Rise of the Warrior Cop: time to reconsider the militarization of policing?

[Quantum Windbag]

What makes you guys think the Cops are smart enough and disciplined enough to handle all the firepower they're given?

Is it just because they went to a Police Academy?

If you don't want it in Civilian hands, then why would you want it in Police hands?

Cops aren't recruited from a far off Universe of Intelligent beings, they come from a country where education levels and I.Q levels have been dropping. Who would want to give all that firepower to a public school educated semi-retard?

Because they went to a police academy, because they are part of a regimented organization with lines of authority and discipline.

One might even call them "A Well-REgulated Militia"... Hmmmm. Where have we heard that term before.

One might call them that if they were both a complete asshole and incredibly ignorant.

Do you know anyone who might be that stupid?

 

[Pogo]

The point you are trying to make is that the cops want bigger guns because they claim the bad guys have bigger guns. Since you agree with them I am making the same demand from you I do whenver one of them make that argument.

Yet all you can do is insult me.

Guy, you are a whackjob... all there is to do is insult you.

Frankly, I want these cops to be able to go home to their families, so I want them to have the equipment they need. It's unfortunate the gunmakers have turned our streets into war zones. It's unfortunate that the NRA and idiots think this is just wonderful, because their fear makes it impossible to pass common sense gun laws.

But until we have common sense gun laws, I want the guys who have to take out the garbage to have the equipment to do so.

You are partially right, insults are all you have because you cannot come up with an argument that actually makes sense.

Frankly, that attitude is the root of the problem. Tell the cops that them going home to their families is more important than whether or not the guy they shoot is actually trying to kill them and they end up shooting people who are running away from them.

Concord police kill suspect in Antioch - SFGate

They also end up shooting people when they break down the wrong door and innocent people react to their houses being invaded.

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - ABC News

You can call me crazy all day long, it won't change the fact that you are defending people who get away with murder if anyone else did it.

You guys are basically arguing "chicken versus egg". In other words both positions have merit.

At the base of it is the root of the problem, and that is gun culture. Or more broadly, a culture of violence and vanquishment. A dichotomy of good versus evil, begetting a philosophy of "might makes right".

 

[westwall]

That's not the point I was trying to make. So if you promise to take one of your anti-Crazy Pills before you read this, I'll try again.

Civilians should not have semi-automatic weapons, automatic weapons, 100 round clips, armor piercing bullets or any of the other stuff the gun makers are pushing out there. Because that means the criminals will get them, eventually.

And when they do, I want the cops to be better armed. I want them to have a numerical superiority on the bad guys.

The point you are trying to make is that the cops want bigger guns because they claim the bad guys have bigger guns. Since you agree with them I am making the same demand from you I do whenver one of them make that argument.

Yet all you can do is insult me.

Guy, you are a whackjob... all there is to do is insult you.

Frankly, I want these cops to be able to go home to their families, so I want them to have the equipment they need. It's unfortunate the gunmakers have turned our streets into war zones. It's unfortunate that the NRA and idiots think this is just wonderful, because their fear makes it impossible to pass common sense gun laws.

But until we have common sense gun laws, I want the guys who have to take out the garbage to have the equipment to do so.

Actually you can blame Michael Mann and Dick Wolf, the producers of Miami Vice, for the arms race. Prior to THAT show the bad guys used pretty mundane weapons. After THAT show however the bad guys wanted those weapons that the producers (and Wolf is a notorious anti gun guy) had romanticized.

This is one case where you can absolutely blame Hollywood for the rise in popularity of "assault weapons".

 

[westwall]

What makes you guys think the Cops are smart enough and disciplined enough to handle all the firepower they're given?

Is it just because they went to a Police Academy?

If you don't want it in Civilian hands, then why would you want it in Police hands?

Cops aren't recruited from a far off Universe of Intelligent beings, they come from a country where education levels and I.Q levels have been dropping. Who would want to give all that firepower to a public school educated semi-retard?

Because they went to a police academy, because they are part of a regimented organization with lines of authority and discipline.

One might even call them "A Well-REgulated Militia"... Hmmmm. Where have we heard that term before.

Police officers are notoriously poorly trained when it comes to the weapons they use. They are excellent report writers but tactically, strategically, and operationally they are for the most part very poor.

There are exceptions to the rule of course, but they are the officers who pay for their own tactical classes at Thunder Ranch and Gunsite etc., and when they come back the majority are shunted off to the side because they're "gun guys" who the brass are afraid of.

