Seriously.....Can Anybody Really Imagine Donald Trump As President?

[SmokeALib]

Can anybody really imagine Hillary as president?

After next January 20 you won't have to imagine it.

In your marxist dreams....

 

[Campbell]

Can anybody really imagine Hillary as president?

After next January 20 you won't have to imagine it.

In your marxist dreams....

Just be practicing....it's Madame....that's MADAME president!

 

[Correll]

I did. You're full of shit with your brain dead Reagan good/Trump bad rhetoric. It's really getting old. Cruz didn't win, you need to get over it at some point. You deflected from the point I made because you know the answer, Reagan wouldn't support what's going on now so your quote is misleading.

Reagan was an ardent free trader. Trump is an ardent protectionist. Trump goes beyond free trade and wants to limit capitalists from making economically efficient decisions and for making the rational decision to get away from the malignant American government by relocating manufacturing.

You've given zero in this bad agreements nonsense you keep whining about. You just keep repeating it as if it's true. It's a logical fallacy called begging the question.

You're why Trump does it. Get a bunch of ignorant voters with hysterical fear that OMG, they're taking my job to vote for you by stoking their fear. I do this for a living. I work for multinationals, I have outsourced a lot of jobs. American business doesn't need your help. Stay out of it. Don't "help" us.

Again, Reagan, government is the problem.

Trump/You, government is the solution

You have nothing to do with Reagan, he was ardently pro free trade and he did what American business needs. He left us alone. You're just a Democrat in another form

I don't agree that Reagan was for bad trade deals. You would need to support that.

Reagan signed the original free trade agreement with Canada.

Since in the Trumpian world, the only definition of a bad deal is the discredited 19th century mercantilist belief that it's bad if you have a trade deficit, Reagan signed a bad deal since the US had and still has a trade deficit with Canada.

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

Ah, so politicians care about us and want to help us, and all we have to do is cede more power to restrict our rights to trade to do that. Gosh, you didn't mention they just want more power because of their concern for me. Now I'm OK with it, take my rights and I'll just trust them to make them ... better ... Correll said so!

You're a good guy, but you're so naive, is it still wet behind your ears?

I've made no claim of Trump being motivated purely the pure goodness of his pure heart.

The self interest in his choice of polices is pretty obvious to me. That was a strawman.

"Right to Trade"?


Trade Policy has ALWAYS been a government function, at least for the past couple of centuries.

If China is fucking America and most Americans with THEIR Trade Policy, you have no "Right" to expect the rest of the nation to bend over and take it.

Which they are.

 

[kaz]

Reagan was an ardent free trader. Trump is an ardent protectionist. Trump goes beyond free trade and wants to limit capitalists from making economically efficient decisions and for making the rational decision to get away from the malignant American government by relocating manufacturing.

You've given zero in this bad agreements nonsense you keep whining about. You just keep repeating it as if it's true. It's a logical fallacy called begging the question.

You're why Trump does it. Get a bunch of ignorant voters with hysterical fear that OMG, they're taking my job to vote for you by stoking their fear. I do this for a living. I work for multinationals, I have outsourced a lot of jobs. American business doesn't need your help. Stay out of it. Don't "help" us.

Again, Reagan, government is the problem.

Trump/You, government is the solution

You have nothing to do with Reagan, he was ardently pro free trade and he did what American business needs. He left us alone. You're just a Democrat in another form

I don't agree that Reagan was for bad trade deals. You would need to support that.

Reagan signed the original free trade agreement with Canada.

Since in the Trumpian world, the only definition of a bad deal is the discredited 19th century mercantilist belief that it's bad if you have a trade deficit, Reagan signed a bad deal since the US had and still has a trade deficit with Canada.

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

Ah, so politicians care about us and want to help us, and all we have to do is cede more power to restrict our rights to trade to do that. Gosh, you didn't mention they just want more power because of their concern for me. Now I'm OK with it, take my rights and I'll just trust them to make them ... better ... Correll said so!

You're a good guy, but you're so naive, is it still wet behind your ears?

I've made no claim of Trump being motivated purely the pure goodness of his pure heart.

The self interest in his choice of polices is pretty obvious to me. That was a strawman.

"Right to Trade"?


Trade Policy has ALWAYS been a government function, at least for the past couple of centuries.

If China is fucking America and most Americans with THEIR Trade Policy, you have no "Right" to expect the rest of the nation to bend over and take it.

Which they are.

No strawman, you're expecting that if we give government more power to tell us who, when and were we can trade with, they will make it better. Politicians, seriously. There is no history of that at all.

If the government wants to put pressure on other countries by threatening them with things like that we defend them and they'd better open their borders to our companies, then sure, I'm all for that.

But Trump is specifically saying he's going to restrict our ability to trade and even screw American companies who don't play by his rules. Oh, but it's for our own good. Yeah. And I just bought the Brooklyn Bridge too.

The best example of what an anti-capitalist, anti-free trader he is I've heard is that he proposed a $1,500 tax on every air conditioner imported by Carrier if they move operations to Mexico. No, companies can't make rational decisions, they have to make Trump decisions and stay here and get screwed by their own government.

Let's make this the best place to do business so US companies want to stay and foreign companies want to relocate here. Trump is the wrong direction, building economic walls.

The man is no Reagan

 

[Correll]

I did. You're full of shit with your brain dead Reagan good/Trump bad rhetoric. It's really getting old. Cruz didn't win, you need to get over it at some point. You deflected from the point I made because you know the answer, Reagan wouldn't support what's going on now so your quote is misleading.

Reagan was an ardent free trader. Trump is an ardent protectionist. Trump goes beyond free trade and wants to limit capitalists from making economically efficient decisions and for making the rational decision to get away from the malignant American government by relocating manufacturing.

