Should Jerusalem be made an international city?

[Hyrcanus]

Muslims also consider Jerusalem a Holy City because like Jews, Abraham is their Patriarch.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Muslims also consider Jerusalem a Holy City because like Jews, Abraham is their Patriarch.

Nonsense. Muslims never claim that they want Jerusalem because of their connection to Abraham.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

I don't know where you are getting 5% from, but the point is, if you think that Israel is going to start with the "1967 lines" and then engage in minor land swaps, you're kidding yourself. Israel is under no obligation to accept the intellectually dishonest claim that those lines have any legitimacy whatsoever.

They're not obliged to do anything.

They can continue to rule over millions of Palestinians forever if they like.

But eventually they will have more people under their control that are not citizens than those who are citizens, and that's called Apartheid.

So the "Palestinians" don't have their own elections and their own government?

 

[Sweet_Caroline]

One of these days people will come to realize it is not about land but the Pals want the Jews off all the land and want it all for themselves. The name 'Israel' is already wiped out on their books and maps. They don't even mention the word. They chant "From the River to the Sea, Palestine Will be Free."

 

[Kondor3]

Jerusalem is only 'sacred' to the Muslims because...

1. somebody way-back in time, smoking FAR too much hashish, invented a pretty fairy tale that Muhammed ascended into Heaven from the hill of the ruins of The Temple of Solomon, and the fairy-tale became part of the mythology of Islam over time.

2. the Muslims 'bulldozed' the ruins of The Temple Mount and built a Mosque on top of it; wanting to (a) commemorate the Site of the Ascension and (b) demonstrate in no uncertain terms that Islam (b1) derived from Judaism and (b2) superseded Judaism.

...but this all has one drawback.

The Dome of the Rock and Mosque are built upon the ruins of Solomon's Temple and its sacred environs.

The Muslims destroyed what was left of the Temple Mount and prevented its rebuilding by rudely and arrogantly taking over such a historic and sacred spot for their own selfish purposes.

Take away the fairy-tale of Muhammed's Ascension and the Dome of the Rock, and Jerusalem is nothing to the Muslims; other than the place in which their self-declared Mothership Religion (Judaism) first consolidated and thrived.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Nonsense. Muslims never claim that they want Jerusalem because of their connection to Abraham.

That is a lie.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Jerusalem is only 'sacred' to the Muslims because...

1. somebody way-back in time, smoking FAR too much hashish, invented a pretty fairy tale that Muhammed ascended into Heaven from the hill of the ruins of The Temple of Solomon, and the fairy-tale became part of the mythology of Islam over time.

2. the Muslims 'bulldozed' the ruins of The Temple Mount and built a Mosque on top of it; wanting to (a) commemorate the Site of the Ascension and (b) demonstrate in no uncertain terms that Islam (b1) derived from Judaism and (b2) superseded Judaism.

...but this all has one drawback.

The Dome of the Rock Mosque is built upon the ruins of Solomon's Temple and its sacred environs.

The Muslims destroyed what was left of the Temple Mount and prevented its rebuilding by rudely and arrogantly taking over such a historic and sacred spot for their own selfish purposes.

Take away the fairy-tale of Muhammed's Ascension and the Dome of the Rock, and Jerusalem is nothing to the Muslims; other than the place in which their self-declared Mothership Religion (Judaism) first consolidated and thrived.

Nothing of the Jewish Temple remained when the Muslims took control of Temple Mount. The Christians destroyed it all.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Nonsense. Muslims never claim that they want Jerusalem because of their connection to Abraham.

That is a lie.

No, its not. The Arabs don't deny that Abraham is the Patriarch of the Jewish faith, so to base their claim to Jerusalem on Abraham would be to acknowledge the Jew's claim as well. The Arabs base their claim to Jerusalem on the Koran passage that refers to "the farthest mosque," which they now claim was in Jerusalem.

 

[Hyrcanus]

No, its not. The Arabs don't deny that Abraham is the Patriarch of the Jewish faith, so to base their claim to Jerusalem on Abraham would be to acknowledge the Jew's claim as well. The Arabs base their claim to Jerusalem on the Koran passage that refers to "the farthest mosque," which they now claim was in Jerusalem.

Abraham (Ibrahim in Arabic) is a Patriarch of the Arabs, as he was the father of Ishmael.

 

[HistoryBefore67]

No, its not. The Arabs don't deny that Abraham is the Patriarch of the Jewish faith, so to base their claim to Jerusalem on Abraham would be to acknowledge the Jew's claim as well. The Arabs base their claim to Jerusalem on the Koran passage that refers to "the farthest mosque," which they now claim was in Jerusalem.

Abraham (Ibrahim in Arabic) is a Patriarch of the Arabs, as he was the father of Ishmael.

Yes, I'm aware of that.

I didn't say that the Muslims lack a connection to Abraham. What I said is that their claim to Jerusalem is never articulated as being based upon Abraham.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Yes, I'm aware of that.

I didn't say that the Muslims lack a connection to Abraham. What I said is that their claim to Jerusalem is never articulated as being based upon Abraham.

Islamization of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jerusalem in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clearly, Jerusalem is important to Islam.

Not as important as Mecca or Medina, but still very imporant.

It was the first city that Muslims were ordered to pray towards by Muhammed.

 

[Kondor3]

"...Nothing of the Jewish Temple remained when the Muslims took control of Temple Mount. The Christians destroyed it all."

