Should Churches be forced to accomodate for homosexual weddings?

[Mr.Right]

That's your opinion. I believe Jesus would be of a different one...but I've actually read what Jesus had to say about stuff.

Jesus didn't write any of the Gospels. They were eyewitness accounts. Jude was Jesus's friend and personal servant. Read Jude 1 and get back to me.

Jesus is God. God used men to write the Bible. Therefore, Jesus DID write the Bible.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

I think that the imposition to gay couples is small enough while the imposition to the baker (if they are working in good faith with genuine religious conviction and trying to do what they feel is right and in accordance with their religion....which I argue some are) is great enough that I'm inclined on giving a the baker a pass on this one issue.

As the degree of practical effect on a gay couple that will have to go to another baker doesn't come anywhere within several orders of magnitude of the practical effect of segregation or interracial marriage bans.

I think its a mistake to dismiss anyone who is adverse to making wedding products for gays as an 'anti-gay bigot'. While there are certainly many, I'd argue that there are some that genuinely have no animus toward gays, but are instead motivated by sincere religious belief and an aversion to offending God.

And that their needs are distinct from the bigots....and worthy of consideration.

In general I agree with you. Though I am not certain that we would excuse 'sincere religious belief' much in context of many other discrimination.

I agree. Which is why 'sincere religious belief' is one of two criteria I'm using. The other is practical effect. The imposition on the gay couple is quite small. Instances of this are rare, and available alternatives are vast.

I'm aware of the potential for a slippery slope. And it concerns me. But I've met people of good character and genuine principles that oppose providing wedding products to gays that I believe have no animus toward gays. But are instead motivated by what they feel is right, moral and in accordance with their faith.

These folks are worthy of some consideration.

I would be fine with a solution that did not require any financial penalties for a first incident- but would require business's to change their business model in the future- either sell their products to everyone without discrimination or stop selling whatever products that they think would be a religious dilemma for them in the future.

I'd be open a full exemption on this one issue. Or at least a discussion of it.

Its an interesting differentiation- the florist in Washington for example- she seems to have a sincerely held religious belief, and doesn't appear to have any animus against homosexuals.

Of course most of the people arguing on her 'behalf' here- start from a position of animus against homosexuals and try to use the bible to rationalize it.

The gays and the mormons have kinda 'broken bread' in Utah and come to some compromises. The State is moving forward on anti-gay discrimination legislation and religion-protection legislation. It seemed reasonable to me. Like people trying to understand and accommodate each other.

And it inspired me to clear the mental deck and have some pretty honest conversations with Christian friends of mine. The 'Love they Neighbor' Christians, not the 'God Hates Fags' Christians.

And I'm convinced at least some of these folks are genuinely motivated by sincere faith and no by any hostility toward gays. That their aversion to selling wedding products has to do with their relationship with God and not their relationship with gays.

I think there is some middle ground to be found on this specific and singular issue.

Yes, the middle ground is don't go into the wedding business if "some people's" weddings cause you consternation. As Syriusly pointed out, we would not allow these religious exemptions for any other minority group. It would be unthinkable to allow someone to use their religion to not serve an interracial couple.

So you're saying that one should not go into a business, if they're not prepared to tolerate every conceivable form of behavior?

ROFLMNAO... I tell ya friends, its getting harder and harder to not wish ill on these people. But, this is how ALL WARS start. So we shouldn't be surprised that our war will have begun through the same construct as every other war in the history of civilization.

 

[JFish123]

Next will be Christian pastors who refuse to perform a gay wedding will be sued for discrimination and more. Then welcome to Nazi Germany everybody


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

In general I agree with you. Though I am not certain that we would excuse 'sincere religious belief' much in context of many other discrimination.

I agree. Which is why 'sincere religious belief' is one of two criteria I'm using. The other is practical effect. The imposition on the gay couple is quite small. Instances of this are rare, and available alternatives are vast.

I'm aware of the potential for a slipper slope. And it concerns me. But I've met people of good character and genuine principles that oppose providing wedding products to gays that I believe have no animus toward gays. But are instead motivated by what they feel is right, moral and in accordance with their faith.

These folks are worthy of some consideration.

I would be fine with a solution that did not require any financial penalties for a first incident- but would require business's to change their business model in the future- either sell their products to everyone without discrimination or stop selling whatever products that they think would be a religious dilemma for them in the future.

I'd be open a full exemption on this one issue. Or at least a discussion of it.

Its an interesting differentiation- the florist in Washington for example- she seems to have a sincerely held religious belief, and doesn't appear to have any animus against homosexuals.

Of course most of the people arguing on her 'behalf' here- start from a position of animus against homosexuals and try to use the bible to rationalize it.

How do we know she doesn't? Because she sold them flowers before? Do we know for certain she knew they were gay before their wedding?

And can't anyone who wanted to discriminate simply say it's because of their religion?

How about we stay on topic. Do you believe that Christian churches should be forced to marry gays? Give me a simple yes or no.

Yes...but not by the government. They are being "forced" now.

Gay Friendly Churches Growing​

Nearly half of houses of worship in the United States now allow gay and lesbian members who are in long-term relationships to be members, while close to one in three now let gay and lesbian members hold voluntary leadership posts, according to a new study of more than a thousand American congregations.

