Seriously.....Can Anybody Really Imagine Donald Trump As President?

[kaz]

The world changes. You John Birchers would have kept blacksmiths because they need the job, we'd as Toro pointed out still be an agriculture society because farmers needed the job. We'd be the poorest country on the planet instead of the richest.

Nothing I've said supports that

You repeatedly argue that we can't move offshore because workers can't compete. Yeah, the world changes. We need to embrace change, not fight it.

What you didn't address was my point. Let's stop the government artificially incenting companies to move off shore with our insane tax and regulatory environment.

Those policies being created by the government you are willing to empower to remove our right to trade freely. Oh, but you explained. They want to help. You're assigning the criminal the ability to fix crime. Yeah, that's well thought through.

What if we start by doing things we can on our end without help from anyone. Trump is silent on that. He doesn't even bring it up as a problem

 

[Correll]

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

I'm no more unhappy about manufacturing jobs than I'm unhappy about the loss of jobs in agriculture. In 1900, half the jobs in America were on the farm. Today, it's about 3%. And we produce 10x more agriculture produce than we did back then. I don't blame Trump's supporters. They are doing what any disenfranchised group does - they are looking for the government to interfere in the economy and engineer a redistribution of wealth from guys like me, the owners of capital, to them. I believe in capitalism, which has created the greatest amount of wealth in history. Ever. Full-stop. And capitalism is based on creative destruction. What is being creatively destructed is the removal of jobs from the manufacturing industry. That's going to happen anyways, like it did in agriculture. We used to have high tariffs on ag products but jobs were lost anyways due to automation. Trump is lying to you. Millions of manufacturing jobs aren't coming back here. Sorry. If high tariffs force production back to the US, the work will be done by robots and we will all be poorer because there won't be more jobs and everything will cost more.

I do agree with Trump on intellectual piracy and something should be done about it, but that was the Faustian Bargain American industry made with China to access their growing market, something their shareholders demanded.

Trade deficits are neither good nor bad. The countries with trade deficits aren't demanding we rip up trade agreements.

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

Manufacturing jobs in Germany are half that in the economy compared to 40 years ago.

Percent of Employment in Manufacturing in Germany (DISCONTINUED)

Germany also is under the same trade agreements with the China as a co-signer of the WTO.

German workers also work less than American workers.

None of that addresses my point that Germany has TWICE the rate of manufacturing jobs that America has.

Except that Germany workers being less productive than American workers makes my point STRONGER.

How is it that GERMANY manages to have such a relatively healthy manufacturing employment when their workers work less and they face all the same factors that we do?

imo, it is Trade Policy.

Let's not strive to be like Socialist European countries, let's make them strive to be like us. You know, like they used to, until the fear and hate crowd took over.

We need more freedom and to embrace the future. Closing our doors isn't how we got here and it isn't going to fix shit and your trust in politicians to take away freedom in exchange for a promise they will give back more in the future is inexplicable and entirely unsupported by empirical data

"Fear and Hate" are meaningless buzz words.


Have you ever been to the Rust Belt? Especially outside the Big Cities?

 

[kaz]

You and Trump know nothing about economics. Free trade is better even if it's one way, we aren't losing jobs because of it. You're ignoring the benefit to consumers and the cost competitiveness of our businesses. And we are far from having one way free trade. I don't even really know what you're talking about. I've worked endlessly in Europe and working with India and China and it was all for American companies.

You John Birchers just want to live in shacks again. But hey, we'll all have the same size shack, then life will be fair. It'll suck, but you won't have to look out at anyone else having a bigger shack and be jealous.

Well, except the politicians, they'll live in houses. But that's OK, they're the ones who made life fair. They deserve to have more than we do

You are confused. Free trade works both ways, you see, that's what the term means. Trade is a two way street. If it's an uneven arrangement it isn't exactly free trade. How many more jobs do we need to lose before you get it?

Your incessant whining about your boy not getting the nod is pathetic, you need to just find a way to deal with it and move on. I honestly can't figure out what you think you are accomplishing. The party isn't going to install Ted just to make you happy.

Here's a tissue, sweet heart. Sorry I made you cry. And I've addressed one and two way free trade repeatedly. Read my posts and get back to me when you're able to address what I said instead of making up stuff I didn't

 

[kaz]

I'm no more unhappy about manufacturing jobs than I'm unhappy about the loss of jobs in agriculture. In 1900, half the jobs in America were on the farm. Today, it's about 3%. And we produce 10x more agriculture produce than we did back then. I don't blame Trump's supporters. They are doing what any disenfranchised group does - they are looking for the government to interfere in the economy and engineer a redistribution of wealth from guys like me, the owners of capital, to them. I believe in capitalism, which has created the greatest amount of wealth in history. Ever. Full-stop. And capitalism is based on creative destruction. What is being creatively destructed is the removal of jobs from the manufacturing industry. That's going to happen anyways, like it did in agriculture. We used to have high tariffs on ag products but jobs were lost anyways due to automation. Trump is lying to you. Millions of manufacturing jobs aren't coming back here. Sorry. If high tariffs force production back to the US, the work will be done by robots and we will all be poorer because there won't be more jobs and everything will cost more.