You've given zero in this bad agreements nonsense you keep whining about. You just keep repeating it as if it's true. It's a logical fallacy called begging the question.

You're why Trump does it. Get a bunch of ignorant voters with hysterical fear that OMG, they're taking my job to vote for you by stoking their fear. I do this for a living. I work for multinationals, I have outsourced a lot of jobs. American business doesn't need your help. Stay out of it. Don't "help" us.

Again, Reagan, government is the problem.

Trump/You, government is the solution

You have nothing to do with Reagan, he was ardently pro free trade and he did what American business needs. He left us alone. You're just a Democrat in another form

I don't agree that Reagan was for bad trade deals. You would need to support that.

Reagan signed the original free trade agreement with Canada.

Since in the Trumpian world, the only definition of a bad deal is the discredited 19th century mercantilist belief that it's bad if you have a trade deficit, Reagan signed a bad deal since the US had and still has a trade deficit with Canada.

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

I'm no more unhappy about manufacturing jobs than I'm unhappy about the loss of jobs in agriculture. In 1900, half the jobs in America were on the farm. Today, it's about 3%. And we produce 10x more agriculture produce than we did back then. I don't blame Trump's supporters. They are doing what any disenfranchised group does - they are looking for the government to interfere in the economy and engineer a redistribution of wealth from guys like me, the owners of capital, to them. I believe in capitalism, which has created the greatest amount of wealth in history. Ever. Full-stop. And capitalism is based on creative destruction. What is being creatively destructed is the removal of jobs from the manufacturing industry. That's going to happen anyways, like it did in agriculture. We used to have high tariffs on ag products but jobs were lost anyways due to automation. Trump is lying to you. Millions of manufacturing jobs aren't coming back here. Sorry. If high tariffs force production back to the US, the work will be done by robots and we will all be poorer because there won't be more jobs and everything will cost more.

I do agree with Trump on intellectual piracy and something should be done about it, but that was the Faustian Bargain American industry made with China to access their growing market, something their shareholders demanded.

Trade deficits are neither good nor bad. The countries with trade deficits aren't demanding we rip up trade agreements.

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

 

[Correll]

I just watched his speech and he never said a complete sentence without waving his arms and throwing in self serving comments before he completed it. The guy should really be in an insane asylum!.....And He's Very Ugly!

Wow. Ugly?

Thanks for keeping it high brow.

Ugly applies to more than appearance. This prick is an ugly human being!

Like what Trump implied about Carly Fiorina and Ted Cruz's wife.

It would be awesome to have a President telling us which women were hot and which were bowsers!

Does it bother you when people make fun of Trump's hair?

lol

Yeah, run with that.

Did you see Trump's 77% disapproval rate amongst women?

Sorry, I don't understand you response. YOu were unhappy that Trump implicitly insulted two women's looks, so I asked you if you were unhappy when people insulted Trump's appearance.

And as to his disapproval rating, no one every said that massive smear campaigns don't work.

 

[kaz]

Reagan was an ardent free trader. Trump is an ardent protectionist. Trump goes beyond free trade and wants to limit capitalists from making economically efficient decisions and for making the rational decision to get away from the malignant American government by relocating manufacturing.

You've given zero in this bad agreements nonsense you keep whining about. You just keep repeating it as if it's true. It's a logical fallacy called begging the question.

You're why Trump does it. Get a bunch of ignorant voters with hysterical fear that OMG, they're taking my job to vote for you by stoking their fear. I do this for a living. I work for multinationals, I have outsourced a lot of jobs. American business doesn't need your help. Stay out of it. Don't "help" us.

Again, Reagan, government is the problem.

Trump/You, government is the solution

You have nothing to do with Reagan, he was ardently pro free trade and he did what American business needs. He left us alone. You're just a Democrat in another form

I don't agree that Reagan was for bad trade deals. You would need to support that.

Reagan signed the original free trade agreement with Canada.

Since in the Trumpian world, the only definition of a bad deal is the discredited 19th century mercantilist belief that it's bad if you have a trade deficit, Reagan signed a bad deal since the US had and still has a trade deficit with Canada.

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

I'm no more unhappy about manufacturing jobs than I'm unhappy about the loss of jobs in agriculture. In 1900, half the jobs in America were on the farm. Today, it's about 3%. And we produce 10x more agriculture produce than we did back then. I don't blame Trump's supporters. They are doing what any disenfranchised group does - they are looking for the government to interfere in the economy and engineer a redistribution of wealth from guys like me, the owners of capital, to them. I believe in capitalism, which has created the greatest amount of wealth in history. Ever. Full-stop. And capitalism is based on creative destruction. What is being creatively destructed is the removal of jobs from the manufacturing industry. That's going to happen anyways, like it did in agriculture. We used to have high tariffs on ag products but jobs were lost anyways due to automation. Trump is lying to you. Millions of manufacturing jobs aren't coming back here. Sorry. If high tariffs force production back to the US, the work will be done by robots and we will all be poorer because there won't be more jobs and everything will cost more.

I do agree with Trump on intellectual piracy and something should be done about it, but that was the Faustian Bargain American industry made with China to access their growing market, something their shareholders demanded.

Trade deficits are neither good nor bad. The countries with trade deficits aren't demanding we rip up trade agreements.

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

What is driving jobs and companies overseas is government. Our corporate tax rate, our endless rules and regulations. Obamacare.

Government is causing it. Now government's coming and offering to fix it, and you're in! Thanks government!

Ronald Reagan: Government is the problem, not the solution

Well, according to you, it's both because I know you're not a liberal, Correll. You were right the first time. Don't trust them.