The statistics, which represent a sharp uptick in acceptance of gay and lesbians in religious communities, are part of Duke University's latest National Congregations Study.​

How Evangelicals Are Changing Their Minds on Gay Marriage

In public, so many churches and pastors are afraid to talk about the generational and societal shifts happening. But behind the scenes, it’s a whole different game. Support for gay marriage across all age groups of white evangelicals has increased by double digits over the past decade, according to the Public Religion Research Institute, and the fastest change can be found among younger evangelicals—their support for gay marriage jumped from 20% in 2003 to 42% in 2014.[...]

This winter, EastLake Community Church outside Seattle is quietly coming out as one of the first evangelical megachurches in the country to support full inclusion and affirmation of LGBTQ people. It is almost impossible to overstate the significance of this move. EastLake is in many ways the quintessential evangelical megachurch–thousands-strong attendance, rock-music worship, Bible-preaching sermons. But pastor Ryan Meeks, 36, is on the front wave of a new choice. “I refuse to go to a church where my friends who are gay are excluded from Communion or a marriage covenant or the beauty of Christian community,” Meeks tells me. “It is a move of integrity for me—the message of Jesus was a message of wide inclusivity.”[...]

Brandan Robertson, 22, is the national spokesperson for Evangelicals for Marriage Equality, an effort started by millennials to help evangelicals support civil gay marriages, if not marriages in churches. Justin Lee, 37, of the Gay Christian Network hosted his 11th annual conference last week in Portland, Ore., and 1,400 people attended, double the number who came last year. Lee’s friendship with Alan Chambers, the former head of the ex-gay organization Exodus International, was one of the key factors that led Chambers to apologize for the hurt his organization caused, and the organization shut down.

For everyone on all sides, the Bible itself is at stake. And, religious change takes decades, centuries even, when it happens at all. But with each passing day it is becoming harder and harder to deny that change is indeed coming. Meeks put it this way: “Every positive reforming movement in church history is first labeled heresy. Evangelicalism is way behind on this. We have a debt to pay.”​

Anyone who is pro gay, and allows them in their Church is not a Christian.

That's your opinion. I believe Jesus would be of a different one...but I've actually read what Jesus had to say about stuff.

So you feel that Jesus, who said that those who harm children... would be better off to tie a millstone around their neck and toss into the sea, than to die and report to him in heaven, after having done so... you feel that Jesus would have no problem with a cult whose basis for existence is licensing adult/child sex?

ROFLMNAO!

The coolest part of all this is that Jesus is planning on coming back and you'll get to 'experience' this tolerance of evil, first hand.

And I should warn ya, the rumors that Christ is basically a door mat; quick with a handshake and all chuckles and grins... have PROBABLY been over-sold.

I mean this is a guy who allowed himself to LITERALLY be NAILED TO A CROSS to pay off YOUR TAB... and through your behavior, you're effectively telling him to FUCK OFF!

I get the impression that he's more of a 'hold 'em accountable kinda guy.

 

[Syriusly]

As Skylar has pointed out before- Churches are by nature discriminatory.

...'no one else does' - public accommodation laws only apply to business's- not to individuals not engaged in business, not to Churches.

Ok. Bigots are by nature discriminatory too. Why to business owned by bigots get targeted but churches do not?

What about individuals engaged in business? (aka 'customers') Are they allowed to discriminate?

No business gets a pass- but churches are not business's

Churches are very definitely businesses. Sometimes highly profitable businesses.

Do you know the reason why we have public accommodation laws?

To target unpopular biases for suppression.

Not quite- to target historic discrimination of unpopular minority groups for suppression.

Do you know why women are included in the classes referred to in the 1964 Civil Rights Act?

The cruel irony of PA laws, and protected classes logic, is that it actually contributes to the persecution of minorities.

All evidence to the contrary.

 

[Syriusly]

I think that the imposition to gay couples is small enough while the imposition to the baker (if they are working in good faith with genuine religious conviction and trying to do what they feel is right and in accordance with their religion....which I argue some are) is great enough that I'm inclined on giving a the baker a pass on this one issue.

As the degree of practical effect on a gay couple that will have to go to another baker doesn't come anywhere within several orders of magnitude of the practical effect of segregation or interracial marriage bans.

I think its a mistake to dismiss anyone who is adverse to making wedding products for gays as an 'anti-gay bigot'. While there are certainly many, I'd argue that there are some that genuinely have no animus toward gays, but are instead motivated by sincere religious belief and an aversion to offending God.

And that their needs are distinct from the bigots....and worthy of consideration.

In general I agree with you. Though I am not certain that we would excuse 'sincere religious belief' much in context of many other discrimination.

I agree. Which is why 'sincere religious belief' is one of two criteria I'm using. The other is practical effect. The imposition on the gay couple is quite small. Instances of this are rare, and available alternatives are vast.

I'm aware of the potential for a slipper slope. And it concerns me. But I've met people of good character and genuine principles that oppose providing wedding products to gays that I believe have no animus toward gays. But are instead motivated by what they feel is right, moral and in accordance with their faith.

These folks are worthy of some consideration.

I would be fine with a solution that did not require any financial penalties for a first incident- but would require business's to change their business model in the future- either sell their products to everyone without discrimination or stop selling whatever products that they think would be a religious dilemma for them in the future.

I'd be open a full exemption on this one issue. Or at least a discussion of it.

I agree. Which is why 'sincere religious belief' is one of two criteria I'm using. The other is practical effect. The imposition on the gay couple is quite small. Instances of this are rare, and available alternatives are vast.

I'm aware of the potential for a slippery slope. And it concerns me. But I've met people of good character and genuine principles that oppose providing wedding products to gays that I believe have no animus toward gays. But are instead motivated by what they feel is right, moral and in accordance with their faith.

