RightWingers...If Torture Techniques Are Truly Responsible

[Claudette]

For getting the intelligence that led to the discovery and killing of Osama Bin Laden, then...

a.) What SPECIFIC information was it?

and

2.) WHY wasn't it done 6 or even 4 years ago?

What you people want us to buy is that somehow, some kind of VERY important information was garnered from beating the living snot out of some Muslims that is just NOW baring fruit.

Anyone who would actually believe that should have their head examined.

Can you enlighten the rest of us?

First off, according to the Justice Department at the time, and most people today. The Techniques you refer to are not torture.

Second, To answer you question the Reports I have heard suggest the Name of the Currier that we were able to follow to Bin Laden was originally given up Under some form of Enhanced Interrogation.

More importantly however is the fact that when we say Bush gave Obama the tools to get Osama. We are not just referring to Enhanced Interrogations. There is also the fact that Bush made it so we can hold Enemy combatants indefinitely. If Obama had his way they would be given Myranda Rights and Not be able to be held indefinitely with out trial.

I have also heard reports that before KSM was water boarded he gave up nothing, After he was he gave up info much more readily. Which is of course always the case when Interrogating Someone. Once you get them to give up some info, it usually opens of the flood gates and you can get more out of them. In this case the idea is Water Boarding (which I do not believe rises to the level of Torture) and things like sleep deprivation. Broke KSM and the other 2 guys we know we did it to. Once broken they talked even more, and at least in part helped lead to finding Osama.

You can deny it if you want, but the CIA, former Defense Sec, and many others all say it is the truth.

Ditto CM.

Bush gave Obama the tools to catch OBL. As soon as he became POTUS Obama said no more waterboarding. We have lost a great tool to protect America.

The military handbook is whats being used now. Hell. Holder is looking into prosecuting the CIA interrogators. I don't think it will go anywhere but he's looking at it.

I seriously wonder what world Obama, Holder and all like minded folks live in?? Values are nice but they ain't worth one American life.

We have an enemy who kills indiscriminatly. The only thing they value is their religion. Human life means nothing. Hell. They would have murdered half of NYC if they could have on 9/11.

AQ is still out there and believe me they will continue to attack us any way they can and we need every tool in order to combat them and keep America safe.

 

[Claudette]

Bush pussied around, talked a lot of trashed and generally botched up the entire thing almost beyond repair.

Obama came in, recognizing what needed to be done, and got it done.

And now....Bin Laden is dead.

Bottom line.

While Obama does deserve the credit for having the balls to call for that strike he would never have had the intel for said strike if not for the Bush administration.

Sorry to burst your Oh so righteous bubble but enhanced interrogation works.

 

[HUGGY]

For getting the intelligence that led to the discovery and killing of Osama Bin Laden, then...

a.) What SPECIFIC information was it?

and

2.) WHY wasn't it done 6 or even 4 years ago?

What you people want us to buy is that somehow, some kind of VERY important information was garnered from beating the living snot out of some Muslims that is just NOW baring fruit.

Anyone who would actually believe that should have their head examined.

Can you enlighten the rest of us?

First off, according to the Justice Department at the time, and most people today. The Techniques you refer to are not torture.

Second, To answer you question the Reports I have heard suggest the Name of the Currier that we were able to follow to Bin Laden was originally given up Under some form of Enhanced Interrogation.

More importantly however is the fact that when we say Bush gave Obama the tools to get Osama. We are not just referring to Enhanced Interrogations. There is also the fact that Bush made it so we can hold Enemy combatants indefinitely. If Obama had his way they would be given Myranda Rights and Not be able to be held indefinitely with out trial.

I have also heard reports that before KSM was water boarded he gave up nothing, After he was he gave up info much more readily. Which is of course always the case when Interrogating Someone. Once you get them to give up some info, it usually opens of the flood gates and you can get more out of them. In this case the idea is Water Boarding (which I do not believe rises to the level of Torture) and things like sleep deprivation. Broke KSM and the other 2 guys we know we did it to. Once broken they talked even more, and at least in part helped lead to finding Osama.

You can deny it if you want, but the CIA, former Defense Sec, and many others all say it is the truth.

Ditto CM.

Bush gave Obama the tools to catch OBL. As soon as he became POTUS Obama said no more waterboarding. We have lost a great tool to protect America.

The military handbook is whats being used now. Hell. Holder is looking into prosecuting the CIA interrogators. I don't think it will go anywhere but he's looking at it.

I seriously wonder what world Obama, Holder and all like minded folks live in?? Values are nice but they ain't worth one American life.

We have an enemy who kills indiscriminatly. The only thing they value is their religion. Human life means nothing. Hell. They would have murdered half of NYC if they could have on 9/11.

