoo]

With hero's like that no wonder we lost the war.

 

[paperview]

Nothing in the Constitution says a state can't secede.

The Supreme Court disagrees with you.


Let's see....United States Supreme Court, or some bitter, weak-minded imbecile on the internet...which has more credibility? Hmmmm........

Anyone who puts stock in what the Supreme Court rules is a weak minded imbecile. The one that decided Texas vs. White was populated with Lincoln appointed hacks.

How about some in the South themselves?

Here's a goodun' for ya. Ten years before the war, 1850 - 51, when South Carolina was flouting around with secession and held their Convention - but couldn't get the other states to join them --

Lookie here, Mississippi held a Convention too, and what did they say?

"Resolved, further, 4th, That, in the opinion of this Convention, the asserted right of secession from the Union, on the part of a State or States, is utterly unsanctioned by the Federal Constitution, which was framed to establish, and not destroy, the Union of the States; and that no secession can, in fact, take place, without a subversion of the Union established, and which will not virtually amount, in its effects and consequences, to a civil revolution."

- 1851 Mississippi Secession Convention

Source: the rebellion record a diary of american events with documents narratives ... - frank moore - Google Books
http://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/...c30779/m1/117/

Ten years earlier they were saying secession was Unconstitutional. Howzabout that?

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

The United States didn't but the South did? Do you hear yourself? Who do you think built the ships and operated the slave trade. I'll give you a hint since you're history illiterate...it was Northern states. The entire country's economy was predicated on slavery and its perpetuation.

Thank you for that Marxist historical framework. You've articulated exactly the Marxist critique of American capitalism.

If your Marxist interpretation of history was correct, the northern economy would have collapsed after the Civil War. Of course, that didn't happen. Instead, the United States embarked on one of the greatest periods of innovation and expansion shortly thereafter.

Do you know when Karl Marx lived, you horse's ass?

 

[Toro]

So the souths only manufactured good consumer would have been the north......that seems logical.

Not the only one but certainly the most important one since it was the closest.

This must be why the north blockaded southern ports...to keep the goods from going....north.

The primary source of income for the South was farmed goods, not manufactured goods.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

American traitor and worthless piece of shit.

That isn't how the United States of America looks at it. We confiscated Lee's home and estate and turned it into a cemetery for Union troops. It was meant to be an insult to him that would continue forever. We bury our fallen patriots there to this day. To reinforce the insult a Memorial to Lincoln was built directly across the river from the Mansion and the cemetery.

Right, right... I was talking about Lee

You didn't say who you were talking about, dumbass.

 

[paperview]

 

[toxicmedia]

So the souths only manufactured good consumer would have been the north......that seems logical.

Not the only one but certainly the most important one since it was the closest.

This must be why the north blockaded southern ports...to keep the goods from going....north.

The primary source of income for the South was farmed goods, not manufactured goods.

Cotton, sugar, peanuts, pecans, and tobacco as I understand

 

[Toro]

The United States didn't but the South did? Do you hear yourself? Who do you think built the ships and operated the slave trade. I'll give you a hint since you're history illiterate...it was Northern states. The entire country's economy was predicated on slavery and its perpetuation.

Thank you for that Marxist historical framework. You've articulated exactly the Marxist critique of American capitalism.

If your Marxist interpretation of history was correct, the northern economy would have collapsed after the Civil War. Of course, that didn't happen. Instead, the United States embarked on one of the greatest periods of innovation and expansion shortly thereafter.

Do you know when Karl Marx lived, you horse's ass?

Yes. I had to read Marx as part of an anthology of economic philosophers along with economic history as part of the honours cirriculum for my degree in economics. That's why I can say that you are articulating a Marxist critique of American capitalism.

 

[Unkotare]

Lincoln was a tyrant, a dictator and a mass murderer. ...

AMERICANS recognize that Lincoln saved the Union from short-sighted, evil fools (or worse, like y...). What country do you live in? You didn't answer the last time I asked.

 

[Unkotare]

A confession signed at gunpoint is utterly worthless in a court of law. ....

That makes about ten times now that you've been completely discredited, humiliated, and proven an ignorant fool on this very thread!

 

[Unkotare]

With hero's like that no wonder we lost the war.

"We"?

 

[BlindBoo]

With hero's like that no wonder we lost the war.

"We"?

My ancestors were Rebels.

 

[Unkotare]

With hero's like that no wonder we lost the war.

"We"?

