Ron Paul: Crimea Secedes. So What?...

[paulitician]

It will be very interesting to see what our reaction is if Scotland and Venice vote to Secede. Will we label them 'Illegal Referendums' too?

 

[tinydancer]

Just so people know the truth instead of bullshit we get fed by our leaders and our media. You tell me what was Russia supposed to do? The Ukraine was ripping off the rest of Europe.

Russia claimed Ukraine was not paying for gas, but diverting that which was intended to be exported to the EU from the pipelines.

Ukrainian officials at first denied the accusation, but later Naftohaz admitted that natural gas intended for other European countries was retained and used for domestic needs.

The dispute reached a crescendo on 1 January 2006, when Russia cut off all gas supplies passing through Ukrainian territory.

On 4 January 2006, a preliminary agreement between Russia and Ukraine was achieved, and the supply was restored.

Russia?Ukraine gas disputes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[bendog]

Ah, well the Brits are ok with Scotland going .... along with economic pain.

Italy probably wouldn't let Venice go ... despite the cost of "floating" it. (-:

 

[tinydancer]

"Stepped in to help protect" Can you guess who said something very similar around 60 years ago?


Hundreds of people died when Russia used energy to extort the Ukraine and bring them to heel. Putin was testing the waters then, but we had a real president he knew he could only fuck with so much. Now however...

Just an FYI. The reason the Russians had to turn off the taps in the mid 2000's was because the Ukraine was siphoning off and storing fuel destined for the EU. True story. Even a lawsuit against the Ukraine by I believe it was Sweden.

And you must remember that Russia was allowed up to 25,000 troops in Crimea. Huge naval base.

And you bet your sweet bippy Putin was going to protect his naval base in Crimea. I would expect no less of America if Qatar was overthrown by radicals and your only base in the middle east and your people were potentially threatened.

President Bush would have handled this situation quite differently. Diplomacy.Behind the scenes.

Not chest thumping and banty rooster strutting like what we saw from the punks from Chicago on the Potomac.

This is what we get with "not ready for prime time players". And I don't know if the diplomatic rift can ever be healed at this point.

W was a sheer genius with Georgia. Not. "I looked into his soul."

Freaking better than pushing for WWIII over the bloody EU.

 

[paulitician]

"Stepped in to help protect" Can you guess who said something very similar around 60 years ago?


Hundreds of people died when Russia used energy to extort the Ukraine and bring them to heel. Putin was testing the waters then, but we had a real president he knew he could only fuck with so much. Now however...

Just an FYI. The reason the Russians had to turn off the taps in the mid 2000's was because the Ukraine was siphoning off and storing fuel destined for the EU. True story. Even a lawsuit against the Ukraine by I believe it was Sweden.

And you must remember that Russia was allowed up to 25,000 troops in Crimea. Huge naval base.

And you bet your sweet bippy Putin was going to protect his naval base in Crimea. I would expect no less of America if Qatar was overthrown by radicals and your only base in the middle east and your people were potentially threatened.

President Bush would have handled this situation quite differently. Diplomacy.Behind the scenes.

Not chest thumping and banty rooster strutting like what we saw from the punks from Chicago on the Potomac.

This is what we get with "not ready for prime time players". And I don't know if the diplomatic rift can ever be healed at this point.

W was a sheer genius with Georgia. Not. "I looked into his soul."

Actually, Bush, McCain and the Neocons wanted to intervene there too. And they were rightfully ridiculed and rebuffed. But i have to give the Neocons credit for being honest and consistent. I can't say the same about the Warmongering Communists/Progressives. They've proven themselves to be dishonest hypocrites. What makes Ukrainians better than Georgians? What makes them so special? Why such a rush to confrontation with Russia? Is it only because their Dear Leader told them they should support it? Is it really that simple? I sure hope not, but who knows?

 

[tinydancer]

And I remembered siort of correctly. It wasn't Sweden. That was the court. One more time Russia did not turn off the taps for no reason at all. The Ukraine was ripping off Europe.