These folks are worthy of some consideration.

I'd be open a full exemption on this one issue. Or at least a discussion of it.

Its an interesting differentiation- the florist in Washington for example- she seems to have a sincerely held religious belief, and doesn't appear to have any animus against homosexuals.

Of course most of the people arguing on her 'behalf' here- start from a position of animus against homosexuals and try to use the bible to rationalize it.

How do we know she doesn't? Because she sold them flowers before? Do we know for certain she knew they were gay before their wedding?

And can't anyone who wanted to discriminate simply say it's because of their religion?

How about we stay on topic. Do you believe that Christian churches should be forced to marry gays? Give me a simple yes or no.

Yes...but not by the government. They are being "forced" now.

Gay Friendly Churches Growing​

Nearly half of houses of worship in the United States now allow gay and lesbian members who are in long-term relationships to be members, while close to one in three now let gay and lesbian members hold voluntary leadership posts, according to a new study of more than a thousand American congregations.

The statistics, which represent a sharp uptick in acceptance of gay and lesbians in religious communities, are part of Duke University's latest National Congregations Study.​

How Evangelicals Are Changing Their Minds on Gay Marriage

In public, so many churches and pastors are afraid to talk about the generational and societal shifts happening. But behind the scenes, it’s a whole different game. Support for gay marriage across all age groups of white evangelicals has increased by double digits over the past decade, according to the Public Religion Research Institute, and the fastest change can be found among younger evangelicals—their support for gay marriage jumped from 20% in 2003 to 42% in 2014.[...]

This winter, EastLake Community Church outside Seattle is quietly coming out as one of the first evangelical megachurches in the country to support full inclusion and affirmation of LGBTQ people. It is almost impossible to overstate the significance of this move. EastLake is in many ways the quintessential evangelical megachurch–thousands-strong attendance, rock-music worship, Bible-preaching sermons. But pastor Ryan Meeks, 36, is on the front wave of a new choice. “I refuse to go to a church where my friends who are gay are excluded from Communion or a marriage covenant or the beauty of Christian community,” Meeks tells me. “It is a move of integrity for me—the message of Jesus was a message of wide inclusivity.”[...]

Brandan Robertson, 22, is the national spokesperson for Evangelicals for Marriage Equality, an effort started by millennials to help evangelicals support civil gay marriages, if not marriages in churches. Justin Lee, 37, of the Gay Christian Network hosted his 11th annual conference last week in Portland, Ore., and 1,400 people attended, double the number who came last year. Lee’s friendship with Alan Chambers, the former head of the ex-gay organization Exodus International, was one of the key factors that led Chambers to apologize for the hurt his organization caused, and the organization shut down.

For everyone on all sides, the Bible itself is at stake. And, religious change takes decades, centuries even, when it happens at all. But with each passing day it is becoming harder and harder to deny that change is indeed coming. Meeks put it this way: “Every positive reforming movement in church history is first labeled heresy. Evangelicalism is way behind on this. We have a debt to pay.”​

Anyone who is pro gay, and allows them in their Church is not a Christian.

Anyone who says that is not a Christian.

 

[Seawytch]

Next will be Christian pastors who refuse to perform a gay wedding will be sued for discrimination and more. Then welcome to Nazi Germany everybody


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As evidenced by all the churches that have been sued to perform interracial or interfaith marriages, right?

 

[Mr.Right]

I agree. Which is why 'sincere religious belief' is one of two criteria I'm using. The other is practical effect. The imposition on the gay couple is quite small. Instances of this are rare, and available alternatives are vast.

I'm aware of the potential for a slipper slope. And it concerns me. But I've met people of good character and genuine principles that oppose providing wedding products to gays that I believe have no animus toward gays. But are instead motivated by what they feel is right, moral and in accordance with their faith.

These folks are worthy of some consideration.

I'd be open a full exemption on this one issue. Or at least a discussion of it.

How do we know she doesn't? Because she sold them flowers before? Do we know for certain she knew they were gay before their wedding?

And can't anyone who wanted to discriminate simply say it's because of their religion?

How about we stay on topic. Do you believe that Christian churches should be forced to marry gays? Give me a simple yes or no.

Yes...but not by the government. They are being "forced" now.

Gay Friendly Churches Growing​

Nearly half of houses of worship in the United States now allow gay and lesbian members who are in long-term relationships to be members, while close to one in three now let gay and lesbian members hold voluntary leadership posts, according to a new study of more than a thousand American congregations.

The statistics, which represent a sharp uptick in acceptance of gay and lesbians in religious communities, are part of Duke University's latest National Congregations Study.​

How Evangelicals Are Changing Their Minds on Gay Marriage

In public, so many churches and pastors are afraid to talk about the generational and societal shifts happening. But behind the scenes, it’s a whole different game. Support for gay marriage across all age groups of white evangelicals has increased by double digits over the past decade, according to the Public Religion Research Institute, and the fastest change can be found among younger evangelicals—their support for gay marriage jumped from 20% in 2003 to 42% in 2014.[...]

This winter, EastLake Community Church outside Seattle is quietly coming out as one of the first evangelical megachurches in the country to support full inclusion and affirmation of LGBTQ people. It is almost impossible to overstate the significance of this move. EastLake is in many ways the quintessential evangelical megachurch–thousands-strong attendance, rock-music worship, Bible-preaching sermons. But pastor Ryan Meeks, 36, is on the front wave of a new choice. “I refuse to go to a church where my friends who are gay are excluded from Communion or a marriage covenant or the beauty of Christian community,” Meeks tells me. “It is a move of integrity for me—the message of Jesus was a message of wide inclusivity.”[...]

