Ron Paul: Crimea Secedes. So What?...

[tinydancer]

Do you think the Russian army showed up with lollipops and ice cream?

Come on they didn't "show up".

They are based in Crimea for crying out loud. Allowed to have up to 25,000 troops.
1997 treaty with the Ukraine. Their Black Sea Fleet is based out of Crimea.

So that footage of Russian forces rolling across the border was all special effects?

So they can only swim into Crimea? Parachute in to Crimea? Dig a tunnel into Crimea?

I missed that part of the treaty I guess.

At this point the Russians will do whatever they have to to protect their gas plants and gas lines from sabotage.

Right Sector is already threatening disruptions. Only people that will suffer would be Ukrainians and Europe but then the Right Sector are crazies and wouldn't care.

They're a special kind of crazy.

 

[Pogo]

[

Either he deluded himself (unconscious lie) or he lied deliberately. The only third option is that it never happened.

No, those are not the 'options.' You're being a hyper-partisan douche again.

Actually I'm being a logician, like it or lump it. An act is either conscious or unconscious. Your incessant butting in to declare "no it isn't" on everything that whizzes by while offering no alternative on what it is, is what we call "Tuesday".

 

[Unkotare]

Come on they didn't "show up".

They are based in Crimea for crying out loud. Allowed to have up to 25,000 troops.
1997 treaty with the Ukraine. Their Black Sea Fleet is based out of Crimea.

So that footage of Russian forces rolling across the border was all special effects?

So they can only swim into Crimea? Parachute in to Crimea? Dig a tunnel into Crimea?

You are so afraid of the most unlikely of scenarios that you would carry Putin's water in such a shameless fashion? Not a good look.

 

[Unkotare]

[

Either he deluded himself (unconscious lie) or he lied deliberately. The only third option is that it never happened.

No, those are not the 'options.' You're being a hyper-partisan douche again.

Actually I'm being a logician....

No, you're not. You don't even know what that means, as we have previously established.

 

[pvsi]

Critics point to the Russian "occupation" of Crimea as evidence that no fair vote could have taken place. Where were these people when an election held in an Iraq occupied by U.S. troops was called a "triumph of democracy"?

American military was needed to ensure that Al Saddr and any other non US friendly candidate would not be on a ballot. countries like Libya and Syria stated clearly that they are ready to hold elections before violence escalated, in my view there is nothing more obvious that US government is afraid of democracy.

 

[pvsi]

My question exactly. If the people vote to join Russia, who are we to tell them they cannot?

This statement should be made into a thread, and the 3 of us should ensure that this thread stays above all the gay, rabbi, lesbo, obamabasher, and other nuisance threads...

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Critics point to the Russian "occupation" of Crimea as evidence that no fair vote could have taken place. Where were these people when an election held in an Iraq occupied by U.S. troops was called a "triumph of democracy"?

American military was needed to ensure that Al Saddr and any other non US friendly candidate would not be on a ballot. countries like Libya and Syria stated clearly that they are ready to hold elections before violence escalated, in my view there is nothing more obvious that US government is afraid of democracy.

The issue has nothing to do with being ‘afraid of democracy’ and everything to do with respect for the rule of law.

 

[Steinlight]

Critics point to the Russian "occupation" of Crimea as evidence that no fair vote could have taken place. Where were these people when an election held in an Iraq occupied by U.S. troops was called a "triumph of democracy"?

American military was needed to ensure that Al Saddr and any other non US friendly candidate would not be on a ballot. countries like Libya and Syria stated clearly that they are ready to hold elections before violence escalated, in my view there is nothing more obvious that US government is afraid of democracy.

The issue has nothing to do with being ‘afraid of democracy’ and everything to do with respect for the rule of law.

The Founding Fathers didn't honor the "rule of law" of the British Empire, of which they were subjects, by seceding. So you would be a Tory by that logic. Better take the Constitution out of your avatar. It is the legal framework for a nation founded "illegally".

 

[Ame®icano]

The U.S. and Great Britain love Referendums when they feel they can benefit from them. Otherwise, everyone's a 'Hitler' and they're 'illegal.' I have a feeling the Brits aren't too happy about Scotland's coming Referendum. All i can say is...GO SCOTLAND!!

Few points here:

Since we're talking about legality of Crimean referendum, lets mention legality of things that preceded it, like constitutionality of abolition of Russian language, or even way that piece of shit Yanukovych was impeached from office. Once Kiev abandoned their own Constitution, they have no say about constitutionality of Crimean referendum.

Six years ago US government claimed that Kosovo has right to secede (Albanian Kosovars were minority in the Serbian state but large majority in the Kosovo province). The same principle applies to Crimea.