On June 8, 2010, a Stockholm court of arbitration ruled Naftohaz of Ukraine must return 12.1 billion cubic metres (430 billion cubic feet) of gas to RosUkrEnergo, a Swiss-based company in which Gazprom controls a 50% stake.

Russia accused Ukrainian side of siphoning gas from pipelines passing through Ukraine in 2009. Several high-ranking Ukrainian officials stated the return "would not be quick"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia–Ukraine_gas_disputes

 

[emilynghiem]

Let them have dual or triple citizenship.
Let Crimea be its own sovereign district,
and then have options to participate in either
the EU or with Russia or both. (Hawaii, DC, and
Puerto Rico may need similar arrangements,
to preserve both their local identity and autonomy
but also retain protection of the federal US govt.)

I could see a lot more independent city-states
developing some kind of "dual status" under a larger union, if we can
set up a working model using Crimea or other such states.

Kashmir, East Timor, how many other regions go through this same thing?

Given the growing diversity in the world, and the natural progression
toward regions becoming self-governing, we need to have a process
set up for this anyway. We already know change and growth are going to happen, why
not take the political violence and bloodshed out of the equation
and deal with political stages of development civilly by consensus and not coercion?

Residents of Crimea voted over the weekend on whether they would remain an autonomous region of Ukraine or join the Russian Federation. In so doing, they joined a number of countries and regions — including recently Scotland, Catalonia and Venice — that are seeking to secede from what they view as unresponsive or oppressive governments.

These latter three are proceeding without much notice, while the overwhelming Crimea vote to secede from Ukraine has incensed U.S. and European Union officials, and has led NATO closer to conflict with Russia than since the height of the Cold War.

What's the big deal? Opponents of the Crimea vote like to point to the illegality of the referendum. But self-determination is a centerpiece of international law. Article I of the United Nations Charter points out clearly that the purpose of the U.N. is to "develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples."

Why does the U.S. care which flag will be hoisted on a small piece of land thousands of miles away?

Critics point to the Russian "occupation" of Crimea as evidence that no fair vote could have taken place. Where were these people when an election held in an Iraq occupied by U.S. troops was called a "triumph of democracy"?

Perhaps the U.S. officials who supported the unconstitutional overthrow of Ukraine's government should refocus their energies on learning our own Constitution, which does not allow the U.S. government to overthrow governments overseas or send a billion dollars to bail out Ukraine and its international creditors.

Though the Obama administration has applied some minimal sanctions on selected Russian and Crimean individuals, neither the U.S. nor the EU can afford significant sanctions against Russia. Global trade provides too much economic benefit to both sides.

Indeed, international markets rallied on news that the sanctions would be thus far minimal. They understand that trade and economic engagement are the surest roads to peace and prosperity. Let's hope governments will follow their lead.

Ron Paul: Crimea secedes. So what?
DRUDGE REPORT 2014®

 

[Contumacious]

Residents of Crimea voted over the weekend on whether they would remain an autonomous region of Ukraine or join the Russian Federation. In so doing, they joined a number of countries and regions — including recently Scotland, Catalonia and Venice — that are seeking to secede from what they view as unresponsive or oppressive governments.

No sir. You are wrong. That is NOT the way it works.

Take the Honorable Abraham Lincoln for example, he sent the northern troops south of the Mason Dixie Line, slaughtered 650,000 Americans and then , at gun point, forced them rebels to ratify the Fourteenth Amendment. He crushed the secession movement. He retained the real state. We erected a monument for him in DC.

That was exactly what the Ukrainian nazis were supposed to do. What a bunch of pussies !!!!!!!!!!!!!

.

 

[paulitician]

Residents of Crimea voted over the weekend on whether they would remain an autonomous region of Ukraine or join the Russian Federation. In so doing, they joined a number of countries and regions — including recently Scotland, Catalonia and Venice — that are seeking to secede from what they view as unresponsive or oppressive governments.