AQ is still out there and believe me they will continue to attack us any way they can and we need every tool in order to combat them and keep America safe.

You can only hope and pray..

Bet this Sport...They are a whole lot LESS out there today than they were 10 days ago.

 

[Claudette]

Hope and pray we are attacked??

What the hell are you smoking dude??

As for there being less. I sure hope so. I hope our military kills every single one of those dirbags.

 

[HUGGY]

Hope and pray we are attacked??

What the hell are you smoking dude??

As for there being less. I sure hope so. I hope our military kills every single one of those dirbags.

Me?...nothin...BUT!! thanks for the reminder...my toast is burning!!!



Seriously...I do believe there are some ..not necessarily here... that do profit from creating and maintaining boogymen. You think all that war machinery and munitions was "donated"?

Puuleeez! You really think it saddens GE when we go to war?

How about those that speculate on oil futures? Bet it breaks their little black hearts when they profit from unrest in the mid East.

 

[Hot Wire]

For getting the intelligence that led to the discovery and killing of Osama Bin Laden, then...

a.) What SPECIFIC information was it?

and

2.) WHY wasn't it done 6 or even 4 years ago?

What you people want us to buy is that somehow, some kind of VERY important information was garnered from beating the living snot out of some Muslims that is just NOW baring fruit.

Anyone who would actually believe that should have their head examined.

Can you enlighten the rest of us?

Top secret obama lover.Iam proud to hate evil and your fascist punk obama is EVIL!

 

[yota5]

For getting the intelligence that led to the discovery and killing of Osama Bin Laden, then...

a.) What SPECIFIC information was it?

and

2.) WHY wasn't it done 6 or even 4 years ago?

What you people want us to buy is that somehow, some kind of VERY important information was garnered from beating the living snot out of some Muslims that is just NOW baring fruit.

Anyone who would actually believe that should have their head examined.

Can you enlighten the rest of us?

Your post is full of all of the hysterical bluster, and incoherent babble that is evident when ever an uninformed liberal attempts to involve themselves in informed debate. Every point that you raise has been covered Ad nauseam in the media. Yet all of that seems to have blown over your little pin head.

Here is a question for you. All military aviators, and spec ops, must complete SERE training. One aspect of this training is they must submit to water boarding. If this practice is illegal, immoral, and tortuous then let's bring the CinC B. H. Obama, up on charges as a war criminal. Or maybe you only care about the well being of our enemies. What say you?

"The SERE program, was originally designed to be defensive in nature and was used to train pilots and other soldiers on how to resist harsh interrogation techniques and torture were they to fall into enemy hands.[17][20] The program subjected trainees to torture techniques such as “waterboarding . . . sleep deprivation, isolation, exposure to extreme temperatures, enclosure in tiny spaces, bombardment with agonizing sounds at extremely damaging decibel levels, and religious and sexual humiliation.”[23]

Under CIA supervision, Miller and Jessen adapted SERE into an offensive program designed to train CIA agents on how to use the harsh interrogation techniques to gather information from terrorist detainees.[16][17][20] In fact, all of the tactics listed above would later be reported in the International Committee of the Red Cross Report on Fourteen High Value Detainees in CIA Custody as having been used on Abu Zubaydah.[24][25]"

Enhanced interrogation techniques - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Wicked Jester]

First off, according to the Justice Department at the time, and most people today. The Techniques you refer to are not torture.

Second, To answer you question the Reports I have heard suggest the Name of the Currier that we were able to follow to Bin Laden was originally given up Under some form of Enhanced Interrogation.

More importantly however is the fact that when we say Bush gave Obama the tools to get Osama. We are not just referring to Enhanced Interrogations. There is also the fact that Bush made it so we can hold Enemy combatants indefinitely. If Obama had his way they would be given Myranda Rights and Not be able to be held indefinitely with out trial.

I have also heard reports that before KSM was water boarded he gave up nothing, After he was he gave up info much more readily. Which is of course always the case when Interrogating Someone. Once you get them to give up some info, it usually opens of the flood gates and you can get more out of them. In this case the idea is Water Boarding (which I do not believe rises to the level of Torture) and things like sleep deprivation. Broke KSM and the other 2 guys we know we did it to. Once broken they talked even more, and at least in part helped lead to finding Osama.

You can deny it if you want, but the CIA, former Defense Sec, and many others all say it is the truth.

Ditto CM.

Bush gave Obama the tools to catch OBL. As soon as he became POTUS Obama said no more waterboarding. We have lost a great tool to protect America.