I do agree with Trump on intellectual piracy and something should be done about it, but that was the Faustian Bargain American industry made with China to access their growing market, something their shareholders demanded.

Trade deficits are neither good nor bad. The countries with trade deficits aren't demanding we rip up trade agreements.

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

What is driving jobs and companies overseas is government. Our corporate tax rate, our endless rules and regulations. Obamacare.

If you haven't been able to fix that in the last 40 years, you aren't going to be fixing that any time soon.

And ignoring the Wage Factor does not make it go away.

Government is causing it. Now government's coming and offering to fix it, and you're in! Thanks government!

Trade Policy is and has always been part of the Government bailiwick.

Ronald Reagan: Government is the problem, not the solution

I love Reagan as much as the next guy, who is not a fool. But I don't think he would be happy with the results of his Trade Policies. The Idea was that US manufactures would be forced to be competitive, and that the "creative destruction" would lead to new growth.

That has NOT happened.

Well, according to you, it's both because I know you're not a liberal, Correll. You were right the first time. Don't trust them.

Again, if government wants to fight for free trade without restricting our rights in the process, I'm all for that. And you know better than to take the sucker deal that they are going to restrict our rights, but only to expand them!!!!

The rest of the WORLD has built itself around unfair trade with US. There is no way they are going to walk away from that Money Fountain without a fight.

If we demand "Free Trade" they might very well buckle and agree.

And their primary purpose will be to talk smack, hide barriers to our trade and stall till the Trump Presidency is over, or weakened by mid term elections.


You need to take some of the skepticism you have about American politicians and focus it on the politicians of our Trading Partners.

You and Trump know nothing about economics. Free trade is better even if it's one way, we aren't losing jobs because of it. You're ignoring the benefit to consumers and the cost competitiveness of our businesses. And we are far from having one way free trade. I don't even really know what you're talking about. I've worked endlessly in Europe and working with India and China and it was all for American companies.

You John Birchers just want to live in shacks again. But hey, we'll all have the same size shack, then life will be fair. It'll suck, but you won't have to look out at anyone else having a bigger shack and be jealous.

Well, except the politicians, they'll live in houses. But that's OK, they're the ones who made life fair. They deserve to have more than we do

The same economists who told us that, back in the 80s, are the same ones that told US that US manufacturers would be forced to become competitive and that workers would retrain and get even better paying jobs in high tech industries.


THE PREDICTED RESULTS HAVE NOT HAPPENED.

WTF? Reagan kicked off a 25 year economic run. Learn history

 

[kaz]

I'm no more unhappy about manufacturing jobs than I'm unhappy about the loss of jobs in agriculture. In 1900, half the jobs in America were on the farm. Today, it's about 3%. And we produce 10x more agriculture produce than we did back then. I don't blame Trump's supporters. They are doing what any disenfranchised group does - they are looking for the government to interfere in the economy and engineer a redistribution of wealth from guys like me, the owners of capital, to them. I believe in capitalism, which has created the greatest amount of wealth in history. Ever. Full-stop. And capitalism is based on creative destruction. What is being creatively destructed is the removal of jobs from the manufacturing industry. That's going to happen anyways, like it did in agriculture. We used to have high tariffs on ag products but jobs were lost anyways due to automation. Trump is lying to you. Millions of manufacturing jobs aren't coming back here. Sorry. If high tariffs force production back to the US, the work will be done by robots and we will all be poorer because there won't be more jobs and everything will cost more.

I do agree with Trump on intellectual piracy and something should be done about it, but that was the Faustian Bargain American industry made with China to access their growing market, something their shareholders demanded.

Trade deficits are neither good nor bad. The countries with trade deficits aren't demanding we rip up trade agreements.

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

Manufacturing jobs in Germany are half that in the economy compared to 40 years ago.

Percent of Employment in Manufacturing in Germany (DISCONTINUED)

Germany also is under the same trade agreements with the China as a co-signer of the WTO.

German workers also work less than American workers.

None of that addresses my point that Germany has TWICE the rate of manufacturing jobs that America has.

Except that Germany workers being less productive than American workers makes my point STRONGER.

How is it that GERMANY manages to have such a relatively healthy manufacturing employment when their workers work less and they face all the same factors that we do?

imo, it is Trade Policy.

Let's not strive to be like Socialist European countries, let's make them strive to be like us. You know, like they used to, until the fear and hate crowd took over.

We need more freedom and to embrace the future. Closing our doors isn't how we got here and it isn't going to fix shit and your trust in politicians to take away freedom in exchange for a promise they will give back more in the future is inexplicable and entirely unsupported by empirical data

"Fear and Hate" are meaningless buzz words.


Have you ever been to the Rust Belt? Especially outside the Big Cities?

"kaz" is short for my home town, Kalamazoo, Michigan. I'm also a University of Michigan MBA. And this is not a good example for you. The rust belt came about because as the auto industry matured, the workers started voting in more and more leftist government who fucked the US car industry virtually out of existence by using government guns to drive up wages and drive down doing any actual work. Seriously, you think the auto industry was brought down by trade?

