Should a Jewish Bakery Have the Right to Deny...

[NYcarbineer]

A school isn't private property.
/Fail.

A school district is run by private citizens forming a local government. The principles don't change.

How can the act be both just and unjust? How can refusing blacks admission to a school be unjust,

but refusing them admission to a restaurant be just?

A school is not private property. A restaurant is.
See the difference?

Not in the context of what I just said.

In order for businesses to legally racially discriminate, the government would have to allow it,

that makes it government sanctioned racism, i.e., public policy.

 

[dblack]

Exactly. A person DOES forfeit rights in a marketplace .. or in commerce. A person may not exercise his rights in a way that makes my property less valuable or increases my costs without my consent.

That's utter nonsense. You have no right to dictate to others like that, majority vote or not.

Actually we do. You may think you should have 10,000 votes? By law, you have one.

Yeah... I hear you. Your entire zeitgeist is based on majority rule. Scary shit.

 

[The Rabbi]

A school district is run by private citizens forming a local government. The principles don't change.

How can the act be both just and unjust? How can refusing blacks admission to a school be unjust,

but refusing them admission to a restaurant be just?

A school is not private property. A restaurant is.
See the difference?

Not in the context of what I just said.

In order for businesses to legally racially discriminate, the government would have to allow it,

that makes it government sanctioned racism, i.e., public policy.

A simple NO to my question would have sufficed. You don't have to demonstrate how little understanding you have.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Exactly. A person DOES forfeit rights in a marketplace .. or in commerce. A person may not exercise his rights in a way that makes my property less valuable or increases my costs without my consent.

The question is how does a homophobic, fundy xtian not baking a cake take money or property from a gay couple who don't get a cake?

It's not about property. It's about equal access to the marketplace, just as it's about equality before the law for a marriage license. Not everybody is going to like, not everybody has to. At some point we just have to say Deal With It and get on with living, happy together or not.

What part of the Constitution guarantees equal access to a marketplace?
More made up crap.

It's a concept called Extra-Constitutional, and nearly all laws here are. They may be based on the Constitution, or some principle within it, but they are not in the Constitution so what you are asking is simply childish.

There's no law in the Constitution that my hairdryer have a GFI on it, but it does and that is by Law.

 

[bendog]

The majority and the minority always have rights in conflict. Did they not teach you that? And just because I feel that speed limits are unfair doesn't mean I can ignore them and get away with it. Your morality is yours, our morality is ours. When you are in the marketplace, ours, society's, wins. In church yours will likely, but not always, prevail. Got it?

I guess really the conceit of the position, the idea we forfeit individual rights when in 'the marketplace'.

The idea that all businesses open to the public should be effectively converted into private clubs is an absurdity. Do you realize the amount of constitutional case law, not to mention original provisions in the Constitution that would have to overturned/repealed in order to accomplish that?

You are living in a fantasy world.

Well, the question really is do we want society to extend the prohibition of private discrimination on race and religion to orientation? I say no, simply because imo the private discrimination on race and religion would have been ended by citizens exercising free speech, because ultimately Americans will do the right thing because most of us are decent human beings. Change takes time, and people are hurt. But so long as its not the state segregation or using hate speech to do violence to people, then, imo, it's not a govt issue.

 

[The Rabbi]

It's not about property. It's about equal access to the marketplace, just as it's about equality before the law for a marriage license. Not everybody is going to like, not everybody has to. At some point we just have to say Deal With It and get on with living, happy together or not.

What part of the Constitution guarantees equal access to a marketplace?
More made up crap.

It's a concept called Extra-Constitutional, and nearly all laws here are. They may be based on the Constitution, or some principle within it, but they are not in the Constitution so what you are asking is simply childish.

There's no law in the Constitution that my hairdryer have a GFI on it, but it does and that is by Law.

So you have no source. You simply claimed it was so and we're supposed to believe you.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

That's utter nonsense. You have no right to dictate to others like that, majority vote or not.

Actually we do. You may think you should have 10,000 votes? By law, you have one.

Yeah... I hear you. You're entire zeitgeist is based on majority rule. Scary shit.