Again, if government wants to fight for free trade without restricting our rights in the process, I'm all for that. And you know better than to take the sucker deal that they are going to restrict our rights, but only to expand them!!!!

 

[Toro]

Reagan was an ardent free trader. Trump is an ardent protectionist. Trump goes beyond free trade and wants to limit capitalists from making economically efficient decisions and for making the rational decision to get away from the malignant American government by relocating manufacturing.

You've given zero in this bad agreements nonsense you keep whining about. You just keep repeating it as if it's true. It's a logical fallacy called begging the question.

You're why Trump does it. Get a bunch of ignorant voters with hysterical fear that OMG, they're taking my job to vote for you by stoking their fear. I do this for a living. I work for multinationals, I have outsourced a lot of jobs. American business doesn't need your help. Stay out of it. Don't "help" us.

Again, Reagan, government is the problem.

Trump/You, government is the solution

You have nothing to do with Reagan, he was ardently pro free trade and he did what American business needs. He left us alone. You're just a Democrat in another form

I don't agree that Reagan was for bad trade deals. You would need to support that.

Reagan signed the original free trade agreement with Canada.

Since in the Trumpian world, the only definition of a bad deal is the discredited 19th century mercantilist belief that it's bad if you have a trade deficit, Reagan signed a bad deal since the US had and still has a trade deficit with Canada.

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

I'm no more unhappy about manufacturing jobs than I'm unhappy about the loss of jobs in agriculture. In 1900, half the jobs in America were on the farm. Today, it's about 3%. And we produce 10x more agriculture produce than we did back then. I don't blame Trump's supporters. They are doing what any disenfranchised group does - they are looking for the government to interfere in the economy and engineer a redistribution of wealth from guys like me, the owners of capital, to them. I believe in capitalism, which has created the greatest amount of wealth in history. Ever. Full-stop. And capitalism is based on creative destruction. What is being creatively destructed is the removal of jobs from the manufacturing industry. That's going to happen anyways, like it did in agriculture. We used to have high tariffs on ag products but jobs were lost anyways due to automation. Trump is lying to you. Millions of manufacturing jobs aren't coming back here. Sorry. If high tariffs force production back to the US, the work will be done by robots and we will all be poorer because there won't be more jobs and everything will cost more.

I do agree with Trump on intellectual piracy and something should be done about it, but that was the Faustian Bargain American industry made with China to access their growing market, something their shareholders demanded.

Trade deficits are neither good nor bad. The countries with trade deficits aren't demanding we rip up trade agreements.

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

Manufacturing jobs in Germany are half that in the economy compared to 40 years ago.

Percent of Employment in Manufacturing in Germany (DISCONTINUED)

Germany also is under the same trade agreements with the China as a co-signer of the WTO.

German workers also work less than American workers.

 

[Flash]

Seriously, can anybody really imagine Crooked Hillary as President given her record of dishonesty, incompetency and corruption?

That is all we need. The Bitch of Benghazi leading this country.

Trump has his flaws but he is a saint compared to Crooked Hillary.

 

[kaz]

I don't agree that Reagan was for bad trade deals. You would need to support that.

Reagan signed the original free trade agreement with Canada.

Since in the Trumpian world, the only definition of a bad deal is the discredited 19th century mercantilist belief that it's bad if you have a trade deficit, Reagan signed a bad deal since the US had and still has a trade deficit with Canada.

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

I'm no more unhappy about manufacturing jobs than I'm unhappy about the loss of jobs in agriculture. In 1900, half the jobs in America were on the farm. Today, it's about 3%. And we produce 10x more agriculture produce than we did back then. I don't blame Trump's supporters. They are doing what any disenfranchised group does - they are looking for the government to interfere in the economy and engineer a redistribution of wealth from guys like me, the owners of capital, to them. I believe in capitalism, which has created the greatest amount of wealth in history. Ever. Full-stop. And capitalism is based on creative destruction. What is being creatively destructed is the removal of jobs from the manufacturing industry. That's going to happen anyways, like it did in agriculture. We used to have high tariffs on ag products but jobs were lost anyways due to automation. Trump is lying to you. Millions of manufacturing jobs aren't coming back here. Sorry. If high tariffs force production back to the US, the work will be done by robots and we will all be poorer because there won't be more jobs and everything will cost more.

I do agree with Trump on intellectual piracy and something should be done about it, but that was the Faustian Bargain American industry made with China to access their growing market, something their shareholders demanded.

Trade deficits are neither good nor bad. The countries with trade deficits aren't demanding we rip up trade agreements.

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

Manufacturing jobs in Germany are half that in the economy compared to 40 years ago.

Percent of Employment in Manufacturing in Germany (DISCONTINUED)

Germany also is under the same trade agreements with the China as a co-signer of the WTO.

German workers also work less than American workers.

Yes, and some manufacturing will move offshore because of wages. That's not all bad as it creates more markets and American allies and it makes American products more price competitive and benefits consumers. And it's the way capitalism works. As you pointed out before, should we have 50% of people working in agriculture like they did a century ago?

What we need to stop is driving companies offshore to escape the American government and it's punitive tax and regulations. And Correll knows better than to trust government that hey, we want to restrict trade, but only to expand free trade!

I've seen those deals from government all my life. Never seen the second part actually happen once they have the first part.

Obama: Obamacare will drive healthcare costs down! We gotta give government control over healthcare, then watch the prices fall!
Tip O'Neill: I'll agree to 3 dollars in future tax cuts for $1 in tax increases now!
W: We dramatically raise Social Security and Medicare taxes, then the system is solvent for our children!
Trump: I'll end free trade, but I'll replace it with better deals!