No sir. You are wrong. That is NOT the way it works.

Take the Honorable Abraham Lincoln for example, he sent the northern troops south of the Mason Dixie Line, slaughtered 650,000 Americans and then , at gun point, forced them rebels to ratify the Fourteenth Amendment. He crushed the secession movement. He retained the real state. We erected a monument for him in DC.

That was exactly what the Ukrainian nazis were supposed to do. What a bunch of pussies !!!!!!!!!!!!!

.

Yeah, the Scotland and Venice Referendums are gonna be very interesting. What if they choose Secession? What will the U.S. and Great Britain do about it? It could get pretty sticky.

 

[Unkotare]

Wow, I think some members need a crash course in 20th century history...

If you think we have no dog in the fight, look up appeasement and Hitler. If you think global events have no bearing on US politics, European politics or our way of life, re-examine the cold war. For those of you who didn't hit puberty until the year 2000, ask your elders.

The US is not canada...we can't sit back and watch as significant nations handle worldly social and economic issues. Now more than ever, we have to be diligent considering the way of life we appreciate and the fact that we live in a global economy. We can't ride the coattails of another nation (like canada) or depend on the UN, the EU or NATO to take action. We can't allow this aggression to happen because it will ultimately erupt into a much bigger European conflict....probably led by the Germans, given their history of war, death and attempted genocide.

We are the major player in the world - and considering the blood lust and power mongering of Europe coupled with the failure of the EU economy - events like Crimea can only serve as a breeding ground for a major conflict. Imagine a Europe where there is an oil shortage, where the balance of trade is skewed...

The US must be involved or Europe will degrade into a war zone, ultimately dragging the US into their hate, war and pestilence. Given history, do you really want to trust Europe to handle this issue?

Ah, the old 'He's a Hitler' argument. That argument is pretty sad and outdated. Less people are buying that Bullshite these days. Anyone who disagrees with the U.S. and Great Britain must be a 'Hitler.' I'm done with that charade. I think many others are too.

A whole lot of people bought into the 'end of war' bullshit before WWII as well. In fact, they were so "done with that charade" that they waited until it was too late to do anything.

As they say, those who fail to learn from history...

 

[Unkotare]

That you're not smart enough to comprehend what I'm saying is only second to your content retardant posts.

That you cant explain yourself is even funnier...in a sad way.

Comparing guns to your head voting to our elections is bullshit and you know it

So, your contention here is that russians actually showed up in Crimea and put guns to each voters head? Is that what you're going with?

Do you think the Russian army showed up with lollipops and ice cream?

 

[paulitician]

Wow, I think some members need a crash course in 20th century history...

If you think we have no dog in the fight, look up appeasement and Hitler. If you think global events have no bearing on US politics, European politics or our way of life, re-examine the cold war. For those of you who didn't hit puberty until the year 2000, ask your elders.

The US is not canada...we can't sit back and watch as significant nations handle worldly social and economic issues. Now more than ever, we have to be diligent considering the way of life we appreciate and the fact that we live in a global economy. We can't ride the coattails of another nation (like canada) or depend on the UN, the EU or NATO to take action. We can't allow this aggression to happen because it will ultimately erupt into a much bigger European conflict....probably led by the Germans, given their history of war, death and attempted genocide.

We are the major player in the world - and considering the blood lust and power mongering of Europe coupled with the failure of the EU economy - events like Crimea can only serve as a breeding ground for a major conflict. Imagine a Europe where there is an oil shortage, where the balance of trade is skewed...

The US must be involved or Europe will degrade into a war zone, ultimately dragging the US into their hate, war and pestilence. Given history, do you really want to trust Europe to handle this issue?

Ah, the old 'He's a Hitler' argument. That argument is pretty sad and outdated. Less people are buying that Bullshite these days. Anyone who disagrees with the U.S. and Great Britain must be a 'Hitler.' I'm done with that charade. I think many others are too.