All those sanctions from our chairmen Barry are whole lotta nothing, smokescreen. Didn't our chairman Obamao promised to go easy on Putin after he got re-elected? Plus, Russia is a bite that is just too large to swallow.

And last, Putin mistake is that he rushed to accept Crimea as part of Russia. If referendum options were: stay in Ukraine or become independent state and Crimea chose to be independent, nobody would complain and later Crimea could join Russia without problems.

 

[Pogo]

So, your contention here is that russians actually showed up in Crimea and put guns to each voters head? Is that what you're going with?

Do you think the Russian army showed up with lollipops and ice cream?

Come on they didn't "show up".

They are based in Crimea for crying out loud. Allowed to have up to 25,000 troops.
1997 treaty with the Ukraine. Their Black Sea Fleet is based out of Crimea.

Wait hold up TD... you say you're Ukrainian, and you're calling it "the Ukraine"?

 

[U2Edge]

Residents of Crimea voted over the weekend on whether they would remain an autonomous region of Ukraine or join the Russian Federation. In so doing, they joined a number of countries and regions — including recently Scotland, Catalonia and Venice — that are seeking to secede from what they view as unresponsive or oppressive governments.

These latter three are proceeding without much notice, while the overwhelming Crimea vote to secede from Ukraine has incensed U.S. and European Union officials, and has led NATO closer to conflict with Russia than since the height of the Cold War.

What's the big deal? Opponents of the Crimea vote like to point to the illegality of the referendum. But self-determination is a centerpiece of international law. Article I of the United Nations Charter points out clearly that the purpose of the U.N. is to "develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples."

Why does the U.S. care which flag will be hoisted on a small piece of land thousands of miles away?

Critics point to the Russian "occupation" of Crimea as evidence that no fair vote could have taken place. Where were these people when an election held in an Iraq occupied by U.S. troops was called a "triumph of democracy"?

Perhaps the U.S. officials who supported the unconstitutional overthrow of Ukraine's government should refocus their energies on learning our own Constitution, which does not allow the U.S. government to overthrow governments overseas or send a billion dollars to bail out Ukraine and its international creditors.

Though the Obama administration has applied some minimal sanctions on selected Russian and Crimean individuals, neither the U.S. nor the EU can afford significant sanctions against Russia. Global trade provides too much economic benefit to both sides.

Indeed, international markets rallied on news that the sanctions would be thus far minimal. They understand that trade and economic engagement are the surest roads to peace and prosperity. Let's hope governments will follow their lead.

Ron Paul: Crimea secedes. So what?
DRUDGE REPORT 2014®

The difference with Scotland, Catalonia and Venice is that any procedure to conduct a referendum on independence in Scotland, Catalonia and Venice is done with the consent of the rest of the country and the national government. That's not the case in Crimea. Crimean independence referendum is being conducted without the consent of the national government or the rest of Ukraine. It is being conducted at the point of a Russian gun, and outside independent international observers from the OSCE and the United Nations have been barred from entering the Crimea by Russian troops.

Let me remind you that 70% of the government budget in Crimea comes from tax dollars collected in the rest of Ukraine. 90% of Crimea's oil and natural gas comes from the rest of Ukraine. So the idea that Crimea can just stand up and walk away from the Ukraine is not justified under any of the present circumstances. Crimea has no more right to leave Ukraine than Mississippi has a right to leave the United States.

Russia has illegally invaded another country and seized territory and annexed it into Russia. Russia has no more right to sieze and annex Crimea from Ukraine than it does to sieze and annex Alaska from the United States. Yes, Crimea used to be apart of Russia, but so was Alaska at one time, and Alaska spent more time apart of Russia than the Crimea.

This is just crazy and what happens parallels exactly what Hitler did in Austria and Czechoslovakia in the 1930s. Ethnic Russians were not in any danger at all. The only people who had been killed and tortured in the past weeks were innocent protestors in the streets of Kiev. The government led by Yukonivich had over 100 protesters murdered on the streets of Kiev in mid-February. That is why the people overthrew him. You can't KILL people for protesting. That is against the law and against human rights.

But because Putins man in Kiev was overthrown, Putin decided he was not going to take that lying down and invaded an annexed Ukraines Crimea region. This is Hitler at his best, and the question now is, who's next? What if Russia decides that ethnic Russians in Estonia or Latvia need "protection" and invade those countries? World War III. Those are NATO countries and an attack on Estonia is considered an attack on the United States and all other NATO countries.

So that is why people are deeply concerned by this. Russia has turned back towards its ruthless imperial and expansionist past and this is a serious threat to the entire planet!

