Seperate but not equal

[Coyote]

So, how is this not de-facto apartheid?

Separation not only on buses, but also on streets of Hebron
6 Mar 2013

...The separation principle is an official policy of the Israeli military separating Jews and Moslems in the city of Hebron. The policy is implemented primarily through severe restrictions on Palestinian travel and movement in downtown Hebron, where most Israeli settlement outposts are located. Some of the main roads in the area are completely off limits to Palestinians, and many roads bar any and all Palestinian vehicles. Israel’s strict restrictions have made the lives of Palestinians in downtown Hebron intolerable, forcing many to leave their homes and jobs.

One of the roads prohibited to Palestinian vehicles runs through the neighborhood of a-Salaimeh and leads to the Tomb of the Patriarchs. The road is about 70 meters long and has a checkpoint at either end: the Bakery Checkpoint at the northern end of the road and the Bench Checkpoint at its southern end. Until recently, Israeli security forces permitted Palestinian pedestrians and cyclists on the street. In order to transport supplies through the street, Palestinians were forced to use a horse-drawn wagon or a hand-cart. Settlers and Israeli civilians are permitted to walk and drive cars on the street.

On 23 September 2012 Israeli security forces laid out a chain-link fence, dividing the road lengthwise. On one side of the fence is a paved road and on the other, a narrow pedestrian passageway. Since the fence was erected, Israeli security forces have not allowed Palestinians to walk on the road. Instead they direct Palestinians to the narrow passageway, which is unpaved, rough and ends in a small staircase. The passage is completely impassible by wheelchair and is very difficult to navigate with a baby carriage, pushcart or bicycle...

There's a down side, and an upside - but the real question is, can anything who's incorporates into it's purpose a seperation of races - be a good thing? I don't think so. Especially since commutes for Palestinian workers are substantially longer, and there is also an effort now to prevent them from using the bus' that would shorten their commute.

Israel introduces 'Palestinian only' bus lines, following complaints from Jewish settlers

...Transportation Ministry officials are not officially calling them segregated buses, but rather bus lines intended to relieve the distress of the Palestinian workers.

The Transportation Ministry’s pilot program was conceived in sin: Settlers complained that Palestinians were riding the bus from Tel Aviv back to the West Bank with them. Some used security grounds to justify their complaints; others were simply motivated by racism. The settlers' mayors screamed to high heaven, and the Transportation Ministry responded.


At the same time, the activity on the ground Monday morning highlighted the upside to the reform: Thousands of workers who had been exploited by "pirate" vehicle drivers finally got good-quality, well-organized service from the state.

...At least on its first day, the reform's more problematic side wasn't evident. The point, as has been mentioned, is to prevent Palestinians from returning home through Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Samer, from a small West Bank village, goes to the Eyal crossing point every day, returns on Bus 286 from the Tel Aviv Central Bus Station to Ariel and travels on Route 5, the major highway to the settlements. He gets off the bus at the Gitti Avissar interchange, and walks to his village. From time to time, police officers would take Palestinians off the buses and send them on their way on foot.

Now there is an even greater effort to remove them from the buses – supposedly because they are not allowed to travel on Route 5 without undergoing an inspection. But the real reason is that this way they will return directly to the Eyal crossing point. Samer, for his part, said he would still try to return via Route 5 this evening, since it significantly shortens his travel time.

Entire articles - pro & con, at the links.

 

[Lipush]

Nothing about stone throwing which has lead to this separation...

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Hebron is under Israeli military control, being in the West Bank. Arabs in Israel proper have much more rights, being Israeli citizens. Many posters here don't make that distinction.

