Remembering Robert E. Lee: American Patriot and Southern Hero

[Liminal]

I'm really not interested in superficial equivalencies. I appreciate a more in depth assessment of history.

if this were true you'd read a book, but instead you throw your precious pearls before the hoi polloi @ usmb?

You are as much an inconsequential non entity as you were when I joined this forum a few days ago.

 

[bendog]

I think when you attempt to explain history in the context of contemporary thinking you do yourself a disservice because you really aren't trying to understand historic events or historic figures.

There is no historical context needed. You either treated people you considered your inferiors well or you didn't.

I'm pretty sure you don't need any.

No one does. You either treat people well, even if you don't believe they are your equal, or you don't.

Lee more than likely considered black people to be little more than animals. You know anyone that mistreats animals and is considered honorable?

Probably so, but blacks were not seen as equals by many, or even a majority, of northerners.

Absolutely, though I do believe most of the abolitionists were northerners. That is actually one reason I admire Lincoln. He was a racist and he still ended up doing the right thing by freeing the slaves.

Racist? Yeah, but a person needs to be seen in the context of his times. For example, 1938 Germany was in ways the most culturally advanced country, yet they devised a program to murder six million in an effort to eradicate a cultural group from existence. Lincoln and even Lee were not near that level.

But Lee didn't believe in secession, nor really in slavery over the long term. I can see sitting it out and not fighting for the north, but it takes a level of moral ambivalence to run the ANV for 3 plus years.

I mean the soldiers of the AOP reelected Lincoln knowing at least 33% would die, yet they did so believing preserving the Union was worth their sacrifice. The confederate soldiers fought to preserve their communities, regardless of whether they personally owned slaves. And most who did own slaves, owned only a family, who didn't eat much differently than their family. I go to a battle park and it's a pretty sacred place, imo.

Lee's actions of leading the "lost cause," which he not just believed was morally suspect but also doomed to military failure just seem to be curiously giving up to the powers of fate. It's really southern. And I live here. Just going along with the flow.

 

[bendog]

There is nothing in the Constitution prohibiting secession.

True...so it would have been interesting to see the Confederacy.....IF they had not been stupid and started a war by firing on a Federal Installation.

IF secession is legal, then Ft Sumter was the territory of a foreign sovereign state that had every legal and moral right to kick out the trespassers residing therein.

You just contradicted yourself.

Secession wasn't legal, but that stealing thieving lying Yankee bustard Lincoln never paid us for the slaves, and that was unconstitutional.

don't go there. The slaves owned themselves first, which was stolen from them. You are going down the rabbit hole of reparations.

Hmmm, well, legally the ones born here were born into slavery. Not that is was "right," in our historical context, or even in any context, as slavery had long ended in Europe. Of course I'm just stirring the pot. But honestly, the legal pretext of the Emancipation is dubious. It feed only those in confederate states. The power justifying it was the states were in rebellion and gave up their status in rebelling ... yet the entire exercise of invading the South was based on the belief that the states could not leave.

 

[Baruch Menachem]

It can be argued either way, but in the end, the North won. But, as I noted, the bustards never paid for the property/slaves they took form their legal owners.

Slavery became illegal and therefore there was never anything taken away from 'legal' owners.

Keeping their lives instead of being hung for treason was the best deal they could of hoped for.

Ah, where does the federal govt derive a power to declare legal property no longer legal without compensating those losing the property?

People weren't property after the civil war.

this is an ugly rabbit hole. The emancipation proclamation was legal because it was a war measure. Slavery was still legal until 1868 and eliminatinated by constitutional amendment, which basically said the fifth amendment on taking a special class of property without compensation was ok. It was the ugly that was perpetrated by the condoning slavery in the constitution finally laid to rest.

I believe it was eliminated by various means before 1868. In much of the south slaves were declared contraband goods. Missouri bought them outright in 1863.

 

[bripat9643]

It can be argued either way, but in the end, the North won. But, as I noted, the bustards never paid for the property/slaves they took form their legal owners.

Slavery became illegal and therefore there was never anything taken away from 'legal' owners.

Keeping their lives instead of being hung for treason was the best deal they could of hoped for.

Ah, where does the federal govt derive a power to declare legal property no longer legal without compensating those losing the property?

People weren't property after the civil war.

this is an ugly rabbit hole. The emancipation proclamation was legal because it was a war measure.

Really? Where does the Constitution say that?

 

[nodoginnafight]

Just because you slept through history class doesn't mean you get to write your own.

 

[squeeze berry]

No military base anywhere except the USA can be a "permanent" base without the hosting country agreeing.

There was only one hosting country for Ft. Sumter. The USA.

