Should Jerusalem be made an international city?

[Saigon]

i agree, and the muslims hate anything and everything not muslim.

Some do, yes.

So is their hatred different from your own?

yep, i dont have a faction out trying to kill everything and anything not me all over the world. I dont follow something that calls for the deaths of anything not me. I dont have terrorist training camps, I dont raise children to kill, i dont blow up innocent people or use children as human shields. I dont have leaders making out death fatwas.

I also dont support anyone who does.

I would call that a huge difference.

I wouldn't call that a difference at all.

The difference between blind racial hatred and violence is paper thin. Blind racial hatred is the driving force behind most terrorism, after all.

The fact is that you would, and do, support violence against innocent people based on their religion and ethnicity. Most people who support terrorism do so because they consider it justified. They may seek to avoid the word 'terror' and instead call it 'revenge' or 'a police action' or any other term that makes violence against civilians sound civilised. They consider the other side deserve it.

In this, your hatred and that of some Palestinians are exactly the same. Their words are your words. I've heard Palestinians make comments so many times that it becomes hard to tell the statements apart.

Anyone who supports violence against innocent people supports terrorism.

Anyone who abandons the concepts of innocent until proven guilty, the right to a fair trial, the concept of inidivial responsibility (as opposed to collective punishment) because it is more conveniant to hate an entire people will support terror. They may just call it another name.

The single most important factor for anyone wanting to find real peace for Israel is to block out the voices of people, be they Jewish, Muslim or American, who are motivated by hatred.

 

[Saigon]

Jroc -

I base my views on the reality of living in Israel.

I could give a shit.... I base mine on being a Jew, one of only 13 to 14 million left in the world after all the slaughter ..You feel me?

Yes, but I also "feel" how vital it is that no single group on this earth dictate terms to others.

I see no contradiction in unilaterally defending the right of Jews to live in peace in Israel, and the right of Palestinian Arabs to do the same.

 

[syrenn]

then you will be blocking out all of the muslims form the peace process.

simple as that.

 

[Saigon]

There can be no peace treaty, and thus no peace, without representation from Palestinians.

I am constantly amazed how some Americans seem to have swallowed the line that Palestinians are a bunch of fire-breathing lunatics, and not a normal, everyday population more concerned about jobs and schools and crime than they are about blowing anyone up. The overwhelming majority of Palestinians are no threat to anyone. They are, however, fairly pissed off by living in appalling conditions.

That is the reality on the ground - albeit a little less sexy than the garbage sprayed around on crypto-fascist blogs.

 

[Jroc]

Jroc -

I base my views on the reality of living in Israel.

I could give a shit.... I base mine on being a Jew, one of only 13 to 14 million left in the world after all the slaughter ..You feel me?

Yes, but I also "feel" how vital it is that no single group on this earth dictate terms to others.

I see no contradiction in unilaterally defending the right of Jews to live in peace in Israel, and the right of Palestinian Arabs to do the same.

We're dealing with the Arab muslims as a whole, not just certain Arabs here or certain Arabs there. Like I said your opinion is not based on any reality. Jews shouldn't leave their fate in the hands of unrealistic ideologues like yourself...Sorry your intentions may be pure, but it doesn't really mean much in the big scheme of things

 

[Saigon]

Jroc -

Like I said your opinion is not based on any reality.

Right - so living in Israel is not an introduction into the reality of the ME, but living in the US is?

My thinking here is ideological - but only to the extent that Israel needs to reach back to the ideology upon which the state is founded in order to find its future. Israel has lost itself, spiritually and emotionally. It has become self-satisfied and arrogant - largely by being fed welfare cash from the US for too long.

 

[Jroc]

Jroc -

Like I said your opinion is not based on any reality.

Right - so living in Israel is not an introduction into the reality of the ME, but living in the US is?

My thinking here is ideological - but only to the extent that Israel needs to reach back to the ideology upon which the state is founded in order to find its future. Israel has lost itself, spiritually and emotionally. It has become self-satisfied and arrogant - largely by being fed welfare cash from the US for too long.

Of course it is. our ancestral homeland Israel was reestablished as a place were Jews no longer haft to rely on others for our survival, we are strong there thank G-d....Your ideological opinion not withstanding

 

[pbel]

I could give a shit.... I base mine on being a Jew, one of only 13 to 14 million left in the world after all the slaughter ..You feel me?

Yes, but I also "feel" how vital it is that no single group on this earth dictate terms to others.

I see no contradiction in unilaterally defending the right of Jews to live in peace in Israel, and the right of Palestinian Arabs to do the same.

We're dealing with the Arab muslims as a whole, not just certain Arabs here or certain Arabs there. Like I said your opinion is not based on any reality. Jews shouldn't leave their fate in the hands of unrealistic ideologues like yourself...Sorry your intentions may be pure, but it doesn't really mean much in the big scheme of things

Jroc…its not the Jews that the Muslims hate, it’s the invader to their lands that they hate. After all, Israel was created by Western Colonial Powers at the UN. Ironically, Jews have had greater luck living with Muslims than Christian Lands.