So what happened? US manufacturers went offshore to escape the People's Republic of Michigan. Foreign manufacturers came in because they weren't saddled with UAW contracts, and didn't go to Michigan, Ohio or Indiana to keep it that way.

Again, government was the problem, but you believe government will fix that. Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it

 

[Correll]

The world changes. You John Birchers would have kept blacksmiths because they need the job, we'd as Toro pointed out still be an agriculture society because farmers needed the job. We'd be the poorest country on the planet instead of the richest.

Nothing I've said supports that

You repeatedly argue that we can't move offshore because workers can't compete.

No, I've said we should NOT move off shore because it is bad for American workers.

Yeah, the world changes. We need to embrace change, not fight it.

Meaningless buzz words. YOu show me a change for the better and I'll embrace it so fast it'll look like a tackle.

What you didn't address was my point. Let's stop the government artificially incenting companies to move off shore with our insane tax and regulatory environment.

I did address that. I pointed out that you've have 40 years to do that and could not. YOu aren't going to do it anytime soon.

Those policies being created by the government you are willing to empower to remove our right to trade freely. Oh, but you explained. They want to help. You're assigning the criminal the ability to fix crime. Yeah, that's well thought through.

No, my explanation was that you have no Right to trade with someone who is fucking your fellow citizens. Trade policy is about serving the interests of America and Americans, not just you.

What if we start by doing things we can on our end without help from anyone. Trump is silent on that. He doesn't even bring it up as a problem

We've been playing that game for 40 years. If it hasn't made a difference in 40 years, it is not going to.

 

[Correll]

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

What is driving jobs and companies overseas is government. Our corporate tax rate, our endless rules and regulations. Obamacare.

If you haven't been able to fix that in the last 40 years, you aren't going to be fixing that any time soon.

And ignoring the Wage Factor does not make it go away.

Government is causing it. Now government's coming and offering to fix it, and you're in! Thanks government!

Trade Policy is and has always been part of the Government bailiwick.

Ronald Reagan: Government is the problem, not the solution

I love Reagan as much as the next guy, who is not a fool. But I don't think he would be happy with the results of his Trade Policies. The Idea was that US manufactures would be forced to be competitive, and that the "creative destruction" would lead to new growth.

That has NOT happened.

Well, according to you, it's both because I know you're not a liberal, Correll. You were right the first time. Don't trust them.

Again, if government wants to fight for free trade without restricting our rights in the process, I'm all for that. And you know better than to take the sucker deal that they are going to restrict our rights, but only to expand them!!!!

The rest of the WORLD has built itself around unfair trade with US. There is no way they are going to walk away from that Money Fountain without a fight.

If we demand "Free Trade" they might very well buckle and agree.

And their primary purpose will be to talk smack, hide barriers to our trade and stall till the Trump Presidency is over, or weakened by mid term elections.


You need to take some of the skepticism you have about American politicians and focus it on the politicians of our Trading Partners.

You and Trump know nothing about economics. Free trade is better even if it's one way, we aren't losing jobs because of it. You're ignoring the benefit to consumers and the cost competitiveness of our businesses. And we are far from having one way free trade. I don't even really know what you're talking about. I've worked endlessly in Europe and working with India and China and it was all for American companies.

You John Birchers just want to live in shacks again. But hey, we'll all have the same size shack, then life will be fair. It'll suck, but you won't have to look out at anyone else having a bigger shack and be jealous.

Well, except the politicians, they'll live in houses. But that's OK, they're the ones who made life fair. They deserve to have more than we do

The same economists who told us that, back in the 80s, are the same ones that told US that US manufacturers would be forced to become competitive and that workers would retrain and get even better paying jobs in high tech industries.


THE PREDICTED RESULTS HAVE NOT HAPPENED.

WTF? Reagan kicked off a 25 year economic run. Learn history

A Rising Tide was supposed to Lift All Boats.

You ever walk down the streets of small town Rust Belt America and you will know that that did not happen.


That is the history of the last 40 years.

 

[Correll]

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

Manufacturing jobs in Germany are half that in the economy compared to 40 years ago.

Percent of Employment in Manufacturing in Germany (DISCONTINUED)

Germany also is under the same trade agreements with the China as a co-signer of the WTO.

German workers also work less than American workers.

None of that addresses my point that Germany has TWICE the rate of manufacturing jobs that America has.

Except that Germany workers being less productive than American workers makes my point STRONGER.

How is it that GERMANY manages to have such a relatively healthy manufacturing employment when their workers work less and they face all the same factors that we do?

imo, it is Trade Policy.

Let's not strive to be like Socialist European countries, let's make them strive to be like us. You know, like they used to, until the fear and hate crowd took over.

We need more freedom and to embrace the future. Closing our doors isn't how we got here and it isn't going to fix shit and your trust in politicians to take away freedom in exchange for a promise they will give back more in the future is inexplicable and entirely unsupported by empirical data

"Fear and Hate" are meaningless buzz words.


Have you ever been to the Rust Belt? Especially outside the Big Cities?

"kaz" is short for my home town, Kalamazoo, Michigan. I'm also a University of Michigan MBA. And this is not a good example for you. The rust belt came about because as the auto industry matured, the workers started voting in more and more leftist government who fucked the US car industry virtually out of existence by using government guns to drive up wages and drive down doing any actual work. Seriously, you think the auto industry was brought down by trade?