A whole lot of people bought into the 'end of war' bullshit before WWII as well. In fact, they were so "done with that charade" that they waited until it was too late to do anything.

As they say, those who fail to learn from history...

It's a disingenuous antiquated argument. Disagreeing with the U.S. and Great Britain doesn't make one 'Another Hitler.' I mean, how many 'Another Hitlers' are we up to now?

 

[Unkotare]

It was put to a vote and they made a decision.

No, they didn't. One was made for them.

 

[Unkotare]

If you want a comparison the resolution is, you cannot take a person's ethnic identity against their will. In America we expect them to give it up voluntarily.

No we don't.

 

[Contumacious]

That you cant explain yourself is even funnier...in a sad way.

Comparing guns to your head voting to our elections is bullshit and you know it

So, your contention here is that russians actually showed up in Crimea and put guns to each voters head? Is that what you're going with?

Do you think the Russian army showed up with lollipops and ice cream?

Exactly.

Here the Russkies are forcing the people to demonstrate:

.

 

[bendog]

Residents of Crimea voted over the weekend on whether they would remain an autonomous region of Ukraine or join the Russian Federation. In so doing, they joined a number of countries and regions — including recently Scotland, Catalonia and Venice — that are seeking to secede from what they view as unresponsive or oppressive governments.

No sir. You are wrong. That is NOT the way it works.

Take the Honorable Abraham Lincoln for example, he sent the northern troops south of the Mason Dixie Line, slaughtered 650,000 Americans and then , at gun point, forced them rebels to ratify the Fourteenth Amendment. He crushed the secession movement. He retained the real state. We erected a monument for him in DC.

That was exactly what the Ukrainian nazis were supposed to do. What a bunch of pussies !!!!!!!!!!!!!

.

Yeah, the Scotland and Venice Referendums are gonna be very interesting. What if they choose Secession? What will the U.S. and Great Britain do about it? It could get pretty sticky.

spam a lot

 

[Unkotare]

DO you think we can stop the violence, force and coercion with more violence, force and coercion? If we do it in the name of democracy, does it change the violence, force and coercion to something else?

You don't stand up to a bully by bending over; nor do you stand up to a bully by asking him to use a little lube while he is raping you. You stand up to a bully by saying NO and refusing to bend over. If you don't say no, then what is to stop the bully from raping or molesting someone else? The rule of law, which the bully already ignored? How about appealing to the bully's sense of justice and peace...oh, he already ignored that also!

And who said we needed to do anything in the name of democracy? How about we stand up to the bullies in the name of peace, to preserve world order?

No one is bullying the US. No is bullying Crimea for that matter. If anything, the US and Russia are being the bullies here. Each side calling the other one the bully.

So in your view, we can bomb, maim and kill the world into peace? Or maybe we can sanction, treaty, memorandum our way there? So far, it's all a bunch of bullshit and historical observations has shown this idea to not only be wrong, but completely abjectly fucking wrong. Lets give it another try for insanity's sake though. Fuck it.

You make an excellent victim. Tyrants and despots have relied on the spinelessness of people like you since time immemorial.

 

[Unkotare]

There's no doubt W lied about self defense and Iraq.

He did not.

 

[bendog]

There's no doubt W lied about self defense and Iraq.

He did not.

Ok, he deluded himself then.

 

[Unkotare]

Ah, the old 'He's a Hitler' argument. That argument is pretty sad and outdated. Less people are buying that Bullshite these days. Anyone who disagrees with the U.S. and Great Britain must be a 'Hitler.' I'm done with that charade. I think many others are too.

A whole lot of people bought into the 'end of war' bullshit before WWII as well. In fact, they were so "done with that charade" that they waited until it was too late to do anything.

As they say, those who fail to learn from history...

It's a disingenuous antiquated argument.

Recognizing historical patterns is not "disingenuous" or "antiquated." Failing to do so is irresponsible and short-sighted.