 

[irosie91]

COYOTE-----always remember S E P A R A T E
sorry---but there was a time when -----I was still working---
the my impression of kids "SEPARATING" from active duty
military service who wrote "SEPERATION" on their forms---
struck me as not too bright. Fret not----lousy spelling is a
very MASCULINE TRAIT

the separation in Hebron is a security issue. Hebron is
a site that has a tradition of slit throat pogroms. Jews
are very CHARACTERISTICALLY and NORMATIVELY
sensitive about Hebron for several reason. It is considered
a "HOLY CITY" (one of four) for jews ---since it was
purchased by Abraham----used as a kind of "holy" burial
site------the first "capital" of "israel" in that the ark of
the covenant was stored there until it got migrated
to Jerusalem -----AND it is the site of an horrific
pogrom in 1929. The pogrom was a NORMATIVE
one in that it targeted a completely unarmed
religious community----something like the more
recent pogrom in a yeshiva in Jerusalem or the
pogrom upon the Jews of Aden 1947. Mustlims
being the characteristically and normatively POETIC
people that they are-----would find a repeat
performance of the 1929 pogrom VERY POETIC .
The knowlege of that POETIC character was a main
factor in galvanizing Dr Boruch Goldstein to immoderate
action

stay tuned for lots of hysteria sorrounding any
attempt to remove Hebron from Israeli control.

 

[Jos]

Was there stone throwing on the buses?

 

[irosie91]

Was there stone throwing on the buses?

Buses have been attacked by BOMB ON ASS JIHADISTA SLUTS

 

[Coyote]

Was there stone throwing on the buses?

Good question. Any answers?

 

[irosie91]

Was there stone throwing on the buses?

Good question. Any answers?

bombs on buses

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Was there stone throwing on the buses?

Good question. Any answers?

In general, a visit to the holy sites in the West Bank, by Jews, is not considered a safe option. Jews must travel in bullet-proof busses, from Jerusalem, to visit Abraham's Tomb in Hebron or Rachel's Tomb in Bethlehem.

 

[Lipush]

yes, bombs are a little more UNCOMFORTABLE than stones....

 

[Coyote]

So why two seperate standards then? You can't even call it "seperate but equal".

 

[Roudy]

So, how is this not de-facto apartheid?

Separation not only on buses, but also on streets of Hebron
6 Mar 2013

...The separation principle is an official policy of the Israeli military separating Jews and Moslems in the city of Hebron. The policy is implemented primarily through severe restrictions on Palestinian travel and movement in downtown Hebron, where most Israeli settlement outposts are located. Some of the main roads in the area are completely off limits to Palestinians, and many roads bar any and all Palestinian vehicles. Israel’s strict restrictions have made the lives of Palestinians in downtown Hebron intolerable, forcing many to leave their homes and jobs.

One of the roads prohibited to Palestinian vehicles runs through the neighborhood of a-Salaimeh and leads to the Tomb of the Patriarchs. The road is about 70 meters long and has a checkpoint at either end: the Bakery Checkpoint at the northern end of the road and the Bench Checkpoint at its southern end. Until recently, Israeli security forces permitted Palestinian pedestrians and cyclists on the street. In order to transport supplies through the street, Palestinians were forced to use a horse-drawn wagon or a hand-cart. Settlers and Israeli civilians are permitted to walk and drive cars on the street.

On 23 September 2012 Israeli security forces laid out a chain-link fence, dividing the road lengthwise. On one side of the fence is a paved road and on the other, a narrow pedestrian passageway. Since the fence was erected, Israeli security forces have not allowed Palestinians to walk on the road. Instead they direct Palestinians to the narrow passageway, which is unpaved, rough and ends in a small staircase. The passage is completely impassible by wheelchair and is very difficult to navigate with a baby carriage, pushcart or bicycle...

There's a down side, and an upside - but the real question is, can anything who's incorporates into it's purpose a seperation of races - be a good thing? I don't think so. Especially since commutes for Palestinian workers are substantially longer, and there is also an effort now to prevent them from using the bus' that would shorten their commute.

Israel introduces 'Palestinian only' bus lines, following complaints from Jewish settlers

...Transportation Ministry officials are not officially calling them segregated buses, but rather bus lines intended to relieve the distress of the Palestinian workers.

The Transportation Ministry’s pilot program was conceived in sin: Settlers complained that Palestinians were riding the bus from Tel Aviv back to the West Bank with them. Some used security grounds to justify their complaints; others were simply motivated by racism. The settlers' mayors screamed to high heaven, and the Transportation Ministry responded.


At the same time, the activity on the ground Monday morning highlighted the upside to the reform: Thousands of workers who had been exploited by "pirate" vehicle drivers finally got good-quality, well-organized service from the state.