So what happened? US manufacturers went offshore to escape the People's Republic of Michigan. Foreign manufacturers came in because they weren't saddled with UAW contracts, and didn't go to Michigan, Ohio or Indiana to keep it that way.

Again, government was the problem, but you believe government will fix that. Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it

That was 40 years ago. Competition was supposed to improve that.

It has not.

 

[kaz]

The world changes. You John Birchers would have kept blacksmiths because they need the job, we'd as Toro pointed out still be an agriculture society because farmers needed the job. We'd be the poorest country on the planet instead of the richest.

Nothing I've said supports that

You repeatedly argue that we can't move offshore because workers can't compete.

No, I've said we should NOT move off shore because it is bad for American workers.

Yeah, the world changes. We need to embrace change, not fight it.

Meaningless buzz words. YOu show me a change for the better and I'll embrace it so fast it'll look like a tackle.

What you didn't address was my point. Let's stop the government artificially incenting companies to move off shore with our insane tax and regulatory environment.

I did address that. I pointed out that you've have 40 years to do that and could not. YOu aren't going to do it anytime soon.

Those policies being created by the government you are willing to empower to remove our right to trade freely. Oh, but you explained. They want to help. You're assigning the criminal the ability to fix crime. Yeah, that's well thought through.

No, my explanation was that you have no Right to trade with someone who is fucking your fellow citizens. Trade policy is about serving the interests of America and Americans, not just you.

What if we start by doing things we can on our end without help from anyone. Trump is silent on that. He doesn't even bring it up as a problem

We've been playing that game for 40 years. If it hasn't made a difference in 40 years, it is not going to.

OK, so you agree with me. Trump is anti-capitalist, anti-free trade. That's why you like him. So why are you arguing with me if you agree with me?

And wow, you're sounding more and more like a leftist. I am America, baby. Don't tell me America can't let me be free because it's not in America's interest. That makes no sense. Capitalism is just a term for economic freedom. You have no right to limit my freedom because you're terrified of change.

And freedom isn't an "ism" and believing in freedom isn't believing in an ideology. Ideologies are how you limit freedom. Believing in my own choice is the basic principle our country was founded on

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Can anyone imagine W, O, Hillary or Trump?

Think of the damage to America W and O would do, like running up the debt from $5 trillion to $19 trillion, allowing Israel to murder thousands of Americans, and then sending US troops to the ME to do Israel's dirty work...

..

It was $10 TRILLION when he took over n00b

Would you believe $12 trillion? When George W. Bush took over he assumed a surplus with a set path to a completely paid up debt. Instead of simply leaving things alone he cut tax rates for the rich not once but twice, borrowed the money from foreign banks to cover his spending and doubled the national debt from $5.7 trillion to $11.9 trillion:

..............................................Total U S Debt................................................

Figures Easily Verified....Taken From the Bureau of the Debt

US: $18,775,084,981,440 - Debt as of December 2015?

09/30/2014 $17,824,071,380,733.82

09/30/2013 $16,738,183,526,697.32

09/30/2012 $16,066,241,407,385.89

09/30/2011 $14,790,340,328,557.15

09/30/2010 $13,561,623,030,891.79

09/30/2009 $11,909,829,003,511.75(80% Of All Debt Across 232 Years Borrowed By Reagan And Bushes)

09/30/2008 $10,024,724,896,912.49(Times Square Debt Clock Modified To Accommodate Tens of Trillions)

09/30/2007 $9,007,653,372,262.48

09/30/2006 $8,506,973,899,215.23

09/30/2005 $7,932,709,661,723.50

09/30/2004 $7,379,052,696,330.32

09/30/2003 $6,783,231,062,743.62(Second Bush Tax Cuts Enacted Using Reconciliation)

09/30/2002 $6,228,235,965,597.16

09/30/2001 $5,807,463,412,200.06(First Bush Tax Cuts Enacted Using Reconciliation)

09/30/2000 $5,674,178,209,886.86(Administration And Congress Arguing About How To Use Surplus)

09/30/1999 $5,656,270,901,615.43(First Surplus Generated...On Track To Pay Off Debt By 2012)

09/30/1998 $5,526,193,008,897.62

09/30/1997 $5,413,146,011,397.34

09/30/1996 $5,224,810,939,135.73

09/29/1995 $4,973,982,900,709.39

09/30/1994 $4,692,749,910,013.32 (Bill Clinton Raised Taxes On The Rich early 1993)

09/30/1993 $4,411,488,883,139.38 ( Debt Quadrupled By Reagan/Bush41)

09/30/1992 $4,064,620,655,521.66

09/30/1991 $3,665,303,351,697.03

09/28/1990 $3,233,313,451,777.25

09/29/1989 $2,857,430,960,187.32

09/30/1988 $2,602,337,712,041.16

09/30/1987 $2,350,276,890,953.00

09/30/1986 $2,125,302,616,658.42

09/30/1985 $1,823,103,000,000.00

09/30/1984 $1,572,266,000,000.00

09/30/1983 $1,377,210,000,000.00

09/30/1982 $1,142,034,000,000.00(Total Debt Passes $1 Trillion)(Reagan Slashed Tax Rates To Pre Depression Levels)

09/30/1981 $997,855,000,000.00

Oh boy, more of the Clinton surplus nonsense.