Brandan Robertson, 22, is the national spokesperson for Evangelicals for Marriage Equality, an effort started by millennials to help evangelicals support civil gay marriages, if not marriages in churches. Justin Lee, 37, of the Gay Christian Network hosted his 11th annual conference last week in Portland, Ore., and 1,400 people attended, double the number who came last year. Lee’s friendship with Alan Chambers, the former head of the ex-gay organization Exodus International, was one of the key factors that led Chambers to apologize for the hurt his organization caused, and the organization shut down.

For everyone on all sides, the Bible itself is at stake. And, religious change takes decades, centuries even, when it happens at all. But with each passing day it is becoming harder and harder to deny that change is indeed coming. Meeks put it this way: “Every positive reforming movement in church history is first labeled heresy. Evangelicalism is way behind on this. We have a debt to pay.”​

Anyone who is pro gay, and allows them in their Church is not a Christian.

That's your opinion. I believe Jesus would be of a different one...but I've actually read what Jesus had to say about stuff.

So you feel that Jesus, who said that those who harm children... would be better off to tie a millstone around their neck and toss into the sea, than to die and report to him in heaven, after having done so... you feel that Jesus would have no problem with a cult whose basis for existence is licensing adult/child sex?

ROFLMNAO!

The coolest part of all this is that Jesus is planning on coming back and you'll get to 'experience' this tolerance of evil, first hand.

And I should warn ya, the rumors that Christ is basically a door mat; quick with a handshake and all chuckles and grins... have PROBABLY been over-sold.

I mean this is a guy who allowed himself to LITERALLY be NAILED TO A CROSS to pay off YOUR TAB... and through your behavior, you're effectively telling him to FUCK OFF!

I get the impression that he's more of a 'hold 'em accountable kinda guy.

That last sentence explains it all. People reject Christ because they do not want to be accountable to anyone. Maybe that explains why most liberals aren't Christians.

 

[Syriusly]

I agree. Which is why 'sincere religious belief' is one of two criteria I'm using. The other is practical effect. The imposition on the gay couple is quite small. Instances of this are rare, and available alternatives are vast.

I'm aware of the potential for a slipper slope. And it concerns me. But I've met people of good character and genuine principles that oppose providing wedding products to gays that I believe have no animus toward gays. But are instead motivated by what they feel is right, moral and in accordance with their faith.

These folks are worthy of some consideration.

I'd be open a full exemption on this one issue. Or at least a discussion of it.

How do we know she doesn't? Because she sold them flowers before? Do we know for certain she knew they were gay before their wedding?

And can't anyone who wanted to discriminate simply say it's because of their religion?

How about we stay on topic. Do you believe that Christian churches should be forced to marry gays? Give me a simple yes or no.

Yes...but not by the government. They are being "forced" now.

Gay Friendly Churches Growing​

Nearly half of houses of worship in the United States now allow gay and lesbian members who are in long-term relationships to be members, while close to one in three now let gay and lesbian members hold voluntary leadership posts, according to a new study of more than a thousand American congregations.

The statistics, which represent a sharp uptick in acceptance of gay and lesbians in religious communities, are part of Duke University's latest National Congregations Study.​

How Evangelicals Are Changing Their Minds on Gay Marriage

In public, so many churches and pastors are afraid to talk about the generational and societal shifts happening. But behind the scenes, it’s a whole different game. Support for gay marriage across all age groups of white evangelicals has increased by double digits over the past decade, according to the Public Religion Research Institute, and the fastest change can be found among younger evangelicals—their support for gay marriage jumped from 20% in 2003 to 42% in 2014.[...]

This winter, EastLake Community Church outside Seattle is quietly coming out as one of the first evangelical megachurches in the country to support full inclusion and affirmation of LGBTQ people. It is almost impossible to overstate the significance of this move. EastLake is in many ways the quintessential evangelical megachurch–thousands-strong attendance, rock-music worship, Bible-preaching sermons. But pastor Ryan Meeks, 36, is on the front wave of a new choice. “I refuse to go to a church where my friends who are gay are excluded from Communion or a marriage covenant or the beauty of Christian community,” Meeks tells me. “It is a move of integrity for me—the message of Jesus was a message of wide inclusivity.”[...]

Brandan Robertson, 22, is the national spokesperson for Evangelicals for Marriage Equality, an effort started by millennials to help evangelicals support civil gay marriages, if not marriages in churches. Justin Lee, 37, of the Gay Christian Network hosted his 11th annual conference last week in Portland, Ore., and 1,400 people attended, double the number who came last year. Lee’s friendship with Alan Chambers, the former head of the ex-gay organization Exodus International, was one of the key factors that led Chambers to apologize for the hurt his organization caused, and the organization shut down.

For everyone on all sides, the Bible itself is at stake. And, religious change takes decades, centuries even, when it happens at all. But with each passing day it is becoming harder and harder to deny that change is indeed coming. Meeks put it this way: “Every positive reforming movement in church history is first labeled heresy. Evangelicalism is way behind on this. We have a debt to pay.”​

Anyone who is pro gay, and allows them in their Church is not a Christian.

That's your opinion. I believe Jesus would be of a different one...but I've actually read what Jesus had to say about stuff.