The military handbook is whats being used now. Hell. Holder is looking into prosecuting the CIA interrogators. I don't think it will go anywhere but he's looking at it.

I seriously wonder what world Obama, Holder and all like minded folks live in?? Values are nice but they ain't worth one American life.

We have an enemy who kills indiscriminatly. The only thing they value is their religion. Human life means nothing. Hell. They would have murdered half of NYC if they could have on 9/11.

AQ is still out there and believe me they will continue to attack us any way they can and we need every tool in order to combat them and keep America safe.

You can only hope and pray..

Bet this Sport...They are a whole lot LESS out there today than they were 10 days ago.

Link?........Proof necessary, otherwise it's nothing more than usual loony liberal propoganda.

 

[QUENTIN]

For getting the intelligence that led to the discovery and killing of Osama Bin Laden, then...

a.) What SPECIFIC information was it?

and

2.) WHY wasn't it done 6 or even 4 years ago?

What you people want us to buy is that somehow, some kind of VERY important information was garnered from beating the living snot out of some Muslims that is just NOW baring fruit.

Anyone who would actually believe that should have their head examined.

Can you enlighten the rest of us?

Your post is full of all of the hysterical bluster, and incoherent babble that is evident when ever an uninformed liberal attempts to involve themselves in informed debate. Every point that you raise has been covered Ad nauseam in the media. Yet all of that seems to have blown over your little pin head.

Here is a question for you. All military aviators, and spec ops, must complete SERE training. One aspect of this training is they must submit to water boarding. If this practice is illegal, immoral, and tortuous then let's bring the CinC B. H. Obama, up on charges as a war criminal. Or maybe you only care about the well being of our enemies. What say you?

"The SERE program, was originally designed to be defensive in nature and was used to train pilots and other soldiers on how to resist harsh interrogation techniques and torture were they to fall into enemy hands.[17][20] The program subjected trainees to torture techniques such as “waterboarding . . . sleep deprivation, isolation, exposure to extreme temperatures, enclosure in tiny spaces, bombardment with agonizing sounds at extremely damaging decibel levels, and religious and sexual humiliation.”[23]

Under CIA supervision, Miller and Jessen adapted SERE into an offensive program designed to train CIA agents on how to use the harsh interrogation techniques to gather information from terrorist detainees.[16][17][20] In fact, all of the tactics listed above would later be reported in the International Committee of the Red Cross Report on Fourteen High Value Detainees in CIA Custody as having been used on Abu Zubaydah.[24][25]"

Enhanced interrogation techniques - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Idiots keep bringing this up without an understanding of why our soldiers are waterboarded in the first place. It's because it's a torture technique that the Koreans and Vietnamese used to extract false confessions and we wanted our soldiers to have some experience with the sensation to avoid giving false confessions. They are waterboarded in a safe environment by their fellow soldiers with full knowledge and assurance that they will survive. It's an exercise. That's quite different than being tortured by your enemy.

Here's what Malcolm W. Nance, a Master Instructor and Chief of Training at SERE school had to say on the matter:
Waterboarding is Torture? Period (Links Updated # 9) (SWJ Blog)

As a former master instructor and chief of training at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape School (SERE) in San Diego, I know the waterboard personally and intimately. Our staff was required to undergo the waterboard at its fullest. I was no exception.

I have personally led, witnessed and supervised waterboarding of hundreds of people. It has been reported that both the Army and Navy SERE school's interrogation manuals were used to form the interrogation techniques employed by the Army and the CIA for its terror suspects. What is less frequently reported is that our training was designed to show how an evil totalitarian enemy would use torture at the slightest whim.

Having been subjected to this technique, I can say: It is risky but not entirely dangerous when applied in training for a very short period. However, when performed on an unsuspecting prisoner, waterboarding is a torture technique - without a doubt. There is no way to sugarcoat it.

In the media, waterboarding is called "simulated drowning," but that's a misnomer. It does not simulate drowning, as the lungs are actually filling with water. There is no way to simulate that. The victim is drowning.

Unless you have been strapped down to the board, have endured the agonizing feeling of the water overpowering your gag reflex, and then feel your throat open and allow pint after pint of water to involuntarily fill your lungs, you will not know the meaning of the word.

How much of this the victim is to endure depends on the desired result (in the form of answers to questions shouted into the victim's face) and the obstinacy of the subject. A team doctor watches the quantity of water that is ingested and for the physiological signs that show when the drowning effect goes from painful psychological experience, to horrific suffocating punishment to the final death spiral.

Waterboarding is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. Usually the person goes into hysterics on the board. For the uninitiated, it is horrifying to watch. If it goes wrong, it can lead straight to terminal hypoxia - meaning, the loss of all oxygen to the cells.