 

[U2Edge]

"Perhaps the U.S. officials who supported the unconstitutional overthrow of Ukraine's government should refocus their energies on learning our own Constitution, which does not allow the U.S. government to overthrow governments overseas or send a billion dollars to bail out Ukraine and its international creditors."

The constitution certainly allows the government to defend the country and defending the country has involved overthrowing threatening dictators in the past like Hitler and Saddam.

 

[aalexan99]

Euromaidan - the start of new era.

The usual senario of american revolts worked in a unexpected way this time in Ukraine. The usual facebook twitter vkontakte group messages was enough to make ukranians believe that they were fighting for something which will make their lives better. People died... And Ukranians won this because they stopped fighting... They understood that there is no person worth fighting for among their polititians. Now they realized that they are wrong... And this is where they had the victory.

But every fight brings destruction and you have to watch the consequences. Putin saw this an opportunity and realized how much he could won from this. While russian stock exchange went down because of Crimea, Putin ordered to buy back shares of energy companies at lower prices from foreigners. So he gave back dollars to americans and took back russian oil and gas. Even when ruble went down they did not interfere. Now we can see that Crimea was not only a political game but also a well played financial attack, which I belive was the first shot fired in the new Financial War.

I understood that the big financial war is coming, when I heard the news that the very same week when all eyes were on Crimea, China declared that they dont want dollar anymore but they want gold instead. So victorios revolt in Ukraine turned out to be to biiter to eat for the White House.

We are not stupid and we understand that the question of food and water is not something we undermind. When tomorrow will come there will be hunger and politicians know that. This is why they make a long term rents of lands for agreculture from weak economies. And Ukraine is the food stock for half of Russia, Europe, Middle East etc. So the lands of western Ukraine are very important for Europes survival. So the reason of Euromaidan is very clear to me. While people are fighting for today, liders fight for tomorrow.

If Ukraine and Russia stops coworking half of Russia will be hungry and Ukraine will be left without energy sources. It is destiny that bind them together. They are something inseparable not only economically. Culturally there is never been a country called Ukraine. Ukraine exists just several decades. Kiev on the other half is the mother city of all Russian cities. And every russian knows that. So when you put your knfie to cut them of, they pull each other stronger...

What will happen in a few years? Or may be even sooner than that...

If I was Putin, I would see further than Crimea lands... Americans treatened Russia with sunctions? No really? Do they understand what will happen if Russia stops selling goods abroad and finally realize that they should use them to build their country? Russia is not like others... It is very self sufficient country if you did not know that yet.. Yep, it is cheaper to buy chiken from USA, but it does not mean they can not produce it...You just can not put sanctions on such a country as Russia... It is impossible because of simple fact that all world will suffer...

Or yeah.. Putin definitly knows own power...

So... I was Putin... I would come together with China, Iran, all this smaller countries and unite then with a new money. Why not? America cant give back its debt, but Russia still can... with gold and oil and gas... what if he creates an oil money? Now China says they dont want dollar... What if America does not have any gold? May be they spent it and this will be another big scandal? Many central banks keeps their gold in America.. What if there is no gold? I would not be surprised because world gold trade is in the hands of private banks. And those guys surprise us every year with some big scandals. Yeah... then the stolen money is too big it is called scandal...

When I saw this picture in my head it come clear to me that this senario is already being played. Dollar for too long time was dominant in the world. Of cause big counries like China and Rissia should have thought how to get rid of it... Importance of dollar is in international trade, and you have to pay for it with goods. But actually it is just a paper... All was good until they realised in 2008 that they can not trust Western polititians any more.

Ona another thing is that people in China and Russia are much less effected by powerfull media of western countries because they developed their own facebooks and twitters, cinemas and documentary. People here are more educated than anywhere else on the planet. You just can not trick them second time...

So, if there were a good alternative to dollar, supported by several counries like Russia and China and used only for foreign trade it will have it popularity for sure. Worth of money is defined by trust of people, not by gold or something else. So these countries can create this trust for sure.

This financial war they are starting will bring more inflation to the world economies... More money printed in total - less it worth. Less its worth - old things like water and food will have real worth for people same way it happens in all wars...

It is just a matter of time...

 

[Unkotare]

People here are more educated than anywhere else on the planet. You just can not trick them second time......

Where is "here"?

 

[aalexan99]

Russia is considered to be one of the most educated countries in the world. You can search that on google

 

[frigidweirdo]

Residents of Crimea voted over the weekend on whether they would remain an autonomous region of Ukraine or join the Russian Federation. In so doing, they joined a number of countries and regions — including recently Scotland, Catalonia and Venice — that are seeking to secede from what they view as unresponsive or oppressive governments.