Homosexual behavior is prohibited in Scripture (Leviticus 20:13) and was a major cause of the divine judgment against Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:4-5, 12-13). The apostle Paul listed homosexuals among “the unrighteous” who would not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9), and declared that God’s wrath stands against such behavior, whether practiced by men or women (Romans 1:26-27).

Oh I love this subject.

• Male homosexual sex is prohibited in Leviticus- but so is:
• Mixing fabrics in clothing (19:19)
• Cursing your father or mother (punishable by death) (20:9)
• Trimming your beard (19:27)

But what was most important to Jesus? Well Jesus was pretty clear:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So tell me- do you love all of your neighbors? Even your homosexual neighbors?

 

[Syriusly]

Next will be Christian pastors who refuse to perform a gay wedding will be sued for discrimination and more. Then welcome to Nazi Germany everybody

Yeah- not so much.

Nazi Germany marched homosexuals into concentration camps to be murdered.

Meanwhile- any idiot can sue anyone for any reason- an idiot bigot could sue a homosexual for being a homosexual, or an idiot could sue a pastor for refusing to marry them- both would be idiotic lawsuits that would be thrown out- but any idiot can file a lawsuit. Even you.

 

[Syriusly]

I agree. Which is why 'sincere religious belief' is one of two criteria I'm using. The other is practical effect. The imposition on the gay couple is quite small. Instances of this are rare, and available alternatives are vast.

I'm aware of the potential for a slipper slope. And it concerns me. But I've met people of good character and genuine principles that oppose providing wedding products to gays that I believe have no animus toward gays. But are instead motivated by what they feel is right, moral and in accordance with their faith.

These folks are worthy of some consideration.

I'd be open a full exemption on this one issue. Or at least a discussion of it.

How do we know she doesn't? Because she sold them flowers before? Do we know for certain she knew they were gay before their wedding?

And can't anyone who wanted to discriminate simply say it's because of their religion?

How about we stay on topic. Do you believe that Christian churches should be forced to marry gays? Give me a simple yes or no.

Yes...but not by the government. They are being "forced" now.

Gay Friendly Churches Growing​

Nearly half of houses of worship in the United States now allow gay and lesbian members who are in long-term relationships to be members, while close to one in three now let gay and lesbian members hold voluntary leadership posts, according to a new study of more than a thousand American congregations.

The statistics, which represent a sharp uptick in acceptance of gay and lesbians in religious communities, are part of Duke University's latest National Congregations Study.​

How Evangelicals Are Changing Their Minds on Gay Marriage

In public, so many churches and pastors are afraid to talk about the generational and societal shifts happening. But behind the scenes, it’s a whole different game. Support for gay marriage across all age groups of white evangelicals has increased by double digits over the past decade, according to the Public Religion Research Institute, and the fastest change can be found among younger evangelicals—their support for gay marriage jumped from 20% in 2003 to 42% in 2014.[...]

This winter, EastLake Community Church outside Seattle is quietly coming out as one of the first evangelical megachurches in the country to support full inclusion and affirmation of LGBTQ people. It is almost impossible to overstate the significance of this move. EastLake is in many ways the quintessential evangelical megachurch–thousands-strong attendance, rock-music worship, Bible-preaching sermons. But pastor Ryan Meeks, 36, is on the front wave of a new choice. “I refuse to go to a church where my friends who are gay are excluded from Communion or a marriage covenant or the beauty of Christian community,” Meeks tells me. “It is a move of integrity for me—the message of Jesus was a message of wide inclusivity.”[...]

Brandan Robertson, 22, is the national spokesperson for Evangelicals for Marriage Equality, an effort started by millennials to help evangelicals support civil gay marriages, if not marriages in churches. Justin Lee, 37, of the Gay Christian Network hosted his 11th annual conference last week in Portland, Ore., and 1,400 people attended, double the number who came last year. Lee’s friendship with Alan Chambers, the former head of the ex-gay organization Exodus International, was one of the key factors that led Chambers to apologize for the hurt his organization caused, and the organization shut down.

For everyone on all sides, the Bible itself is at stake. And, religious change takes decades, centuries even, when it happens at all. But with each passing day it is becoming harder and harder to deny that change is indeed coming. Meeks put it this way: “Every positive reforming movement in church history is first labeled heresy. Evangelicalism is way behind on this. We have a debt to pay.”​

Anyone who is pro gay, and allows them in their Church is not a Christian.

That's your opinion. I believe Jesus would be of a different one...but I've actually read what Jesus had to say about stuff.

So you feel that Jesus, who said that those who harm children... would be better off to tie a millstone around their neck and toss into the sea, than to die and report to him in heaven, after having done so... you feel that Jesus would have no problem with a cult whose basis for existence is licensing adult/child sex?.

Lets look at Jesus's supposed actual instructions:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

 

[Syriusly]

How about we stay on topic. Do you believe that Christian churches should be forced to marry gays? Give me a simple yes or no.

Yes...but not by the government. They are being "forced" now.

Gay Friendly Churches Growing​

Nearly half of houses of worship in the United States now allow gay and lesbian members who are in long-term relationships to be members, while close to one in three now let gay and lesbian members hold voluntary leadership posts, according to a new study of more than a thousand American congregations.

The statistics, which represent a sharp uptick in acceptance of gay and lesbians in religious communities, are part of Duke University's latest National Congregations Study.​

How Evangelicals Are Changing Their Minds on Gay Marriage

In public, so many churches and pastors are afraid to talk about the generational and societal shifts happening. But behind the scenes, it’s a whole different game. Support for gay marriage across all age groups of white evangelicals has increased by double digits over the past decade, according to the Public Religion Research Institute, and the fastest change can be found among younger evangelicals—their support for gay marriage jumped from 20% in 2003 to 42% in 2014.[...]