It's a sucker deal

 

[Correll]

I don't agree that Reagan was for bad trade deals. You would need to support that.

Reagan signed the original free trade agreement with Canada.

Since in the Trumpian world, the only definition of a bad deal is the discredited 19th century mercantilist belief that it's bad if you have a trade deficit, Reagan signed a bad deal since the US had and still has a trade deficit with Canada.

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

Ah, so politicians care about us and want to help us, and all we have to do is cede more power to restrict our rights to trade to do that. Gosh, you didn't mention they just want more power because of their concern for me. Now I'm OK with it, take my rights and I'll just trust them to make them ... better ... Correll said so!

You're a good guy, but you're so naive, is it still wet behind your ears?

I've made no claim of Trump being motivated purely the pure goodness of his pure heart.

The self interest in his choice of polices is pretty obvious to me. That was a strawman.

"Right to Trade"?


Trade Policy has ALWAYS been a government function, at least for the past couple of centuries.

If China is fucking America and most Americans with THEIR Trade Policy, you have no "Right" to expect the rest of the nation to bend over and take it.

Which they are.

No strawman, you're expecting that if we give government more power to tell us who, when and were we can trade with, they will make it better. Politicians, seriously. There is no history of that at all.

The strawman was your snide comments about politicians "care about us and want to help us".

If the government wants to put pressure on other countries by threatening them with things like that we defend them and they'd better open their borders to our companies, then sure, I'm all for that.

China doesn't need US to defend them. Neither does Germany or the EU, anymore. What you suggest there is rarely leverage usable in Trade policy.

But Trump is specifically saying he's going to restrict our ability to trade and even screw American companies who don't play by his rules. Oh, but it's for our own good. Yeah. And I just bought the Brooklyn Bridge too.

You ever visit the Rust Belt? OUr Trade Policy of the last 40 years has NOT "been for our own good."

The best example of what an anti-capitalist, anti-free trader he is I've heard is that he proposed a $1,500 tax on every air conditioner imported by Carrier if they move operations to Mexico. No, companies can't make rational decisions, they have to make Trump decisions and stay here and get screwed by their own government.

What "rational decisions" can those workers make in order to maintain their quality of life in competition with Mexican workers that make 2$ an hour?

You are talking about people lives that are being fucked up.

And it does not have to be that way.

Let's make this the best place to do business so US companies want to stay and foreign companies want to relocate here. Trump is the wrong direction, building economic walls.

American workers can't compete with workers willing to work for 2$ an hour. What you propose is generations of hardship for the majority of Americans in the name of Ideology.

It is bad policy.

The man is no Reagan

In Reagan's time it was still reasonable to believe that in short order, American businesses would be forced to be more competitive and workers would retrain for higher tech jobs.

Time has shown that that is not working.

American business leaders have learned to adapt to make money DESPITE their failure to compete.

There are not enough STEM jobs to make up the difference AND American business leaders have been IMPORTING cheap Third World Labor to undercut those that do retrain.


The purpose of Ideology is to find a set of Principles that work, thus allowing one to have a quick response to new situations.

BUT part of that is that when policies based on those principles are NOT working we have to revisit the Policies and/or the Principles to determine why.

 

[Correll]

I don't agree that Reagan was for bad trade deals. You would need to support that.

Reagan signed the original free trade agreement with Canada.

Since in the Trumpian world, the only definition of a bad deal is the discredited 19th century mercantilist belief that it's bad if you have a trade deficit, Reagan signed a bad deal since the US had and still has a trade deficit with Canada.

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

I'm no more unhappy about manufacturing jobs than I'm unhappy about the loss of jobs in agriculture. In 1900, half the jobs in America were on the farm. Today, it's about 3%. And we produce 10x more agriculture produce than we did back then. I don't blame Trump's supporters. They are doing what any disenfranchised group does - they are looking for the government to interfere in the economy and engineer a redistribution of wealth from guys like me, the owners of capital, to them. I believe in capitalism, which has created the greatest amount of wealth in history. Ever. Full-stop. And capitalism is based on creative destruction. What is being creatively destructed is the removal of jobs from the manufacturing industry. That's going to happen anyways, like it did in agriculture. We used to have high tariffs on ag products but jobs were lost anyways due to automation. Trump is lying to you. Millions of manufacturing jobs aren't coming back here. Sorry. If high tariffs force production back to the US, the work will be done by robots and we will all be poorer because there won't be more jobs and everything will cost more.

I do agree with Trump on intellectual piracy and something should be done about it, but that was the Faustian Bargain American industry made with China to access their growing market, something their shareholders demanded.

Trade deficits are neither good nor bad. The countries with trade deficits aren't demanding we rip up trade agreements.

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

What is driving jobs and companies overseas is government. Our corporate tax rate, our endless rules and regulations. Obamacare.

If you haven't been able to fix that in the last 40 years, you aren't going to be fixing that any time soon.

And ignoring the Wage Factor does not make it go away.

Government is causing it. Now government's coming and offering to fix it, and you're in! Thanks government!

Trade Policy is and has always been part of the Government bailiwick.

Ronald Reagan: Government is the problem, not the solution

I love Reagan as much as the next guy, who is not a fool. But I don't think he would be happy with the results of his Trade Policies. The Idea was that US manufactures would be forced to be competitive, and that the "creative destruction" would lead to new growth.

That has NOT happened.

Well, according to you, it's both because I know you're not a liberal, Correll. You were right the first time. Don't trust them.

Again, if government wants to fight for free trade without restricting our rights in the process, I'm all for that. And you know better than to take the sucker deal that they are going to restrict our rights, but only to expand them!!!!