 

[westwall]

Guy, you are a whackjob... all there is to do is insult you.

Frankly, I want these cops to be able to go home to their families, so I want them to have the equipment they need. It's unfortunate the gunmakers have turned our streets into war zones. It's unfortunate that the NRA and idiots think this is just wonderful, because their fear makes it impossible to pass common sense gun laws.

But until we have common sense gun laws, I want the guys who have to take out the garbage to have the equipment to do so.

You are partially right, insults are all you have because you cannot come up with an argument that actually makes sense.

Frankly, that attitude is the root of the problem. Tell the cops that them going home to their families is more important than whether or not the guy they shoot is actually trying to kill them and they end up shooting people who are running away from them.

Concord police kill suspect in Antioch - SFGate

They also end up shooting people when they break down the wrong door and innocent people react to their houses being invaded.

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - ABC News

You can call me crazy all day long, it won't change the fact that you are defending people who get away with murder if anyone else did it.

You guys are basically arguing "chicken versus egg". In other words both positions have merit.

At the base of it is the root of the problem, and that is gun culture. Or more broadly, a culture of violence and vanquishment. A dichotomy of good versus evil, begetting a philosophy of "might makes right".

The "gun culture" has nothing to do with incompetent police officers. Incompetency is a normal bureaucratic norm. The more governmental control the greater the incompetence. Police officers should never, ever raid the wrong house. Do you have any idea how incredibly stupid you have to be to do that? That is the equivalent of a surgeon who is supposed to remove your appendix taking out one of your kidneys.

And just imagine how costly that mistake would be for the surgeon. But, with collectivists it's OK because....well the government did it. Read the "Gulag Archipelago" sometime to see what happens when your attitude is taken to its logical conclusion....

 

[Pogo]

You are partially right, insults are all you have because you cannot come up with an argument that actually makes sense.

Frankly, that attitude is the root of the problem. Tell the cops that them going home to their families is more important than whether or not the guy they shoot is actually trying to kill them and they end up shooting people who are running away from them.

Concord police kill suspect in Antioch - SFGate

They also end up shooting people when they break down the wrong door and innocent people react to their houses being invaded.

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - ABC News

You can call me crazy all day long, it won't change the fact that you are defending people who get away with murder if anyone else did it.

You guys are basically arguing "chicken versus egg". In other words both positions have merit.

At the base of it is the root of the problem, and that is gun culture. Or more broadly, a culture of violence and vanquishment. A dichotomy of good versus evil, begetting a philosophy of "might makes right".

The "gun culture" has nothing to do with incompetent police officers. Incompetency is a normal bureaucratic norm. The more governmental control the greater the incompetence. Police officers should never, ever raid the wrong house. Do you have any idea how incredibly stupid you have to be to do that? That is the equivalent of a surgeon who is supposed to remove your appendix taking out one of your kidneys.

And just imagine how costly that mistake would be for the surgeon. But, with collectivists it's OK because....well the government did it. Read the "Gulag Archipelago" sometime to see what happens when your attitude is taken to its logical conclusion....

It has everything to do with the arms race under discussion by JoeB and QW. You just noted the same thing in your own last post, even to the point of using the term "arms race", which is exactly what I would call it, so I agree with you there.

I don't have a clue what the reference to the Solzhenitsyn book has to do with "my attitude". Perhaps you could fill in the blank.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Guy, you are a whackjob... all there is to do is insult you.

Frankly, I want these cops to be able to go home to their families, so I want them to have the equipment they need. It's unfortunate the gunmakers have turned our streets into war zones. It's unfortunate that the NRA and idiots think this is just wonderful, because their fear makes it impossible to pass common sense gun laws.

But until we have common sense gun laws, I want the guys who have to take out the garbage to have the equipment to do so.

You are partially right, insults are all you have because you cannot come up with an argument that actually makes sense.

Frankly, that attitude is the root of the problem. Tell the cops that them going home to their families is more important than whether or not the guy they shoot is actually trying to kill them and they end up shooting people who are running away from them.

Concord police kill suspect in Antioch - SFGate

They also end up shooting people when they break down the wrong door and innocent people react to their houses being invaded.

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - ABC News

You can call me crazy all day long, it won't change the fact that you are defending people who get away with murder if anyone else did it.

You guys are basically arguing "chicken versus egg". In other words both positions have merit.

