Should employee benefits be tax exempt?

[g5000]

Why health insurance? Is that the only benefit that should be tax exempt?

That was going to be my question. What benefits does the OP refer to?

But in general I'd say no. But then imo everyone should be covered by HC insurance. The devil of course is in the details.

Not everyone needs health insurance. When I was a young man I didn't have any and didn't need anything. My grandfather didn't go to a doctor one time for 60 years he didn't need it either. In addition, a lot of people prefer to go to naturopaths and homeopaths and other alternative health providers who are not part of the medical insurance panels.

Homeopathy is bunk.

I can appreciate that's your opinion, and I'm somewhat inclined to agree. However, a lot of people think otherwise, and I'm not sure that legislating this kind of thing is really what we want to do.

I think Republicans should totally run on ending tax exemptions for healthcare and getting rid of the mortgage interest deduction.

The mortgage interest deduction adds about 27 percent to the cost of housing. It's a YUGE ripoff.

You should ask yourself who benefits from houses costing more.

Realtor, builders, and bankers.

Guess how much the real estate lobby spends on campaign contributions and lobbying each year.

And forget about banking! Shit. They are the biggest lobbiests of all.

 

[Desperado]

Should employee benefits be tax exempt?
They used to be exempt, but the government wanted more money to give away as foreign aid so they made employee benefits taxable What I find amazing is the number of idiots here that want the government to take more of your paycheck.
Why do feel the government can spend your money better than you can?

 

[g5000]

Tax expenditures (exemptions, credits, deductions) are a massive government social welfare program. It is deliberate interference which grossly distorts the free market.

No right-minded conservative would EVER support this huge $1.4 trillion annual expense which drives up tax rates and government borrowing.

How is it that keeping your own money is a social welfare program?

Oh, wait! I forgot you are a libtard and do not understand freedom.

I will use small words, just for you.

If the government needs ten dollars from me and you, it would charge us each five dollars.

If the government then gave me back two dollars for breeding children, it will have to get that two dollars it gave back to me out of your hide, or it will have to borrow it.

The way the government would get that extra two dollars from you is by raising the tax rate.

And that is exactly what it does.

So every tax deduction, exemption and credit is paid for by higher tax rates on everyone, and borrowing the rest.

You have been brainwashed into believing that tax deduction is YOUR money, but it is actually money that was stolen from other people or borrowed.

The government wants to encourage people to "breed children" as Children are our future, and the government is an ongoing enterprise.

Yes, people who are dependent on the government always have a rationalization for government interference in our lives.


The government punishes you with higher taxes for not breeding. The government punishes you with higher taxes for not doing all kinds of consumer behavior. You are punished for not buying the right products. Houses, energy, refrigerators, on and on.

How can any conservative defend that kind of massive interference in our lives and the free market?

Because of this, it was not a big jump to punish you with higher taxes for not buying the right kind of health insurance.

 

[g5000]

If you and I earn identical incomes, and I have kids and a mortgage, and you don't, you pay WAY more taxes than I do.

This is insane.

 

[bendog]

For what it's worth Dblack, I don't think people and corporations should have the deductions we do. G5000 comments on the HC expenditure for employers, but there's also expedited amoritization, interest deductions (they sort of build houses too), other deductions that just aren't the same as individuals paying taxes or investment losses. But all that's another story.

My objection isn't ideological but rather based on the economic notion that anything that distorts a market setting value is a negative for the economy. The one exception, imo, are things like min wage and "forcing" people with capital to pay taxes for things like education and workers' healthcare. And the reason I'd make an exception is simple necessity. The option is children begging and being sex workers and more fundraising in convenience stores for children needing various medical treatment.

but I still think the thread is too broad for reasonable discussion.

 

[dblack]

... but I still think the thread is too broad for reasonable discussion.

I meant it to be broad. Rather than talk about the merits of a specific benefit, I'm interested in the way discriminatory taxation is used to manipulate society. I think it's a corruption of the taxation power and an abuse of government.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Tax expenditures (exemptions, credits, deductions) are a massive government social welfare program. It is deliberate interference which grossly distorts the free market.

No right-minded conservative would EVER support this huge $1.4 trillion annual expense which drives up tax rates and government borrowing.

How is it that keeping your own money is a social welfare program?

Oh, wait! I forgot you are a libtard and do not understand freedom.

I will use small words, just for you.

If the government needs ten dollars from me and you, it would charge us each five dollars.

If the government then gave me back two dollars for breeding children (classic Skinnerism), it will have to get that two dollars it gave back to me out of your hide, or it will have to borrow it.

The way the government would get that extra two dollars from you is by raising the tax rate.

So I would be paying three dollars, and you would be paying seven.

From my perspective, I could say, "Woo hoo! I got to keep MY money." But from where you are sitting, I stole two dollars from you.