Someone with a more scholarly understanding than I, of the Temple Mount, will have to firm this up or contradict it. I have been operating under the impression that the Romans pulled it down in 70 A.D. and that the Temple Complex (temple, courtyards, etc.) lay in ruins until the Muslims swept it clean prior to beginning their building projects. I am also uncertain as to which Christians you are talking about, in pulling down the Temple structures or ruins.

 

[Kondor3]

Yes, I'm aware of that.

I didn't say that the Muslims lack a connection to Abraham. What I said is that their claim to Jerusalem is never articulated as being based upon Abraham.

Islamization of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jerusalem in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clearly, Jerusalem is important to Islam.

Not as important as Mecca or Medina, but still very imporant.

It was the first city that Muslims were ordered to pray towards by Muhammed.

Hell, the Christians have Rome, and the Muslims have Mecca and Medinah. The Jews started it all. Let 'em have their original one back. Two (Mecca and Medinah) are enough for one religion. Mustn't be greedy. ;-)

 

[HistoryBefore67]

Yes, I'm aware of that.

I didn't say that the Muslims lack a connection to Abraham. What I said is that their claim to Jerusalem is never articulated as being based upon Abraham.

Islamization of Jerusalem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jerusalem in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Clearly, Jerusalem is important to Islam.

Not as important as Mecca or Medina, but still very imporant.

It was the first city that Muslims were ordered to pray towards by Muhammed.

Its never mentioned in the Koran.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Hell, the Christians have Rome, and the Muslims have Mecca and Medinah. The Jews started it all. Let 'em have their original one back. Two (Mecca and Hedinah) are enough for one religion. Mustn't be greedy. ;-)

Right, like the capital of the Roman Catholic Church is sacred to ALL Christians.

 

[Kondor3]

Hell, the Christians have Rome, and the Muslims have Mecca and Medinah. The Jews started it all. Let 'em have their original one back. Two (Mecca and Hedinah) are enough for one religion. Mustn't be greedy. ;-)

Right, like the capital of the Roman Catholic Church is sacred to ALL Christians.

Nope, but Rome is the wellspring for Christian expansion in Western Europe; it is the Mothership from which all Western Christianity is derived, by varying degrees of separation.

Just as Constantinople was (is), as the wellspring for Christian expansion in parts of Eastern Europe and Asia Minor and the Russias.

And none of this distracts me from the idea that the Muslims already have two (2) Holy Cities... Mecca and Medinah... and that the Jews, as the 'originators' of all of the Faiths of the Book... are entitled to one of their own... again... after all that waiting and suffering.

The Muslims already have two. They shouldn't begrudge the Jews their old one back. Demanding three is just greedy.

 

[Hyrcanus]

Nope, but Rome is the wellspring for Christian expansion in Western Europe; it is the Mothership from which all Western Christianity is derived, by varying degrees of separation.

Just as Constantinople was (is), as the wellspring for Christian expansion in parts of Eastern Europe and Asia Minor and the Russias.

And none of this distracts me from the idea that the Muslims already have two (2) Holy Cities... Mecca and Medinah... and that the Jews, as the 'originators' of all of the Faiths of the Book... are entitled to one of their own... again... after all that waiting and suffering.

The Muslims already have two. They shouldn't begrudge the Jews their old one back. Demanding three is just greedy.

Why can't Jews, Muslims, and Christians SHARE a city that is holy to all three faiths?

 

[Jroc]

Throughout the period of Muslim expansion, the religious cites of other faiths were routinely "discovered" to be the location where some previously unknown event in Islamic history occurred. Mosques were built on the sites of many churches, synagogues and other locations with religous significance.

How can anyone fail to see what this is really about?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkMolLriAkQ]No Mosque at Ground Zero - YouTube[/ame]

 

[freedombecki]

Did you know that Jerusalem (al-Quds) is not mentioned ONE in the Kuran

Who said anything about the Kuran?

According to some Islamic scholars, the rock is the spot[18] from which Muhammad ascended to Heaven accompanied by the angel Gabriel. Further, Muhammad was taken here by Gabriel to pray with Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.[19] After Muhammad's return, he called all who would believe him to join with him and be Muslim.[18]

Source

If it's not in the Koran, it doesn't count.
There is no Muslim theology besides the Koran.

Yep.

 

[Kondor3]

Nope, but Rome is the wellspring for Christian expansion in Western Europe; it is the Mothership from which all Western Christianity is derived, by varying degrees of separation.

Just as Constantinople was (is), as the wellspring for Christian expansion in parts of Eastern Europe and Asia Minor and the Russias.

And none of this distracts me from the idea that the Muslims already have two (2) Holy Cities... Mecca and Medinah... and that the Jews, as the 'originators' of all of the Faiths of the Book... are entitled to one of their own... again... after all that waiting and suffering.

The Muslims already have two. They shouldn't begrudge the Jews their old one back. Demanding three is just greedy.

Why can't Jews, Muslims, and Christians SHARE a city that is holy to all three faiths?

Because the Muslims already have two, and the Christians already have one, and nobody is asking them to give theirs back. Why should the Jews be the only ones to get screwed out of theirs? Unless, of course, we can propose that Rome, Mecca and Medinah all be made International Cities, under control of the UN, in-tandem with such a transition for Jerusalem.