At the base of it is the root of the problem, and that is gun culture. Or more broadly, a culture of violence and vanquishment. A dichotomy of good versus evil, begetting a philosophy of "might makes right".

Fuck off. The gun culture has as much to do with violence as the car culture has to do with crashes.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You guys are basically arguing "chicken versus egg". In other words both positions have merit.

At the base of it is the root of the problem, and that is gun culture. Or more broadly, a culture of violence and vanquishment. A dichotomy of good versus evil, begetting a philosophy of "might makes right".

The "gun culture" has nothing to do with incompetent police officers. Incompetency is a normal bureaucratic norm. The more governmental control the greater the incompetence. Police officers should never, ever raid the wrong house. Do you have any idea how incredibly stupid you have to be to do that? That is the equivalent of a surgeon who is supposed to remove your appendix taking out one of your kidneys.

And just imagine how costly that mistake would be for the surgeon. But, with collectivists it's OK because....well the government did it. Read the "Gulag Archipelago" sometime to see what happens when your attitude is taken to its logical conclusion....

It has everything to do with the arms race under discussion by JoeB and QW. You just noted the same thing in your own last post, even to the point of using the term "arms race", which is exactly what I would call it, so I agree with you there.

I don't have a clue what the reference to the Solzhenitsyn book has to do with "my attitude". Perhaps you could fill in the blank.

I am not dissuading an arms race with JoeB because there is no arms race, it only exists in the head of idiots who want to justify equipping cops with military grade weapons in order to make money. If there was actually an arms race standoffs like the LA bank robbery would be happening every day, and the crooks would be deploying LAWS rockets instead of scary looking rifles. The simple truth is that crooks don't make enough money to buy they kind of weapons that justify the police buying, and using, military grade armor vehicles.

 

[Pogo]

You are partially right, insults are all you have because you cannot come up with an argument that actually makes sense.

Frankly, that attitude is the root of the problem. Tell the cops that them going home to their families is more important than whether or not the guy they shoot is actually trying to kill them and they end up shooting people who are running away from them.

Concord police kill suspect in Antioch - SFGate

They also end up shooting people when they break down the wrong door and innocent people react to their houses being invaded.

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - ABC News

You can call me crazy all day long, it won't change the fact that you are defending people who get away with murder if anyone else did it.

You guys are basically arguing "chicken versus egg". In other words both positions have merit.

At the base of it is the root of the problem, and that is gun culture. Or more broadly, a culture of violence and vanquishment. A dichotomy of good versus evil, begetting a philosophy of "might makes right".

Fuck off. The gun culture has as much to do with violence as the car culture has to do with crashes.

Not really. We had violence long before we had guns but we needed cars to have car crashes. Think about it.
Not to mention they have entirely different functions; the purpose of cars has nothing to do with violence.

As a fatter o' mact I could argue that your phrase "fuck off" is itself a manifestation of that culture of violence. Ironic.

Now you could say car crashes are a product of consumerist culture. Better analogy.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

[

I don't speculate things into the story I have no evidence for, so no I have no idea what the girlfriend's story was, because it's not in the article -- double duh.

What I do see is twelve guys in military garb with a battering ram acting on hearsay about a plant. What I see is Fish & Wildlife pulling a military raid on a woman suspected of owing a student loan. What I see is a gambling suspect shot dead by a military posse because he reached for a cell phone; what I see is a 20-year old college student swarmed by seven military types who jumped on her car and pulled guns because she bought a 12-pack of water.

What I see is a pattern. Not sure what it is you see.

What I kind of see is an arms race. The Gun Makers sell bigger and badder guns to the bad guys, the cops need to arm themselves with bigger and badder guns to compensate.

According to your own OP, this guy was able to get off 31 rounds vs. 250 fired by 12 cops. Now, I don't know what the magazine capacity on a 9mm Baretta is, but he had to reload at least twice. Yet all these rounds fired off, he wasn't killed.

He managed to wound/kill seven officers, while he was only hit twice himself. This wasn't some easy going hippy just growing some pot, this really does sound like a serious criminal.

That’s pretty much it: the ‘militarization’ of criminals.

The ‘arms race’ began back in the early 80s, when LEO turned in his revolver for a Glock, just like the drug dealers used.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You guys are basically arguing "chicken versus egg". In other words both positions have merit.