This winter, EastLake Community Church outside Seattle is quietly coming out as one of the first evangelical megachurches in the country to support full inclusion and affirmation of LGBTQ people. It is almost impossible to overstate the significance of this move. EastLake is in many ways the quintessential evangelical megachurch–thousands-strong attendance, rock-music worship, Bible-preaching sermons. But pastor Ryan Meeks, 36, is on the front wave of a new choice. “I refuse to go to a church where my friends who are gay are excluded from Communion or a marriage covenant or the beauty of Christian community,” Meeks tells me. “It is a move of integrity for me—the message of Jesus was a message of wide inclusivity.”[...]

Brandan Robertson, 22, is the national spokesperson for Evangelicals for Marriage Equality, an effort started by millennials to help evangelicals support civil gay marriages, if not marriages in churches. Justin Lee, 37, of the Gay Christian Network hosted his 11th annual conference last week in Portland, Ore., and 1,400 people attended, double the number who came last year. Lee’s friendship with Alan Chambers, the former head of the ex-gay organization Exodus International, was one of the key factors that led Chambers to apologize for the hurt his organization caused, and the organization shut down.

For everyone on all sides, the Bible itself is at stake. And, religious change takes decades, centuries even, when it happens at all. But with each passing day it is becoming harder and harder to deny that change is indeed coming. Meeks put it this way: “Every positive reforming movement in church history is first labeled heresy. Evangelicalism is way behind on this. We have a debt to pay.”​

Anyone who is pro gay, and allows them in their Church is not a Christian.

That's your opinion. I believe Jesus would be of a different one...but I've actually read what Jesus had to say about stuff.

So you feel that Jesus, who said that those who harm children... would be better off to tie a millstone around their neck and toss into the sea, than to die and report to him in heaven, after having done so... you feel that Jesus would have no problem with a cult whose basis for existence is licensing adult/child sex?

ROFLMNAO!

The coolest part of all this is that Jesus is planning on coming back and you'll get to 'experience' this tolerance of evil, first hand.

And I should warn ya, the rumors that Christ is basically a door mat; quick with a handshake and all chuckles and grins... have PROBABLY been over-sold.

I mean this is a guy who allowed himself to LITERALLY be NAILED TO A CROSS to pay off YOUR TAB... and through your behavior, you're effectively telling him to FUCK OFF!

I get the impression that he's more of a 'hold 'em accountable kinda guy.

That last sentence explains it all. People reject Christ because they do not want to be accountable to anyone. Maybe that explains why most liberals aren't Christians.

I am not certain- are you a liar?

Or just an ignorant idiot?

More Than 9 in 10 Americans Continue to Believe in God

The majority of Democrats- and liberals- re Christians.

Of course you are the kind of 'Christian' who thinks anyone who doesn't agree with you is not a 'real Christian'......

 

[JFish123]

Next will be Christian pastors who refuse to perform a gay wedding will be sued for discrimination and more. Then welcome to Nazi Germany everybody


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As evidenced by all the churches that have been sued to perform interracial or interfaith marriages, right?

COEUR D’ALENE, Idaho – Alliance Defending Freedom attorneys filed a federal lawsuit and a motion for a temporary restraining order Friday to stop officials in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, from forcing two ordained Christian ministers to perform wedding ceremonies for same-sex couples.
City officials told Donald Knapp that he and his wife Evelyn, both ordained ministers who run Hitching Post Wedding Chapel, are required to perform such ceremonies or face months in jail and/or thousands of dollars in fines. The city claims its “non-discrimination” ordinance requires the Knapps to perform same-sex wedding ceremonies now that the courts have overridden Idaho’s voter-approved constitutional amendment that affirmed marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
Coeur d’Alene officials told the Knapps privately and also publicly stated that the couple would violate the city’s public accommodations statute once same-sex marriage became legal in Idaho if they declined to perform a same-sex ceremony at their chapel. On Friday, the Knapps respectfully declined such a ceremony and now face up to 180 days in jail and up to $1,000 in fines for each day they decline to perform that ceremony.
The lawsuit came the same week that the city of Houston issued subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity.
That's just one example recently. So yeah. And to equate homosexual behavior with having black skin is an affront to the civil rights movement. Were gay people barred from restaurants? Did people force gays to the back of the bus? Did they have to go to desperate schools? Did they have to drink out of the gay water fountain? Did they endure hundreds of years in slavery? I must have slept through that part if history class. I always miss something.


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[JFish123]

How about we stay on topic. Do you believe that Christian churches should be forced to marry gays? Give me a simple yes or no.

Yes...but not by the government. They are being "forced" now.

Gay Friendly Churches Growing​

Nearly half of houses of worship in the United States now allow gay and lesbian members who are in long-term relationships to be members, while close to one in three now let gay and lesbian members hold voluntary leadership posts, according to a new study of more than a thousand American congregations.

The statistics, which represent a sharp uptick in acceptance of gay and lesbians in religious communities, are part of Duke University's latest National Congregations Study.​

How Evangelicals Are Changing Their Minds on Gay Marriage

In public, so many churches and pastors are afraid to talk about the generational and societal shifts happening. But behind the scenes, it’s a whole different game. Support for gay marriage across all age groups of white evangelicals has increased by double digits over the past decade, according to the Public Religion Research Institute, and the fastest change can be found among younger evangelicals—their support for gay marriage jumped from 20% in 2003 to 42% in 2014.[...]

