Rules For Traditionals: How People In Wedding Trades Can Defend Themselves

[danielpalos]

A baker has no stake in a wedding, no role, no anything. Form of expression? What, now bakers are expressing support for weddings? When they sell other cakes what are they expressing and being part of? It;s a silly argument.

Bakers sell other cakes to gays. Do they know what gays do with cakes? Some gays MIGHT be using the cakes during sex. If a gay couple uses a cake during a sexual act, has the Christian offended his god because he participated in a sexual act?

We are talking ala carte Christianity here.
They pick and choose which biblical transgressions they refuse to do business with

Pick one:

Pregnant brides
Adulterers
Atheists
Mixed religions
Gay

Again, YOU don't get to qualify a person's moral compass.

I do get to judge it

And by all appearances, it is hypocricy in how their faith is applied

you get to comment on it, by judging you are more than commenting on it, and you don't have that right, and neither, in this case, does government.

As a dues paying member of USMB I get to judge anyone I wish

i would quibble, not if you are getting "paid to shill."

 

[martybegan]

A baker has no stake in a wedding, no role, no anything. Form of expression? What, now bakers are expressing support for weddings? When they sell other cakes what are they expressing and being part of? It;s a silly argument.

Bakers sell other cakes to gays. Do they know what gays do with cakes? Some gays MIGHT be using the cakes during sex. If a gay couple uses a cake during a sexual act, has the Christian offended his god because he participated in a sexual act?

We are talking ala carte Christianity here.
They pick and choose which biblical transgressions they refuse to do business with

Pick one:

Pregnant brides
Adulterers
Atheists
Mixed religions
Gay

Again, YOU don't get to qualify a person's moral compass.

I do get to judge it

And by all appearances, it is hypocricy in how their faith is applied

you get to comment on it, by judging you are more than commenting on it, and you don't have that right, and neither, in this case, does government.

As a dues paying member of USMB I get to judge anyone I wish

You get to comment on whatever you wish, you don't get to judge.

 

[martybegan]

The issue is a vendor claiming customers are not worthy of dignity due to who those customers might be.

So, cake is the measure of dignity?

If you're that stupid, than you're not worthy of dignity.

A customer is stripped of dignity when a vendor says she is not worthy of service due to her legal lifestyle.

I suggest the strip-ee grow a freaking spine.

So basically its all about acceptance, right?

news flash, it isn't right to use the government to force people to accept other people.

 

[Pop23]

Fairness equals determining which impact is worse, two people having to go to another baker, or using government to force people to comply with something against their beliefs. In the case of Jim Crow, the side was on force, in this situation, the side is on the gay couple going somewhere else.

So, "fairness" is making Gay customers settle for less? Fairness is a customer not being discriminated against simply because of who they are. Fairness is equal access to vendors who provide the services for every other customer. Fairness does not mean because you are Gay or Black or Asian or Latino you the customer must seek out alternatives.

The impact on Gay customers is the perpetuation of petty repression by those who are more filled with hate and fear than true Christian love.

As Gays are not committing any crime, presumably they are wearing shirts and shoes, pose not physical threat to the business or its employees and yet you think it's 'fair' for them to be denied simply because they are Gay.

Does that mean petty repression is fair?

So only the few bakers that refuse to serve gays are able to make the best cakes? How do you know they are settling for less? By your opinion of religious people, I surprised to learn you think they even have the skills to make good cakes.

The impact on gay customers is less than the impact of forcing people to act against their will in this case, in a non-essential service. The use of government to force these people to comply is far worse than having to spend a few more minutes finding another baker, and any hurt feewings. Considering you don't seem to give a rats ass about the bakers feelings, it only comes down to who you like better, and that isn't how government is supposed to work.

Gays have to face the fact, that until the major religions are gone from the face of the earth, their lifestyle is seen as sinful, they will never gain the acceptance of these people, and using government to either force acceptance or social banishment is counter productive, petty, and just plain wrong.

The bakers who refuse service to Gays may be the only baker in town. They may be the best baker in town. And for you to comment on what you think are my thoughts about Christians is uncalled for. I have a very high opinion of Christians as I am one myself. I do, however, have a very low opinion of ignorant homophobes adopting a patina of Christianity to shield them from legal action after their bigotry harms innocent customers.

Why did you intentionally misspell 'feelings' when referring to homosexuals yet correctly spell it when referring to bigots?

Now, surely there will be those clad in ecclesiastical robes preaching about the supposed sinfulness of a homosexual lifestyle. That's all well and good in a church. But that vitriol has no place in public commerce. Suppose that same "preacher": told his congregation that Mexicans are inferior human specimens. Should those acolytes of hatred then extend that twisted philosophy to their businesses? Is that considered fair?

We were admonished bty the Lord to 'judge not lest ye be judged' and yet, these alleged Christians are using an obscure passage in a letter from Paul to a congregation in Rome to continue their petty repressions.