We don't have Majority Rule in the country. The Founders hated it. They weren't big one Democratic Republics either but it's as good as it gets if you want people to feel a part of their nation, and they did, with a lot of limitations so that the "people" didn't ruin the place.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

What part of the Constitution guarantees equal access to a marketplace?
More made up crap.

It's a concept called Extra-Constitutional, and nearly all laws here are. They may be based on the Constitution, or some principle within it, but they are not in the Constitution so what you are asking is simply childish.

There's no law in the Constitution that my hairdryer have a GFI on it, but it does and that is by Law.

So you have no source. You simply claimed it was so and we're supposed to believe you.

Go look it up you lazy bones. Try Google.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

I guess really the conceit of the position, the idea we forfeit individual rights when in 'the marketplace'.

The idea that all businesses open to the public should be effectively converted into private clubs is an absurdity. Do you realize the amount of constitutional case law, not to mention original provisions in the Constitution that would have to overturned/repealed in order to accomplish that?

You are living in a fantasy world.

Well, the question really is do we want society to extend the prohibition of private discrimination on race and religion to orientation? I say no, simply because imo the private discrimination on race and religion would have been ended by citizens exercising free speech, because ultimately Americans will do the right thing because most of us are decent human beings. Change takes time, and people are hurt. But so long as its not the state segregation or using hate speech to do violence to people, then, imo, it's not a govt issue.

Noted, and rejected by decades of American legal rulings.

 

[NYcarbineer]

I guess really the conceit of the position, the idea we forfeit individual rights when in 'the marketplace'.

The idea that all businesses open to the public should be effectively converted into private clubs is an absurdity. Do you realize the amount of constitutional case law, not to mention original provisions in the Constitution that would have to overturned/repealed in order to accomplish that?

You are living in a fantasy world.

It's more of a living nightmare actually. Watching yet another iteration of fascism building momentum. Will we ever be rid of it?

The fascists allowed businesses to discriminate against Jews. Is that what you want?

 

[Jarhead]

...a Christian Ideology based White Power group who goes into a Jewish bakery and request a cake in the shape a HHH and a burning cross? If they Jew denied baking this cake, since it's deeply against their religious faith?

Should the Jewish baker be forced to bake such a cake.


I mean few people argued the Baker was wrong when he refused to bake the cake "Happy Birthday Adolf Hitler!"

Adolf Hitler denied his birthday cake - Telegraph

Yet in AZ one can not conceive that a religious baker has any argument in not baking a cake for a gay marriage.

The vast vast majority of Christian bakers that don't want any part of a gay marriage ceremony would be fine selling to gays for any other occasion.

I personally disagree with a baker not making money for a gay marriage ceremony, but I can see their argument.

Go back to the birthday cake for Adolf Hitler, I think that baker was in the right and so did most people!

1. Are you really claiming to speak for the "vast vast majority" of Christian bakers? What are you basing that claim on?

2. I'm Jewish, and I'm not aware of any tenet of my faith that demands I refuse to serve White Supremacists.

3. Any business is able to refuse to serve any customer they want. They are just not allowed to openly do it for discriminatory reasons. Any Christian baker that doesn't want to bake a cake for a Gay Wedding can refuse to do so, they just aren't allowed to berate the customers with why they aren't doing it. There wouldn't be any lawsuits if the bakers just said "Sorry, we can't accept any more orders now", rather than "We won't cause you're gay".

whereas I agree with your premise 100%...there are holes in it.

If the baker said "sorry, we are not taking any more orders today" and then someone else walks in and they take that order and it gets back to the gay couple...

Then what?

 

[bendog]

The idea that all businesses open to the public should be effectively converted into private clubs is an absurdity. Do you realize the amount of constitutional case law, not to mention original provisions in the Constitution that would have to overturned/repealed in order to accomplish that?

You are living in a fantasy world.

Well, the question really is do we want society to extend the prohibition of private discrimination on race and religion to orientation? I say no, simply because imo the private discrimination on race and religion would have been ended by citizens exercising free speech, because ultimately Americans will do the right thing because most of us are decent human beings. Change takes time, and people are hurt. But so long as its not the state segregation or using hate speech to do violence to people, then, imo, it's not a govt issue.

Noted, and rejected by decades of American legal rulings.