The rest of the WORLD has built itself around unfair trade with US. There is no way they are going to walk away from that Money Fountain without a fight.

If we demand "Free Trade" they might very well buckle and agree.

And their primary purpose will be to talk smack, hide barriers to our trade and stall till the Trump Presidency is over, or weakened by mid term elections.


You need to take some of the skepticism you have about American politicians and focus it on the politicians of our Trading Partners.

 

[kaz]

Reagan signed the original free trade agreement with Canada.

Since in the Trumpian world, the only definition of a bad deal is the discredited 19th century mercantilist belief that it's bad if you have a trade deficit, Reagan signed a bad deal since the US had and still has a trade deficit with Canada.

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

Ah, so politicians care about us and want to help us, and all we have to do is cede more power to restrict our rights to trade to do that. Gosh, you didn't mention they just want more power because of their concern for me. Now I'm OK with it, take my rights and I'll just trust them to make them ... better ... Correll said so!

You're a good guy, but you're so naive, is it still wet behind your ears?

I've made no claim of Trump being motivated purely the pure goodness of his pure heart.

The self interest in his choice of polices is pretty obvious to me. That was a strawman.

"Right to Trade"?


Trade Policy has ALWAYS been a government function, at least for the past couple of centuries.

If China is fucking America and most Americans with THEIR Trade Policy, you have no "Right" to expect the rest of the nation to bend over and take it.

Which they are.

No strawman, you're expecting that if we give government more power to tell us who, when and were we can trade with, they will make it better. Politicians, seriously. There is no history of that at all.

The strawman was your snide comments about politicians "care about us and want to help us".

If the government wants to put pressure on other countries by threatening them with things like that we defend them and they'd better open their borders to our companies, then sure, I'm all for that.

China doesn't need US to defend them. Neither does Germany or the EU, anymore. What you suggest there is rarely leverage usable in Trade policy.

But Trump is specifically saying he's going to restrict our ability to trade and even screw American companies who don't play by his rules. Oh, but it's for our own good. Yeah. And I just bought the Brooklyn Bridge too.

You ever visit the Rust Belt? OUr Trade Policy of the last 40 years has NOT "been for our own good."

The best example of what an anti-capitalist, anti-free trader he is I've heard is that he proposed a $1,500 tax on every air conditioner imported by Carrier if they move operations to Mexico. No, companies can't make rational decisions, they have to make Trump decisions and stay here and get screwed by their own government.

What "rational decisions" can those workers make in order to maintain their quality of life in competition with Mexican workers that make 2$ an hour?

You are talking about people lives that are being fucked up.

And it does not have to be that way.

Let's make this the best place to do business so US companies want to stay and foreign companies want to relocate here. Trump is the wrong direction, building economic walls.

American workers can't compete with workers willing to work for 2$ an hour. What you propose is generations of hardship for the majority of Americans in the name of Ideology.

It is bad policy.

The man is no Reagan

In Reagan's time it was still reasonable to believe that in short order, American businesses would be forced to be more competitive and workers would retrain for higher tech jobs.

Time has shown that that is not working.

American business leaders have learned to adapt to make money DESPITE their failure to compete.

There are not enough STEM jobs to make up the difference AND American business leaders have been IMPORTING cheap Third World Labor to undercut those that do retrain.


The purpose of Ideology is to find a set of Principles that work, thus allowing one to have a quick response to new situations.

BUT part of that is that when policies based on those principles are NOT working we have to revisit the Policies and/or the Principles to determine why.

An interesting approach. Instead of denying Trump is an anti-capitalist, anti free market, anti trade candidate, you are just arguing I should be those things too.

The world changes. You John Birchers would have kept blacksmiths because they need the job, we'd as Toro pointed out still be an agriculture society because farmers needed the job. We'd be the poorest country on the planet instead of the richest.

Trump has certainly tapped into the hysterical fear of change crowd. Not what made America great. But between you and the left what we are going back to. The map to success is to embrace change, not fear it.

On a more practical side, I'm curious how you're going to win when you're losing moderates like Toro and libertarians like me who care the most about fiscal policies and won't vote for Republicans because you're running the wrong direction. But I suppose that's your problem, not mine

 

[Claudette]

Humm, can I imagine as president a guy who has negotiated sophisticated international business deals, who has created tens of thousands of jobs, who has run a multinational corporation and built up a net worth of at least $4 billion, who has smashed the record for votes in a GOP primary, who has led tens of thousands of Democrats to switch parties, etc., etc.? Uh, yes! Yes, I certainly can.

I don't care if he has a huge ego, how he speaks, or how he looks. Sheesh, Hillary has a massive ego, and by numerous accounts from security staffers and others who have been around her in a private, she is a monster in private and treats her subordinates like dirt. Not to mention the fact that she's a compulsive liar and one of the corrupt public figures in American history.

I agree and you can add stupid, careless and incompetent to the list as well.

Leave it to an idiot who thinks FDR was the greatest to push for Hitlery as POTUS.

Good Lord the man is an old asshole.

 

[Correll]

I don't agree that Reagan was for bad trade deals. You would need to support that.

Reagan signed the original free trade agreement with Canada.

Since in the Trumpian world, the only definition of a bad deal is the discredited 19th century mercantilist belief that it's bad if you have a trade deficit, Reagan signed a bad deal since the US had and still has a trade deficit with Canada.