So the Jewish baker should be fined for not baking a Hitler cake.

Got it.

Stop hiding behind the jew thing

Stop hiding

 

[hadit]

I say the Christian baker complies with the law, goes to the event, and displays Bible verses about God's love, forgiveness, and definition of marriage all over the table cloths, napkins, a banner, etc. Chances are very good they won't be coerced into doing it again. I mean, the whole point of asking them in the first place is to either trick them into saying something that the haters can scream about or to hold them up to ridicule, so be proud in your faith.

 

[danielpalos]

Only religious authorities should be taken seriously regarding religion.

 

[danielpalos]

I say the Christian baker complies with the law, goes to the event, and displays Bible verses about God's love, forgiveness, and definition of marriage all over the table cloths, napkins, a banner, etc. Chances are very good they won't be coerced into doing it again. I mean, the whole point of asking them in the first place is to either trick them into saying something that the haters can scream about or to hold them up to ridicule, so be proud in your faith.

Dude is not getting paid to shill for his Cause; but to provide excellent customer service at an event in a public venue.

 

[hadit]

I say the Christian baker complies with the law, goes to the event, and displays Bible verses about God's love, forgiveness, and definition of marriage all over the table cloths, napkins, a banner, etc. Chances are very good they won't be coerced into doing it again. I mean, the whole point of asking them in the first place is to either trick them into saying something that the haters can scream about or to hold them up to ridicule, so be proud in your faith.

Dude is not getting paid to shill for his Cause; but to provide excellent customer service at an event in a public venue.

Of course he is. He is also, however, being coerced to participate in something he finds repugnant, and since there is no law against poor customer service, when faced with a situation in which the sole purpose of one's involvement is to make a political point, why not make your own point?

 

[martybegan]

I say the Christian baker complies with the law, goes to the event, and displays Bible verses about God's love, forgiveness, and definition of marriage all over the table cloths, napkins, a banner, etc. Chances are very good they won't be coerced into doing it again. I mean, the whole point of asking them in the first place is to either trick them into saying something that the haters can scream about or to hold them up to ridicule, so be proud in your faith.

Dude is not getting paid to shill for his Cause; but to provide excellent customer service at an event in a public venue.

Of course he is. He is also, however, being coerced to participate in something he finds repugnant, and since there is no law against poor customer service, when faced with a situation in which the sole purpose of one's involvement is to make a political point, why not make your own point?

Because then you become liable via civil action for not providing what you were contracted to provide.

 

[danielpalos]

He is either practicing the Art of Commerce or the Art of Religion. It really is that Simple.

Only the right claims to object to capitalism for the sake of the socialism of Religion--but, prefer the convenience of doing it on a for-profit basis, with lucre.

 

[hadit]

I say the Christian baker complies with the law, goes to the event, and displays Bible verses about God's love, forgiveness, and definition of marriage all over the table cloths, napkins, a banner, etc. Chances are very good they won't be coerced into doing it again. I mean, the whole point of asking them in the first place is to either trick them into saying something that the haters can scream about or to hold them up to ridicule, so be proud in your faith.

Dude is not getting paid to shill for his Cause; but to provide excellent customer service at an event in a public venue.

Of course he is. He is also, however, being coerced to participate in something he finds repugnant, and since there is no law against poor customer service, when faced with a situation in which the sole purpose of one's involvement is to make a political point, why not make your own point?

Because then you become liable via civil action for not providing what you were contracted to provide.

Absolutely not. You're contracted to provide a wedding cake and/or to cater the event, and you do exactly that. The cake and/or food is delicious, but anything NOT specified in the contract is up to you. In fact, if, during contract negotiations, you make it clear you intend doing just that, the customer then has the choice of NOT coercing you into it or allowing you to do it your way. There is no law against that.

 

[Pop23]

He is either practicing the Art of Commerce or the Art of Religion. It really is that Simple.

Only the right claims to object to capitalism for the sake of the socialism of Religion--but, prefer the convenience of doing it on a for-profit basis, with lucre.

So you believe a Jewish baker should be forced to bake a Praise Hitler cake.

Kinda reminds me of other forced labor the Jews were forced to do.

How sweet.

 

[martybegan]

I say the Christian baker complies with the law, goes to the event, and displays Bible verses about God's love, forgiveness, and definition of marriage all over the table cloths, napkins, a banner, etc. Chances are very good they won't be coerced into doing it again. I mean, the whole point of asking them in the first place is to either trick them into saying something that the haters can scream about or to hold them up to ridicule, so be proud in your faith.

Dude is not getting paid to shill for his Cause; but to provide excellent customer service at an event in a public venue.

Of course he is. He is also, however, being coerced to participate in something he finds repugnant, and since there is no law against poor customer service, when faced with a situation in which the sole purpose of one's involvement is to make a political point, why not make your own point?