My ancestors were Rebels.

You're an American. WE won.

 

[Kondor3]

Robert E. Lee was a great general - keeping the Federals at-bay for nearly three years, after he assumed command of the main Confederate army in the East.

He suffered a couple of defeats, and screwed the pooch at Gettysburg, but won more than he lost, kept his casualties well below those of his Union counterparts in most of his battles, gave the Lincoln Administration a very rough time and many scares, for years, and caused Old Abe to hire and fire several generals, until they hit on U.S. Grant.

Lee hailed from an ancient and highly influential and honorable family of Old Virginia which had done great service to both the Colonies and to the United States, prior to the Revolution, during the Revolution itself, and since - as evidenced by Lee's own service in Mexico and before and after, right up to the early days of the Civil War itself.

He was soooooo well thought-of up North that the then-Commander of the Union Army (Winfield Scott), the President himself, and other members of the Administration, all wanted Bobby Lee to take command of the Union forces.

That kind of offer doesn't come along every day, nor does it come to those lacking the talent to successfully lead armies of men in such a grim business.

If memory serves correctly, the only reason that Lee resigned his commission in the US Army, and went home, to soon take-up a commission in the new Confederate Army, was because he could not bring himself to fight against his friends and neighbors and family and fellow Virginians.

How many of us ( those of us who have any sense whatsoever of personal honor and family and home loyalty, anyway ) could bring ourselves to fight against our friends and neighbors and family and fellow citizens of our home states, under similar circumstances?

Lee, ever mindful of his family's rich history and contributions to the formation of the United States and its sustenance, was a Union Man through and through, and was greatly vexed when obliged to resign his commission in the US Army, and grieved for the break between Virginia and the Union.

He was mortal and fallible, and made a number of key mistakes, but he was also a genuine military superstar and top performer who got far-reaching results, usually at a far lower cost than his adversaries.

He was an inherited-property slaveholder, but it did not sit easily on his brow, and he famously opined that he would gladly let go of all the slaves in the South to preserve the Union, if only the Union would not move militarily against the Southern States.

There was vastly more good than bad about Robert E. Lee, he was truly an American Patriot who was tragically maneuvered by fate and circumstances and developments to act against his own Union and patriotic sympathies, and he was man enough to give his best to his home State and its sisters, once he was thrust into such a role.

For the most part, he held the respect, admiration, loyalty and affection of his men throughout the Civil War, and afterwards, so long as his men had breath in their bodies - and he held the respect and grudging admiration of most of his enemies as well - a legend in the North as well as the South - and largely rehabilitated in the North after Lee died.

I am a Union Man through and through - always have been - always will be - in the context of the American Civil War.

But, like most of us, I can recognize a Great Man and a Great General when I see one - not a demigod - just a man - but a great one - and believe Robert E. Lee to be just such a man, regardless of what the revisionists and little wankers and race-card baiters and hyper-liberal scum around here would have us swallow without critique or opposition.

Bobby Lee draws the admiration of most Americans - Left, Right and Center - North and South and East and West. It takes a special breed - America-haters and socialist wankers and race-baiters and race-card players and intolerant and ignorant uber-or-hyper-liberals and shit-stirring trolls - to ignore and deny the greatness in such a man.

"...The Union, forever, hurrah, boys, hurrah..."

God bless the United States, and the shades of those who died and suffered in order to preserve the Union and to abolish slavery.

God bless the shades of those who died and suffered in the South, as well, misguided as they were at the time, as a way of reconciling and healing our beloved Republic.

And... Robert E. Lee was, indeed, an American Patriot and Southern Hero - and one of the greatest generals in American military history.

 

[CowboyTed]

Ulysses S. Grant
Twice elected president, Grant led the Republicans in their effort to remove the vestiges of Confederate nationalism and slavery, protect African-American citizenship, and defeat the Ku Klux Klan.

So he fought Slavery and Won.

Lee fought to keep Slavery and Lost.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Robert E. Lee was a great general - ...

So were a few Nazis, North Koreans, North Vietnamese, Japanese, Soviet Citizens...

 

[Kondor3]

Union Army Major General Joshua Chamberlain ( the former Union colonel who defended Little Round Top at Gettysburg and won the Congressional Medal of Honor for doing so, who would later become President of Bowdoin College, and Governor of Maine ) - who was grievously wounded several times by the Confederate enemy - understood the concept of healing the Nation, and the degree of respect that should be accorded an honorable (if misguided) enemy, as the very first step along the road to that healing and reconciliation of brothers, when he showed such firm respect to the surrendering Army of Northern Virginia at Appomattox...