 

[kaz]

What is driving jobs and companies overseas is government. Our corporate tax rate, our endless rules and regulations. Obamacare.

If you haven't been able to fix that in the last 40 years, you aren't going to be fixing that any time soon.

And ignoring the Wage Factor does not make it go away.

Government is causing it. Now government's coming and offering to fix it, and you're in! Thanks government!

Trade Policy is and has always been part of the Government bailiwick.

Ronald Reagan: Government is the problem, not the solution

I love Reagan as much as the next guy, who is not a fool. But I don't think he would be happy with the results of his Trade Policies. The Idea was that US manufactures would be forced to be competitive, and that the "creative destruction" would lead to new growth.

That has NOT happened.

Well, according to you, it's both because I know you're not a liberal, Correll. You were right the first time. Don't trust them.

Again, if government wants to fight for free trade without restricting our rights in the process, I'm all for that. And you know better than to take the sucker deal that they are going to restrict our rights, but only to expand them!!!!

The rest of the WORLD has built itself around unfair trade with US. There is no way they are going to walk away from that Money Fountain without a fight.

If we demand "Free Trade" they might very well buckle and agree.

And their primary purpose will be to talk smack, hide barriers to our trade and stall till the Trump Presidency is over, or weakened by mid term elections.


You need to take some of the skepticism you have about American politicians and focus it on the politicians of our Trading Partners.

You and Trump know nothing about economics. Free trade is better even if it's one way, we aren't losing jobs because of it. You're ignoring the benefit to consumers and the cost competitiveness of our businesses. And we are far from having one way free trade. I don't even really know what you're talking about. I've worked endlessly in Europe and working with India and China and it was all for American companies.

You John Birchers just want to live in shacks again. But hey, we'll all have the same size shack, then life will be fair. It'll suck, but you won't have to look out at anyone else having a bigger shack and be jealous.

Well, except the politicians, they'll live in houses. But that's OK, they're the ones who made life fair. They deserve to have more than we do

The same economists who told us that, back in the 80s, are the same ones that told US that US manufacturers would be forced to become competitive and that workers would retrain and get even better paying jobs in high tech industries.


THE PREDICTED RESULTS HAVE NOT HAPPENED.

WTF? Reagan kicked off a 25 year economic run. Learn history

A Rising Tide was supposed to Lift All Boats.

You ever walk down the streets of small town Rust Belt America and you will know that that did not happen.


That is the history of the last 40 years.

You're delving deeper and deeper into leftist ideology. The equally rising boats are opportunity, not handouts, comrade. Government taps you on the shoulder and gives you cash. Opportunity is what you earn. I was born in the rust belt and ended up doing great! Why? I left.

And again I addressed this. GOVERNMENT created the rust belt. And you are advocating giving government the power to further restrict our freedom to fix it. Yeah, that's going to happen ...

 

[kaz]

Manufacturing jobs in Germany are half that in the economy compared to 40 years ago.

Percent of Employment in Manufacturing in Germany (DISCONTINUED)

Germany also is under the same trade agreements with the China as a co-signer of the WTO.

German workers also work less than American workers.

None of that addresses my point that Germany has TWICE the rate of manufacturing jobs that America has.

Except that Germany workers being less productive than American workers makes my point STRONGER.

How is it that GERMANY manages to have such a relatively healthy manufacturing employment when their workers work less and they face all the same factors that we do?

imo, it is Trade Policy.

Let's not strive to be like Socialist European countries, let's make them strive to be like us. You know, like they used to, until the fear and hate crowd took over.

We need more freedom and to embrace the future. Closing our doors isn't how we got here and it isn't going to fix shit and your trust in politicians to take away freedom in exchange for a promise they will give back more in the future is inexplicable and entirely unsupported by empirical data

"Fear and Hate" are meaningless buzz words.


Have you ever been to the Rust Belt? Especially outside the Big Cities?

"kaz" is short for my home town, Kalamazoo, Michigan. I'm also a University of Michigan MBA. And this is not a good example for you. The rust belt came about because as the auto industry matured, the workers started voting in more and more leftist government who fucked the US car industry virtually out of existence by using government guns to drive up wages and drive down doing any actual work. Seriously, you think the auto industry was brought down by trade?

So what happened? US manufacturers went offshore to escape the People's Republic of Michigan. Foreign manufacturers came in because they weren't saddled with UAW contracts, and didn't go to Michigan, Ohio or Indiana to keep it that way.

Again, government was the problem, but you believe government will fix that. Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it

That was 40 years ago. Competition was supposed to improve that.

It has not.

You think government fucking american car companies with gun enforced higher wages for less work is "competition?"