At the base of it is the root of the problem, and that is gun culture. Or more broadly, a culture of violence and vanquishment. A dichotomy of good versus evil, begetting a philosophy of "might makes right".

Fuck off. The gun culture has as much to do with violence as the car culture has to do with crashes.

Not really. We had violence long before we had guns but we needed cars to have car crashes. Think about it.
As a fatter o' mact I could argue that your phrase "fuck off" is itself a manifestation of that culture of violence. Ironic.

Now you could say car crashes are a product of consumerist culture. Better analogy.

In other words, you are an idiot.

 

[Pogo]

Fuck off. The gun culture has as much to do with violence as the car culture has to do with crashes.

Not really. We had violence long before we had guns but we needed cars to have car crashes. Think about it.
As a fatter o' mact I could argue that your phrase "fuck off" is itself a manifestation of that culture of violence. Ironic.

Now you could say car crashes are a product of consumerist culture. Better analogy.

In other words, you are an idiot.

In the same words you just affirmed the argument.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

[

I don't speculate things into the story I have no evidence for, so no I have no idea what the girlfriend's story was, because it's not in the article -- double duh.

What I do see is twelve guys in military garb with a battering ram acting on hearsay about a plant. What I see is Fish & Wildlife pulling a military raid on a woman suspected of owing a student loan. What I see is a gambling suspect shot dead by a military posse because he reached for a cell phone; what I see is a 20-year old college student swarmed by seven military types who jumped on her car and pulled guns because she bought a 12-pack of water.

What I see is a pattern. Not sure what it is you see.

What I kind of see is an arms race. The Gun Makers sell bigger and badder guns to the bad guys, the cops need to arm themselves with bigger and badder guns to compensate.

According to your own OP, this guy was able to get off 31 rounds vs. 250 fired by 12 cops. Now, I don't know what the magazine capacity on a 9mm Baretta is, but he had to reload at least twice. Yet all these rounds fired off, he wasn't killed.

He managed to wound/kill seven officers, while he was only hit twice himself. This wasn't some easy going hippy just growing some pot, this really does sound like a serious criminal.

That’s pretty much it: the ‘militarization’ of criminals.

The ‘arms race’ began back in the early 80s, when LEO turned in his revolver for a Glock, just like the drug dealers used.

Which criminals have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars to make sure they can out shoot cops? Is there a SCOTUS case? Did you ever find a decision that backs up your claim that the 10th Amendment applies to states?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Not really. We had violence long before we had guns but we needed cars to have car crashes. Think about it.
As a fatter o' mact I could argue that your phrase "fuck off" is itself a manifestation of that culture of violence. Ironic.

Now you could say car crashes are a product of consumerist culture. Better analogy.

In other words, you are an idiot.

In the same words you just affirmed the argument.

Actually, if the car culture was about crashes more people would attend the Smash Bash Demolition Derby than attend the Chicago Auto show. Since that, clearly, is not the case, the only thing I affirmed is your idiocy.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Guy, you are a whackjob... all there is to do is insult you.

Frankly, I want these cops to be able to go home to their families, so I want them to have the equipment they need. It's unfortunate the gunmakers have turned our streets into war zones. It's unfortunate that the NRA and idiots think this is just wonderful, because their fear makes it impossible to pass common sense gun laws.

But until we have common sense gun laws, I want the guys who have to take out the garbage to have the equipment to do so.

You are partially right, insults are all you have because you cannot come up with an argument that actually makes sense.

Frankly, that attitude is the root of the problem. Tell the cops that them going home to their families is more important than whether or not the guy they shoot is actually trying to kill them and they end up shooting people who are running away from them.

Concord police kill suspect in Antioch - SFGate

They also end up shooting people when they break down the wrong door and innocent people react to their houses being invaded.

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - ABC News

You can call me crazy all day long, it won't change the fact that you are defending people who get away with murder if anyone else did it.

You guys are basically arguing "chicken versus egg". In other words both positions have merit.

At the base of it is the root of the problem, and that is gun culture. Or more broadly, a culture of violence and vanquishment. A dichotomy of good versus evil, begetting a philosophy of "might makes right".

You’re correct ‘more broadly,’ it’s the sanctioned violence in American culture, having little or nothing to do with guns or its ‘culture.’

As long as violence in America is perceived and sanctioned as a legitimate form of conflict resolution, we will continue to be an excessively violent society – and militarized police forces are a sanctioned form of violence pursuant to conflict resolution.