========================================

"...The momentous meaning of this occasion impressed me deeply. I resolved to mark it by some token of recognition, which could be no other than a salute of arms. Well aware of the responsibility assumed, and of the criticisms that would follow, as the sequel proved, nothing of that kind could move me in the least. The act could be defended, if needful, by the suggestion that such a salute was not to the cause for which the flag of the Confederacy stood, but to its going down before the flag of the Union. My main reason, however, was one for which I sought no authority nor asked forgiveness. Before us in proud humiliation stood the embodiment of manhood: men whom neither toils and sufferings, nor the fact of death, nor disaster, nor hopelessness could bend from their resolve; standing before us now, thin, worn, and famished, but erect, and with eyes looking level into ours, waking memories that bound us together as no other bond;--was not such manhood to be welcomed back into a Union so tested and assured?

Instructions had been given; and when the head of each division column comes opposite our group, our bugle sounds the signal and instantly our whole line from right to left, regiment by regiment in succession, gives the soldiers salutation, from the "order arms" to the old "carry"--the marching salute. Gordon at the head of the column, riding with heavy spirit and. downcast face, catches the sound of shifting arms, looks up, and, taking the meaning, wheels superbly, making with himself and his horse one uplifted figure, with profound salutation as he drops the point of his sword to the boot toe; then facing to his own command, gives word for his successive brigades to pass us with the same position of the manual,--honor answering honor. On our part not a sound of trumpet more, nor roll of drum; not a cheer, nor word nor whisper of vain-glorying, nor motion of man standing again at the order, but an awed stillness rather, and breath-holding, as if it were the passing of the dead!

As each successive division masks our own, it halts, the men face inward towards us across the road, twelve feet away; then carefully "dress" their line, each captain taking pains for the good appearance of his company, worn and half starved as they were. The field and staff take their positions in the intervals of regiments; generals in rear of their commands. They fix bayonets, stack arms; then, hesitatingly, remove cartridge-boxes and lay them down. Lastly,-- reluctantly, with agony of expression,--they tenderly fold their flags, battle-worn and torn, blood-stained, heart-holding colors, and lay them down; some frenziedly rushing from the ranks, kneeling over them, clinging to them, pressing them to their lips with burning tears. And only the Flag of the Union greets the sky!..."

========================================

The respect, admiration and honors rendered by a man such as Chamberlain, and the easy-going and gentle reconciliation planned by LIncoln - both of them far closer to the situation than any of us - is good enough for me.

While it is evident that shit-stirrers sympathetic to both North and South would like to besmirch or denigrate the men of those times and their great deeds (and great mistakes), it is equally clear that the heroism and humanity of the men of those times stands on its own merits and shortcomings, and that they - and some of their leaders, such as Robert E. Lee - were mostly good and honorable men, regardless of what the shit-stirrers would have us believe.

That terrible struggle has been over now for 150 years - the issues have long-since been decided - we (nor even our parents and grandparents) are not of their time and do not have their understanding of the issues and do not have the visceral emotions pulling at us which burdened and maddened them.

We are not standing in their shoes but upon their shoulders. They were not demigods - merely ordinary human beings thrust into extraordinary times.

For the most part, they deserve our respect, and our honesty, in assessing their contributions - and that goes equally, for according Bobby Lee his share of props, kudos and brickbats.

( "...With malice towards none, with charity for all..." - Abraham Lincoln, second inaugural address, March 4, 1865, little more than a month before his own death )

We were all Americans before those times, we were all Americans during those times, and we are all Americans after those times.

In the final analysis, there is far more about Robert E. Lee to commend him, than to condemn him, and that should be enough, for most rational minds.

 

[Darkwind]

Union Army Major General Joshua Chamberlain ( the former Union colonel who defended Little Round Top at Gettysburg and won the Congressional Medal of Honor for doing so, who would later become President of Bowdoin College, and Governor of Maine ) - who was grievously wounded several times by the Confederate enemy - understood the concept of healing the Nation, and the degree of respect that should be accorded an honorable (if misguided) enemy, as the very first step along the road to that healing and reconciliation of brothers, when he showed such firm respect to the surrendering Army of Northern Virginia at Appomattox...