Because then you become liable via civil action for not providing what you were contracted to provide.

Absolutely not. You're contracted to provide a wedding cake and/or to cater the event, and you do exactly that. The cake and/or food is delicious, but anything NOT specified in the contract is up to you. In fact, if, during contract negotiations, you make it clear you intend doing just that, the customer then has the choice of NOT coercing you into it or allowing you to do it your way. There is no law against that.

If you don't provide the contracted service, the customer can ask for their money back, if you refuse, they can sue. If you try to play legal games with them, they probably will still sue for discrimination.

The simplest solution is not to force them to do it in the first place, but that requires progressives to be bigger people than they are capable of.

 

[Syriusly]

Maybe it is not high enough

That confirms you are a jerk.

Realist

If you own a business and are informed that blatant discrimination bears a $150k fine and you think your personal hatreds are more important....then you made a choice to pay the fine

In this situation you shouldn't have to make the choice to begin with.

A choice of "We don't serve n*ggers here"?

I thought we settled that 50 years ago

Blacks don't make the choice to be black.

Bruce Jenner proves that gays can.

LOL....what is really funny about that is that Bruce Jenner is not 'choosing to be gay"

 

[Syriusly]

He is either practicing the Art of Commerce or the Art of Religion. It really is that Simple.

Only the right claims to object to capitalism for the sake of the socialism of Religion--but, prefer the convenience of doing it on a for-profit basis, with lucre.

So you believe a Jewish baker should be forced to bake a Praise Hitler cake.

Kinda reminds me of other forced labor the Jews were forced to do.

How sweet.

A Jewish baker can't be forced to bake a "Praise Hitler" cake because there is no law requiring it.

A Jewish baker can be required to bake a cake for a German, even if he blames Germans for the Holocaust, and he can be required to bake a cake for a Christian even if he believes that Christians are apostates.

 

[Syriusly]

Hey Melissa, as of yesterday, you'll be cutting two checks, one for 75K and another for 60K. Hope it was worth it to you.

As for "defending" yourself, just bake the stupid cake. Doing what you already do for a living is hardly too much to ask.

In other words, bend over and take it up the ass. That's the kind of freedom loving attitude we've come to expect from the likes of you.

They had the freedom to pick their damn job, so, do it.

Who put you or the queers in charge of deciding what their job is?

They picked thier job, dumbass.

The job they picked didn't include baking wedding cakes for queers.

The business they run is required to follow business laws.

They can't ignore zoning laws, or health laws, and they can't ignore laws that they cannot refuse to serve customers because of their race, religion or sexual orientation.

 

[Syriusly]

They had the freedom to pick their damn job, so, do it.

Who put you or the queers in charge of deciding what their job is?

They picked thier job, dumbass.

Again, you don't get to decide what the responsibilities of their jobs are, dumbass.

Yes, we do. Capitalism is regulated. Time to grow up now pee boy.

You're thinking of fascism. Capitalism isn't regulated.

So we have no Capitalism anywhere in the world- only Fascism?

What a fascinating point of view.

Still upset that business's don't get to dump their pollution in rivers and don't get to hire 5 year old's to handle things that their little fingers are better for eh?>

 

[Seawytch]

That confirms you are a jerk.

Realist

If you own a business and are informed that blatant discrimination bears a $150k fine and you think your personal hatreds are more important....then you made a choice to pay the fine

In this situation you shouldn't have to make the choice to begin with.

A choice of "We don't serve n*ggers here"?

I thought we settled that 50 years ago

Blacks don't make the choice to be black.

Bruce Jenner proves that gays can.

LOL....what is really funny about that is that Bruce Jenner is not 'choosing to be gay"

When he transitions and still dates women will he be?

 

[Nosmo King]

The issue is a vendor claiming customers are not worthy of dignity due to who those customers might be.

So, cake is the measure of dignity?

If you're that stupid, than you're not worthy of dignity.

A customer is stripped of dignity when a vendor says she is not worthy of service due to her legal lifestyle.

I suggest the strip-ee grow a freaking spine.

So basically its all about acceptance, right?

news flash, it isn't right to use the government to force people to accept other people.

Not about acceptance with a capital "A" but tolerance. Why should someone be so intolerant that commerce and dignity are sacrificed?

 

[Nosmo King]

I say the Christian baker complies with the law, goes to the event, and displays Bible verses about God's love, forgiveness, and definition of marriage all over the table cloths, napkins, a banner, etc. Chances are very good they won't be coerced into doing it again. I mean, the whole point of asking them in the first place is to either trick them into saying something that the haters can scream about or to hold them up to ridicule, so be proud in your faith.

That exceeds the contract of the baker to provide a wedding cake. you realize, of course that the wedding reception is a private party thrown by the happy couple, not the baker or any other vendor.

If the baker wants to go all Revival Tent, do it on their own dime. Don't impose on a private function.