The lack of physical scarring allows the victim to recover and be threatened with its use again and again. Call it "Chinese water torture," "the barrel," or "the waterfall." It is all the same.

One has to overcome basic human decency to endure causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you questioning the meaning of what it is to be an American.

Is there a place for the waterboard? Yes. It must go back to the realm of training our operatives, soldiers, sailors, airmen and Marines - to prepare for its uncontrolled use by our future enemies. Brutal interrogation, flash murder and extreme humiliation of Americans may now be guaranteed because we have mindlessly, but happily, broken the seal on the Pandora's box of indignity, cruelty and hatred in the name ofprotecting America.

Torture advocates hide behind the argument that an open discussion about specific American interrogation techniques will aid the enemy. Yet convicted Al Qaeda members and innocent captives who were released to their host nations have already debriefed the world through hundreds of interviews, movies and documentaries on exactly what methods they were subjected to and how they endured.

Our own missteps have already created a cadre of highly experienced lecturers for Al Qaeda's own virtual school for terrorists.

I agree with Sen. John McCain. Waterboarding should never be used as an interrogation tool. It is beneath our values.

Nance is a counterterrorism consultant for the government's special operations, homeland security and intelligence agencies.

 

[iggy pop]

For getting the intelligence that led to the discovery and killing of Osama Bin Laden, then...

a.) What SPECIFIC information was it?

and

2.) WHY wasn't it done 6 or even 4 years ago?

What you people want us to buy is that somehow, some kind of VERY important information was garnered from beating the living snot out of some Muslims that is just NOW baring fruit.

Anyone who would actually believe that should have their head examined.

Can you enlighten the rest of us?

The name of the courier who eventually led the CIA to Bin Laden. You know, the one critical piece of information they needed.

 

[QUENTIN]

Here's what Nance, the Master Instructor and Chief of Training at SERE school had to say when he testified before a Congressional subcomittee:

My name is Malcolm Wrightson Nance. I am a former member of the U.S. military intelligence community, a retired U.S. Navy Senior Chief Petty Officer. I have served honorably for 20 years.

While serving my nation, I had the honor to be accepted for duty as an instructor at the U.S. Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE) school in North Island Naval Air Station, California. I served in that capacity as an instructor and Master Training Specialist in the Wartime Prisoner-of-War, Peacetime Hostile Government Detainee and Terrorist Hostage survival programs.

At SERE, one of my most serious responsibilities was to employ, supervise or witness dramatic and highly kinetic coercive interrogation methods, through hands-on, live demonstrations in a simulated captive environment which inoculated our student to the experience of high intensity stress and duress.

Some of these coercive physical techniques have been identified in the media as Enhanced Interrogation Techniques. The most severe of those employed by SERE was waterboarding.

Within the four SERE schools and Joint Personnel Recovery community, the waterboard was rightly used as a demonstration tool that revealed to our students the techniques of brutal authoritarian enemies.

SERE trained tens of thousands of service members of its historical use by the Nazis, the Japanese, North Korea, Iraq, the Soviet Union, the Khmer Rouge and the North Vietnamese.

SERE emphasized that enemies of democracy and rule of law often ignore human rights, defy the Geneva Convention and have subjected our men and women to grievous physical and psychological harm. We stress that enduring these calumnies will allow our soldiers to return home with honor.

The SERE community was designed over 50 years ago to show that, as a torture instrument, waterboarding is a terrifying, painful and humiliating tool that leaves no physical scars and which can be repeatedly used as an intimidation tool.

Waterboarding has the ability to make the subject answer any question with a truth, a half-truth or an outright lie in order to stop the procedure. Subjects usually resort to all three, often in rapid sequence. Most media representations or recreations of the waterboarding are inaccurate, amateurish and dangerous improvisations, which do not capture the true intensity of the act. Contrary to popular opinion, it is not a simulation of drowning -- it is drowning.

In my case, the technique was so fast and professional that I didn’t know what was happening until the water entered my nose and throat. It then pushes down into the trachea and starts the process of respiratory degradation.

It is an overwhelming experience that induces horror and triggers frantic survival instincts. As the event unfolded, I was fully conscious of what was happening -- I was being tortured.

Proponents claim that American waterboarding is acceptable because it is done rarely, professionally and only on truly deserving terrorists like 9/11 planner Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Media reporting revealed that tough interrogations were designed to show we had "taken the gloves off."

It also may have led directly to prisoner abuse and murder in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

The debate surrounding waterboarding has been lessened to a question of he-said, she-said politics. But I believe that, as some view it as now acceptable, it is symptomatic of a greater problem.