Not so. GLBT have not been considered a suspect class, and that is the question. Should they be?

Before a knee jerk, remember that all GLBT folks asked on marriage was to be treated like everyone else by the govt.

Race and religion have been so classed, and gender less so. I would say those were mistakes that have led to racists, bigots and misogynists claiming victim status, but as you correctlty point out, the horse left the barn and the door's shut on that.

 

[GHook93]

Why do do the Christians only choose to deny services to only homersexuals and not other people that are sinners???

Nice twist of bullshit. They aren't denying gays services. A gay can shop at their bakery. What they are doing si denying a cake for a gay wedding which they object to! Big difference between the two!

Not according to the state of Oregon.

We are talking about Arizona so get your head out of your ass!

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

...a Christian Ideology based White Power group who goes into a Jewish bakery and request a cake in the shape a HHH and a burning cross? If they Jew denied baking this cake, since it's deeply against their religious faith?

Should the Jewish baker be forced to bake such a cake.


I mean few people argued the Baker was wrong when he refused to bake the cake "Happy Birthday Adolf Hitler!"

Adolf Hitler denied his birthday cake - Telegraph

Yet in AZ one can not conceive that a religious baker has any argument in not baking a cake for a gay marriage.

The vast vast majority of Christian bakers that don't want any part of a gay marriage ceremony would be fine selling to gays for any other occasion.

I personally disagree with a baker not making money for a gay marriage ceremony, but I can see their argument.

Go back to the birthday cake for Adolf Hitler, I think that baker was in the right and so did most people!

At least you and others on the right are consistent in your ignorance and what constitutes a fallacy.

 

[peach174]

...a Christian Ideology based White Power group who goes into a Jewish bakery and request a cake in the shape a HHH and a burning cross? If they Jew denied baking this cake, since it's deeply against their religious faith?

Should the Jewish baker be forced to bake such a cake.


I mean few people argued the Baker was wrong when he refused to bake the cake "Happy Birthday Adolf Hitler!"

Adolf Hitler denied his birthday cake - Telegraph

Yet in AZ one can not conceive that a religious baker has any argument in not baking a cake for a gay marriage.

The vast vast majority of Christian bakers that don't want any part of a gay marriage ceremony would be fine selling to gays for any other occasion.

I personally disagree with a baker not making money for a gay marriage ceremony, but I can see their argument.

Go back to the birthday cake for Adolf Hitler, I think that baker was in the right and so did most people!

At least you and others on the right are consistent in your ignorance and what constitutes a fallacy.

You are the one in ignorance.
The Christian Baker has the right to not bake a cake for a gay wedding and has the right to not get sued by that belief.
Gay's have the right to open their own Bake shop and refuse to sell to the straight people on the same principal of freedom and of not getting sued.
Each one has their freedom.

 

[High_Gravity]

I'm gonna open a bakery and deny service to everyone.

 

[dblack]

I'm gonna open a bakery and deny service to everyone.

Because everyone is gay. A little anyway. Or so I have read.

 

[bripat9643]

Should a Jewish Bakery Have the Right to Deny...
...a Christian Ideology based White Power group who goes into a Jewish bakery and request a cake in the shape a HHH and a burning cross?

No...

Yes, they should. Hatred, in any form, is not accepted.

That's the fascist point of view. In a free country, it doesn't matter what society finds "acceptable."

 

[NYcarbineer]

I guess really the conceit of the position, the idea we forfeit individual rights when in 'the marketplace'.

The idea that all businesses open to the public should be effectively converted into private clubs is an absurdity. Do you realize the amount of constitutional case law, not to mention original provisions in the Constitution that would have to overturned/repealed in order to accomplish that?

You are living in a fantasy world.

It was the law until the Heart of Atlanta case in the 1960s.
/Fail.

And you think there's a realistic chance that case would be overturned, and the Civil Rights Act of 1964 will be repealed, and every other federal law and SCOTUS decision upholding equal rights and non-discrimination in the area of commerce is going to repealed or overturned...

...that puts you in a fantasy world.

 

[Victory67]

Should every store in a town be able to refuse to sell to Jews, like what they did in Nazi Germany?

what a disgusting thought.