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

I'm no more unhappy about manufacturing jobs than I'm unhappy about the loss of jobs in agriculture. In 1900, half the jobs in America were on the farm. Today, it's about 3%. And we produce 10x more agriculture produce than we did back then. I don't blame Trump's supporters. They are doing what any disenfranchised group does - they are looking for the government to interfere in the economy and engineer a redistribution of wealth from guys like me, the owners of capital, to them. I believe in capitalism, which has created the greatest amount of wealth in history. Ever. Full-stop. And capitalism is based on creative destruction. What is being creatively destructed is the removal of jobs from the manufacturing industry. That's going to happen anyways, like it did in agriculture. We used to have high tariffs on ag products but jobs were lost anyways due to automation. Trump is lying to you. Millions of manufacturing jobs aren't coming back here. Sorry. If high tariffs force production back to the US, the work will be done by robots and we will all be poorer because there won't be more jobs and everything will cost more.

I do agree with Trump on intellectual piracy and something should be done about it, but that was the Faustian Bargain American industry made with China to access their growing market, something their shareholders demanded.

Trade deficits are neither good nor bad. The countries with trade deficits aren't demanding we rip up trade agreements.

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

Manufacturing jobs in Germany are half that in the economy compared to 40 years ago.

Percent of Employment in Manufacturing in Germany (DISCONTINUED)

Germany also is under the same trade agreements with the China as a co-signer of the WTO.

German workers also work less than American workers.

None of that addresses my point that Germany has TWICE the rate of manufacturing jobs that America has.

Except that Germany workers being less productive than American workers makes my point STRONGER.

How is it that GERMANY manages to have such a relatively healthy manufacturing employment when their workers work less and they face all the same factors that we do?

imo, it is Trade Policy.

 

[kaz]

Reagan signed the original free trade agreement with Canada.

Since in the Trumpian world, the only definition of a bad deal is the discredited 19th century mercantilist belief that it's bad if you have a trade deficit, Reagan signed a bad deal since the US had and still has a trade deficit with Canada.

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

I'm no more unhappy about manufacturing jobs than I'm unhappy about the loss of jobs in agriculture. In 1900, half the jobs in America were on the farm. Today, it's about 3%. And we produce 10x more agriculture produce than we did back then. I don't blame Trump's supporters. They are doing what any disenfranchised group does - they are looking for the government to interfere in the economy and engineer a redistribution of wealth from guys like me, the owners of capital, to them. I believe in capitalism, which has created the greatest amount of wealth in history. Ever. Full-stop. And capitalism is based on creative destruction. What is being creatively destructed is the removal of jobs from the manufacturing industry. That's going to happen anyways, like it did in agriculture. We used to have high tariffs on ag products but jobs were lost anyways due to automation. Trump is lying to you. Millions of manufacturing jobs aren't coming back here. Sorry. If high tariffs force production back to the US, the work will be done by robots and we will all be poorer because there won't be more jobs and everything will cost more.

I do agree with Trump on intellectual piracy and something should be done about it, but that was the Faustian Bargain American industry made with China to access their growing market, something their shareholders demanded.

Trade deficits are neither good nor bad. The countries with trade deficits aren't demanding we rip up trade agreements.

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

What is driving jobs and companies overseas is government. Our corporate tax rate, our endless rules and regulations. Obamacare.

If you haven't been able to fix that in the last 40 years, you aren't going to be fixing that any time soon.

And ignoring the Wage Factor does not make it go away.

Government is causing it. Now government's coming and offering to fix it, and you're in! Thanks government!

Trade Policy is and has always been part of the Government bailiwick.

Ronald Reagan: Government is the problem, not the solution

I love Reagan as much as the next guy, who is not a fool. But I don't think he would be happy with the results of his Trade Policies. The Idea was that US manufactures would be forced to be competitive, and that the "creative destruction" would lead to new growth.

That has NOT happened.

Well, according to you, it's both because I know you're not a liberal, Correll. You were right the first time. Don't trust them.

Again, if government wants to fight for free trade without restricting our rights in the process, I'm all for that. And you know better than to take the sucker deal that they are going to restrict our rights, but only to expand them!!!!

The rest of the WORLD has built itself around unfair trade with US. There is no way they are going to walk away from that Money Fountain without a fight.

If we demand "Free Trade" they might very well buckle and agree.

And their primary purpose will be to talk smack, hide barriers to our trade and stall till the Trump Presidency is over, or weakened by mid term elections.


You need to take some of the skepticism you have about American politicians and focus it on the politicians of our Trading Partners.

You and Trump know nothing about economics. Free trade is better even if it's one way, we aren't losing jobs because of it. You're ignoring the benefit to consumers and the cost competitiveness of our businesses. And we are far from having one way free trade. I don't even really know what you're talking about. I've worked endlessly in Europe and working with India and China and it was all for American companies.

You John Birchers just want to live in shacks again. But hey, we'll all have the same size shack, then life will be fair. It'll suck, but you won't have to look out at anyone else having a bigger shack and be jealous.

Well, except the politicians, they'll live in houses. But that's OK, they're the ones who made life fair. They deserve to have more than we do

 

[kaz]

Reagan signed the original free trade agreement with Canada.

Since in the Trumpian world, the only definition of a bad deal is the discredited 19th century mercantilist belief that it's bad if you have a trade deficit, Reagan signed a bad deal since the US had and still has a trade deficit with Canada.

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

I'm no more unhappy about manufacturing jobs than I'm unhappy about the loss of jobs in agriculture. In 1900, half the jobs in America were on the farm. Today, it's about 3%. And we produce 10x more agriculture produce than we did back then. I don't blame Trump's supporters. They are doing what any disenfranchised group does - they are looking for the government to interfere in the economy and engineer a redistribution of wealth from guys like me, the owners of capital, to them. I believe in capitalism, which has created the greatest amount of wealth in history. Ever. Full-stop. And capitalism is based on creative destruction. What is being creatively destructed is the removal of jobs from the manufacturing industry. That's going to happen anyways, like it did in agriculture. We used to have high tariffs on ag products but jobs were lost anyways due to automation. Trump is lying to you. Millions of manufacturing jobs aren't coming back here. Sorry. If high tariffs force production back to the US, the work will be done by robots and we will all be poorer because there won't be more jobs and everything will cost more.