We must ask ourselves, has America unwittingly relinquished its place as the guardian of human rights and the beacon of justice? Do we now agree that our unique form of justice, based on the concepts of fairness, honor and the unwavering conviction that America is better than its enemies, should no longer govern our intelligence agencies?

This has now been clearly called into question.

On the morning of September 11, at the green field next to a burning Pentagon, I was a witness to one of the greatest displays of heroism in our history. American men and women, both military and civilian, repeatedly and selflessly risked their lives to save those around them. At the same time, hundreds of American citizens gave their lives to save thousands in both Washington DC and New York City. It was a painful day for all of us.

But, does the ultimate goal of protecting America require us to adopt policies that shift our mindset from righteousness and self-defense to covert cruelty?

Does protecting America "at all costs" mean sacrificing the Constitution, our laws and the Bill of Rights in order to save it? I do not believe that.

The attacks of September 11 were horrific, but they did not give us the right to destroy our moral fabric as a nation or to reverse a course that for two hundred years led the world towards democracy, prosperity and guaranteed the rights of billions to live in peace.

We must return to using our moral compass in the fight against al-Qaida. Had we done so initially we would have had greater success to stanch out terrorist activity and perhaps would have captured Osama bin Laden long ago. Shocking the world by bragging about how professional our brutality was was counter-productive to the fight. There are ways to get the information we need. Perhaps less-kinetic interrogation and indoctrination techniques could have brought more al-Qaida members and active supporters to our side. That edge may be lost forever.

More importantly, our citizens once believed in the justness of our cause. Now, we are divided. Many have abandoned their belief in the fight because they question the commitment to our own core values. Allied countries, critical to the war against al-Qaida, may not supply us with the assistance we need to bring terrorists to justice. I believe that we must reject the use of the waterboard for prisoners and captives and cleanse this stain from our national honor.

 

[QUENTIN]

Now, when the chief interrogator of high-value detainees in the global war on terror, a man who has interrogated more suspected terrorists than anyone else alive, who was in charge of interrogations in Iraq for years, performing hundreds and supervising thousands and teaching the successful techniques to hundreds more, the man who personally interrogated the detainee who gave up the information that led us directly to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the highest-value target in the entire war besides bin Laden, and allowed us to kill him, making him arguably the best interrogator America has and certainly the most experienced, says that waterboarding does not provide valuable intelligence and is highly counterproductive, it makes no sense not to listen.

When, on top of that, a master instructor and chief of training at SERE school who has been waterboarded and supervised the waterboarding of hundreds of soldiers, a man with qualifications on the subject that exponentially exceed those of anyone on this board or in the media punditocracy or bureaucracies of government, says waterboarding is unequivocally torture and is highly counterproductive, then it really makes no sense not to listen.

The people who know what they are talking about, the genuine and qualified experts with years and years of experience and success in the field, agree that waterboarding is both torture and is not an effective means of extracting intelligence from a source.

What is it, in your capacity as an amateur, that you think you know that leads to you to ignore their professional opinions and insist your gut must be right that torture works?

How do you respond to the fact that the head of interrogation and the head of SERE training emphatically disagree with everything you say and back it up with the real knowledge and experience you lack? How does that not change your mind?

 

[DiamondDave]

And I have known many fellow individual soldiers that have individually spoken against many things... whether it be policy, training methods, PT exercises, the CIC, or whatever else...

1 single person's vision, does not make your case, quentin

 

[LibocalypseNow]

Sometimes Torture works,sometimes bombing & killing works,and sometimes storming homes and shooting them in their face works. That's the reality. The whining about "Water-Boarding" was always petty partisan hackery. It was all about Politics for those people. All about bringing their BOOOOOOSH Boogeyman down. These are the same people who are now running around cheerleading & boasting about shooting an unarmed man (Bin Laden) in his face,in his home,and in front of his children. They're also cheerleading and boasting about bombing & killing Gaddafi's Son & Grandchildren. These people have no credibility. It was always all about getting the power back for those people. Now they have that power back,so anything goes. It is what it is.

 

[QUENTIN]

And I have known many fellow individual soldiers that have individually spoken against many things... whether it be policy, training methods, PT exercises, the CIC, or whatever else...

1 single person's vision, does not make your case, quentin

This isn't one single person's vision. It's not the vision of some random individual who knows a little something from serving.

This is the professional opinion of the singular individual with more success and experience as an interrogator of Islamic militants in the war on terror than anyone else in history, the foremost expert in the world on the subject of interrogation, and the professional opinion of an individual who didn't just go through waterboarding at SERE but was the chief of training at SERE school, one of the world's most foremost experts on the subject of waterboarding. Their firsthand experience and knowledge is essentially unparalleled and though their opinion doesn't necessarily equal fact, I've yet to see anyone offer an argument for why listening to people who know substantially more than any source that disagrees with them isn't the smart and rational thing to do.

