Retiring the A-10

[Vrenn]

Were you even alive in 1991? The first shots in Desert Storm came from F-117's flying out of King Khalid Air Base in KSA, and Tomahawk cruise missiles from USN ships in the Persian Gulf.

And AC-130's are great, but they won't fly under a cloud deck and neither will F-35's, so your troops on the ground are SOL if they need CAS and it's not a sunny day...

Little boy, I retired from the United States Air Force and was part of the training for Desert Storm. I just let you in on something that was not widely advertised that allowed the first choppers and A-10s to cross a certain line un detected. And the AC doesn't need to fly UNDER the cloud deck. That cloud deck helps to hide him so he can come a little lower and get even a more defined picture.

I came up with a saying for the A-10. ICUUCMe. Meaning both sees each other and both can shoot each other. This is assuming that air superiority has been accomplished. The normal A-10 attack is from 10K to 20K with guided ordinance. And he's not very good at that so he fires a lot of it. Not the most pinpointed method ever seen. The AH-64 is a better pick for close in since that is what he was designed for. But from 20K, the AC can hit a running man every time. Destroy a specific vehicle out of a convoy, or level a cement warehouse and then move off to his next assignment without returning home.

The point being is, with the fighters being able to handle the long range attacks, the AH-64 and the AC-130J more than able to handle the up close and personal why do we need the A-10? Remember, we've used the B-52 for CAS as well when needed.

 

[Vrenn]

Not as cheaply as the A-10.
And the A-10 is extremely effective in covering our troops on the ground and we have a lot of A-10's as in 281 of them. While we only have 47 AC-130 Gunships.

True, but USAF has X number of ACs on order and screaming for more. In a Middle Eastern fight, the AC rules the battlefield and can stay out for hours on end hitting numerous targets.

 

[Vrenn]

My bad. Yes, there were 2 air defense radars that were taken out by the Apaches about 1/2 hour before the F-117 hit the C2 site at Nukhayb Air Base.

I have a soft spot for the Hogs.

That apache mission was the dumbest mission ever. They were still looking for a mission for the AH-64. Had even one chopper been visually seen the whole thing would have fallen apart. They got away with it because special ops were out there removing prying eyes on the ground. Then the Army tried to misuse the Apache once again when they attacked the Red Revolutionary Guard at the Bagdad Airport. They got chewed up. One would thing that USAF would send in the A-10s but instead, they sent in a wing of loaded F-16Cs and allowed the Army to all but walk in.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

True, but USAF has X number of ACs on order and screaming for more. In a Middle Eastern fight, the AC rules the battlefield and can stay out for hours on end hitting numerous targets.

I still think the A-10 has an important role to play in protecting our troops on the ground.
The AC 130 is a slow cumbersome beast which can be easily hit with modern air defense system.
While yes I know they have countermeasures it would sure as hell be a lot more expensive to replace than the A-10.
While both craft can take off and land on a shitty landing strip the A-10's can be spread out in areas of need while we dont have enough AC-130's to do the same. While I love the AC-130's we havent used them against an enemy with advanced air defenses.
Of course if we have air superiority that lessens the risk greatly,for both aircraft.

 

[para bellum]

Little boy, I retired from the United States Air Force and was part of the training for Desert Storm.

Thanks but I didn't need the confirmation, I already knew you were full of shit from your other threads.

 

[Mushroom]

The AC 130 is a slow cumbersome beast which can be easily hit with modern air defense system.

They also can only be used in an environment where there is zero air threat. They have absolutely no air-to-air capability, and being a transport are sitting ducks if any fighters get into an area.

The A-10 actually has scored air-to-air kills, and mounts two AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles so at least it has some air-to-air capability.

The AC-130 has none. It's can't even realistically use its guns, as they are all mounted on the left side of the aircraft facing outwards.

Why people keep forgetting that the largest threat in an actual battlefield with a major country is not ground based air defense, I have no idea. Even something like an antiquated MiG-21 or A-4 would shoot one down with ease.

 

[Vrenn]

I still think the A-10 has an important role to play in protecting our troops on the ground.

And I think it's still trying to find a mission. The mission it was designed for is gone. It's the F-111 of Attack Fighters.

The AC 130 is a slow cumbersome beast which can be easily hit with modern air defense system.