These latter three are proceeding without much notice, while the overwhelming Crimea vote to secede from Ukraine has incensed U.S. and European Union officials, and has led NATO closer to conflict with Russia than since the height of the Cold War.

What's the big deal? Opponents of the Crimea vote like to point to the illegality of the referendum. But self-determination is a centerpiece of international law. Article I of the United Nations Charter points out clearly that the purpose of the U.N. is to "develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples."

Why does the U.S. care which flag will be hoisted on a small piece of land thousands of miles away?

Critics point to the Russian "occupation" of Crimea as evidence that no fair vote could have taken place. Where were these people when an election held in an Iraq occupied by U.S. troops was called a "triumph of democracy"?

Perhaps the U.S. officials who supported the unconstitutional overthrow of Ukraine's government should refocus their energies on learning our own Constitution, which does not allow the U.S. government to overthrow governments overseas or send a billion dollars to bail out Ukraine and its international creditors.

Though the Obama administration has applied some minimal sanctions on selected Russian and Crimean individuals, neither the U.S. nor the EU can afford significant sanctions against Russia. Global trade provides too much economic benefit to both sides.

Indeed, international markets rallied on news that the sanctions would be thus far minimal. They understand that trade and economic engagement are the surest roads to peace and prosperity. Let's hope governments will follow their lead.

Ron Paul: Crimea secedes. So what?
DRUDGE REPORT 2014®

The difference with Scotland, Catalonia and Venice is that any procedure to conduct a referendum on independence in Scotland, Catalonia and Venice is done with the consent of the rest of the country and the national government. That's not the case in Crimea. Crimean independence referendum is being conducted without the consent of the national government or the rest of Ukraine. It is being conducted at the point of a Russian gun, and outside independent international observers from the OSCE and the United Nations have been barred from entering the Crimea by Russian troops.

Let me remind you that 70% of the government budget in Crimea comes from tax dollars collected in the rest of Ukraine. 90% of Crimea's oil and natural gas comes from the rest of Ukraine. So the idea that Crimea can just stand up and walk away from the Ukraine is not justified under any of the present circumstances. Crimea has no more right to leave Ukraine than Mississippi has a right to leave the United States.

Russia has illegally invaded another country and seized territory and annexed it into Russia. Russia has no more right to sieze and annex Crimea from Ukraine than it does to sieze and annex Alaska from the United States. Yes, Crimea used to be apart of Russia, but so was Alaska at one time, and Alaska spent more time apart of Russia than the Crimea.

This is just crazy and what happens parallels exactly what Hitler did in Austria and Czechoslovakia in the 1930s. Ethnic Russians were not in any danger at all. The only people who had been killed and tortured in the past weeks were innocent protestors in the streets of Kiev. The government led by Yukonivich had over 100 protesters murdered on the streets of Kiev in mid-February. That is why the people overthrew him. You can't KILL people for protesting. That is against the law and against human rights.

But because Putins man in Kiev was overthrown, Putin decided he was not going to take that lying down and invaded an annexed Ukraines Crimea region. This is Hitler at his best, and the question now is, who's next? What if Russia decides that ethnic Russians in Estonia or Latvia need "protection" and invade those countries? World War III. Those are NATO countries and an attack on Estonia is considered an attack on the United States and all other NATO countries.

So that is why people are deeply concerned by this. Russia has turned back towards its ruthless imperial and expansionist past and this is a serious threat to the entire planet!

Kosovo did not, and still does not have the consent of the Serbs, of which they were a part, and the US went in with their military and bombed Belgrade. This was 1999.

Why is Russia going into the Ukraine different? It is different, but the issues being spoken about here are not.

What about Venezuela, when the US helped out the coup against the democratically elected leader in 2002?

You can harp on about the Russians, but the US isn't much better.

 

[frigidweirdo]

The constitution certainly allows the government to defend the country and defending the country has involved overthrowing threatening dictators in the past like Hitler and Saddam.

And destroying the constitution and international law with Muslims in Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay.
And by locking Native Americans who have something to say the US govt doesn't like.
And trying to get rid of Hugo Chavez in Venezuela because he brought OPEC countries together and wanted to increase the price of oil.
And getting rid of Gaddafi because he was leader of an OPEC country that didn't like the US.
And getting rid of Saddam because he was leader of an OPEC country that didn't like the US.
And trying to get rid of the leaders of Iran because they are leaders of an OPEC country that didn't like the US.

But not getting rid of leaders of countries like Rwanda, Somalia, Ivory Coast, and many, many other countries that don't happen to be OPEC countries, or who, like Saudi Arabia and the worst Human Rights record in the world, support the US.

