Zone1 Separation of Church and State?

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Pro Tip: If you want to know the history of the bill of rights only applying to the federal government, then research the history of the bill of rights. That's the only way to learn history.

I think you should take your own advice, and that is from a retired history and government teacher.

 

[ding]

Now post the rest! You left out a great deal of information of how the courts changed the interpretation of the applicability of the BoR to the states. You are relying on only part of the history.

Actually I didn't. I addressed the establishment clause was originally intended to only apply to the federal government and then in 1947 SCOTUS applied to the states.

 

[ding]

I think you should take your own advice, and that is from a retired history and government teacher.

That you didn't know SCOTUS applied the establishment clause to the states in 1947 doesn't say much about your knowledge of history or government.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

After incorporation, yes. But that in and of itself violates the constitution for how amendments are written and amended.

The 14th Amendment stated that states could not violate the due process rights of citizens. It was designed that way so that states could not promote laws which would reintroduce slavery at the state level by violating the rights of freed slaves in the state legislation. Fact. end of discussion.

 

[ding]

The 14th Amendment stated that states could not violate the due process rights of citizens. It was designed that way so that states could not promote laws which would reintroduce slavery at the state level by violating the rights of freed slaves in the state legislation. Fact. end of discussion.

When did SCOTUS rule the establishment clause applied to the states? What was the case?

Everson v. Board of Education, 1947

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Actually I didn't. I addressed the establishment clause was originally intended to only apply to the federal government and then in 1947 SCOTUS applied to the states.

What you can't seem to get through your thick head is that it applies now and has since the 14th Amendment was passed and ratified, despite court decisions that failed to enforce it by letting the states getting away with due process violations.

 

[ding]

What you can't seem to get through your thick head is that it applies now and has since the 14th Amendment was passed and ratified, despite court decisions that failed to enforce it by letting the states getting away with due process violations.

Untrue. It only applied when SCOTUS ruled it applied and that was in... Everson v. Board of Education, 1947

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

When did SCOTUS rule the establishment clause applied to the states? What was the case?

Everson v. Board of Education, 1947

So, what do you think that ruling did? It only applied to the 1st Amendment, not all Amendments. The ruling was that there was no violation of the Establishment Clause by the state providing transportation to students attending religious schools.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

That's an idiotic way of looking at it.

The Bill of Rights - as originally written and ratified - applied to the Federal government. That's it. It makes no mention of what states could or would do. It left state matters up to the states. That's how the founding fathers intended for it to be.

OK, here is where I agree with you. 100%. But some of the reasoning you are giving is flat out wrong.

 

[ding]

What you can't seem to get through your thick head is that it applies now and has since the 14th Amendment was passed and ratified, despite court decisions that failed to enforce it by letting the states getting away with due process violations.

When was the 14th amendment ratified? All but 2 state established religions ended before the 14th was ratified. And those two continued to exist beyond the 14th (1868) with one existing seven years beyond the ratification of the 14th and the other existing nine years after the 14th was ratified.

 

[ding]

So, what do you think that ruling did? It only applied to the 1st Amendment, not all Amendments. The ruling was that there was no violation of the Establishment Clause by the state providing transportation to students attending religious schools.

Everson v. Board of Education, 1947 only applied to the establishment clause.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Then as a Christian, don't do God's will.

I am not clear why you disagree that doing God's will in one's own life, including one's personal civic duty such as voting is the stance you choose. I don't know why you are taking the stance that all people of faith should not to do the will of God in their own lives, including in any civic responsibilities such as voting or attending Town Hall Meetings to learn the position of candidates and/or to voice opinions on current issues.

How do assume to know God's will? Who told you what to believe? does God instruct your personally or are you assuming so from your religious instruction?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

When was the 14th amendment ratified? All but 2 state established religions ended before the 14th was ratified. And those two continued to exist beyond the 14th (1868) with one existing seven years beyond the ratification of the 14th and the other existing nine years after the 14th was ratified.

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You still are missing the point. If they had not given up their state religions, the Constitution's BoR being applied to all states ended it and prevented it from being reestablished. Do you realize that Maryland was settled as a haven for Catholics and incorporated the church in almost every aspect of their government? That was very much like other states and their definitive religious groups.

 

[BreezeWood]

-- simply want authority to deny the Church or any other religious group to be seen, heard, or have any voice at all.

again, what is a church - in response to your self serving assertion the gov't and church are not equally distinguishable.

 

[ding]

You still are missing the point. If they had not given up their state religions, the Constitution's BoR being applied to all states ended it and prevented it from being reestablished. Do you realize that Maryland was settled as a haven for Catholics and incorporated the church in almost every aspect of their government? That was very much like other states and their definitive religious groups.

Not until SCOTUS ruled it that way because at least two established state religions continued to exist (7 years and 9 years) after the 14th was ratified by the states.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Everson v. Board of Education, 1947 only applied to the establishment clause.

So where does that mean the entire Bill of Rights was applied to states. That was already established with the 14th Amendment. The ruling was not that New Jersey violated the Establishment clause, because the Establishment Clause DID NOT apply in this case. New Jersey did not establish a religion by providing transportation. The state was free to continue to provide transportation to students of all religions to their schools. I took a graduate course in educational law and wound up getting fired because I knew it so well and calling out my principal for violating students' rights.

 

[BreezeWood]

I think I will rely on the words of the founding fathers.

those who wrote the constitution are vindicated by the civil war amendments that clarify national sovereignty over states rights - arguments purported by reactionaries and who lost their argument at the wars conclusion - bing.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Not until SCOTUS ruled it that way because at least two established state religions continued to exist (7 years and 9 years) after the 14th was ratified by the states.

And your point is? The courts are often slow to enforce states to comply with federal laws. It probably because no one bothered to take the states to federal court. Brown v Board of Education passed in 1954, yet mandatory segregation existed in public school for about 2 more decades. My own wife attended all-white schools in Alabama in the 1960s.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Our founding fathers believed that our rights are conditional. That we are granted inalienable rights for no other reason than we are God's creatures but that those rights require us to meet our obligation and duty to God.

Where does it say that in the Constitution?

 

[ding]

So where does that mean the entire Bill of Rights was applied to states. That was already established with the 14th Amendment. The ruling was not that New Jersey violated the Establishment clause, because the Establishment Clause DID NOT apply in this case. New Jersey did not establish a religion by providing transportation. The state was free to continue to provide transportation to students of all religions to their schools. I took a graduate course in educational law and wound up getting fired because I knew it so well and calling out my principal for violating students' rights.

What case applied the 2nd Amendment to the states?
What case applied the Free Exercise Clause to the states?

Why don't you tell me the name of the case you think applied the entire Bill of Rights to the states?