And, of course, it is not the opinion of even just these two remarkable informed and experienced individuals.

There is a general agreement among experts at large that torture doesn't work:

Top Interrogation Experts Agree: Torture Doesn't Work

This is just a sampling from that link which provides links of its own to each statement:

the top interrogation experts all say torture that doesn't work:

* The military agency which actually provided advice on harsh interrogation techniques for use against terrorism suspects warned the Pentagon in 2002 that those techniques would produce "unreliable information."

* Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1 says:

"Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

* A declassified FBI e-mail dated May 10, 2004, regarding interrogation at Guantanamo states "[we] explained to [the Department of Defense], FBI has been successful for many years obtaining confessions via non-confrontational interviewing techniques." (see also this)

* Brigadier General David R. Irvine, retired Army Reserve strategic intelligence officer who taught prisoner interrogation and military law for 18 years with the Sixth Army Intelligence School, says torture doesn't work

* The CIA's own Inspector General wrote that waterboarding was not "efficacious" in producing information

* A former FBI interrogator -- who interrogated Al Qaeda suspects -- says categorically that torture does not help collect intelligence. On the other hand he says that torture actually turns people into terrorists

* A 30-year veteran of CIA’s operations directorate who rose to the most senior managerial ranks, says:

“The administration’s claims of having ‘saved thousands of Americans’ can be dismissed out of hand because credible evidence has never been offered — not even an authoritative leak of any major terrorist operation interdicted based on information gathered from these interrogations in the past seven years. … It is irresponsible for any administration not to tell a credible story that would convince critics at home and abroad that this torture has served some useful purpose.

This is not just because the old hands overwhelmingly believe that torture doesn’t work — it doesn’t — but also because they know that torture creates more terrorists and fosters more acts of terror than it could possibly neutralize.”

* The FBI interrogators who actually interviewed some of the 9/11 suspects say torture didn't work

* A former US Air Force interrogator said that information obtained from torture is unreliable, and that torture just creates more terrorists

* The number 2 terrorism expert for the State Department says torture doesn't work, and just creates more terrorists

* A former high-level CIA officer states:

Many governments that have routinely tortured to obtain information have abandoned the practice when they discovered that other approaches actually worked better for extracting information. Israel prohibited torturing Palestinian terrorist suspects in 1999. Even the German Gestapo stopped torturing French resistance captives when it determined that treating prisoners well actually produced more and better intelligence.

* The Senate Armed Services Committee unanimously found that torture doesn't work.

When you couple the unparalleled professional experience of the two experts I named with the consensus among people who practice, teach, and study interrogation and add to it the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's direct, clear, and simple assertion that the intelligence that led us to bin Laden was extracted during normal interrogation utilizing uncontroversial and not "enhanced" techniques, and the CIA's timeline that demonstrates it was four years between when their detainees were waterboarded and when they gave up the information we needed, it makes absolutely no sense, there is absolutely no rational basis, for continuing to believe waterboarding is a worthwhile technique.

 

[DiamondDave]

And there are many more who do not bash the process, say it does work, or proclaim it to be torture...

You love to bring up individual opinions on it, or blogs, or statements from loonybin thinktanks... as long as it supports your view... you have no consensus, just because you say you do

I can sit and post links from various sources that have statements from individuals or groups or studies that says it does work... but that is of no consequence to you... but at least I don't try and proclaim some 'consensus'

 

[Wicked Jester]

And I have known many fellow individual soldiers that have individually spoken against many things... whether it be policy, training methods, PT exercises, the CIC, or whatever else...

1 single person's vision, does not make your case, quentin

This isn't one single person's vision. It's not the vision of some random individual who knows a little something from serving.

This is the professional opinion of the singular individual with more success and experience as an interrogator of Islamic militants in the war on terror than anyone else in history, the foremost expert in the world on the subject of interrogation, and the professional opinion of an individual who didn't just go through waterboarding at SERE but was the chief of training at SERE school, one of the world's most foremost experts on the subject of waterboarding. Their firsthand experience and knowledge is essentially unparalleled and though their opinion doesn't necessarily equal fact, I've yet to see anyone offer an argument for why listening to people who know substantially more than any source that disagrees with them isn't the smart and rational thing to do.

And, of course, it is not the opinion of even just these two remarkable informed and experienced individuals.