 

[Pogo]

In other words, you are an idiot.

In the same words you just affirmed the argument.

Actually, if the car culture was about crashes more people would attend the Smash Bash Demolition Derby than attend the Chicago Auto show. Since that, clearly, is not the case, the only thing I affirmed is your idiocy.

Actually you just affirmed me again. In two different ways.

You're not really following this, are you?

 

[Pogo]

You are partially right, insults are all you have because you cannot come up with an argument that actually makes sense.

Frankly, that attitude is the root of the problem. Tell the cops that them going home to their families is more important than whether or not the guy they shoot is actually trying to kill them and they end up shooting people who are running away from them.

Concord police kill suspect in Antioch - SFGate

They also end up shooting people when they break down the wrong door and innocent people react to their houses being invaded.

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - ABC News

You can call me crazy all day long, it won't change the fact that you are defending people who get away with murder if anyone else did it.

You guys are basically arguing "chicken versus egg". In other words both positions have merit.

At the base of it is the root of the problem, and that is gun culture. Or more broadly, a culture of violence and vanquishment. A dichotomy of good versus evil, begetting a philosophy of "might makes right".

You’re correct ‘more broadly,’ it’s the sanctioned violence in American culture, having little or nothing to do with guns or its ‘culture.’

As long as violence in America is perceived and sanctioned as a legitimate form of conflict resolution, we will continue to be an excessively violent society – and militarized police forces are a sanctioned form of violence pursuant to conflict resolution.

Bingo. THAT was the point.

The culture of violence and the whole good-evil dichotomy behind it predate the invention of firearms by a long way. Some here, all they see is "guns" and they salivate, and the point sails over their head.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You are partially right, insults are all you have because you cannot come up with an argument that actually makes sense.

Frankly, that attitude is the root of the problem. Tell the cops that them going home to their families is more important than whether or not the guy they shoot is actually trying to kill them and they end up shooting people who are running away from them.

Concord police kill suspect in Antioch - SFGate

They also end up shooting people when they break down the wrong door and innocent people react to their houses being invaded.

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - ABC News

You can call me crazy all day long, it won't change the fact that you are defending people who get away with murder if anyone else did it.

You guys are basically arguing "chicken versus egg". In other words both positions have merit.

At the base of it is the root of the problem, and that is gun culture. Or more broadly, a culture of violence and vanquishment. A dichotomy of good versus evil, begetting a philosophy of "might makes right".

You’re correct ‘more broadly,’ it’s the sanctioned violence in American culture, having little or nothing to do with guns or its ‘culture.’

As long as violence in America is perceived and sanctioned as a legitimate form of conflict resolution, we will continue to be an excessively violent society – and militarized police forces are a sanctioned form of violence pursuant to conflict resolution.

Umm, what? Who, other than you, perceives violence as a form of conflict resolution, legitimate or otherwise? Why is your perception of this limited to America? Do you not think other countries are willing to use violence? Why do they have governments if they don't understand that violence is a way to get things done?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You guys are basically arguing "chicken versus egg". In other words both positions have merit.

At the base of it is the root of the problem, and that is gun culture. Or more broadly, a culture of violence and vanquishment. A dichotomy of good versus evil, begetting a philosophy of "might makes right".

You’re correct ‘more broadly,’ it’s the sanctioned violence in American culture, having little or nothing to do with guns or its ‘culture.’

As long as violence in America is perceived and sanctioned as a legitimate form of conflict resolution, we will continue to be an excessively violent society – and militarized police forces are a sanctioned form of violence pursuant to conflict resolution.

Bingo. THAT was the point.

The culture of violence and the whole good-evil dichotomy behind it predate the invention of firearms by a long way. Some here, all they see is "guns" and they salivate, and the point sails over their head.

Your point is that you share a delusion with Jones?

 

[JoeB131]

[

You are partially right, insults are all you have because you cannot come up with an argument that actually makes sense.

Frankly, that attitude is the root of the problem. Tell the cops that them going home to their families is more important than whether or not the guy they shoot is actually trying to kill them and they end up shooting people who are running away from them.

Concord police kill suspect in Antioch - SFGate

They also end up shooting people when they break down the wrong door and innocent people react to their houses being invaded.

Man Dies in Police Raid on Wrong House - ABC News

You can call me crazy all day long, it won't change the fact that you are defending people who get away with murder if anyone else did it.

So don't shoot back and don't run away... Not seeing a problem here.