...At least on its first day, the reform's more problematic side wasn't evident. The point, as has been mentioned, is to prevent Palestinians from returning home through Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Samer, from a small West Bank village, goes to the Eyal crossing point every day, returns on Bus 286 from the Tel Aviv Central Bus Station to Ariel and travels on Route 5, the major highway to the settlements. He gets off the bus at the Gitti Avissar interchange, and walks to his village. From time to time, police officers would take Palestinians off the buses and send them on their way on foot.

Now there is an even greater effort to remove them from the buses – supposedly because they are not allowed to travel on Route 5 without undergoing an inspection. But the real reason is that this way they will return directly to the Eyal crossing point. Samer, for his part, said he would still try to return via Route 5 this evening, since it significantly shortens his travel time.

Entire articles - pro & con, at the links.

How does Hebron, a city known to have a Jewish roots and presence for thousands of years, considered the second-holiest city in Judaism after Jerusalem, suddenly become "Arab", and then to top it off, they claim "apartheid" just because tens of thousands of Muslim Arabs invaded in the 1930's?

 

[Jos]

Was there stone throwing on the buses?

Buses have been attacked by BOMB ON ASS JIHADISTA SLUTS

Buses have also been attacked by Israeli Soldier Opens Fire inside a Bus
did they ban soldiers?

 

[Coyote]

Was there stone throwing on the buses?

Buses have been attacked by BOMB ON ASS JIHADISTA SLUTS

Buses have also been attacked by Israeli Soldier Opens Fire inside a Bus
did they ban soldiers?

Of course not. Same reason they don't jail, abuse, and isolate settler children who throw stones at Palestinians.

 

[Roudy]

So why two seperate standards then? You can't even call it "seperate but equal".

It is conquered territory which was captured as a result of Arab aggression, which happens to also be ancient Hebrew lands. The Israelis should just annex the entire West Bank, call it by it's original name prior to 1948, Judeah and Samaria (of ancient Israel), and then accord the Arabs the same rights as those living in Israel proper.

 

[Roudy]

Buses have been attacked by BOMB ON ASS JIHADISTA SLUTS

Buses have also been attacked by Israeli Soldier Opens Fire inside a Bus
did they ban soldiers?

Of course not. Same reason they don't jail, abuse, and isolate settler children who throw stones at Palestinians.

and you know that how......?

 

[Coyote]

Buses have also been attacked by Israeli Soldier Opens Fire inside a Bus
did they ban soldiers?

Of course not. Same reason they don't jail, abuse, and isolate settler children who throw stones at Palestinians.

and you know that how......?

Articles in B'tselem that point out the inequity in treatment (I've posted them on the stone throwing thread I believe).

 

[Coyote]

So, how is this not de-facto apartheid?

Separation not only on buses, but also on streets of Hebron
6 Mar 2013

...The separation principle is an official policy of the Israeli military separating Jews and Moslems in the city of Hebron. The policy is implemented primarily through severe restrictions on Palestinian travel and movement in downtown Hebron, where most Israeli settlement outposts are located. Some of the main roads in the area are completely off limits to Palestinians, and many roads bar any and all Palestinian vehicles. Israel’s strict restrictions have made the lives of Palestinians in downtown Hebron intolerable, forcing many to leave their homes and jobs.

One of the roads prohibited to Palestinian vehicles runs through the neighborhood of a-Salaimeh and leads to the Tomb of the Patriarchs. The road is about 70 meters long and has a checkpoint at either end: the Bakery Checkpoint at the northern end of the road and the Bench Checkpoint at its southern end. Until recently, Israeli security forces permitted Palestinian pedestrians and cyclists on the street. In order to transport supplies through the street, Palestinians were forced to use a horse-drawn wagon or a hand-cart. Settlers and Israeli civilians are permitted to walk and drive cars on the street.

On 23 September 2012 Israeli security forces laid out a chain-link fence, dividing the road lengthwise. On one side of the fence is a paved road and on the other, a narrow pedestrian passageway. Since the fence was erected, Israeli security forces have not allowed Palestinians to walk on the road. Instead they direct Palestinians to the narrow passageway, which is unpaved, rough and ends in a small staircase. The passage is completely impassible by wheelchair and is very difficult to navigate with a baby carriage, pushcart or bicycle...