There is a general agreement among experts at large that torture doesn't work:

Top Interrogation Experts Agree: Torture Doesn't Work

This is just a sampling from that link which provides links of its own to each statement:

the top interrogation experts all say torture that doesn't work:

* The military agency which actually provided advice on harsh interrogation techniques for use against terrorism suspects warned the Pentagon in 2002 that those techniques would produce "unreliable information."

* Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1 says:

"Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

* A declassified FBI e-mail dated May 10, 2004, regarding interrogation at Guantanamo states "[we] explained to [the Department of Defense], FBI has been successful for many years obtaining confessions via non-confrontational interviewing techniques." (see also this)

* Brigadier General David R. Irvine, retired Army Reserve strategic intelligence officer who taught prisoner interrogation and military law for 18 years with the Sixth Army Intelligence School, says torture doesn't work

* The CIA's own Inspector General wrote that waterboarding was not "efficacious" in producing information

* A former FBI interrogator -- who interrogated Al Qaeda suspects -- says categorically that torture does not help collect intelligence. On the other hand he says that torture actually turns people into terrorists

* A 30-year veteran of CIA’s operations directorate who rose to the most senior managerial ranks, says:

“The administration’s claims of having ‘saved thousands of Americans’ can be dismissed out of hand because credible evidence has never been offered — not even an authoritative leak of any major terrorist operation interdicted based on information gathered from these interrogations in the past seven years. … It is irresponsible for any administration not to tell a credible story that would convince critics at home and abroad that this torture has served some useful purpose.

This is not just because the old hands overwhelmingly believe that torture doesn’t work — it doesn’t — but also because they know that torture creates more terrorists and fosters more acts of terror than it could possibly neutralize.”

* The FBI interrogators who actually interviewed some of the 9/11 suspects say torture didn't work

* A former US Air Force interrogator said that information obtained from torture is unreliable, and that torture just creates more terrorists

* The number 2 terrorism expert for the State Department says torture doesn't work, and just creates more terrorists

* A former high-level CIA officer states:

Many governments that have routinely tortured to obtain information have abandoned the practice when they discovered that other approaches actually worked better for extracting information. Israel prohibited torturing Palestinian terrorist suspects in 1999. Even the German Gestapo stopped torturing French resistance captives when it determined that treating prisoners well actually produced more and better intelligence.

* The Senate Armed Services Committee unanimously found that torture doesn't work.

When you couple the unparalleled professional experience of the two experts I named with the consensus among people who practice, teach, and study interrogation and add to it the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld's direct, clear, and simple assertion that the intelligence that led us to bin Laden was extracted during normal interrogation utilizing uncontroversial and not "enhanced" techniques, and the CIA's timeline that demonstrates it was four years between when their detainees were waterboarded and when they gave up the information we needed, it makes absolutely no sense, there is absolutely no rational basis, for continuing to believe waterboarding is a worthwhile technique.

Leon Panetta, Hayden and several others have verified it works....Twisting the words of Rumsfeld does not help your case, anymore than blatantly trying to twist Panetta's words.

Waterboarding worked...It's a non-torterous tool that should always be in the box......PERIOD!

I'm concerned with american lives. I could care less about bleeding heart loony liberals and their abject loony nonsense.

 

[QUENTIN]

Here's an interview with Forbes with a top interrogator of high-value detainees in Afghanistan who offers his thoughts on the subject:

Senior U.S. Interrogator: Torture Talk Puts Troops at Risk - Osha Gray Davidson - Edison 2.0 - Forbes

A top United States interrogator in Afghanistan says that torture played no role in locating Osama bin Laden, and that claims to the contrary by former Bush administration officials recently amount to “propaganda [that] degrades our intelligence operations more than any other factor I can think of.”

Echoing what Matthew Alexander has long argued, he also talks about how torture not only doesn't save American lives but is one of the major contributing factors to the loss of it:

Such talk also creates blowback -- unintended consequences -- that can be deadly, he added in an interview. "Simply the idea of our interrogators using torture or coercion recruits jihadists, facilitators, suppliers, supporters, and even suicide bombers, against us and our allies," he said.

...

On the subject of blowback, he continued:

I cannot even count the amount of times that I personally have come face to face with detainees, who told me they were primarily motivated to do what they did, because of hearing that we committed torture. Even the rumor of torture is enough to convince an army of uneducated and illiterate, yet religiously motivated young boys to strap bombs to their chests and blow themselves up while killing whoever happens to be around - police, soldiers, civilians, women, or children. Torture committed by Americans in the past continues to kill Americans today.

When everyone who knows what they're talking about, not from theoretical and abstract study, but from years of personal firsthand experience feel one way about a subject and you with little or likely zero firsthand experience with the subject feel the opposite, 99 times out of 100 it means you're wrong. 100 times out of 100 it means you should really consider what they have to say with an open mind and force yourself to look at the evidence and see what conclusions it suggests.