I too understand the bitterness of World persecution of Jews. That’s why Israel exists…Israel needs Legitimacy in the eyes of her neighbors. A peace deal sanctioned by the Arab League and UN would go a long way.

 

[Hossfly]

Yes, but I also "feel" how vital it is that no single group on this earth dictate terms to others.

I see no contradiction in unilaterally defending the right of Jews to live in peace in Israel, and the right of Palestinian Arabs to do the same.

We're dealing with the Arab muslims as a whole, not just certain Arabs here or certain Arabs there. Like I said your opinion is not based on any reality. Jews shouldn't leave their fate in the hands of unrealistic ideologues like yourself...Sorry your intentions may be pure, but it doesn't really mean much in the big scheme of things

Jroc…its not the Jews that the Muslims hate, it’s the invader to their lands that they hate. After all, Israel was created by Western Colonial Powers at the UN. Ironically, Jews have had greater luck living with Muslims than Christian Lands.

I too understand the bitterness of World persecution of Jews. That’s why Israel exists…Israel needs Legitimacy in the eyes of her neighbors. A peace deal sanctioned by the Arab League and UN would go a long way.

Legitimacy? Makes no difference. Israel is still following the instructions given to Moses. Those instructions have never been rescinded or modified. Some people just don't get it.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Yes, but I also "feel" how vital it is that no single group on this earth dictate terms to others.

I see no contradiction in unilaterally defending the right of Jews to live in peace in Israel, and the right of Palestinian Arabs to do the same.

We're dealing with the Arab muslims as a whole, not just certain Arabs here or certain Arabs there. Like I said your opinion is not based on any reality. Jews shouldn't leave their fate in the hands of unrealistic ideologues like yourself...Sorry your intentions may be pure, but it doesn't really mean much in the big scheme of things

Jroc…its not the Jews that the Muslims hate, it’s the invader to their lands that they hate. After all, Israel was created by Western Colonial Powers at the UN. Ironically, Jews have had greater luck living with Muslims than Christian Lands.

I too understand the bitterness of World persecution of Jews. That’s why Israel exists…Israel needs Legitimacy in the eyes of her neighbors. A peace deal sanctioned by the Arab League and UN would go a long way.

It's not landS...it's one land, and it's less than 1% of the Middle East.

 

[pbel]

We're dealing with the Arab muslims as a whole, not just certain Arabs here or certain Arabs there. Like I said your opinion is not based on any reality. Jews shouldn't leave their fate in the hands of unrealistic ideologues like yourself...Sorry your intentions may be pure, but it doesn't really mean much in the big scheme of things

Jroc…its not the Jews that the Muslims hate, it’s the invader to their lands that they hate. After all, Israel was created by Western Colonial Powers at the UN. Ironically, Jews have had greater luck living with Muslims than Christian Lands.

I too understand the bitterness of World persecution of Jews. That’s why Israel exists…Israel needs Legitimacy in the eyes of her neighbors. A peace deal sanctioned by the Arab League and UN would go a long way.

Legitimacy? Makes no difference. Israel is still following the instructions given to Moses. Those instructions have never been rescinded or modified. Some people just don't get it.

Oh! Horse Shi'ite! Do you really believe that modern Man should believe in Iron Age Myththology to adjudicate International relarions? People are dying every day and you quote the authority of an exiled Egyptian Prince who took the Hebrews with him?

Gawd, save us...

 

[Hossfly]

Jroc…its not the Jews that the Muslims hate, it’s the invader to their lands that they hate. After all, Israel was created by Western Colonial Powers at the UN. Ironically, Jews have had greater luck living with Muslims than Christian Lands.

I too understand the bitterness of World persecution of Jews. That’s why Israel exists…Israel needs Legitimacy in the eyes of her neighbors. A peace deal sanctioned by the Arab League and UN would go a long way.

Legitimacy? Makes no difference. Israel is still following the instructions given to Moses. Those instructions have never been rescinded or modified. Some people just don't get it.

Oh! Horse Shi'ite! Do you really believe that modern Man should believe in Iron Age Myththology to adjudicate International relarions? People are dying every day and you quote the authority of an exiled Egyptian Prince who took the Hebrews with him?

Gawd, save us...

Time changes nothing, Infidel.

 

[pbel]

We're dealing with the Arab muslims as a whole, not just certain Arabs here or certain Arabs there. Like I said your opinion is not based on any reality. Jews shouldn't leave their fate in the hands of unrealistic ideologues like yourself...Sorry your intentions may be pure, but it doesn't really mean much in the big scheme of things

Jroc…its not the Jews that the Muslims hate, it’s the invader to their lands that they hate. After all, Israel was created by Western Colonial Powers at the UN. Ironically, Jews have had greater luck living with Muslims than Christian Lands.

I too understand the bitterness of World persecution of Jews. That’s why Israel exists…Israel needs Legitimacy in the eyes of her neighbors. A peace deal sanctioned by the Arab League and UN would go a long way.