There's a down side, and an upside - but the real question is, can anything who's incorporates into it's purpose a seperation of races - be a good thing? I don't think so. Especially since commutes for Palestinian workers are substantially longer, and there is also an effort now to prevent them from using the bus' that would shorten their commute.

Israel introduces 'Palestinian only' bus lines, following complaints from Jewish settlers

...Transportation Ministry officials are not officially calling them segregated buses, but rather bus lines intended to relieve the distress of the Palestinian workers.

The Transportation Ministry’s pilot program was conceived in sin: Settlers complained that Palestinians were riding the bus from Tel Aviv back to the West Bank with them. Some used security grounds to justify their complaints; others were simply motivated by racism. The settlers' mayors screamed to high heaven, and the Transportation Ministry responded.


At the same time, the activity on the ground Monday morning highlighted the upside to the reform: Thousands of workers who had been exploited by "pirate" vehicle drivers finally got good-quality, well-organized service from the state.

...At least on its first day, the reform's more problematic side wasn't evident. The point, as has been mentioned, is to prevent Palestinians from returning home through Jewish settlements in the West Bank.

Samer, from a small West Bank village, goes to the Eyal crossing point every day, returns on Bus 286 from the Tel Aviv Central Bus Station to Ariel and travels on Route 5, the major highway to the settlements. He gets off the bus at the Gitti Avissar interchange, and walks to his village. From time to time, police officers would take Palestinians off the buses and send them on their way on foot.

Now there is an even greater effort to remove them from the buses – supposedly because they are not allowed to travel on Route 5 without undergoing an inspection. But the real reason is that this way they will return directly to the Eyal crossing point. Samer, for his part, said he would still try to return via Route 5 this evening, since it significantly shortens his travel time.

Entire articles - pro & con, at the links.

How does Hebron, a city known to have a Jewish roots and presence for thousands of years, considered the second-holiest city in Judaism after Jerusalem, suddenly become "Arab", and then to top it off, they claim "apartheid" just because tens of thousands of Muslim Arabs invaded in the 1930's?

No, it's because of two different standards of rights, access, etc.

 

[Jos]

So why two seperate standards then? You can't even call it "seperate but equal".

It is conquered territory which was captured as a result of Arab aggression, which happens to also be ancient Hebrew lands. The Israelis should just annex the entire West Bank, call it by it's original name prior to 1948, Judeah (sic) and Samaria (of ancient Israel), and then accord the Arabs the same rights as those living in Israel proper.

After the attempted conquests of Napoleon and up to the attempted conquests of Hitler, the disposition of territory acquired under the principle of conquest had to, according to international law, be conducted according to the existing laws of war. This meant that there had to be military occupation followed by a peace settlement. If there was a territorial cession, then there had to be a formal peace treaty.

Right of conquest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Roudy]

So, how is this not de-facto apartheid?

Separation not only on buses, but also on streets of Hebron
6 Mar 2013




There's a down side, and an upside - but the real question is, can anything who's incorporates into it's purpose a seperation of races - be a good thing? I don't think so. Especially since commutes for Palestinian workers are substantially longer, and there is also an effort now to prevent them from using the bus' that would shorten their commute.

Israel introduces 'Palestinian only' bus lines, following complaints from Jewish settlers



Entire articles - pro & con, at the links.

How does Hebron, a city known to have a Jewish roots and presence for thousands of years, considered the second-holiest city in Judaism after Jerusalem, suddenly become "Arab", and then to top it off, they claim "apartheid" just because tens of thousands of Muslim Arabs invaded in the 1930's?

No, it's because of two different standards of rights, access, etc.

You are missing the point. Arabs attacked the Jews of Hebron in the 1930's, committing genocide and ethnic cleansing upon a community that had been living there for thousands of years. During this same time in the 1930's, tens of thousands of Arabs invaded Hebron, and changed it's demographics. In other words, the land did not belong to Arabs, nor was it considered Arab lands. All Israel is doing is protecting a Jewish community from further persecution and terrorism (which there have been many against them), and preserving what little is left from the ancient Jewish identity of the city.