And that is exactly what our government does. Tax expenditures are pure theft, pure wealth redistribution, pure government behavioral control, picking winners and losers. No right minded conservative would EVER support that bullshit.

So every tax deduction, exemption and credit is paid for by higher tax rates on everyone, and borrowing the rest.

You have been brainwashed into believing that tax deduction is YOUR money, but it is actually money that was stolen from other people or borrowed.

Thank you for explaining, you mental reject! You cannot even figure out the system you are talking about which has been around for years.

Less money paid in taxes means I have more money to buy things with, causing people to be employed to provide those goods and services. Apparently you failed econ 101, if you ever even took it!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

That was going to be my question. What benefits does the OP refer to?

But in general I'd say no. But then imo everyone should be covered by HC insurance. The devil of course is in the details.

Not everyone needs health insurance. When I was a young man I didn't have any and didn't need anything. My grandfather didn't go to a doctor one time for 60 years he didn't need it either. In addition, a lot of people prefer to go to naturopaths and homeopaths and other alternative health providers who are not part of the medical insurance panels.

Homeopathy is bunk.

I can appreciate that's your opinion, and I'm somewhat inclined to agree. However, a lot of people think otherwise, and I'm not sure that legislating this kind of thing is really what we want to do.

I think Republicans should totally run on ending tax exemptions for healthcare and getting rid of the mortgage interest deduction.

The mortgage interest deduction adds about 27 percent to the cost of housing. It's a YUGE ripoff.

You should ask yourself who benefits from houses costing more.

Realtor, builders, and bankers.

Guess how much the real estate lobby spends on campaign contributions and lobbying each year.

And forget about banking! Shit. They are the biggest lobbiests of all.

Lobbiests? WTF, over?

The vast majority of Americans no longer take the mortgage interest reduction because the standard deduction has been raised high enough to eclipse the advantage of taking it. More bullshit mental meanders from a dumbass!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

If you and I earn identical incomes, and I have kids and a mortgage, and you don't, you pay WAY more taxes than I do.

This is insane.

No, you would not pay less unless your mortgage interest is more than the standard deduction as I previously pointed out. As far as kids go, you would pay less because you have kids and are providing future workers.

 

[OnePercenter]

Tax expenditures pay for the fire department, a government service you don't need until you really do. And they show-up 24 hours per day, 365 days per year!

Uh...you don't know what tax expenditures are, clearly.

A fire department doesn't derive public tax monies allocated through tax money expenditures?

My fire department does not.

What city do you live?

Try that again in English, and I will still not answer. You don't need to know.

You won't answer because it will prove you a liar.

 

[OnePercenter]

I don't think income should be taxed at all, but as long as it is we shouldn't allow government to use it as a tool to manipulate society.

What should be taxed to provide municipal services?

 

[OnePercenter]

If you and I earn identical incomes, and I have kids and a mortgage, and you don't, you pay WAY more taxes than I do.

This is insane.

You don't make enough to deduct mortgage interest.

 

[g5000]

If you and I earn identical incomes, and I have kids and a mortgage, and you don't, you pay WAY more taxes than I do.

This is insane.

No, you would not pay less unless your mortgage interest is more than the standard deduction as I previously pointed out. As far as kids go, you would pay less because you have kids and are providing future workers.

Like I said, everyone has their rationalization for being looters. Everyone has their hand out.

 

[g5000]

Not everyone needs health insurance. When I was a young man I didn't have any and didn't need anything. My grandfather didn't go to a doctor one time for 60 years he didn't need it either. In addition, a lot of people prefer to go to naturopaths and homeopaths and other alternative health providers who are not part of the medical insurance panels.

Homeopathy is bunk.

I can appreciate that's your opinion, and I'm somewhat inclined to agree. However, a lot of people think otherwise, and I'm not sure that legislating this kind of thing is really what we want to do.

I think Republicans should totally run on ending tax exemptions for healthcare and getting rid of the mortgage interest deduction.

The mortgage interest deduction adds about 27 percent to the cost of housing. It's a YUGE ripoff.

You should ask yourself who benefits from houses costing more.

Realtor, builders, and bankers.

Guess how much the real estate lobby spends on campaign contributions and lobbying each year.

And forget about banking! Shit. They are the biggest lobbiests of all.

Lobbiests? WTF, over?

The vast majority of Americans no longer take the mortgage interest reduction because the standard deduction has been raised high enough to eclipse the advantage of taking it. More bullshit mental meanders from a dumbass!

The standard deduction is just another form of tax expenditure which causes all of our tax rates to be higher.

You are being seriously conned.

 

[g5000]

Let's say the government needs 20 dollars from you and you earn 100 dollars. The tax rate would have to be 20 percent.

But if the government allowed a "standard deduction" of 10 percent, then the government would only be taxing 90 dollars of your income.

So in order to get that 20 dollars out of you, the government would have to raise the tax rate to 22.22 percent.