This winter, EastLake Community Church outside Seattle is quietly coming out as one of the first evangelical megachurches in the country to support full inclusion and affirmation of LGBTQ people. It is almost impossible to overstate the significance of this move. EastLake is in many ways the quintessential evangelical megachurch–thousands-strong attendance, rock-music worship, Bible-preaching sermons. But pastor Ryan Meeks, 36, is on the front wave of a new choice. “I refuse to go to a church where my friends who are gay are excluded from Communion or a marriage covenant or the beauty of Christian community,” Meeks tells me. “It is a move of integrity for me—the message of Jesus was a message of wide inclusivity.”[...]

Brandan Robertson, 22, is the national spokesperson for Evangelicals for Marriage Equality, an effort started by millennials to help evangelicals support civil gay marriages, if not marriages in churches. Justin Lee, 37, of the Gay Christian Network hosted his 11th annual conference last week in Portland, Ore., and 1,400 people attended, double the number who came last year. Lee’s friendship with Alan Chambers, the former head of the ex-gay organization Exodus International, was one of the key factors that led Chambers to apologize for the hurt his organization caused, and the organization shut down.

For everyone on all sides, the Bible itself is at stake. And, religious change takes decades, centuries even, when it happens at all. But with each passing day it is becoming harder and harder to deny that change is indeed coming. Meeks put it this way: “Every positive reforming movement in church history is first labeled heresy. Evangelicalism is way behind on this. We have a debt to pay.”​

Anyone who is pro gay, and allows them in their Church is not a Christian.

That's your opinion. I believe Jesus would be of a different one...but I've actually read what Jesus had to say about stuff.

Homosexual behavior is prohibited in Scripture (Leviticus 20:13) and was a major cause of the divine judgment against Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:4-5, 12-13). The apostle Paul listed homosexuals among “the unrighteous” who would not inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9), and declared that God’s wrath stands against such behavior, whether practiced by men or women (Romans 1:26-27).

Oh I love this subject.

• Male homosexual sex is prohibited in Leviticus- but so is:
• Mixing fabrics in clothing (19:19)
• Cursing your father or mother (punishable by death) (20:9)
• Trimming your beard (19:27)

But what was most important to Jesus? Well Jesus was pretty clear:

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

So tell me- do you love all of your neighbors? Even your homosexual neighbors?

Love yes. Does that mean we have to approve of a lifestyle, no.


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[Mr.Right]

Next will be Christian pastors who refuse to perform a gay wedding will be sued for discrimination and more. Then welcome to Nazi Germany everybody


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As evidenced by all the churches that have been sued to perform interracial or interfaith marriages, right?

COEUR D’ALENE, Idaho – Alliance Defending Freedom attorneys filed a federal lawsuit and a motion for a temporary restraining order Friday to stop officials in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, from forcing two ordained Christian ministers to perform wedding ceremonies for same-sex couples.
City officials told Donald Knapp that he and his wife Evelyn, both ordained ministers who run Hitching Post Wedding Chapel, are required to perform such ceremonies or face months in jail and/or thousands of dollars in fines. The city claims its “non-discrimination” ordinance requires the Knapps to perform same-sex wedding ceremonies now that the courts have overridden Idaho’s voter-approved constitutional amendment that affirmed marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
Coeur d’Alene officials told the Knapps privately and also publicly stated that the couple would violate the city’s public accommodations statute once same-sex marriage became legal in Idaho if they declined to perform a same-sex ceremony at their chapel. On Friday, the Knapps respectfully declined such a ceremony and now face up to 180 days in jail and up to $1,000 in fines for each day they decline to perform that ceremony.
The lawsuit came the same week that the city of Houston issued subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity.
That's just one example recently. So yeah. And to equate homosexual behavior with having black skin is an affront to the civil rights movement. Were gay people barred from restaurants? Did people force gays to the back of the bus? Did they have to go to desperate schools? Did they have to drink out of the gay water fountain? Did they endure hundreds of years in slavery? I must have slept through that part if history class. I always miss something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And there are people on this site, who have the nerve to say Christians aren't being persecuted.

 

[Seawytch]

Next will be Christian pastors who refuse to perform a gay wedding will be sued for discrimination and more. Then welcome to Nazi Germany everybody


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As evidenced by all the churches that have been sued to perform interracial or interfaith marriages, right?

COEUR D’ALENE, Idaho – Alliance Defending Freedom attorneys filed a federal lawsuit and a motion for a temporary restraining order Friday to stop officials in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, from forcing two ordained Christian ministers to perform wedding ceremonies for same-sex couples.
City officials told Donald Knapp that he and his wife Evelyn, both ordained ministers who run Hitching Post Wedding Chapel, are required to perform such ceremonies or face months in jail and/or thousands of dollars in fines. The city claims its “non-discrimination” ordinance requires the Knapps to perform same-sex wedding ceremonies now that the courts have overridden Idaho’s voter-approved constitutional amendment that affirmed marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
Coeur d’Alene officials told the Knapps privately and also publicly stated that the couple would violate the city’s public accommodations statute once same-sex marriage became legal in Idaho if they declined to perform a same-sex ceremony at their chapel. On Friday, the Knapps respectfully declined such a ceremony and now face up to 180 days in jail and up to $1,000 in fines for each day they decline to perform that ceremony.
The lawsuit came the same week that the city of Houston issued subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity.
That's just one example recently. So yeah. And to equate homosexual behavior with having black skin is an affront to the civil rights movement. Were gay people barred from restaurants? Did people force gays to the back of the bus? Did they have to go to desperate schools? Did they have to drink out of the gay water fountain? Did they endure hundreds of years in slavery? I must have slept through that part if history class. I always miss something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not a church. A for profit chapel is not a tax exempt church. Fail.