I do agree with Trump on intellectual piracy and something should be done about it, but that was the Faustian Bargain American industry made with China to access their growing market, something their shareholders demanded.

Trade deficits are neither good nor bad. The countries with trade deficits aren't demanding we rip up trade agreements.

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

Manufacturing jobs in Germany are half that in the economy compared to 40 years ago.

Percent of Employment in Manufacturing in Germany (DISCONTINUED)

Germany also is under the same trade agreements with the China as a co-signer of the WTO.

German workers also work less than American workers.

None of that addresses my point that Germany has TWICE the rate of manufacturing jobs that America has.

Except that Germany workers being less productive than American workers makes my point STRONGER.

How is it that GERMANY manages to have such a relatively healthy manufacturing employment when their workers work less and they face all the same factors that we do?

imo, it is Trade Policy.

Let's not strive to be like Socialist European countries, let's make them strive to be like us. You know, like they used to, until the fear and hate crowd took over.

We need more freedom and to embrace the future. Closing our doors isn't how we got here and it isn't going to fix shit and your trust in politicians to take away freedom in exchange for a promise they will give back more in the future is inexplicable and entirely unsupported by empirical data

 

[Correll]

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

Ah, so politicians care about us and want to help us, and all we have to do is cede more power to restrict our rights to trade to do that. Gosh, you didn't mention they just want more power because of their concern for me. Now I'm OK with it, take my rights and I'll just trust them to make them ... better ... Correll said so!

You're a good guy, but you're so naive, is it still wet behind your ears?

I've made no claim of Trump being motivated purely the pure goodness of his pure heart.

The self interest in his choice of polices is pretty obvious to me. That was a strawman.

"Right to Trade"?


Trade Policy has ALWAYS been a government function, at least for the past couple of centuries.

If China is fucking America and most Americans with THEIR Trade Policy, you have no "Right" to expect the rest of the nation to bend over and take it.

Which they are.

No strawman, you're expecting that if we give government more power to tell us who, when and were we can trade with, they will make it better. Politicians, seriously. There is no history of that at all.

The strawman was your snide comments about politicians "care about us and want to help us".

If the government wants to put pressure on other countries by threatening them with things like that we defend them and they'd better open their borders to our companies, then sure, I'm all for that.

China doesn't need US to defend them. Neither does Germany or the EU, anymore. What you suggest there is rarely leverage usable in Trade policy.

But Trump is specifically saying he's going to restrict our ability to trade and even screw American companies who don't play by his rules. Oh, but it's for our own good. Yeah. And I just bought the Brooklyn Bridge too.

You ever visit the Rust Belt? OUr Trade Policy of the last 40 years has NOT "been for our own good."

The best example of what an anti-capitalist, anti-free trader he is I've heard is that he proposed a $1,500 tax on every air conditioner imported by Carrier if they move operations to Mexico. No, companies can't make rational decisions, they have to make Trump decisions and stay here and get screwed by their own government.

What "rational decisions" can those workers make in order to maintain their quality of life in competition with Mexican workers that make 2$ an hour?

You are talking about people lives that are being fucked up.

And it does not have to be that way.

Let's make this the best place to do business so US companies want to stay and foreign companies want to relocate here. Trump is the wrong direction, building economic walls.

American workers can't compete with workers willing to work for 2$ an hour. What you propose is generations of hardship for the majority of Americans in the name of Ideology.

It is bad policy.

The man is no Reagan

In Reagan's time it was still reasonable to believe that in short order, American businesses would be forced to be more competitive and workers would retrain for higher tech jobs.

Time has shown that that is not working.

American business leaders have learned to adapt to make money DESPITE their failure to compete.

There are not enough STEM jobs to make up the difference AND American business leaders have been IMPORTING cheap Third World Labor to undercut those that do retrain.


The purpose of Ideology is to find a set of Principles that work, thus allowing one to have a quick response to new situations.

BUT part of that is that when policies based on those principles are NOT working we have to revisit the Policies and/or the Principles to determine why.

An interesting approach. Instead of denying Trump is an anti-capitalist, anti free market, anti trade candidate, you are just arguing I should be those things too.

I addressed the substance of your points. The results of our Trade Policies has not been what Free Trade Capitalism has told US it should be.

IF the policies do not serve the interests of the majority or the whole of the American people, they should be changed.

The world changes. You John Birchers would have kept blacksmiths because they need the job, we'd as Toro pointed out still be an agriculture society because farmers needed the job. We'd be the poorest country on the planet instead of the richest.

Nothing I've said supports that.

Trump has certainly tapped into the hysterical fear of change crowd. Not what made America great. But between you and the left what we are going back to. The map to success is to embrace change, not fear it.

Empty platitudes. The "fear" of what has happened to the Rust Belt and to the American Working Class and Middle Class wages is not "hysterical".

I did embrace change. America embraced change. These particular changes have NOT worked out the way they were supposed to.

If a policy does not work, change it.

On a more practical side, I'm curious how you're going to win when you're losing moderates like Toro and libertarians like me who care the most about fiscal policies and won't vote for Republicans because you're running the wrong direction. But I suppose that's your problem, not mine

Hopefully you'll wake up the reality that there policies are not serving American interests and come home.

Meanwhile the Dem blue dogs that the GOP needs to win are already on board.