That would include military bases in states the secede. You just contradicted your own argument. Thanks for admitting I am right.

You're wrong about a lot of things, but Robert E. Lee was still one of the greatest generals in history.

He was....but whether that was a good thing or not....his greatness prolonged a war and caused many more deaths.

No doubt about that, there were other great Confederate generals, Stonewall Jackson comes to mind, but Robert E Lee represented an implacable icon who embodied all the concepts of honor and duty, he was a man of principle. Things that are essentially meaningless to most people today, but were very real and tangible for people of the time.

There's no honor in raping your slaves.

link for Lee raping his slaves or Jackson or be considered a lair

 

[squeeze berry]

Robert E. Lee.
His Brutality To His Slaves.

Let's hear from one of Lee's slaves on how benevolent he was::​

My name is Wesley Norris; I was born a slave on the plantation of George Parke Custis; after the death of Mr. Custis, Gen. Lee, who had been made executor of the estate, assumed control of the slaves, in number about seventy; it was the general impression among the slaves of Mr. Custis that on his death they should be forever free; in fact this statement had been made to them by Mr. C. years before; at his death we were informed by Gen. Lee that by the conditions of the will we must remain slaves for five years;

I remained with Gen. Lee for about seventeen months, when my sister Mary, a cousin of ours, and I determined to run away, which we did in the year 1859; we had already reached Westminster, in Maryland, on our way to the North, when we were apprehended and thrown into prison, and Gen. Lee notified of our arrest; we remained in prison fifteen days, when we were sent back to Arlington; we were immediately taken before Gen. Lee, who demanded the reason why we ran away; we frankly told him that we considered ourselves free;

he then told us he would teach us a lesson we never would forget; he then ordered us to the barn, where, in his presence, we were tied firmly to posts by a Mr. Gwin, our overseer, who was ordered by Gen. Lee to strip us to the waist and give us fifty lashes each, excepting my sister, who received but twenty; we were accordingly stripped to the skin by the overseer, who, however, had sufficient humanity to decline whipping us; accordingly Dick Williams, a county constable, was called in, who gave us the number of lashes ordered; Gen. Lee, in the meantime, stood by, and frequently enjoined Williams to lay it on well, an injunction which he did not fail to heed; not satisfied with simply lacerating our naked flesh,

Gen. Lee then ordered the overseer to thoroughly wash our backs with brine, which was done. After this my cousin and myself were sent to Hanover Court-House jail, my sister being sent to Richmond to an agent to be hired; we remained in jail about a week, when we were sent to Nelson county, where we were hired out by Gen. Lee’s agent to work on the Orange and Alexander railroad; we remained thus employed for about seven months, and were then sent to Alabama, and put to work on what is known as the Northeastern railroad; in January, 1863, we were sent to Richmond, from which place I finally made my escape through the rebel lines to freedom; I have nothing further to say; what I have stated is true in every particular, and I can at any time bring at least a dozen witnesses, both white and black, to substantiate my statements: I am at present employed by the Government; and am at work in the National Cemetery on Arlington Heights, where I can be found by those who desire further particulars; my sister referred to is at present employed by the French Minister at Washington, and will confirm my statement."

Robert E. Lee His Brutality to His Slaves 1866 . By Wesley Norris in NATIONAL ANTI-SLAVERY STANDARD Vol. XXVI. No. 49 April 14 1866 . Whole No. 1 349 Fair Use Repository​

your premise has zero historical context

corporal punishment was common in those days even for relatively minor offenses.

firing squad for desertion for example?

your post is a classic strawman argument

 

[squeeze berry]

So....you claim ownership of that term. Interesting that you admit it.

I have no qualm about the practices you people involved yourselves in...

who is "you people" ?

People that knowingly fucked their cousins and other relatives for the sole purpose of maintaining a social position.

what about those that fuck their sisters, sell them into slavery, and still have no social standing?

Those would be the poor white southerners, the idiots that were duped into a fool's errand.
I was referring to the so called southern aristocrats...

whose great grandchildren and great great grandchildren have an achievement gap?

I'll wait for an intelligent answer that I know is not possible

 

[bripat9643]

Just because you slept through history class doesn't mean you get to write your own.

It would help if you quoted the material you were referring to.

 

[squeeze berry]

I'm really not interested in superficial equivalencies. I appreciate a more in depth assessment of history.

if this were true you'd read a book, but instead you throw your precious pearls before the hoi polloi @ usmb?

You are as much an inconsequential non entity as you were when I joined this forum a few days ago.

dainty has a high opinion of himself

his mirror is his lover, well that and the twins

 

[Ravi]

Are you now agreeing that Lee wasn't an honorable man?