========================================

"...The momentous meaning of this occasion impressed me deeply. I resolved to mark it by some token of recognition, which could be no other than a salute of arms. Well aware of the responsibility assumed, and of the criticisms that would follow, as the sequel proved, nothing of that kind could move me in the least. The act could be defended, if needful, by the suggestion that such a salute was not to the cause for which the flag of the Confederacy stood, but to its going down before the flag of the Union. My main reason, however, was one for which I sought no authority nor asked forgiveness. Before us in proud humiliation stood the embodiment of manhood: men whom neither toils and sufferings, nor the fact of death, nor disaster, nor hopelessness could bend from their resolve; standing before us now, thin, worn, and famished, but erect, and with eyes looking level into ours, waking memories that bound us together as no other bond;--was not such manhood to be welcomed back into a Union so tested and assured?

Instructions had been given; and when the head of each division column comes opposite our group, our bugle sounds the signal and instantly our whole line from right to left, regiment by regiment in succession, gives the soldiers salutation, from the "order arms" to the old "carry"--the marching salute. Gordon at the head of the column, riding with heavy spirit and. downcast face, catches the sound of shifting arms, looks up, and, taking the meaning, wheels superbly, making with himself and his horse one uplifted figure, with profound salutation as he drops the point of his sword to the boot toe; then facing to his own command, gives word for his successive brigades to pass us with the same position of the manual,--honor answering honor. On our part not a sound of trumpet more, nor roll of drum; not a cheer, nor word nor whisper of vain-glorying, nor motion of man standing again at the order, but an awed stillness rather, and breath-holding, as if it were the passing of the dead!

As each successive division masks our own, it halts, the men face inward towards us across the road, twelve feet away; then carefully "dress" their line, each captain taking pains for the good appearance of his company, worn and half starved as they were. The field and staff take their positions in the intervals of regiments; generals in rear of their commands. They fix bayonets, stack arms; then, hesitatingly, remove cartridge-boxes and lay them down. Lastly,-- reluctantly, with agony of expression,--they tenderly fold their flags, battle-worn and torn, blood-stained, heart-holding colors, and lay them down; some frenziedly rushing from the ranks, kneeling over them, clinging to them, pressing them to their lips with burning tears. And only the Flag of the Union greets the sky!..."

========================================

The respect, admiration and honors rendered by a man such as Chamberlain, and the easy-going and gentle reconciliation planned by LIncoln - both of them far closer to the situation than any of us, is good enough for me.

While it is evident that shit-stirrers sympathetic to both North and South would like to besmirch or denigrate the men of those times and their great deeds and mistakes, it is equally clear that their heroism and humanity stands on its own merits and shortcomings, and that they - and some of their leaders, such as Robert E. Lee - were mostly good and honorable men, regardless of what the shit-stirrers would have us believe.

That terrible struggle has been over now for 150 years - the issues have long-since been decided - we (nor even our parents and grandparents) are not of their time and do not have their understanding of the issues and do not have the visceral emotions pulling at us which burdened and maddened them.

We are not standing in their shoes but upon their shoulders. They were not demigods - merely ordinary human beings thrust into extraordinary times.

For the most part, they deserve our respect, and our honesty, in assessing their contributions - and that goes for according Bobby Lee his share of props, kudos and brickbats.

( "...With malice towards none, with charity for all..." - Abraham Lincoln, second inaugural address, March 4, 1865, little more than a month before his own death )

We were all Americans before those times, we were all Americans during those times, and we are all Americans after those times.

In the final analysis, there is far more about Robert E. Lee to commend him, than to condemn him, and that should be enough, for most rational minds.

Agreed. As I said, hyperbole and emotionalism about an era and the history of the civil war are not needed as the record of the men and the deeds accomplished is available for any to discover. Hey have only to type in a search field at any search engine, or go to a public library.

 

[candycorn]

Love what happened to his house....we should do stuff like that today.

Bitch.

We should open Arlington South in Crawford, TX and do the same to Bush's ranch.

 

[candycorn]

Love what happened to his house....we should do stuff like that today.

You mean you favor having the government expropriate people's property?

I'm not surprised that you don't give a crap about the Bill of Rights.

He committed treason and forfeited his holdings...that they buried war dead on his back porch was fitting...as is your worship of a treasonous figure in American history.

Yeah, but later in 1864, the SCOTUS ruled the U.S. government had illegally confiscated the home and acreage, and it was returned along with 1100 acres to Lee's son.

Oh well, whatcha going to do?