And the continued decline of the Rust Belt, and the continued stagnation of Working Class and Middle Class wages is everyone's problem.

 

[Iceweasel]

You and Trump know nothing about economics. Free trade is better even if it's one way, we aren't losing jobs because of it. You're ignoring the benefit to consumers and the cost competitiveness of our businesses. And we are far from having one way free trade. I don't even really know what you're talking about. I've worked endlessly in Europe and working with India and China and it was all for American companies.

You John Birchers just want to live in shacks again. But hey, we'll all have the same size shack, then life will be fair. It'll suck, but you won't have to look out at anyone else having a bigger shack and be jealous.

Well, except the politicians, they'll live in houses. But that's OK, they're the ones who made life fair. They deserve to have more than we do

You are confused. Free trade works both ways, you see, that's what the term means. Trade is a two way street. If it's an uneven arrangement it isn't exactly free trade. How many more jobs do we need to lose before you get it?

Your incessant whining about your boy not getting the nod is pathetic, you need to just find a way to deal with it and move on. I honestly can't figure out what you think you are accomplishing. The party isn't going to install Ted just to make you happy.

 

[Correll]

Are you really happy with the effect that our large trade deficit has had on our manufacturing sector?

Are you happy with the massive software and video piracy that is operated on an industrial scale in China?

Isn't it funny that none of these nations that HAVE these huge trade surpluses are unhappy with these deals and never want to change them, if Trade Deficits are good?

I'm no more unhappy about manufacturing jobs than I'm unhappy about the loss of jobs in agriculture. In 1900, half the jobs in America were on the farm. Today, it's about 3%. And we produce 10x more agriculture produce than we did back then. I don't blame Trump's supporters. They are doing what any disenfranchised group does - they are looking for the government to interfere in the economy and engineer a redistribution of wealth from guys like me, the owners of capital, to them. I believe in capitalism, which has created the greatest amount of wealth in history. Ever. Full-stop. And capitalism is based on creative destruction. What is being creatively destructed is the removal of jobs from the manufacturing industry. That's going to happen anyways, like it did in agriculture. We used to have high tariffs on ag products but jobs were lost anyways due to automation. Trump is lying to you. Millions of manufacturing jobs aren't coming back here. Sorry. If high tariffs force production back to the US, the work will be done by robots and we will all be poorer because there won't be more jobs and everything will cost more.

I do agree with Trump on intellectual piracy and something should be done about it, but that was the Faustian Bargain American industry made with China to access their growing market, something their shareholders demanded.

Trade deficits are neither good nor bad. The countries with trade deficits aren't demanding we rip up trade agreements.

1. Automation doesn't stop Germany from having TWICE the rate of manufacturing employment as we do. That's a lot of jobs you are just giving up on. That's a lot of jobs that CAN come back.

2. The Trade Policy we have NOW is redistributing wealth. From the workers who don't want to move to China so they can work at slave labor in unsafe polluted environments to the "capitalists" who CAN move their investments and production there.

3. Capitalism does not mean that we have to accept playing with rules slanted against US.

4. "Creative destruction" is supposed to lead to new growth. I've been waiting for that for 40 years. It is not working.

5. It is a bad bargain. We don't have good or fair access to their market and they are ripping US off for tens of billions.

6. All of our major trade partners have Trade Surpluses with US. IF you compare what has happened to the Rust Belt over the last 40 years to what has happened to Japan, and Germany and South Korea, and China, a reasonable observer would have to conclude the Trade Deficits are BAD, and Trade Surpluses are GOOD.

What is driving jobs and companies overseas is government. Our corporate tax rate, our endless rules and regulations. Obamacare.

If you haven't been able to fix that in the last 40 years, you aren't going to be fixing that any time soon.

And ignoring the Wage Factor does not make it go away.

Government is causing it. Now government's coming and offering to fix it, and you're in! Thanks government!

Trade Policy is and has always been part of the Government bailiwick.

Ronald Reagan: Government is the problem, not the solution

I love Reagan as much as the next guy, who is not a fool. But I don't think he would be happy with the results of his Trade Policies. The Idea was that US manufactures would be forced to be competitive, and that the "creative destruction" would lead to new growth.

That has NOT happened.

Well, according to you, it's both because I know you're not a liberal, Correll. You were right the first time. Don't trust them.

Again, if government wants to fight for free trade without restricting our rights in the process, I'm all for that. And you know better than to take the sucker deal that they are going to restrict our rights, but only to expand them!!!!

The rest of the WORLD has built itself around unfair trade with US. There is no way they are going to walk away from that Money Fountain without a fight.

If we demand "Free Trade" they might very well buckle and agree.

And their primary purpose will be to talk smack, hide barriers to our trade and stall till the Trump Presidency is over, or weakened by mid term elections.


You need to take some of the skepticism you have about American politicians and focus it on the politicians of our Trading Partners.

You and Trump know nothing about economics. Free trade is better even if it's one way, we aren't losing jobs because of it. You're ignoring the benefit to consumers and the cost competitiveness of our businesses. And we are far from having one way free trade. I don't even really know what you're talking about. I've worked endlessly in Europe and working with India and China and it was all for American companies.

You John Birchers just want to live in shacks again. But hey, we'll all have the same size shack, then life will be fair. It'll suck, but you won't have to look out at anyone else having a bigger shack and be jealous.

Well, except the politicians, they'll live in houses. But that's OK, they're the ones who made life fair. They deserve to have more than we do

The same economists who told us that, back in the 80s, are the same ones that told US that US manufacturers would be forced to become competitive and that workers would retrain and get even better paying jobs in high tech industries.


THE PREDICTED RESULTS HAVE NOT HAPPENED.