Top speed of a slick A-10 439mph. When you load him for bear, you are going to be lucky to get much over 250mph. His load is a huge drag. Loaded like that, his radius range will be just over 130miles radius. You want him to do cas, unload him add more gas, and you might get him out to 200 mile radius with a 1 hour loiter time. The A-10 replaced the A-1E which had about the same loadout (2 less weapons points), was slightly slower but could fly 1000 miles with a decent weapons load and still have a decent loiter time.

Now we move on to the AC-130J. This is the Model USAF is accepting now and has a few in service. Top Speed 416 mph loaded. Range 3000 miles loaded. The older ACs could only muster 300mph so they were about equal to the A-10 there (give or take). But the J has cannons and guided munitions and can stand off if it wishes. Plus, it can sit at 20,000 feet and hit that truck, running person or level that half acre cement warehouse to the ground. All while being out of reach to the smaller surface to air weapons.

Both are more than a little susceptible to the larger radar and heat guided ones. But not of the shoulder fire variety. You have to use mark one eyeballs to find your target. If you can't see it you don't know where to point your tracker at. It could be a friendly, you know and that missile is the only one you have with you at the time. I mean, it also could be big wood pecker. But the A-10 has some traits that helps to minimize the damage from manpads. (for another discussion) But if you are getting him by a manpad in your AC you are totally F***king up and you hope it does hit one of your engines because hitting your ammo makes a huge fireball in the sky. Hitting one of your engines just means a long and slow flight home to change your shorts.

Both operates with the idea that you have established air superiority and taken out the longer ranged radar guided missile sites. Until you do, neither bird can really be safe. Up until then, it's the F-18E and F-15E for fighters and the heavy bombers jobs using stand offs. The AC just keeps you a little more honest in this regard.

While yes I know they have countermeasures it would sure as hell be a lot more expensive to replace than the A-10.
While both craft can take off and land on a shitty landing strip the A-10's can be spread out in areas of need while we dont have enough AC-130's to do the same. While I love the AC-130's we havent used them against an enemy with advanced air defenses.
Of course if we have air superiority that lessens the risk greatly,for both aircraft.

Actually, the AC-130J needs a pretty good runway. It's not a trash hauler. He's heavy, real heavy. (and he's my brother....sorry, couldn't help myself). The point here is, if you do get air superiority and neurtalize the SAMS both can operate pretty much with impunity as long as you stay above ground fire capability.

Let's look at your forward mobility of the A-10 versus orbiting AC-130s. The A-10 is good for maybe one or two strikes and then he has to get home for refueling. His range is crap. The A-1E did a much better job but just cost a lot more to operate. (And the A-1E has 2 Mig kills. ) The AC is good for right around 10 hours whether he's in orbit or slagging a small city. By the time the A-10 gets off the ground, the AC has already done the mission and went back to his orbiting station. And yes, the mission for the AC costs a lot more than the mission for the A-10 but you get what you paid for.

The point here is, the A-10 was probably never needed since it's mission never came about. They had to create a mission for it. So they stole a mission from the one Aircraft that was specifically created for CAS and that was the AC-130 that spent it's own time being used in created mission doing the only really mission the A-10 would have been good at, transporation removal service . In reality, CAS isn't on single Aircraft. It's many. When a crew goes down, EVERONE in the area becomes CAS. During 1970, the first to get there were usually the F-4s or F-8s. When the A-7s shown up, the Fs left. Then the A1-E came and the A-7s left low on fuel and out of ordinance. The A1s had the weapons load and staying power to make the enemy put their heads down. Then the UH and AH s showed for the the actual rescue mission, it stirred up a hornets nest and the A1s went back to work. While I can see the A-10 being part of this chain, I just can't see it being an important part of it.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Oh yes, as that has been so effective in Ukraine. And Syria. And anywhere else there is fighting going on.

Well, the Ukraine is a transitional war, it's had huge amounts of hacking, but Putin is a 20th century kind of guy.

 

[Vrenn]

They also can only be used in an environment where there is zero air threat. They have absolutely no air-to-air capability, and being a transport are sitting ducks if any fighters get into an area.

The A-10 actually has scored air-to-air kills, and mounts two AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles so at least it has some air-to-air capability.

The AC-130 has none. It's can't even realistically use its guns, as they are all mounted on the left side of the aircraft facing outwards.