Hmm, they even allowed Pakistan to get a nuclear bomb.

Lovely job.

 

[Unkotare]

Russia is considered to be one of the most educated countries in the world. You can search that on google

"You can search that on google."


Irony.....

 

[Nutz]

Euromaidan - the start of new era.

The usual senario of american revolts worked in a unexpected way this time in Ukraine. The usual facebook twitter vkontakte group messages was enough to make ukranians believe that they were fighting for something which will make their lives better. People died... And Ukranians won this because they stopped fighting... They understood that there is no person worth fighting for among their polititians. Now they realized that they are wrong... And this is where they had the victory.

But every fight brings destruction and you have to watch the consequences. Putin saw this an opportunity and realized how much he could won from this. While russian stock exchange went down because of Crimea, Putin ordered to buy back shares of energy companies at lower prices from foreigners. So he gave back dollars to americans and took back russian oil and gas. Even when ruble went down they did not interfere. Now we can see that Crimea was not only a political game but also a well played financial attack, which I belive was the first shot fired in the new Financial War.

I understood that the big financial war is coming, when I heard the news that the very same week when all eyes were on Crimea, China declared that they dont want dollar anymore but they want gold instead. So victorios revolt in Ukraine turned out to be to biiter to eat for the White House.

We are not stupid and we understand that the question of food and water is not something we undermind. When tomorrow will come there will be hunger and politicians know that. This is why they make a long term rents of lands for agreculture from weak economies. And Ukraine is the food stock for half of Russia, Europe, Middle East etc. So the lands of western Ukraine are very important for Europes survival. So the reason of Euromaidan is very clear to me. While people are fighting for today, liders fight for tomorrow.

If Ukraine and Russia stops coworking half of Russia will be hungry and Ukraine will be left without energy sources. It is destiny that bind them together. They are something inseparable not only economically. Culturally there is never been a country called Ukraine. Ukraine exists just several decades. Kiev on the other half is the mother city of all Russian cities. And every russian knows that. So when you put your knfie to cut them of, they pull each other stronger...

What will happen in a few years? Or may be even sooner than that...

If I was Putin, I would see further than Crimea lands... Americans treatened Russia with sunctions? No really? Do they understand what will happen if Russia stops selling goods abroad and finally realize that they should use them to build their country? Russia is not like others... It is very self sufficient country if you did not know that yet.. Yep, it is cheaper to buy chiken from USA, but it does not mean they can not produce it...You just can not put sanctions on such a country as Russia... It is impossible because of simple fact that all world will suffer...

Or yeah.. Putin definitly knows own power...

So... I was Putin... I would come together with China, Iran, all this smaller countries and unite then with a new money. Why not? America cant give back its debt, but Russia still can... with gold and oil and gas... what if he creates an oil money? Now China says they dont want dollar... What if America does not have any gold? May be they spent it and this will be another big scandal? Many central banks keeps their gold in America.. What if there is no gold? I would not be surprised because world gold trade is in the hands of private banks. And those guys surprise us every year with some big scandals. Yeah... then the stolen money is too big it is called scandal...

When I saw this picture in my head it come clear to me that this senario is already being played. Dollar for too long time was dominant in the world. Of cause big counries like China and Rissia should have thought how to get rid of it... Importance of dollar is in international trade, and you have to pay for it with goods. But actually it is just a paper... All was good until they realised in 2008 that they can not trust Western polititians any more.

Ona another thing is that people in China and Russia are much less effected by powerfull media of western countries because they developed their own facebooks and twitters, cinemas and documentary. People here are more educated than anywhere else on the planet. You just can not trick them second time...

So, if there were a good alternative to dollar, supported by several counries like Russia and China and used only for foreign trade it will have it popularity for sure. Worth of money is defined by trust of people, not by gold or something else. So these countries can create this trust for sure.

This financial war they are starting will bring more inflation to the world economies... More money printed in total - less it worth. Less its worth - old things like water and food will have real worth for people same way it happens in all wars...

It is just a matter of time...

You are assuming, if a trade war or any conflict incurs, that the US would pay back its enemy...lol, I doubt that. Both the borrower and the lender are indebted and slave to one another.

In the end, your 'educated' people will be back in soup lines...wondering what genocidal event the Russian's will be responsible for in the 21st century.

 

[Unkotare]

The constitution certainly allows the government to defend the country and defending the country has involved overthrowing threatening dictators in the past like Hitler and Saddam.

And destroying the constitution and international law with Muslims in Camp X-Ray in Guantanamo Bay.

That has not happened.