I think when you attempt to explain history in the context of contemporary thinking you do yourself a disservice because you really aren't trying to understand historic events or historic figures.

There is no historical context needed. You either treated people you considered your inferiors well or you didn't.

I'm pretty sure you don't need any.

No one does. You either treat people well, even if you don't believe they are your equal, or you don't.

Lee more than likely considered black people to be little more than animals. You know anyone that mistreats animals and is considered honorable?

I'm really not interested in superficial equivalencies. I appreciate a more in depth assessment of history.

Of course you do. It makes it easier to excuse bad behavior.

 

[nodoginnafight]

Apparently Lee was not what a lot of his racist sheep like to think he was:

LEE S LIGHT SKINNED SLAVE GIRLS

 

[Ravi]

The military bases in Iraq were never meant to be permanent US facilities. Ft. Sumter was always a possession of the US, and always meant to be.

Wrong, one of those bases was intended to be permanent. We have been asked to leave military bases all over the world. Do you actually believe the U.S. government would ever refuse to leave?

No military base anywhere except the USA can be a "permanent" base without the hosting country agreeing.

There was only one hosting country for Ft. Sumter. The USA.

Better tell those men at Gitmo.

Gitmo is leased.

 

[squeeze berry]

Apparently Lee was not what a lot of his racist sheep like to think he was:

LEE S LIGHT SKINNED SLAVE GIRLS

anyone can say anything 150 years or more after the fact

we need Maury to clear this up.. no Maury, no proof

 

[DriftingSand]

I do believe that slavery was an issue but I don't believe that it was the primary issue. Most Southerners did not own slaves nor did all Southerners agree with slavery...

Most Southerners did not have a vote in secession. Slavery was THE issue. Stop lying and accept historical fact

No ... money was the issue. Slavery was a secondary issue because most folks weren't effected by it. Most southerners didn't have slaves nor did they see what it was like on the various plantations. Not only that ... some wealthy northerners had slaves. War always boils down to money, power, and control.

I realize that you, like so many other Americans, have been thoroughly brainwashed and programmed. It's the norm.

 

[bripat9643]

The military bases in Iraq were never meant to be permanent US facilities. Ft. Sumter was always a possession of the US, and always meant to be.

Wrong, one of those bases was intended to be permanent. We have been asked to leave military bases all over the world. Do you actually believe the U.S. government would ever refuse to leave?

No military base anywhere except the USA can be a "permanent" base without the hosting country agreeing.

There was only one hosting country for Ft. Sumter. The USA.

Better tell those men at Gitmo.

Gitmo is leased.

The only reason we still have it is the fact that Cuba is too weak to kick us out. Otherwise, we would be gone.

 

[saintmichaeldefendthem]

Fort Sumter was at the heart of the central controversy between the North and South. Tariffs were imposed and collected from merchant ships entering the harbor. It was also a key hub for the blockade set up by the North. It's strategic value made it a high priority for seizure.

It seems all of this is news to you. Are you sure you want to keep revealing your ignorance of American history?

There was no blockade of any southern ports at the time Fort Sumter was attacked.

Yes there was.

I'm sorry but you are simply incorrect about that. In fact weapons from northern factories continued to be sent south to fill contracts for state militias right up until the attack on Fort Sumter.

Abraham Lincoln ordered the blockade on April 1, 1861, 2 weeks before the assault. So yes, I was correct.

Wrong, Lincoln ordered the blockade on April 19, 1861.

Wrong. Lincoln responded to a letter written by Governor Pickens to then President Buchanan in January 1861 demanding he forfeit claims to Fort Sumter. He set up a blockade that was weak and easily outran by faster ships. In April, he strengthened the blockade and made preparations to retake the fort. In fact the first skirmish occurred between Southern forces and Union Navy on January 9th.

We can argue about when the blockade officially happened, but there's no debate that Fort Sumter was a vital hub for Union naval operations....no matter what it was doing.

 

[Ravi]

The military bases in Iraq were never meant to be permanent US facilities. Ft. Sumter was always a possession of the US, and always meant to be.

Wrong, one of those bases was intended to be permanent. We have been asked to leave military bases all over the world. Do you actually believe the U.S. government would ever refuse to leave?

No military base anywhere except the USA can be a "permanent" base without the hosting country agreeing.

There was only one hosting country for Ft. Sumter. The USA.

Better tell those men at Gitmo.

Gitmo is leased.

The only reason we still have it is the fact that Cuba is too weak to kick us out. Otherwise, we would be gone.

No, they like the money. How funny that Dubya was free to trade with Cuba when the rest of us weren't.

 

[DigitalDrifter]

Were still paying for the Civil War by the way, as there is one child left of a Civil War vet that is still on the Civil War payroll.