Am I thinking of the wrong poster? I thought you were a conservative, not a socialist

 

[Redfish]

How awful it would be if we had a president who owed no favors to special interest groups.
How awful it would be if we had a president who believed in the constitution
How awful it would be if we had a president who ran the government like a business
How awful it would be if we had a president who negotiated trade deals favorable to this country
How awful it would be if we had a president who respected law enforcement personnel
How awful it would be if we had a president who cared about our military and vets
How awful it would be if we had a president who wanted to reduce the national debt
How awful it would be if we had a president who wanted jobs for all americans

You libs are so out of touch with reality. Liberalism is truly a mental disease, there is no other explanation.

 

[jasonnfree]

How awful it would be if we had a president who owed no favors to special interest groups.
How awful it would be if we had a president who believed in the constitution
How awful it would be if we had a president who ran the government like a business
How awful it would be if we had a president who negotiated trade deals favorable to this country
How awful it would be if we had a president who respected law enforcement personnel
How awful it would be if we had a president who cared about our military and vets
How awful it would be if we had a president who wanted to reduce the national debt
How awful it would be if we had a president who wanted jobs for all americans

You libs are so out of touch with reality. Liberalism is truly a mental disease, there is no other explanation.

And of course, how awful if we had a president who tried to control our borders like every other country controls their borders.

 

[Correll]

The world changes. You John Birchers would have kept blacksmiths because they need the job, we'd as Toro pointed out still be an agriculture society because farmers needed the job. We'd be the poorest country on the planet instead of the richest.

Nothing I've said supports that

You repeatedly argue that we can't move offshore because workers can't compete.

No, I've said we should NOT move off shore because it is bad for American workers.

Yeah, the world changes. We need to embrace change, not fight it.

Meaningless buzz words. YOu show me a change for the better and I'll embrace it so fast it'll look like a tackle.

What you didn't address was my point. Let's stop the government artificially incenting companies to move off shore with our insane tax and regulatory environment.

I did address that. I pointed out that you've have 40 years to do that and could not. YOu aren't going to do it anytime soon.

Those policies being created by the government you are willing to empower to remove our right to trade freely. Oh, but you explained. They want to help. You're assigning the criminal the ability to fix crime. Yeah, that's well thought through.

No, my explanation was that you have no Right to trade with someone who is fucking your fellow citizens. Trade policy is about serving the interests of America and Americans, not just you.

What if we start by doing things we can on our end without help from anyone. Trump is silent on that. He doesn't even bring it up as a problem

We've been playing that game for 40 years. If it hasn't made a difference in 40 years, it is not going to.

OK, so you agree with me. Trump is anti-capitalist, anti-free trade. That's why you like him. So why are you arguing with me if you agree with me?

And wow, you're sounding more and more like a leftist. I am America, baby. Don't tell me America can't let me be free because it's not in America's interest. That makes no sense. Capitalism is just a term for economic freedom. You have no right to limit my freedom because you're terrified of change.

And freedom isn't an "ism" and believing in freedom isn't believing in an ideology. Ideologies are how you limit freedom. Believing in my own choice is the basic principle our country was founded on

I've made the point that you do not have a Right to trade with someone who is fucking over the rest of the country.

American Trade policy should be crafted to serve the interest of the nation as a whole and as many individual citizens as possible.

 

[kaz]

The world changes. You John Birchers would have kept blacksmiths because they need the job, we'd as Toro pointed out still be an agriculture society because farmers needed the job. We'd be the poorest country on the planet instead of the richest.

Nothing I've said supports that

You repeatedly argue that we can't move offshore because workers can't compete.

No, I've said we should NOT move off shore because it is bad for American workers.

Yeah, the world changes. We need to embrace change, not fight it.

Meaningless buzz words. YOu show me a change for the better and I'll embrace it so fast it'll look like a tackle.

What you didn't address was my point. Let's stop the government artificially incenting companies to move off shore with our insane tax and regulatory environment.

I did address that. I pointed out that you've have 40 years to do that and could not. YOu aren't going to do it anytime soon.

Those policies being created by the government you are willing to empower to remove our right to trade freely. Oh, but you explained. They want to help. You're assigning the criminal the ability to fix crime. Yeah, that's well thought through.

No, my explanation was that you have no Right to trade with someone who is fucking your fellow citizens. Trade policy is about serving the interests of America and Americans, not just you.

What if we start by doing things we can on our end without help from anyone. Trump is silent on that. He doesn't even bring it up as a problem

We've been playing that game for 40 years. If it hasn't made a difference in 40 years, it is not going to.

OK, so you agree with me. Trump is anti-capitalist, anti-free trade. That's why you like him. So why are you arguing with me if you agree with me?

And wow, you're sounding more and more like a leftist. I am America, baby. Don't tell me America can't let me be free because it's not in America's interest. That makes no sense. Capitalism is just a term for economic freedom. You have no right to limit my freedom because you're terrified of change.

And freedom isn't an "ism" and believing in freedom isn't believing in an ideology. Ideologies are how you limit freedom. Believing in my own choice is the basic principle our country was founded on

I've made the point that you do not have a Right to trade with someone who is fucking over the rest of the country.

American Trade policy should be crafted to serve the interest of the nation as a whole and as many individual citizens as possible.

Yes, comrade, you did. I know, I know, the good of the many over the good of the individual. Yet somehow the good always ends up being the good of the politicians making the decisions backed by the power of guns.