Why people keep forgetting that the largest threat in an actual battlefield with a major country is not ground based air defense, I have no idea. Even something like an antiquated MiG-21 or A-4 would shoot one down with ease.

We had one Mig-17 fly on the left side of an AC-130A. The A fired on it but so did a F-4. They gave the kill to the Fighter because everyone knows a cargo plane can't shoot down a fighter.

 

[Vrenn]

Thanks but I didn't need the confirmation, I already knew you were full of shit from your other threads.

Say goodnight, Gracie

 

[JamesE]

Will One Of These Experimental Aircraft Replace The Legendary A-10 Warthog?

There’s a damn good reason the A-10 Thunderbolt II, lovingly nicknamed the “Warthog” by U.S. Air Force pilots, is considered the best close-air support

taskandpurpose.com

 

[Mushroom]

Will One Of These Experimental Aircraft Replace The Legendary A-10 Warthog?

There’s a damn good reason the A-10 Thunderbolt II, lovingly nicknamed the “Warthog” by U.S. Air Force pilots, is considered the best close-air support

taskandpurpose.com

One I noticed missing right away was the OV-10. That is an aircraft that the Marines used for decades in many roles. Air insertion of up to 10 Marines, observation, evacuation, CAS and others were all done by this workhorse for decades. Over almost any Marine base in the 1980s and early 1990s they were a common sight.

An updated variant of that could do the same roles.



Almost any Brigade-Division level training exercise we held at Camp Lejune had these involved. We generally considered it "our A-10", as it would do the same kinds of CAS operations that the A-10 did for the Army. And I am a big believer that a modernized version could do even better.

 

[Vrenn]

Will One Of These Experimental Aircraft Replace The Legendary A-10 Warthog?

There’s a damn good reason the A-10 Thunderbolt II, lovingly nicknamed the “Warthog” by U.S. Air Force pilots, is considered the best close-air support

taskandpurpose.com

They would still have a mission. The A-10 never really did. And the cost of one of these is a fraction of the cost of an A-10.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

They would still have a mission. The A-10 never really did. And the cost of one of these is a fraction of the cost of an A-10.

Sure it did.
It's a tank buster as well as ground support and it does both very well.

 

[Vrenn]

Sure it did.
It's a tank buster as well as ground support and it does both very well.

Since the upgrades to the T-72 making it a fantastic ground to air mobile gun installation, the A-10 lost that ability. Of course, the A-10 can still be used for attack on medium, light and transports. That works about once until they put a couple or three Tanks are added and the A-10 now has to use standoff missiles. The Buff would be a better choic.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Since the upgrades to the T-72 making it a fantastic ground to air mobile gun installation, the A-10 lost that ability. Of course, the A-10 can still be used for attack on medium, light and transports. That works about once until they put a couple or three Tanks are added and the A-10 now has to use standoff missiles. The Buff would be a better choic.

What upgrades were those?

 

[Mushroom]

What upgrades were those?

It mounts a 12.7mm anti-aircraft machine gun. In other words, it is the same caliber and fires essentially the same as the US M2 .50 cal.

Obviously, something that would devastate an A-10. Because we all know that an M2 can take out an A-10 with ease.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

The A-10's mission to destroy tanks is becoming obsolete, and there are cheaper ways to take out passenger cars and motorcycles.

Like what?

 

[westwall]

Were you even alive in 1991? The first shots in Desert Storm came from F-117's flying out of King Khalid Air Base in KSA, and Tomahawk cruise missiles from USN ships in the Persian Gulf.

And AC-130's are great, but they won't fly under a cloud deck and neither will F-35's, so your troops on the ground are SOL if they need CAS and it's not a sunny day...

Nope, the first shots were Hellfire missiles fired from Apaches that knocked out surveillance radars that were positioned along the border.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

One I noticed missing right away was the OV-10. That is an aircraft that the Marines used for decades in many roles. Air insertion of up to 10 Marines, observation, evacuation, CAS and others were all done by this workhorse for decades. Over almost any Marine base in the 1980s and early 1990s they were a common sight.

An updated variant of that could do the same roles.



Almost any Brigade-Division level training exercise we held at Camp Lejune had these involved. We generally considered it "our A-10", as it would do the same kinds of CAS operations that the A-10 did for the Army. And I am a big believer that a modernized version could do even better.

The last US aircraft was retired 28 years ago.