It's not landS...it's one land, and it's less than 1% of the Middle East.

Look, International Law, through the UN gave Israel legitimacy as a State...Of course the Arabs refused to adopt the Resolution was in essense a Land Taking by the Western Colonial Powers.

All of Israel's conquests since the 48 war have no blessings or legitimacy from anyone on earth. Not even America.

Share Jerusalem and go back to the re-negotiated 67 borders. Create Justice or war. Its Israel's move.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

The "1967 borders" were not borders, they were lines created by military conquest, and they were not recognized by anyone.

Sorry to mess up your "logic" with facts, there, pebbles.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Share Jerusalem and go back to the re-negotiated 67 borders...or war. Its Israel's move."

War.

And the United States will have Israel's back while it fights that war.

Pumping arms and munitions into Israel to compensate for expenditures.

Providing intelligence and diplomatic cover and logistical support as needed.

And, as a matter of last resort, ready to engage as an active combatant on the Israeli side in the extremely unlikely event that they get into trouble and begin to lose.

We've got their back.

There was some doubt that that might be the case, once upon a time, right up to 9-11.

Since then, in choosing sides between the Israelis and their neighbors, there is no doubt.

 

[pbel]

The "1967 borders" were not borders, they were lines created by military conquest, and they were not recognized by anyone.

Sorry to mess up your "logic" with facts, there, pebbles.

All of Israel's conquests since the 48 war have no blessings or legitimacy from anyone on earth. Not even America.

 

[toastman]

Jroc…its not the Jews that the Muslims hate, it’s the invader to their lands that they hate. After all, Israel was created by Western Colonial Powers at the UN. Ironically, Jews have had greater luck living with Muslims than Christian Lands.

I too understand the bitterness of World persecution of Jews. That’s why Israel exists…Israel needs Legitimacy in the eyes of her neighbors. A peace deal sanctioned by the Arab League and UN would go a long way.

It's not landS...it's one land, and it's less than 1% of the Middle East.

Look, International Law, through the UN gave Israel legitimacy as a State...Of course the Arabs refused to adopt the Resolution was in essense a Land Taking by the Western Colonial Powers.

All of Israel's conquests since the 48 war have no blessings or legitimacy from anyone on earth. Not even America.

Share Jerusalem and go back to the re-negotiated 67 borders. Create Justice or war. Its Israel's move.

Not gonna happen !

 

[pbel]

It's not landS...it's one land, and it's less than 1% of the Middle East.

Look, International Law, through the UN gave Israel legitimacy as a State...Of course the Arabs refused to adopt the Resolution was in essense a Land Taking by the Western Colonial Powers.

All of Israel's conquests since the 48 war have no blessings or legitimacy from anyone on earth. Not even America.

Share Jerusalem and go back to the re-negotiated 67 borders. Create Justice or war. Its Israel's move.

Not gonna happen !

You are probably correct, whoever concedes jurisdiction of Jerusalem would probably be discredited by their-own people, or worse...That's why Jerusalem must be shared sovereignty...

I wish they could share the Mosque and turn half of it into a Jewish Temple. So much hate, and emotion about Biblical Iron Age Myths tearing people apart.


If Israel refuses to join the UN Resolution granted to the Palestinians an observer state to the 67 borders; expect the present intellectual Boycotts of leading scientists like Prof. Hawkins to lead to Economic and Military Sanctions.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Look, International Law, through the UN gave Israel legitimacy as a State...Of course the Arabs refused to adopt the Resolution was in essense a Land Taking by the Western Colonial Powers.

All of Israel's conquests since the 48 war have no blessings or legitimacy from anyone on earth. Not even America.

Share Jerusalem and go back to the re-negotiated 67 borders. Create Justice or war. Its Israel's move.

Not gonna happen !

You are probably correct, whoever concedes jurisdiction of Jerusalem would probably be discredited by their-own people, or worse...That's why Jerusalem must be shared sovereignty...

I wish they could share the Mosque and turn half of it into a Jewish Temple. So much hate, and emotion about Biblical Iron Age Myths tearing people apart.


If Israel refuses to join the UN Resolution granted to the Palestinians an observer state to the 67 borders; expect the present intellectual Boycotts of leading scientists like Prof. Hawkins to lead to Economic and Military Sanctions.

Not going to happen, but thanks for your concern.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

"...Share Jerusalem and go back to the re-negotiated 67 borders...or war. Its Israel's move."

War.

And the United States will have Israel's back while it fights that war.

Pumping arms and munitions into Israel to compensate for expenditures.

Providing intelligence and diplomatic cover and logistical support as needed.

And, as a matter of last resort, ready to engage as an active combatant on the Israeli side in the extremely unlikely event that they get into trouble and begin to lose.

We've got their back.

There was some doubt that that might be the case, once upon a time, right up to 9-11.

Since then, in choosing sides between the Israelis and their neighbors, there is no doubt.

Thanks for your friendship, Kondor.