Here's the thing. You're wrong from both a freedom and economics perspective. The socialist literature you are reading doesn't match the reality of what socialist governments actually accomplish. All the west has driven growth through capitalism then stagnated through socialism. The rest of the world has just been despotic socialist.

I know it's shocking. Sit down, this isn't going to be easy. But here's the reality. Politicians ... are lying to you. A stunner, I know. But it is what it is. Stop believing them

 

[Correll]

If you haven't been able to fix that in the last 40 years, you aren't going to be fixing that any time soon.

And ignoring the Wage Factor does not make it go away.

Trade Policy is and has always been part of the Government bailiwick.



I love Reagan as much as the next guy, who is not a fool. But I don't think he would be happy with the results of his Trade Policies. The Idea was that US manufactures would be forced to be competitive, and that the "creative destruction" would lead to new growth.

That has NOT happened.

The rest of the WORLD has built itself around unfair trade with US. There is no way they are going to walk away from that Money Fountain without a fight.

If we demand "Free Trade" they might very well buckle and agree.

And their primary purpose will be to talk smack, hide barriers to our trade and stall till the Trump Presidency is over, or weakened by mid term elections.


You need to take some of the skepticism you have about American politicians and focus it on the politicians of our Trading Partners.

You and Trump know nothing about economics. Free trade is better even if it's one way, we aren't losing jobs because of it. You're ignoring the benefit to consumers and the cost competitiveness of our businesses. And we are far from having one way free trade. I don't even really know what you're talking about. I've worked endlessly in Europe and working with India and China and it was all for American companies.

You John Birchers just want to live in shacks again. But hey, we'll all have the same size shack, then life will be fair. It'll suck, but you won't have to look out at anyone else having a bigger shack and be jealous.

Well, except the politicians, they'll live in houses. But that's OK, they're the ones who made life fair. They deserve to have more than we do

The same economists who told us that, back in the 80s, are the same ones that told US that US manufacturers would be forced to become competitive and that workers would retrain and get even better paying jobs in high tech industries.


THE PREDICTED RESULTS HAVE NOT HAPPENED.

WTF? Reagan kicked off a 25 year economic run. Learn history

A Rising Tide was supposed to Lift All Boats.

You ever walk down the streets of small town Rust Belt America and you will know that that did not happen.


That is the history of the last 40 years.

You're delving deeper and deeper into leftist ideology. The equally rising boats are opportunity, not handouts, comrade. Government taps you on the shoulder and gives you cash. Opportunity is what you earn. I was born in the rust belt and ended up doing great! Why? I left.

And again I addressed this. GOVERNMENT created the rust belt. And you are advocating giving government the power to further restrict our freedom to fix it. Yeah, that's going to happen ...

The Rising Tide was supposed to be increasing jobs and wages and lifestyles and socio-economic status.


"Opportunity" is a myth if Trade Policy removes all or even most of the good jobs from an area or a nation.

You managed to get a piece of a shrinking pie. Good for you.

 

[Correll]

Nothing I've said supports that

You repeatedly argue that we can't move offshore because workers can't compete.

No, I've said we should NOT move off shore because it is bad for American workers.

Yeah, the world changes. We need to embrace change, not fight it.

Meaningless buzz words. YOu show me a change for the better and I'll embrace it so fast it'll look like a tackle.

What you didn't address was my point. Let's stop the government artificially incenting companies to move off shore with our insane tax and regulatory environment.

I did address that. I pointed out that you've have 40 years to do that and could not. YOu aren't going to do it anytime soon.

Those policies being created by the government you are willing to empower to remove our right to trade freely. Oh, but you explained. They want to help. You're assigning the criminal the ability to fix crime. Yeah, that's well thought through.

No, my explanation was that you have no Right to trade with someone who is fucking your fellow citizens. Trade policy is about serving the interests of America and Americans, not just you.

What if we start by doing things we can on our end without help from anyone. Trump is silent on that. He doesn't even bring it up as a problem

We've been playing that game for 40 years. If it hasn't made a difference in 40 years, it is not going to.

OK, so you agree with me. Trump is anti-capitalist, anti-free trade. That's why you like him. So why are you arguing with me if you agree with me?

And wow, you're sounding more and more like a leftist. I am America, baby. Don't tell me America can't let me be free because it's not in America's interest. That makes no sense. Capitalism is just a term for economic freedom. You have no right to limit my freedom because you're terrified of change.

And freedom isn't an "ism" and believing in freedom isn't believing in an ideology. Ideologies are how you limit freedom. Believing in my own choice is the basic principle our country was founded on

I've made the point that you do not have a Right to trade with someone who is fucking over the rest of the country.

American Trade policy should be crafted to serve the interest of the nation as a whole and as many individual citizens as possible.

Yes, comrade, you did. I know, I know, the good of the many over the good of the individual. Yet somehow the good always ends up being the good of the politicians making the decisions backed by the power of guns.

Here's the thing. You're wrong from both a freedom and economics perspective. The socialist literature you are reading doesn't match the reality of what socialist governments actually accomplish. All the west has driven growth through capitalism then stagnated through socialism. The rest of the world has just been despotic socialist.