Like a dumbass, when you filled out your taxes, you would take the 10 percent deduction and tell yourself, "Woo hoo! I get to keep my money!"

But everyone is paying a higher tax rate because of it. The government is still getting its 20 bucks from you.


Time to wake up, folks.

 

[OnePercenter]

... but I still think the thread is too broad for reasonable discussion.

I meant it to be broad. Rather than talk about the merits of a specific benefit, I'm interested in the way discriminatory taxation is used to manipulate society. I think it's a corruption of the taxation power and an abuse of government.

Discriminatory? You pay a higher percentage of your income in taxes than wealthy persons do.

 

[g5000]

Now let's say the government raised its revenue needs to 30 bucks from each of us, because a majority of dipshits voted for the government to give hookers free puppies.

If you earn 100 dollars, the tax rate would have to be 30 percent to get your "fair share" out of you.

But let's chuck in that 10 dollar "standard deduction".

Now the tax rate would have to be raised from 30 percent to 33.33 percent.

That's how our system works.

It is further complicated when other tax expenditures are added in. Breeding, large mortgages, the right kind of refrigerators, employee health insurance exemptions, etc.

These add up to $1.4 trillion the government has to make up for by raising tax rates further and further.

Eventually, tax rates became so high because of this, the American people started complaining. So the tax rates were raised just so high, and then the rest of that $1.4 trillion has to be borrowed every fricking year.

And people earning identical incomes are paying radically different tax amounts, which is not just insane but also grossly unjust. This is massive government interference in our lives.

The whole problem could be solved by simply eliminating tax expenditures, and drastically lowering tax rates, and everyone earning identical incomes would pay identical taxes.

 

[g5000]

Bob earns 100 dollars and gets to deduct 35 dollars because he's a breeder with a mortgage and an energy-saving refrigerator and he uses solar panels. Bob is a model example of government behavioral control.

So Bob is taxed on 65 dollars of his income. At the going tax rate of 33.33 percent, Bob owes the government $21.66.

Biff also earns 100, but he only gets to deduct 10 dollars because he drives an SUV, has no kids, and lives in a house he scrimped and saved for and paid off, so he has no mortgage.

The banking industry hates scrimpers and savers, and so they have bribed our politicians to punish the fuck out of those people.

So Biff is taxed on 90 dollars of his income. At the going tax rate of 33.33 percent, Biff owes the government $30.


Two guys earning identical incomes. Yet Biff is paying 138 percent more in taxes than Bob.

Biff had to pay a lot more taxes to pay for Bob's deductions. No matter how you slice it, that's theft and government wealth redistribution.


That's the bullshit scheme we are living under, folks.

 

[Polishprince]

Let's say the government needs 20 dollars from you and you earn 100 dollars. The tax rate would have to be 20 percent.

But if the government allowed a "standard deduction" of 10 percent, then the government would only be taxing 90 dollars of your income.

So in order to get that 20 dollars out of you, the government would have to raise the tax rate to 22.22 percent.

Like a dumbass, when you filled out your taxes, you would take the 10 percent deduction and tell yourself, "Woo hoo! I get to keep my money!"

But everyone is paying a higher tax rate because of it. The government is still getting its 20 bucks from you.


Time to wake up, folks.

Ideally, IMHO, a Flat Tax is probably the best idea.

Everyone pays exactly the same regardless of what they make or don't make.

If the federal budget is $1 Trillion, just divide that by the number of people and that's what you owe.

No accountants needed, no figuring out your basis or even counting your money if you don't want.

Just get your bill, cut a check and drop it in the mail by 15 April.

 

[g5000]

Let's say the government needs 20 dollars from you and you earn 100 dollars. The tax rate would have to be 20 percent.

But if the government allowed a "standard deduction" of 10 percent, then the government would only be taxing 90 dollars of your income.

So in order to get that 20 dollars out of you, the government would have to raise the tax rate to 22.22 percent.

Like a dumbass, when you filled out your taxes, you would take the 10 percent deduction and tell yourself, "Woo hoo! I get to keep my money!"

But everyone is paying a higher tax rate because of it. The government is still getting its 20 bucks from you.


Time to wake up, folks.

Ideally, IMHO, a Flat Tax is probably the best idea.

Everyone pays exactly the same regardless of what they make or don't make.

If the federal budget is $1 Trillion, just divide that by the number of people and that's what you owe.

No accountants needed, no figuring out your basis or even counting your money if you don't want.

Just get your bill, cut a check and drop it in the mail by 15 April.

I prefer we abolish the income tax altogether and enact the Fair Tax.

However, it does not matter what kind of tax we have if we don't abolish tax expenditures once and for all. Otherwise the same problem will happen. Higher tax rates to offset exemptions, credits, and deductions.

In fact, my post you quoted applies equally to a flat tax as it does to a progressive tax scheme.