 

[dblack]

Ok. Bigots are by nature discriminatory too. Why to business owned by bigots get targeted but churches do not?

What about individuals engaged in business? (aka 'customers') Are they allowed to discriminate?

Churches are very definitely businesses. Sometimes highly profitable businesses.

Do you know the reason why we have public accommodation laws?

To target unpopular biases for suppression.

Not quite- to target historic discrimination of unpopular minority groups for suppression.

Do you know why women are included in the classes referred to in the 1964 Civil Rights Act?

The cruel irony of PA laws, and protected classes logic, is that it actually contributes to the persecution of minorities.

All evidence to the contrary.

Unpopular minorities are the only groups who will ever be targeted by such laws.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Next will be Christian pastors who refuse to perform a gay wedding will be sued for discrimination and more. Then welcome to Nazi Germany everybody


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As evidenced by all the churches that have been sued to perform interracial or interfaith marriages, right?

COEUR D’ALENE, Idaho – Alliance Defending Freedom attorneys filed a federal lawsuit and a motion for a temporary restraining order Friday to stop officials in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, from forcing two ordained Christian ministers to perform wedding ceremonies for same-sex couples.
City officials told Donald Knapp that he and his wife Evelyn, both ordained ministers who run Hitching Post Wedding Chapel, are required to perform such ceremonies or face months in jail and/or thousands of dollars in fines. The city claims its “non-discrimination” ordinance requires the Knapps to perform same-sex wedding ceremonies now that the courts have overridden Idaho’s voter-approved constitutional amendment that affirmed marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
Coeur d’Alene officials told the Knapps privately and also publicly stated that the couple would violate the city’s public accommodations statute once same-sex marriage became legal in Idaho if they declined to perform a same-sex ceremony at their chapel. On Friday, the Knapps respectfully declined such a ceremony and now face up to 180 days in jail and up to $1,000 in fines for each day they decline to perform that ceremony.
The lawsuit came the same week that the city of Houston issued subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity.
That's just one example recently. So yeah. And to equate homosexual behavior with having black skin is an affront to the civil rights movement. Were gay people barred from restaurants? Did people force gays to the back of the bus? Did they have to go to desperate schools? Did they have to drink out of the gay water fountain? Did they endure hundreds of years in slavery? I must have slept through that part if history class. I always miss something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Not a church. A for profit chapel is not a tax exempt church. Fail.

RELATIVISM ON PARADE!

LOL! I say it here... and it comes out THERE! (Be AMAAaaazed. Be VERY amaaaazed.)

 

[Syriusly]

Next will be Christian pastors who refuse to perform a gay wedding will be sued for discrimination and more. Then welcome to Nazi Germany everybody


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As evidenced by all the churches that have been sued to perform interracial or interfaith marriages, right?

COEUR D’ALENE, Idaho – Alliance Defending Freedom attorneys filed a federal lawsuit and a motion for a temporary restraining order Friday to stop officials in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, from forcing two ordained Christian ministers to perform wedding ceremonies for same-sex couples.
City officials told Donald Knapp that he and his wife Evelyn, both ordained ministers who run Hitching Post Wedding Chapel, are required to perform such ceremonies or face months in jail and/or thousands of dollars in fines. The city claims its “non-discrimination” ordinance requires the Knapps to perform same-sex wedding ceremonies now that the courts have overridden Idaho’s voter-approved constitutional amendment that affirmed marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
Coeur d’Alene officials told the Knapps privately and also publicly stated that the couple would violate the city’s public accommodations statute once same-sex marriage became legal in Idaho if they declined to perform a same-sex ceremony at their chapel. On Friday, the Knapps respectfully declined such a ceremony and now face up to 180 days in jail and up to $1,000 in fines for each day they decline to perform that ceremony.
The lawsuit came the same week that the city of Houston issued subpoenas demanding that five Christian pastors turn over sermons dealing with homosexuality and gender identity.
That's just one example recently. So yeah. And to equate homosexual behavior with having black skin is an affront to the civil rights movement. Were gay people barred from restaurants? Did people force gays to the back of the bus? Did they have to go to desperate schools? Did they have to drink out of the gay water fountain? Did they endure hundreds of years in slavery? I must have slept through that part if history class. I always miss something.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And there are people on this site, who have the nerve to say Christians aren't being persecuted.

Christians aren't being persecuted when they are being told to follow the same law as non-Christians.

 

[Syriusly]

Do you know the reason why we have public accommodation laws?

To target unpopular biases for suppression.

Not quite- to target historic discrimination of unpopular minority groups for suppression.

Do you know why women are included in the classes referred to in the 1964 Civil Rights Act?

The cruel irony of PA laws, and protected classes logic, is that it actually contributes to the persecution of minorities.

All evidence to the contrary.

Unpopular minorities are the only groups who will ever be targeted by such laws.

The claim was that PA contribute to the persecution of minorities- yet the actual evidence is that 50 years after the granddaddy of PA laws we see less persecution of minorities not more.