I know it's shocking. Sit down, this isn't going to be easy. But here's the reality. Politicians ... are lying to you. A stunner, I know. But it is what it is. Stop believing them

Your blind skepticism is just as bad as blind faith.

Good Trade Policy that serves the interest of the Nation as a whole and as many Americans as possible is NOT socialism.


any more than BAD Trade Policy is Freedom.

 

[kaz]

You and Trump know nothing about economics. Free trade is better even if it's one way, we aren't losing jobs because of it. You're ignoring the benefit to consumers and the cost competitiveness of our businesses. And we are far from having one way free trade. I don't even really know what you're talking about. I've worked endlessly in Europe and working with India and China and it was all for American companies.

You John Birchers just want to live in shacks again. But hey, we'll all have the same size shack, then life will be fair. It'll suck, but you won't have to look out at anyone else having a bigger shack and be jealous.

Well, except the politicians, they'll live in houses. But that's OK, they're the ones who made life fair. They deserve to have more than we do

The same economists who told us that, back in the 80s, are the same ones that told US that US manufacturers would be forced to become competitive and that workers would retrain and get even better paying jobs in high tech industries.


THE PREDICTED RESULTS HAVE NOT HAPPENED.

WTF? Reagan kicked off a 25 year economic run. Learn history

A Rising Tide was supposed to Lift All Boats.

You ever walk down the streets of small town Rust Belt America and you will know that that did not happen.


That is the history of the last 40 years.

You're delving deeper and deeper into leftist ideology. The equally rising boats are opportunity, not handouts, comrade. Government taps you on the shoulder and gives you cash. Opportunity is what you earn. I was born in the rust belt and ended up doing great! Why? I left.

And again I addressed this. GOVERNMENT created the rust belt. And you are advocating giving government the power to further restrict our freedom to fix it. Yeah, that's going to happen ...

The Rising Tide was supposed to be increasing jobs and wages and lifestyles and socio-economic status.


"Opportunity" is a myth if Trade Policy removes all or even most of the good jobs from an area or a nation.

You managed to get a piece of a shrinking pie. Good for you.

Government taxes, tax structure and regulations are killing jobs. Repeating a lie that free trade harms the economy doesn't make it so. I'll believe my education and experience over you.

And again, you keep making sound like we are disagreeing on the fundamental point. I said Trump is anti-capitalist, anti-free trade. You are saying that is why you like him, not that I'm wrong

 

[kaz]

You repeatedly argue that we can't move offshore because workers can't compete.

No, I've said we should NOT move off shore because it is bad for American workers.

Yeah, the world changes. We need to embrace change, not fight it.

Meaningless buzz words. YOu show me a change for the better and I'll embrace it so fast it'll look like a tackle.

What you didn't address was my point. Let's stop the government artificially incenting companies to move off shore with our insane tax and regulatory environment.

I did address that. I pointed out that you've have 40 years to do that and could not. YOu aren't going to do it anytime soon.

Those policies being created by the government you are willing to empower to remove our right to trade freely. Oh, but you explained. They want to help. You're assigning the criminal the ability to fix crime. Yeah, that's well thought through.

No, my explanation was that you have no Right to trade with someone who is fucking your fellow citizens. Trade policy is about serving the interests of America and Americans, not just you.

What if we start by doing things we can on our end without help from anyone. Trump is silent on that. He doesn't even bring it up as a problem

We've been playing that game for 40 years. If it hasn't made a difference in 40 years, it is not going to.

OK, so you agree with me. Trump is anti-capitalist, anti-free trade. That's why you like him. So why are you arguing with me if you agree with me?

And wow, you're sounding more and more like a leftist. I am America, baby. Don't tell me America can't let me be free because it's not in America's interest. That makes no sense. Capitalism is just a term for economic freedom. You have no right to limit my freedom because you're terrified of change.

And freedom isn't an "ism" and believing in freedom isn't believing in an ideology. Ideologies are how you limit freedom. Believing in my own choice is the basic principle our country was founded on

I've made the point that you do not have a Right to trade with someone who is fucking over the rest of the country.

American Trade policy should be crafted to serve the interest of the nation as a whole and as many individual citizens as possible.

Yes, comrade, you did. I know, I know, the good of the many over the good of the individual. Yet somehow the good always ends up being the good of the politicians making the decisions backed by the power of guns.

Here's the thing. You're wrong from both a freedom and economics perspective. The socialist literature you are reading doesn't match the reality of what socialist governments actually accomplish. All the west has driven growth through capitalism then stagnated through socialism. The rest of the world has just been despotic socialist.

I know it's shocking. Sit down, this isn't going to be easy. But here's the reality. Politicians ... are lying to you. A stunner, I know. But it is what it is. Stop believing them

Your blind skepticism is just as bad as blind faith.

Good Trade Policy that serves the interest of the Nation as a whole and as many Americans as possible is NOT socialism.


any more than BAD Trade Policy is Freedom.

Yes, believing I can make better choices for myself than government can make for me is "blind." I need to open my eyes that politicians run my life better than I can.

I'm the "blind" one. Yeah ...