When it comes to torture/waterboarding, the case for it is based on conjecture and supposition.

The case against it is based on centuries of historical evidence, decades of study, and years and years of firsthand practical experience.

I understand there are people out there who just hate terrorists and want them subjected to all matter of pain, but that's an issue of vengeance not intelligence, an emotional response, not a rational one, and refusing to use waterboarding/torture is not an issue of going easier on detainees but utilizing a more effective (and also unequivocally legal and moral) technique at extracting valuable intelligence without exacerbating our problems the way torture does.

 

[HUGGY]

Ditto CM.

Bush gave Obama the tools to catch OBL. As soon as he became POTUS Obama said no more waterboarding. We have lost a great tool to protect America.

The military handbook is whats being used now. Hell. Holder is looking into prosecuting the CIA interrogators. I don't think it will go anywhere but he's looking at it.

I seriously wonder what world Obama, Holder and all like minded folks live in?? Values are nice but they ain't worth one American life.

We have an enemy who kills indiscriminatly. The only thing they value is their religion. Human life means nothing. Hell. They would have murdered half of NYC if they could have on 9/11.

AQ is still out there and believe me they will continue to attack us any way they can and we need every tool in order to combat them and keep America safe.

You can only hope and pray..

Bet this Sport...They are a whole lot LESS out there today than they were 10 days ago.

Link?........Proof necessary, otherwise it's nothing more than usual loony liberal propoganda.

I haven't heard a single pundit republican or your "loony liberals" deny the Seals captured a treasure trove of vital Al Quada information from the compound fortress. Knowing what I have experienced from clandestine operations, albeit non-military, my guess is that what remains of their leadership is running for the hills and scattering to the winds. If you thought they were "underground" before ...I can assure you that today they are a bunch of scared shitless golfers. The only "proof" that anyone need concern themselves with now is what is in the hands of our analysis agencies and it is not you or I that information is directed at. The biggest problem Al Quada has right now is that they have no idea what we know but they have to fear for the worst. That thought alone will keep them busy just staying alive for at least a decade. It will also cripple their efforts to recruit new members as they have to be especially careful who they trust now.

 

[DiamondDave]

Here's an interview with Forbes with a top interrogator of high-value detainees in Afghanistan who offers his thoughts on the subject:

Senior U.S. Interrogator: Torture Talk Puts Troops at Risk - Osha Gray Davidson - Edison 2.0 - Forbes

A top United States interrogator in Afghanistan says that torture played no role in locating Osama bin Laden, and that claims to the contrary by former Bush administration officials recently amount to “propaganda [that] degrades our intelligence operations more than any other factor I can think of.”

Echoing what Matthew Alexander has long argued, he also talks about how torture not only doesn't save American lives but is one of the major contributing factors to the loss of it:

Such talk also creates blowback -- unintended consequences -- that can be deadly, he added in an interview. "Simply the idea of our interrogators using torture or coercion recruits jihadists, facilitators, suppliers, supporters, and even suicide bombers, against us and our allies," he said.

...

On the subject of blowback, he continued:

I cannot even count the amount of times that I personally have come face to face with detainees, who told me they were primarily motivated to do what they did, because of hearing that we committed torture. Even the rumor of torture is enough to convince an army of uneducated and illiterate, yet religiously motivated young boys to strap bombs to their chests and blow themselves up while killing whoever happens to be around - police, soldiers, civilians, women, or children. Torture committed by Americans in the past continues to kill Americans today.

When everyone who knows what they're talking about, not from theoretical and abstract study, but from years of personal firsthand experience feel one way about a subject and you with little or likely zero firsthand experience with the subject feel the opposite, 99 times out of 100 it means you're wrong. 100 times out of 100 it means you should really consider what they have to say with an open mind and force yourself to look at the evidence and see what conclusions it suggests.

When it comes to torture/waterboarding, the case for it is based on conjecture and supposition.

The case against it is based on centuries of historical evidence, decades of study, and years and years of firsthand practical experience.

I understand there are people out there who just hate terrorists and want them subjected to all matter of pain, but that's an issue of vengeance not intelligence, an emotional response, not a rational one, and refusing to use waterboarding/torture is not an issue of going easier on detainees but utilizing a more effective (and also unequivocally legal and moral) technique at extracting valuable intelligence without exacerbating our problems the way torture does.

Again.. because YOU say they know what they are talking about... because they happen to agree with YOUR preconceived opinion... yet if a person with a similar or same background states the opposite of what YOu want to hear, you'll dismiss it

You're a real piece of partisan workmanship